Spanking children

[Rapscallion]

Let's hear it - who's for and who's against?

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

I vote for. Why? Because under some circumstances it can be quite motivational if not used excessively and if only used as a punishment not just to vent your anger. Never punish angry that just shows that you dont have control of the situation and as you are the parent you are supposed to be in control. Very hard to do and not always possible but it is still the goal one should strive for.

We use a three level punishment approach though here.
Level 1: A good talking to. Time out in the corner or other place to sit and think about the consequences of their actions. Generally used for minor infractions.

Level 2: Confined to their rooms. Loss of privelidges or items (no tv, no radio, etc..) and grounding. Used for repeated minor infractions or as an immediqate response to fighting (Seperate then determine reason for fighting and if any other punishments need be applyed.

Level 3: Physical punishment. Ie jumping jacks. run laps, stand in middle of the room with arms raised for a period of time or a swat across the bottom with the broad flat belt or open palm. This is usually for the most severe infractions or repeated infractions.

Generally my kids respond very well to this and while not little perfect angels at least are not total hellions either. Rather well adjusted and nominal kids.

[ShockQueen]

I vote a huge FOR here....

When I was younger, if my mom thought I was out of line, I got a spoon to the butt. It never broke bones, caused me to bleed, or anything else nasty. Yes, it stung, but you know what....it got the point across.

I HATE the busybodies that drive by you when you're disciplining your child saying "you know that's child abuse!" SHUT UP!! Maybe if more parents disciplined their children in more direct ways, we wouldn't have the rampant herds of flesh-waste roaming the land now!

You raise your kids your way, I'll raise mine mine, and we'll see which one learns more about how the world works in the end.

[ArenaBoy]

I'm for it also as it does straighten kids out. Spanking needs to be used sparingly because if one goes overboard it can be considered violence. There are times when a spanking isn't needed at all but something like a voice that can scare even the biggest SC. My dad is a perfect example, he can keep his temper when it's obvious he's being aggravated. If he's pushed far enough this is what you get and it's just one word: HEY!!!!!!!!!! times 10. One word silenced us. My mom used spanking and she used a spoon that still scares me to this day. If I screwed up and got a tanned hide, did I complain? Nope, I would never do that behavior again that got me in trouble in the first place.

[DesignFox]

I vote a huge FOR. I got my butt tanned once in awhile (with my dad's bear paws, no spoon or belt was necessary) and I don't feel I've turned out any the worse for it. One swat to the bottom or crack across the cheek and THAT behavior was never repeated.

Mostly, my parents didn't need to get to the point of grounding or giving a spanking...the raised voice or the sounding out of my full name was enough to get me to stop.

I think more parents need to give their kids a whoopin'. Maybe then, they wouldn't be such horrid little brats.

[AFPheonix]

Oh, it depends on the kid, methinks. I got swatted a few times, and all mom had to do was give me the Churchlady Look if I started to drift out of line, and that tended to be enough to get me right back to where I needed to be, if I wanted to not get a spankin'.


However, there are parents out there who have kids who just flat out don't care if they get spanked, and they keep going for that, rather than come up with something that will actually get the kid's attention.

Go for where it hurts if they deserve it, I say, and for some kids that would be the butt, for others it would be making their game console disappear for awhile.

[rahmota]

Exactyl AFP. Thats why I use spankin as an option off of a menu of Options. Its all part of motivating the kid to self correct their behavior before you have to punish them.

[stormtreader]

I also vote for, for the same reason as AFP.
It needs to be there as a last resort, same as prison is for adults.

[Luna]

I vote a huge FOR. I think if more children were spanked a lil bit more - society would be a much better and more respectful place. Nowadays if you even raise your voice to a child - they scream abuse and threaten to call local child endangerment agencies.

Every day I see children screaming at their parents. Cursing at them, hitting them. I want, I want, I want. The parents then buy them what they want. I would gotten a good crack across the butt and been punished for daring to raise my voice or my hands to my parents.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I vote a huge FOR. I think if more children were spanked a lil bit more - society would be a much better and more respectful place. Nowadays if you even raise your voice to a child - they scream abuse and threaten to call local child endangerment agencies.

Every day I see children screaming at their parents. Cursing at them, hitting them. I want, I want, I want. The parents then buy them what they want. I would gotten a good crack across the butt and been punished for daring to raise my voice or my hands to my parents.I couldn't agree more. People are all about giving children the same rights as adults... well, I say give kids the same rights as adults the day that kids have the same responsibilities as adults. :rolleyes: Since they don't, then they don't deserve any more rights than we had as kids. I once saw a little boy call his mum a bitch for not buying him sweets. I would have gotten the whacking of a lifetime had I even uttered that word in passing, let alone directed it at my mum.

[rahmota]

Discipline has definately gotten out of fashion. Thanks in part to a lot of the freaks who call children services at the slightest whim or scream abuse if you punish the child in any fashion. They sit and talk to their child like an adult and say stuff like "Now if you dont do that then we can go do this. Like the child has an option. I'm sorry in my book the adult has the power and the options. The child is a foot soldier in the army with the option of follow orders or be punished. Now those orders have to be reasonable and responsible and that is the duty and requirements of the parents but still.. And as the child gets older and understands right, wrong and gray ideas more then they can have more options and freedoms and power until by the time they are an adult they should be able to stand on their own feet and make their own choices and decisions.

[blas87]

FOR.

I was spanked as a child. The belt was a bit excessive, yes, I realize this. But every time I did something and got spanked, I NEVER did it again because I was so terrified of what kind of butt whacking I would get this time.

