Peta

[Saydrah]

Since this got brought up on CS and promptly locked:

I personally think people throw the baby out with the bathwater the minute PETA gets a mention anywhere. PETA is a huge organization and, granted, I disagree wtih 99% of what they do; but with an organization that large, with so many employees and volunteers, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. In PETA's case, often the left hand is doing some good in the world while the right hand is off on its soapbox demanding that the entire world become vegan, effective immediately.

PETA gets more hate, venom, and vitriol spewed at it than any organization I can think of, Republican Party notwithstanding. And much of it is deserved. BUT statements like "If it's on PETA's site I won't look" or "I would NEVER support a cause PETA's behind" and "It must be lies, PETA did it," or "All PETA's videos are faked" are narrow-minded and, sadly, often come from animal lovers who don't realize by ignoring everything PETA does they are damaging some important causes for animals.

One thing PETA does that I appreciate is the Leaping Bunny campaign. Cosmetics and shampoos and such that are cruelty-free and meet PETA's standards can display the Leaping Bunny logo on their packaging and are listed on the Leaping Bunny website. I can find many of these things at my local Vitamin Cottage. Were it not for the Leaping Bunny, I would likely not spend the extra money on cruelty free cosmetics, because it wouldn't be easy to find exact standards of manufacture and tell which products meet them. I wish PETA would spend more resources on providing consumers with ways to make ethical choices.

A recent example of PETA-hatred damaging a worthwhile cause is the recent videos taken by undercover PETA volunteers at a Rainbow Exotics facility that breeds animals for Petsmart and Petco stores. I worked at a Petco and was a demo rep at a Petsmart, and none of that surprised me, having spoken on many an occasion with Rainbow Exotics employees, and having uselessly stuffed medication down the throat of many a dying Rainbow Exotics animal that was poorly bred and very neglected. But many animal people dismiss these videos as "faked" or "misrepresented" for coming from PETA. It's a shame animals may suffer because people refuse to take action if something comes from PETA.

[Norton]

My main problem with PETA is that they seem to be against owning pets.

I keep hearing that PETA euthanizes a large number of the animals they rescue, and they rarely provide adoptions. I have no evidence to back this up though- only hearsay. However, I've yet to see a way to adopt rescued animals that is supported by PETA.

We have a few volunteer organizations in my area that are working to reduce strays and give healthy non-feral animals a good home. When it comes to feral cats, they trap them all. Sick adult cats are euthanized, while healthy adults are spayed/neutered and released. Kittens are given shots, spayed/neutered and adopted. There are interviews and contracts when it comes to adopting rescued animals to ensure they recieve a good home. All three of my cats were adopted from such organizations, and none of them are supported by PETA.

It seems that PETA spends a lot of resources promoting veganism and encouraging people not to own pets, instead of trying to improve the quality of life for the animals. People as a whole will continue to eat meat and own pets. It's rather like preaching Abstinence Only to teenagers. It just doesn't work.

Finally, like any organization, certain members give it a bad name. My ex-roommate joined PETA and the holier-than-thou attitude that came with her membership completely turned me off to it.

[AFPheonix]

Unfortunately, PETA gets to lie in the bed it made. The moment it allowed any number of faked videos or other morally ambiguous things to be done under its name without bothering to do any damage control, it lost credibility.
If it wants to be taken seriously and actually get something done for the creatures it wishes to represent, it's going to have to clean up its act.

[Boozy]

PETA is a huge organization and, granted, I disagree wtih 99% of what they do; but with an organization that large, with so many employees and volunteers, the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

But certainly you don't think this is a valid excuse?

That's the same crap Nike tried to pull when children were found making their shoes in Indonesia. The same thing that Walmart suits say when one of their stores is caught forcing overtime. "Well, we're such a big company you know, we really can't be sure what's going on everywhere."

That is no excuse. If PETA cannot control what is going on in their name, then they need to start closing down chapters and shrink down to a size they find more manageable.

[flybye023]

I agree with AFPheonix. Too many times I've seen some terroristic attack/vandalism by people claiming to be PETA where the official response is either condoning or says with total self-righteousness "well, it's not something we would do but his/her heart is in the right place." Almost a "wish we'd thought of it first" attitude.

Also, I'm bothered by the fact that PETA does alot of talking but seems to have very little in the way of solutions or actions. "We want this done, but you have to figure out how!" Reality doesn't work that way. It seems to be populated by idealists with very little practical knowledge.