Did I turn out to be a serial killer? No. I learned to be an upstanding citizen and a decent young adult. I have no patience for these "parents" and their lack of parenting skills. And you wonder why so many little brats get away with everything these days.

[ditchdj]

I remember once on Sally Jesse a long time ago about "abusive children". They pointed out that the law against child abuse was meant to protect the children but now it's just harboring abusive children. I'm having discipline problems with my nine-year-old, talking back and disrepectful toward my wife and me. I'm about ready to let the goddamn system have her and just say, "If you're being mistreated so horribly by us just because we ask you to do something then go live in some foster homes and never hear from us and see how much "better" life will be for you!" That's the only way some kids are gonna find out.

I remember one time a woman was charged with assault because her 16-year-old daughter called her a "fucking bitch" during an argument and her mother slapped her in the mouth. During the trial her lawyer argued that if he called his mother that not only would his mother smack him but his brothers would probably want a crack at him too. The jury refused to convict her and found her not guilty.

[AFPheonix]

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=178173

Scary.

[BusBus]

FOR!

I also got spanked when I was a child. Nothing scared me more than being spanked. There are some responsibilities associated with using that type of punishment (i.e. don't bruise or break the kid). A friend of mine's father is bipolar, so when she was younger, her mother was responsible for the spanking, because he did not want his moods to effect the punishments.

[FormerCallingCardRep]

My Grandmother told me that when she was a little girl her Mother would tell her that in 24 hours she would be punished for what she did. She said the wait was always worse then the punishment. My Great-Grandma had a bad temper and it allowed her to calm down before she disciplined her children.

[DesignFox]

that article scares me. Actually, most things about society scare me anymore. The thing holding me back from having children the most is the state of the world I'd bring them into... :(

[Boozy]

I must be the small, sole voice of dissent here.
(Please, be gentle. ;) )

I've always believed that violence begets more violence. A lifetime of observation has bore me out.
Spanking children teaches them that it is okay to hit, that violence solves problems, and that violence "teaches a lesson".
I'll admit - maybe I just don't get it. I don't understand how spanking a child teaches them anything. If the goal is to spank hard enough to hurt, and therefore the pain is the consequence to their actions, then you're really just conditioning a pain response, like you would in a dog. Is that the point? If so, that's pretty awful. And if you DON'T spank hard enough to physically hurt, then what's the point at all? Where's the consequence to the child?
I'm not being sarcastic here, either. Seriously, I don't understand the thought process behind spanking, and what parents think its supposed to do for their child. Someone explain it to me.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Children are violent anyway, anyone who thinks that kids can be taught it is naive. My parents used spanking as a last resort punishment, but they didn't use it til we were at least 2. I know someone who bit her baby sister when she was about 2 years old. Her parents hadn't laid a finger on her then, yet, she still was violent towards her baby sister cuz she was jealous of not being the baby any more.

Small kids don't understand reasoning; so it's not going to work on them. They understand pain and violence and embarrassment tho; so that works. My older brother was for example given a smack cuz he pinched me when I was little. The smack taught him that it hurts when you give out hurt, so he learned a lesson there.

Smacking would be bad if you're talking about it being the only punishment, or if the parents are beating the hell out of their kids, but a law against it wouldn't stop those parents. Sure, different methods work for different kids, but why bash a method that works for some people even if it doesn't work for you? Some people praise "time out" to the skies, but it wouldn't have worked for me, cuz I'm able to go off into my own little world so even without books I'd just do that. I used to actually go off alone and sit in a corner alone off my own batt for peace and quiet, so a time out wouldn't punish me at all.

[anriana]

Serious necro yay.

I was spanked as a child. I am also an adult who is heavily into BDSM. I don't know if those two are related or not, but I am probably going to have psychological issues over whether or not they are for my entire adult life.


I don't agree with spanking a child on the bottom, especially naked or on the undergarments. Most of the posters here have said they spank/were spanked on the bum; why? Other cultures punish children on the calves, the upper back, or the hand, why do Americans prefer the area right next to the genitalia? Calves are just as fleshy and knuckles hurt more.


The original article is gone so I don't know how widespread or vague this ban was, but I would fully support a law banning spanking children on their bum.

[Boozy]

I was also spanked periodically when I was a kid, as were my siblings. Everyone did it, and it wasn't considered controversial at all.

My mother tells me that, in retrospect, it was pointless and she wouldn't do it again. My youngest sister was never spanked.

My mother would parent using looks, words, and sheer force of will. The only times she ever resorted to spanking was when she was tired, worn down, and lost it. That's not a good attitude to have when disciplining children. If you choose to spank, you've got to be in control of the situation.

We never settled down and behaved until my mother got control of herself and the situation, and realized that "Oh shit - Mom means business." By the time my mother had reached that point, spanking wasn't needed.

I think a lot of people spank their kids because they don't know what else to do. There are other options. They may not be as convenient, but then neither are children. It's called the toughest job in the world for a reason.

[tropicsgoddess]

I'm all for spanking, as long as it's not to a point where it's downright abusive.

[miffed]

Spanking children teaches them that it is okay to hit, that violence solves problems, and that violence "teaches a lesson".

Not if they're being spanked because they hit their siblings. I was spanked as a kid and never at any point thought that because my parents spanked me, violence was ok. Spanking taught me that violence was wrong.

I never really considered spanking to be violent or to be even near the same context as beating someone up. My parents always did it in a loving and calm attitude, so it never seemed like an act of violence.

Obviously I'm for.

[Boozy]

I just really feel that spanking is completely unnecessary. I think a lot of people say they are "for" spanking children, when what they really mean is that they are for disciplining children, and "spanking" and "discipline" are tightly linked in many people's minds.

My father never once spanked us, and he was a very strict disciplinarian, far more so that my mother. We would never cross him. There are hundreds of ways to instill respect for authority, respect for others, and teach right from wrong.

Why hit children to achieve that goal?

[Zyanya]

Why hit children to achieve that goal?

Because all children are different and there is no one solution to child care. For some children, a stern look is enough. For some, grounding them from a particular activity (and the activities in question vary wildly as well) works. For others, being made to do extra activities they find unpleasant is the way to go. For still others, nothing is worse than a lecture explaining why what you did was wrong.

And for others, a quick swat is the most effective if not the only way.

People are all different. Amazing, isn't it?


And I've often found that when people say 'my parent's never hit me', they are usually more often saying 'I don't really remember being spanked'. My friend B swears her mother never hit her in debates like this. I talked to her mother once, and her mother claims B's arse was black and blue pretty constantly between ages 4 and 6 due to nothing else working until 'B developed the ability to think more than 10 seconds into the future'.

[iradney]

Count me as a BIG FAT FOR

I was spanked as a child. But not for every infraction. If it was a little thing (eg not doing one of my chores) then I would get a talking to, or my pocket money docked. If it was a big thing (biting my sister, being rude to my parents) then it would be grounding or spanking. Ofc, the first (and last) time I bit my sister, she bit back. Harder :) I learnt my lesson.

Also, something that worked with the sliding rule of punishment, was the 3 strikes you're out. If I do something naughty once, I'm warned. If I do the SAME thing again, I'm warned and given punishment like washing cars, no tv etc. The third time shows that I'm being naughty on purpose (this is when I was about 5/6 - very advanced for my age, at 6 I was reading at Grade 9 level), so I would get a hiding.

The hiding was always administered with a flat, bare hand. My parents used a slipper once, but that's because I set fire to something and nearly burnt down the house. I would get 4 - 5 whacks on the thighs and bottom, and that would be it.

When I got older, I was too old for hidings (teens). Then they started The Lecture. Literally TWO HOURS of lecturing. I would've given anything for a hiding instead, it was over quickly!

[DesignFox]

The original article is gone so I don't know how widespread or vague this ban was, but I would fully support a law banning spanking children on their bum.

The bum is the hugest muscle in your body. It isn't likely to cause injury getting whacked there, and doesn't leave publicly visible bruises...if any.

I guess that's why kids get smacked on the bum, and I think it seems to be the least cruel.

A rap across the knuckles would be damn painful...
:shrug:

At least I never got the belt or the spoon or the "paddle" like some kids used to...but if I was fresh, or talked back, I got a swat across the mouth.

I think I've already made it clear that I don't support such bans. Discipline should be different depending on the child and what the parent feels is appropriate. As long as it isn't flat out abusive (constantly leaving marks, hurting the child to the point of injury, emotional abuse, etc. etc.) parents should be allowed to discipline their children as they see fit. It is each individuals' responsibility to do what works for their families...and unless they see obvious signs of abuse, to keep their noses out of everyone else's business.

[Norton]

When I got older, I was too old for hidings (teens). Then they started The Lecture. Literally TWO HOURS of lecturing. I would've given anything for a hiding instead, it was over quickly!


Haha, I understand completely! When my age hit the double-digits, I convinced my parents I was too old to be spanked. After a few years of dealing with my mother's incessant rambling lectures, I dearly wished she would've gone back to spanking me.

Rarely did it hurt when I got spanked (though I'd cry bloody murder). Only my pride was really injured. It's so embarrassing to be removed from a social situation to go get a spanking (when you're a child. Some grownups get a kick out of it :D). In my old church, whenever a child would act up, all eyes would focus on the kid. The embarrassed mother would whisk the child off to the bathroom or outside. Some kids simply needed a talking-to or some fresh air, while others (like me) wouldn't calm down without being spanked. We all learned to behave in church, though. Some kids never even needed to be removed, because they saw how their peers fared after being disruptive.

Being raised like that meant that my parents could take me out in public while I was still in grade school, without worrying about me throwing temper tantrums and raising hell. People often commented how polite and patient I was even in boring situations.

I agree that spanking may not be necessary or right for every kid, but I also don't think the right to spank should be taken away from all parents. There is definitely a difference between a little physical discipline and abuse. It's a parent's job to not cross that line.

[crazylegs]

I'm for, but should I ever have to do that I will use my own hand, I WILL NOT use a weapon (belt/spoon/slipper) against a child.

[BlaqueKatt]

Its all part of motivating the kid to self correct their behavior before you have to punish them.

And that is the very definition of the word Discipline

Short version from dictionary.com(of the 14 entries)

1. training to act in accordance with rules; drill: military discipline.
2. activity, exercise, or a regimen that develops or improves a skill; training: A daily stint at the typewriter is excellent discipline for a writer.
3. punishment inflicted by way of correction and training.

[Slytovhand]

Boozy... you are not alone :D (sorry it took so long, I didn't see this one earlier).

While I get where everyone else is coming from, there is one thing that I think needs to be said - most parents have no idea on how to actual parent. They just go with a 'ok - let's try this and see what happens', and most of the time, it'll be either what happened to them ("Cos I got a good spanking, and there's nothing wrong with me"), or they go the other extreme and try to do the opposite.

The 'rules' are merely what those individuals (parents) decide they want to impose, and for the most part, are incredibly selfish (that is, not designed to make the child a better person, but to make them into little clones... and hope for the best).

Rahmota... I loved your ideas that you posted up on the first page :D

I think that parents look at their kids and see them as kids - not as human beings, and certainly not as future adults.