[Rapscallion]

"They're not pets - they're companion animals!"

Another example of people saying the same things as everyone else, but trying to control the language. If you give in to them on language, they find it easier to get you to agree on other things.

At least, I think that's the theory.

Rapscallion

[Saydrah]

It's not an excuse for doing bad things. But it's a way GOOD things slip through the cracks. PETA has massive amounts of funding that no other animal-related organization (well at least none that is pro-animal) commands in the world, and with all that funding and all the support it has, good things get done while they're busy TRYING to do things I disagree with.

And the terrorist label is just patently ridiculous. Public nuisance? Vandalism? Even theft? Sure, they do those sometimes. But terrorism? Can you imagine if they labeled all the anti-abortion organizations terrorist the way they label PETA? Focus on the Family would be blocked by family-friendly filters! People commit crimes in the name of any brand of extremism- that doesn't make it terrorist.

[Rapscallion]

Oh yes, the leaping bunny thing. Over here we call it a flying bunny, though it's one of those stylised things (hard to tell). It's licensed over here by the BUAV - British Union Against Vivisection (or a name like that). All our own brand bodycare products are produced to their standards and carry that mark.

Rapscallion

[Amethyst Hunter]

And the terrorist label is just patently ridiculous. Public nuisance? Vandalism? Even theft? Sure, they do those sometimes. But terrorism? Can you imagine if they labeled all the anti-abortion organizations terrorist the way they label PETA? Focus on the Family would be blocked by family-friendly filters! People commit crimes in the name of any brand of extremism- that doesn't make it terrorist.

Uhhh....I REALLY have to disagree on that one. Particularly that last line.

The point of extremism is to force other people to think and live how you want them to. Terrorism - which doesn't always have to be violent - is how people are browbeaten into accepting this extremism, whether they agree with it or not. Having somebody threaten to pull strings to get you fired from a job, or worse, blow up your home and shoot your loved ones, or you, is a pretty damn effective threat. Granted, the threat of losing a job is not on the same level as, say, setting fire to a building, but the intent is still the same: to make others do what the aggressor wants them to do, and to me, that is a form of terrorism.

To use an obvious example, there are, in fact, some anti-abortion organizations that are so extreme that they ARE listed with the federal government as de facto terrorists because of their very actions - perhaps the most notorious of these is Operation Rescue/Operation Save America, which has been documented as either supporting or even committing violence against abortion clinics and doctors. On the lesser scale, you have those equally hostile but nonviolent bunches that are responsible for the passing of the Access To Clinics Act, which states that at no time can anti-abortion protesters block any part of a clinic's entrance (which is one of their favorite tactics, or was, until law enforcement put a stop to that) to patients. Even now, women going into such clinics often have to run a gauntlet of sorts - even if they're not going in for an abortion - and there are escorts who will help these women into the building so they don't have to face the nastiness of the protesters alone.

At the *very least* PETA is definitely guilty of vandalism; I've heard other less than flattering things about them (including their alleged killing of animals that weren't in any way in need of euthanization) and I am ashamed to admit that in my younger days when one of their mailers showed up in my box once I donated about $50 to them (in my defense, up to that point I'd never heard of them and automatically thought "animal organization = good, right?"). I was chagrined to learn later what some of their tactics were, and it's just #234 of the many many things in my life that I'll be kicking myself over for eternity. (FTR, that's the first and *only* time I ever donated money to PETA.)

[Seshat]

Cattle, chickens, dogs, cats, horses and many other animals have evolved to need humans - just as we humans have evolved to need them.

If our entire civilisations turn vegan and non-pet-owning, how will those animals live?

[DesignFox]

Cattle, chickens, dogs, cats, horses and many other animals have evolved to need humans - just as we humans have evolved to need them.

If our entire civilisations turn vegan and non-pet-owning, how will those animals live?

They will run free! Like they were meant to, of course! :rolleyes: /sarcasm

I've not seen PETA doing very much good in the world... If I've got the money to spare, I'll keep donating it to other organizations that have less of a negative track record...

I read about some of the horrendous things PETA has done in a Best Friends magazine a few months back... picking up people's animals, claiming they would bring them to a shelter and then instead killing them and tossing them into dumpsters does not sound precisely humane to me...