The same goes for the way 'kids' are spoken to in general. You speak to a child as a child, and they'll act like a child. You speak to them as an equal, and you'll see a massive difference in them.

Discipline can be done in many ways - and 'violence' or spanking should almost never come into it.

(for the record - I don't once recall my parents 'disciplining' me - taking out their anger, frustration, disappointment, vengeance - yes... but nothing I would call 'discipline'. After all, there was no 'justification' expressed - only a 'do as I tell you'... good way to raise a robot to society, and remove self-empowerment).

Slyt

[Zyanya]

Those against spanking...


How many children do you have?

[Slytovhand]

Those against spanking...


How many children do you have?

I choose to have none.

Of course, that doesn't in anyway deny me a right to an opinion, nor that the opinion might be valid :D

I haven't been the victim or relative of a murder either, yet I can have an opinion on the death penalty....


Slyt

[Zyanya]

Of course, that doesn't in anyway deny me a right to an opinion, nor that the opinion might be valid :D

Nontheless, it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.

You can have the opinion that you shouldn't wear a wetsuit while water-skiing on Lake Superior all you want. Let's see what happens when you actually go for a swim there.

[IDrinkaRum]

I was spanked whilst a child. I remember when I was 5, I was curled up in a chair with my father standing over me with his belt in his hand. I've been hit with fly swatters, the hand, the belt, a hair brush, and a wire clothing hanger.

The only time I spank my daughter is if she lets go of my hand and runs away from me in either the grocery store or runs across the street and I'm yelling at her to stop. Once I catch her, one swat on the butt and a stern talking to. (Though she might not understand the talking to, she understands the swat and the fact that mommy is mad).

[miffed]

Why hit children to achieve that goal?

Because it achieves that goal. Sure there's plenty other methods of discipline, but what works for some doesn't work for all (and yeah spanking doesn't work for all, but that doesn't mean then no one should use it). My parents were good at utilizing spanking, not so much on grounding and tough looks since those didn't bother me. But the swats on the butt spoke loud and clear.



My parents continued spanking us pretty much up until our mid-teens, and it was just as, if not more effective than when we were kids. It's pretty embarrassing being punished as if you were small child. :o

[crazylegs]

Those against spanking...


How many children do you have?

I also have no children yet am for it, anyone is entitled to an opinion on a matter irrespective of experience or training.

Even thoses with years of experience of dealing with children have the wrong opinion on how to care for said children

(Warning, may be disturbing for some)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7370897.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7439666.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/7421428.stm

[MystyGlyttyr]

I'm for it. I NEEDED it when I was little. Why? Because by the age of FIVE, I was already stealing, attacking people, and committing arson. I was a mean, vicious little child, and I needed to be "trained" rather than taught. Teaching just didn't work for some reason, I guess I just didn't have any reason to respect my parents by then. Physical pain was the only thing that got through. I probably wasn't a typical case, though, as most things about me are...not typical.

Later on, though, my parents stopped spanking and went to lecturing and guilt trips that made me wish they'd just hit me and get it over with. LOL

So far as my nieces and nephew, I don't know. Haven't thought that far ahead yet. I hope I don't have to figure it out, but I'm sure the situation will come up sooner or later...

[Zyanya]

I also have no children yet am for it, anyone is entitled to an opinion on a matter irrespective of experience or training.

Even thoses with years of experience of dealing with children have the wrong opinion on how to care for said children

(Warning, may be disturbing for some)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7370897.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/7439666.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/jersey/7421428.stm

Okay, would those opposed to spanking PLEASE learn the difference between a spanking and a beating? These kinds of conversations would go so much smoother that way. Not a single solitary soul here is justifying beating your kids.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

[AFPheonix]

Well then. Anyone who posts political opinions without actually having spent time in Congress or Parlaiment doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on the war without working in the military or in the Pentagon doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on gun control who doesn't own a gun doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on abortion without a functional uterus doesn't have a worthwhile opinion, according to you.

They're allowed their opinion, especially since at one point WE WERE ALL CHILDREN OURSELVES and experienced discipline of some sort. Yay for free speech and all.

[Greenday]

Anyone who has an opinion on the war without working in the military or in the Pentagon doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Woohoo! I win! My military opinions are valid! Mwahahahaha!

Seriously though, you don't have to have any experience with spanking to have a valid opinion on it.

[crazylegs]

Okay, would those opposed to spanking PLEASE learn the difference between a spanking and a beating?

I am *for* spanking, yet have no children...

What I am trying to say is that your opinion is valid regardless of whether or not you have children

I have an opinion on abortion yet cannot bear children

I have an opinion on the use of the rainforests yet have never been there

I have an opinion on smoking yet I do not so

I have an opinion on drugs yet I do not partake in them.

Do my opinions in those areas not count for those reasons?

[Dreamstalker]

I'm for spanking, if done properly and not as a catchall solution. I was swatted a couple times as a pup...I was an odd child and sometimes talking didn't work or I would quickly find the loopholes in almost any directive. I was never spanked in public (The Look was a very effective substitute).

Both of my grandfathers were ex-military, so possibly just the thought of what could hypothetically (but never did) happen was a great deterrent. Yes, I would sometimes smart off to my maternal grandfather, but he knew I was just playing around.

Some kids, talking doesn't work and you need to do something that the kid will get through their skull.

[powerboy]

I have no children, that I am aware off. But I am for it. If the child acts up, then they should get a spanking. I was spanked once by one of my grandparents. And you know what, I learned my lesson. I was a good son and so is my brother.

I believe that it should be a few swats on the fannie. and also it depends on what the child did. Now if the child asked a question and the child got a beat down for it. Then yeah, that would be abuse.

[CancelMyService]

I've seen firsthand the difference between spanking/disciplining a child and not. A certain member of my family has two kids, the older kid was disciplined by his father, and the younger was not due to his parents getting a divorce. The older kid has a wife and three kids, and a successful career while the younger kid still lives at home (he's 25 now), has no job, and has no motivation to get a job since mommy still babies him.

I know it's not scientific research, but having known both guys for over 10 years it's very clear that the younger son is the way he is because his mother never put any discipline into him.

My wife works in a shelter for teenage boys and pretty much all the kids there (except the ones who have mental issues) are there because there was no discipline at home. These are the so called "bad kids" and she's said more than once that all these kids needed was a smack on the ass when they were younger and they probably wouldn't be at her shelter now.

Also, lack of discipline is the main cause people behave in that lovely SC manner we all come to know and love. How many times have you been in public and heard kids talking back to their parents in tones that would have got us smacked by our parents? Or just seen kids out of control in general to the point where you wonder what's wrong with the parents? Lack of discipline leads to the "my widdle pwecious" syndrome where kids are led to believe they can do no wrong, which leads to obnoxious jerk adults that we end up having to face at CS jobs.

[anriana]

I've seen firsthand the difference between spanking/disciplining a child and not. A certain member of my family has two kids, the older kid was disciplined by his father, and the younger was not due to his parents getting a divorce. The older kid has a wife and three kids, and a successful career while the younger kid still lives at home (he's 25 now), has no job, and has no motivation to get a job since mommy still babies him.

I know it's not scientific research, but having known both guys for over 10 years it's very clear that the younger son is the way he is because his mother never put any discipline into him.

My wife works in a shelter for teenage boys and pretty much all the kids there (except the ones who have mental issues) are there because there was no discipline at home. These are the so called "bad kids" and she's said more than once that all these kids needed was a smack on the ass when they were younger and they probably wouldn't be at her shelter now.

Also, lack of discipline is the main cause people behave in that lovely SC manner we all come to know and love. How many times have you been in public and heard kids talking back to their parents in tones that would have got us smacked by our parents? Or just seen kids out of control in general to the point where you wonder what's wrong with the parents? Lack of discipline leads to the "my widdle pwecious" syndrome where kids are led to believe they can do no wrong, which leads to obnoxious jerk adults that we end up having to face at CS jobs.

And I can write many, many examples of children who were spanked and turned out poorly or who were not and turned out fine.


As far as whether or not I have children, how is that relevant? I was a child myself five or six years ago and my brother is still a child in my parents' eyes. I was in a school that administered corporal punishment eight years ago. Is only the opinion of a spanker relevant here?

A rap across the knuckles would be damn painful...


Is that not the point?


but if I was fresh, or talked back, I got a swat across the mouth.

That is an incredibly dangerous place to smack, especially with an adult-sized hand on a child-sized face.

[AFPheonix]

It has its place in a parent's toolbox. Some kids may need it, some may not. Some may be motivated better in other ways, some may need spanking as a motivation at times. Personally, I really REALLY didn't like getting swatted so I was mostly well behaved to avoid getting it. Well, that and Mom was good at instilling a strong sense of guilt into all of us :p
As long as it's not physically harmful, it's fine.

[Zyanya]

Well then. Anyone who posts political opinions without actually having spent time in Congress or Parlaiment doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on the war without working in the military or in the Pentagon doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on gun control who doesn't own a gun doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on abortion without a functional uterus doesn't have a worthwhile opinion, according to you.

Ladies and gentlemen, the above is what is known as a 'strawman'.

See, it is easy to do research and gain experience. If you haven't ever had responsibility for children though, then you lack any pertinent knowledge. Just like if all you know about the military is what a certain talk radio stations says, your opinion on that is pretty worthless as well.

We all remember childhood in funny ways. I cited an example of such earlier.

But when someone is saying something ridiculous like 'spanking is abusive and never works', it's generally the same inexperience that would lead someone to saying something ridiculous like 'people join the military because they get a hard-on at the thought of killing someone' or 'abortions are fun and some women have them 4 times a year'. It's just incredibly toooooooo obvious the person has no idea what they are talking about and thus their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

[DesignFox]

That is an incredibly dangerous place to smack, especially with an adult-sized hand on a child-sized face.

meh. My parents didn't do that when I was a toddler. That was when I got older. Should have been clearer, I guess.

My point was that a smack with a ruler on the knuckles seems more damaging than a smack on the butt. On a little kid you run less risk of breaking something by smacking them on the fanny.

It's just my opinion on WHY things are done that way.

[protege]

Also, lack of discipline is the main cause people behave in that lovely SC manner we all come to know and love. How many times have you been in public and heard kids talking back to their parents in tones that would have got us smacked by our parents? Or just seen kids out of control in general to the point where you wonder what's wrong with the parents? Lack of discipline leads to the "my widdle pwecious" syndrome where kids are led to believe they can do no wrong, which leads to obnoxious jerk adults that we end up having to face at CS jobs.

I was spanked when I was a kid, and I turned out fine :)

I've talked about my similarly-aged cousin before on CS. When she was much younger, her parents let her do whatever she wanted, and couldn't understand why she was such a spoiled bitch. They bought her silence with all sorts of shiny things.

She was only a bitch to me once. Why? Simple, I smacked the shit out of her when we were 4 or 5. I told her not to hit me, she did...and I clocked her in the face as hard as I could. Haven't had a problem with her since--she's abrasive to everyone else *but* me. Can't imagine why... :D

[AFPheonix]

Ladies and gentlemen, the above is what is known as a 'strawman'.