This is one article referencing that incident. (http://www.consumerfreedom.com/pressRelease_detail.cfm/release/109)

Hit up google with "Peta" and "dogs in dumpster" and you'll find a slew of articles.

I don't agree with everything Best Friends promotes, but at least they do operate a vast no-kill shelter out in the middle of Utah...and so far as I know, they haven't committed any terrorist or vandalist acts. Anything they want changed they promote through their magazine or through promoting new legislation.

And of course, there's the good old SPCA...or the Humane Society.

Lots of people out there doing great things for animals...without vandalism or overdramatic advertising.

Of course, there is also the way PETA will slander celebrities and other individuals who wear fur or do other things PETA doesn't approve of. Best Friends, the Humane Society and the SPCA do not resort to such mud flinging when trying to promote their ideals.

So, yea...PETA brings bad press on itself. If they want to do any good for animals, they need to cut out the bad seeds and start fresh.

Although, indirectly, I suppose PETA DOES help animals...afterall, with all the bad things THEY get press for, that many more people are forced to pay attention to the issues...and do something about them... It isn't the way things should happen...but I guess it works... Kind of like a 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum.

[myswtghst]

Most of my experiences with and knowledge of PETA are not good. I am the biggest advocate for animals you will ever find, but personally, I'd rather help out with things I know that do good, not that I'm unsure of. When you hear stories constantly that PETA has been involved with putting animals to death, and "freeing" animals that will inevitably die in the wild as they're not equipped to hunt for themselves, I'd rather not donate money when there's only a chance it'll go toward something I support.

I'll give money, resources and time to local shelters and similar organizations. I've done volunteer work at upwards of 5 vet clinics and several shelters, including the humane society in capitol city MI and back home, totaling over 1000 recorded hours over the past 8 years or so. I love to donate pet food and the like when it's needed. And I'll give money any time I can afford it to the local shelters.

In addition, I still give money to the zoo I used to work at, to help support animals that are critically endangered and provide better habitats for the animals living there. Heck, I hope someday to open my own shelter, once I've got the money and the know-how to do so completely and successfully.

I've just heard one too many bad stories about the things PETA has done, and I've read one too many articles that just demonstrate that my views aren't lining up with theirs. My degree in Zoology, my experience over the years...it all just sums up that most of the PETA people I've experienced might have their heart in the right general area, but just have no fracking clue what they're doing.

And I do appreciate the Leaping Bunny, and I'm sure a few other things they might have had a hand in, I'd rather just avoid them as much as I can. *shrugs*

[Sylvia727]

They will run free! Like they were meant to, of course! :rolleyes: /sarcasm

Off Topic! (Why do we not have that smiley here?)
Bunnies living free, as Nature intended.

http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff200/fv00195.htm

[SportinGoods]

I would have to agree with some of the above posters that PETA has one of the worst track records imaginable.

The problem I have is not so much with the organization itself but it's co-founder Ingrid Newkirk. Some of the statements she has made just boggle my mind.

Mentioning the holocaust will always get your point across.

“Six million people died in concentration camps, but six billion broiler chickens will die this year in slaughterhouses.”
— The Washington Post, Nov 1983

“Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we’d be against it.”
— PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989

“There is no hidden agenda. If anybody wonders about -- what’s this with all these reforms -- you can hear us clearly. Our goal is total animal liberation.”
— “Animal Rights 2002” convention, Jun 2002

Would you feel safe walking home from work at night if you knew mountain lions and wild dogs were in the shadows? There are places in India where animals do indeed run wild, which amounts to many people dying every year from tiger attacks. Studies in this area have dis proven the theory that only sick or injured Tigers attack humans, they hunt them for food. *
Reference (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EPG/is_n3_v31/ai_19148299)

The methods of euthanasia employed by PETA are contradictory to their mission statement. With drug cocktails being less cost effective to give every animal that they can't find a home for, they have frozen batches of animals in a giant meat freezer in their headquarters. Thats pretty freaking cruel in my opinion, freezing to death is not a quiet and peaceful way to go. I think the original thing I saw referencing this is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTQCQ1eI7Is)

PETA has openly supported the ALF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_Front) and that organization has made some pretty strong threats against their enemies.

"A new era has dawned for those who fund the abusers and raise funds for them to murder animals with ... If you support or raise funds for any company connected with Huntingdon Life Sciences we will track you down, come for you and destroy your property with fire."