See, it is easy to do research and gain experience. If you haven't ever had responsibility for children though, then you lack any pertinent knowledge. Just like if all you know about the military is what a certain talk radio stations says, your opinion on that is pretty worthless as well.

We all remember childhood in funny ways. I cited an example of such earlier.

But when someone is saying something ridiculous like 'spanking is abusive and never works', it's generally the same inexperience that would lead someone to saying something ridiculous like 'people join the military because they get a hard-on at the thought of killing someone' or 'abortions are fun and some women have them 4 times a year'. It's just incredibly toooooooo obvious the person has no idea what they are talking about and thus their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

And yet your assertation that only someone who has borne a child can have a valid opinion on spanking is not a strawman? I would beg to differ. If you've noticed, I point out the ludicrousness of some statements by drawing parallels to other situations. Just because they don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that they don't get to hold that opinion. Stick with making your case in a way that makes sense rather than denigrating what other people have to say.

[Zyanya]

And yet your assertation that only someone who has borne a child can have a valid opinion on spanking is not a strawman? I would beg to differ. If you've noticed, I point out the ludicrousness of some statements by drawing parallels to other situations. Just because they don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that they don't get to hold that opinion. Stick with making your case in a way that makes sense rather than denigrating what other people have to say.

Hint - Try reading my posts.

This being what I actually said -

Nontheless, it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.

Not 'if you have no children you should shut the f up.', as you seem to think I said.

[the_std]

You are entitled to your opinion. However, an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

That's something else you said. But everyone on this board has experience with this topic, seeing as how they were all raised somehow and have experience with being disciplined.

Saying that someone's opinions aren't worth very much is what people are objecting to. No one said you told these people to shut the fuck up.

Although, my opinion is that every opinion has validity, because we all come from different experiences and every issue needs to be seen from as many sides as possible. Especially on this topic. There are so many different methods of discipline that non-parents can see and interact with discipline all the time, therefore rendering their opinions valid.

[CancelMyService]

Opinions are all well and good but (and for the record I'm not a parent either) I would have to think once you have kids and you're responsible for raising them to behave properly, you might come to rethink your views when it becomes a 24/7 job.

Not to say that they *definately* would change, but certainly the possiblity is there.

[the_std]

Well, yes. Being a parent will change an individual's views, there's no doubt about that possibility. But not being a parent shouldn't automatically render their opinions invalid, or "not worth much".

[Amethyst Hunter]

But not being a parent shouldn't automatically render their opinions invalid, or "not worth much".

Agreed. You don't have to be a parent to know that there are just certain things one does not do to raise a child properly (i.e., feeding them crap food 24/7, giving them a steady diet of TV instead of getting them to read, etc.). (And yes, for the record, I'm not a parent.)

I support spanking - within obvious reason. There is a world of difference between spanking that says "I TOLD you not to do X and you did it anyway!" and spanking that's just plain all-out abusive beating.

My parents spanked both me and my brother when we did stuff we were explicitly told not to do, and we both turned out just fine (Excepting my mental illnesses, but that's a whole 'nother bag of worms and I guarantee you the spankings had nothing to do with it). If anything, this is one of the many, many reasons why I myself do not ever want kids; I fly off the handle VERY easily at even slight provocations and I fear that I would easily cross that line from acceptable spanking to outright abuse. I refuse to subject an innocent child to that kind of mood swinging.

Now, if you wanna discuss my lifelong aversion/hatred of wooden spoons, you might be on to something... ;)

[AFPheonix]

Hint - Try reading my posts.

This being what I actually said -



Not 'if you have no children you should shut the f up.', as you seem to think I said.

Did I say that you said that? Please point out where I said or even thought that. The_STD quoted the line you stated that I refuted.

[Slytovhand]

Perhaps this term 'spank' needs to be defined. While there is no specific definition to it here in this thread, we're free to interpret it as much as we want... into any direction. Is there a difference between a 'spanking' and a 'slap' (as in on the wrist).

For my part (other than my aforementioned), it comes down to 'parenting' as a whole and that also includes the whole idea of creating a person.. a human being with strength, courage, wisdom, intelligence, self-empowerment, compassion etc etc.

I don't see that spanking comes into that.

Neither does molly-coddling. (is that a standard word out there?? Cos I was thinking that 'fanny' has a slightly different meaning in some parts of the world as well :p)

As for validity of opinions :D How many of us have politicians who actually know anything about what they're in charge of? Does your treasurer or finance minister have a degree in
Accounting or Economics? And they look after the country!!


Slyt

[protege]

My parents spanked both me and my brother when we did stuff we were explicitly told not to do, and we both turned out just fine

Been there, done that. My mother wasn't afraid to spank us if we misbehaved and/or mouthed off to her. She managed to break several yardsticks in the process. Yes it hurt like hell, no it didn't leave marks. Of course 20-25 years ago, people tended to mind their own damn business about that ;) There's a big difference between spanking and outright abuse. My mother would spank us just once to make her point. Usually, that was all that was necessary. My brothers though...not so much :p Still, we turned out fine. Odd, because my mother always said that my younger brother wouldn't see his way past 5. Troublesome bastard, he is.

...and it's not just kids that got spanked. Grandma used to hit Kitty with the broom if he scratched her. Not hard, just enough to startle him. I never had to do that, a swat on the tail, and a firm "BAD KITTY!" did the trick. Eventually though, just calling him a "bad kitty" was enough. He seemed to hate being called a "bad kitty" and usually behaved himself. Kitty got plenty of praise when he'd get mice, and was constantly being told he was a "nice, good kitty."

[Zyanya]

Saying that someone's opinions aren't worth very much

I'm sorry, which of these facts did you have a problem with me stating?

1) People who have experience in the matter and have already achieved good results have more valid opinions
2) People often remember their childhoods as they choose to, not how they necessarily happened.

Let's look at basic scientific method, shall we?

When you have a bit of data, you can form a hypothesis. A hypothesis is simply an opinion on what you feel the result should be.

Now, if you actually test this hypothesis and are proven correct, it becomes what is known as a theory.

A theory is worth more than a hypothesis because it is tested and thus more likely to be true.

Therefore the opinion of someone who has actual experience in the matter and thus is offering a theory is more valid than the opinion of someone who has just thought about it and made some casual observations and thus has a hypothesis.


Thus, as I said earlier - an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

And - it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.

[AFPheonix]

So then please explain why that particular line of reasoning is valid to you, but the other instances in which I applied the same reasoning are all of a sudden strawmen.

[Slytovhand]

Aaarghhh... I only thought of this tonight, and it was pretty obvious!

Firstly, the line of argument that we're heading towards OT, should really be in the 'Bad Arguments' thread, cos that's what's really going on here.

But, since we're already on here, I'll throw it in here...

'Scientific Method'... is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

There is a whole stack of different ways a question can be asked, as in what is implied.

Is it a question relating to directions or method? As in, "How do you change a lightbulb?" - follow the instrucitons in order).

Questions of personal preference - "Do you prefer chocolate or vanilla?"

Questions of imperative - "Which is faster, V6 or V8?"

And, of course, questions of morality - "Is the death penalty good for society?". These wonderful little buggers have the added presumption built in somewhere - that either morals are Absolute (and thus there is a definite - even if unknown - correct or incorrect answer), or they are Relative (no definite correct or incorrect - it all depends and can change relevant to time, culture, society, etc).


This here question (of spanking children) comes to us from either the moralistic, the personal preferance or the imperative line. The best you can hope for as far as previous posts, is "Is spanking an effective method for disciplining children?". If you even try to go with 'scientific method' for arguing for or against, you completely lose any type of control subjects. So there is only personal and anecdotal experience to come into play...which hardly counts given the 6 billion people on the planet to compare to your 2,3 or even 20 people that you've known. Let alone having any idea on how that person would have turned out anyway...

If it's moralistic - well, it has no relevance at all. And all opinions are valid (although, those who have studied morals might be slightly more of an authority - but only because they've looked at the question more in depth).

Personal preference then? Hey - no-one is more of an authority on what I want than me... so my opinion is valid :D

(did I forget anything??)


Slyt

[Zyanya]

So then please explain why that particular line of reasoning is valid to you, but the other instances in which I applied the same reasoning are all of a sudden strawmen.

Did. Read.

[AFPheonix]

No, you're explanation was more along the lines of "if your opinion is not the 'right' opinion, then it's not valid." You seem to be ok with people who have no experience in a particular field yet still agree with you.

Look, I don't have a problem with spanking. Some people do and seem to bring up children perfectly fine without it. There's also parents who do or don't spank and their kids are hellions. In which case, I would think that perhaps it's not the spanking or lack of it that is at fault, it's the ability of the parent to outwit the child.

There really is more than one way to skin a cat.

[crazylegs]

A theory is worth more than a hypothesis because it is tested and thus more likely to be true.

Therefore the opinion of someone who has actual experience in the matter and thus is offering a theory is more valid than the opinion of someone who has just thought about it and made some casual observations and thus has a hypothesis.


Thus, as I said earlier - an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

And - it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.

A theory is only as such until such time as it is disproven, I have given three examples (very high publicity ones) where their opinion on childcare is not valid yet they are parents.

[Zyanya]

A theory is only as such until such time as it is disproven, I have given three examples (very high publicity ones) where their opinion on childcare is not valid yet they are parents.

Does that actually change what I said?

In the cases you cited, their opinions are completely worthless because they aren't being responsible for a child. The exact opposite, in fact, which is why their activities showed up in the news.

You seem to be ok with people who have no experience in a particular field yet still agree with you.

You seem to be adept at making things up.

[AFPheonix]

You didn't seem to have a problem with the people who don't have kids yet are ok with spanking. Am I making that up?

[crazylegs]

In the cases you cited, their opinions are completely worthless because they aren't being responsible for a child.

They were responsible for the child(ren), which is why they were able to act how they did, random laymen wouldn't have been able to abuse the authority and trust.

The people cited all *thought* that what they were doing was right, or proper; it was their opinion. Although we (as a society as a whole) can see that what they were doing was wrong they could not.

They have an opinion and (in theory) could debate about the rights and wrongs of it, to write off others opinions because they do not fit into narrow bands is dangerous.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Also, everyone was at some point a child, so can state how their parents discliplined them, and whether or not it had any effect on them.

My parents smacked me and my brothers til we became of an age where losing privileges or being grounded had a better effect. The smacking was a very last resort, and only meted out when necessary; however, my brothers and I all had the greatest of respect for our parents; something which a lot of kids don't seem to have. It's that, I think, that's the difference between a well behaved child and a little demon spawn.

[Zyanya]

You didn't seem to have a problem with the people who don't have kids yet are ok with spanking. Am I making that up?.

Yes. However, I am not going to argue with the people who don't have children and are okay with spanking because there is no reason for me to do so. They managed to pick the correct hypothesis, any experience they gain will only support it.

They were responsible for the child(ren), which is why they were able to act how they did, random laymen wouldn't have been able to abuse the authority and trust.

No, they were supposed to be responsible for the wellbeing of the children and failed in that responsibility. Just like a junkie who lets her kids run wild in the street isn't being responsible for them, even though she should be.

And learn the difference between a spanking and a beating. It's on par with the difference between telling your kid 'no, you can't have a candy bar' and starving the kid to death.

[CancelMyService]

One thing that I've noticed every time a spanking debate pops up on any board I've ever been to: The anti-spanking crowd will almost always descend to the "any physical contact with a child is a horrible abuse on par with murder" argument that kind of undermines any valid points they may have. It's like a version of Godwin's Law, only with "OMG ABUSE" instead of Hitler.

The reason it bothers me is the mindset that any kind of spanking equals abuse is the main reason we have the "demon spawn kids threatening to call child services when parents threaten to discipline" attitude.

I mean, yes, there are obviously cases of child abuse that are horrible, but I don't think any reasonable person would consider the rare spanking or even a slap in the mouth for backtalk as an abusive situation.

[crazylegs]

And learn the difference between a spanking and a beating. It's on par with the difference between telling your kid 'no, you can't have a candy bar' and starving the kid to death.

Having removed children under a Police Protection Order due to physical abuse I am fully aware of the difference thank you.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I mean, yes, there are obviously cases of child abuse that are horrible, but I don't think any reasonable person would consider the rare spanking or even a slap in the mouth for backtalk as an abusive situation.

Especially since any parents who are going to beat their kids senseless will do so regardless of laws put in place about smacking. All those laws do is make sure that parents who are just going to deal out clips around the ear or smacks on the legs get penalised. Oh dear, my dad gave me a smack when I was seven cuz I pushed my little brother down the stairs... I should be traumatised for life! :rolleyes:

[Zyanya]

Having removed children under a Police Protection Order due to physical abuse I am fully aware of the difference thank you.

Obviously not, as you insist on bringing them up together, such as bringing up horrific cases of abuse in a thread about spanking. And you tried to justify horrible abuse by comparing it to spanking with 'but the parents there thought it was okay'.

Learn the difference. Or get out of the debate until you do, cause if you think my smacking my son's hand is anywhere comparable to what these people did to their children I've got no time or respect for you.

[the_std]

Crazylegs has said, more than once, that he SUPPORTS spanking. He is in favour of spanking has a disciplinary method.

He's trying to point out that there are other opinions out there besides yours, and that other opinions besides yours or the ones you deem worthy are valid.

Just because someone's a shitty parent doesn't make them any less of a parent. Just like a shitty teacher is still a teacher.

[AFPheonix]

Even beyond being a shitty parent or not, there's still more than one way to go around things. Saying that all parents should spank is as wrong as saying no parents should spank.
Each parent should be able to do whatever is necessary and right and humane to enforce discipline. A simple spanking falls in those boundaries. So does not spanking and using another method to motivate the child. I know quite a few kids who are not motivated by a pain response, and the parent has to outwit their kid and think of another way.

[Zyanya]

He's trying to point out that there are other opinions out there besides yours, and that other opinions besides yours or the ones you deem worthy are valid.

Sorry, but I find those who bring horrific child abuse cases into a thread about spanking about on the same level as those that bring bestiality into a thread about gay marriage.

[the_std]

The point made by the child abuse cases is that some people think that this is okay as a form of punishment. Oh, yeah, they probably have other motives too, but there are people out there that think this abuse is an effective way to punish their kid.

That is their opinion, and it's relevant to the subject.

[Zyanya]

The point made by the child abuse cases is that some people think that this is okay as a form of punishment. Oh, yeah, they probably have other motives too, but there are people out there that think this abuse is an effective way to punish their kid.

The point made is that some people get hard-ons at the thought of banging a goat and think that sort of 'deviant' activity is okay.

It's their opinion, but as it is a wholly different action undertaken by sick, twisted individuals and not what we are discussing here, it's not relevant to the discussion.

Thus, child abuse should not be brought into a conversation about spanking anymore than bestiality, molestation, and incest should be brought into a conversation about gay marriage. This is the last time I will say this.

[Boozy]

I think crazylegs introduced those stories of abuse for a specific reason; we were under the impression that you felt that parents have a more valid opinion on the subject than non-parents. crazylegs was simply pointing out that just because someone has children doesn't mean they have better judgment than those who don't.

You've refuted that point, I believe.

I don't see where anyone has actually compared spanking to child abuse; I only see where you have inferred that. crazylegs is actually for spanking.

I'm one of the few who's against it, but even I don't think it's abusive. I don't plan to spank my children, but I'm not going to sit in judgment of others who do.

[crazylegs]

I think crazylegs introduced those stories of abuse for a specific reason; we were under the impression that you felt that parents have a more valid opinion on the subject than non-parents. crazylegs was simply pointing out that just because someone has children doesn't mean they have better judgment than those who don't.

You've refuted that point, I believe.

I don't see where anyone has actually compared spanking to child abuse; I only see where you have inferred that. crazylegs is actually for spanking.

Quoted for the simple reason that it is entirely correct however (due to my own fault) I hadn't seen the part where you refuted the point.

[Boozy]

Quoted for the simple reason that it is entirely correct however (due to my own fault) I hadn't seen the part where you refuted the point.

Oops - you're right, crazylegs. I should have said that Zyanya has addressed that point. I don't think it's necessarily been refuted either.

[Zyanya]

we were under the impression that you felt that parents have a more valid opinion on the subject than non-parents.

I am, and they are.

However, part of being a parent is being responsible for the wellbeing of a child.

Those people are not parents. Breeders is a better term.