On the subject of animal testing, your view would be drastically different if it wasn't a shampoo or make-up product. Most of the medications we have in our cabinet wouldn't be here without animal testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_testing).

I'm not supporting the idea that we should test everything "just in case" or that the animals should be destroyed after these tests unless they are permanently disabled. For a company that makes as much money and receives as much press as PETA does, they don't seem to have the animal's best interest in mind. I don't see PETA helping to fund no-kill shelters, law enforcement organisations designed to prosecute animal offenders, or lobbying for animal rights in an effective manner. Causing a fuss over a celebrity for wearing fur does not count as progression of your movement.

*The article refferenced depicts an extreme minority of Tigers. The point to including it is that the tigers in the Sundarband are out of their "normal" habitat and have developed this behavior because of it.

[Lace Neil Singer]

The ALF were those nutters who dug up that old woman's body in protest; they also released hundreds of savage mink to roam free and attack lambs, birds and pets; they are a bunch of nutters, to put it mildly.

And I don't like PETA cuz they are just so fanatical; they want a meat free Britain, which to me screams "Totalitarian Regime!" The only PETA I support is this one: http://mtd.com/tasty/

[DesignFox]

Off Topic! (Why do we not have that smiley here?)
Bunnies living free, as Nature intended.

http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff200/fv00195.htm

:chuckles: that's pretty good Sylvia.

[tropicsgoddess]

I've not seen PETA doing very much good in the world... If I've got the money to spare, I'll keep donating it to other organizations that have less of a negative track record...

Although, indirectly, I suppose PETA DOES help animals...after all, with all the bad things THEY get press for, that many more people are forced to pay attention to the issues...and do something about them... It isn't the way things should happen...but I guess it works... Kind of like a 2 year old throwing a temper tantrum.

I oppose fur coats, I love animals, yet I'm not a vegan and I own a pet (a dog). What bothers me is an organization like PETA that is supposed to be about the love and ethical treatment of animals can spew out so much venom to the public. Throwing red paint on those who wear fur coats,pushing the public on being a vegan instead of putting more focus to the cause itself.

[SportinGoods]

OT: I think I now have the topic for my term paper, thank you three am fratching rants.

[DesignFox]

...Throwing red paint on those who wear fur coats,pushing the public on being a vegan instead of putting more focus to the cause itself.

Which is funny, because they encourage people to DONATE their furs to the less fortunate...so...what? You donate that fur coat, pledge to go fur free...some homeless guy gets to stay warm for the winter...until PETA finds him wearing the coat you donated and throws paint on him?!

Oh...on their Fur is Dead (http://www.furisdead.com/) site they give homeless people a "get out of jail free" card on that one.

[Seshat]

I oppose fur coats

I once knew a costumer who used fur in her designs. She purchased second-hand fur coats and other fur items, and used the fur from them.

I also have a belief: if you're going to kill an animal, USE the animal and be thankful for it. Don't kill it for sport, don't kill it for one piece and discard the rest. USE it.

And vegan doesn't make ecological sense in agriculturally marginal land. If the most appropriate crop on the land is pasture-suitable grass, trying to grow anything else is just going to wreck the land. Grow the grass and feed animals, then eat the animals, or their eggs/milk/whatever.

So I eat meat, wear leather, and use gelatin at times. I'll eat some organ meats, and I'll feed my pets meat, organ meats, hide chews, and appropriate (raw!) bones. I have a feather-and-down quilt on my bed. When my veggie patch really gets going, I'll use animal-derived fertilizers as well as plant-derived composts. And I almost certainly use animal-derived substances I'm unaware of.

But I buy RSPCA-approved animal products whenever possible. (RSPCA: Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.)

[Irving Patrick Freleigh]

While it is perfectly noble to care about animals and want to see them treated humanely, I think PETA goes a little too far.

A personal example from around here: PETA wrote a letter to the Green Bay Packers, suggesting that they change their name because the team was named after a meat-packing plant that funded the first Packers team. They suggested "Six-Packers". Promoting massive over-consumption of alcohol is SO much better...

They also created the ad campaign "Milk sucks. Got beer?"

I'd much rather give my time and money to organizations like the local humane society, which looks to give stray and abandoned animals loving homes, or the WWF.

[Rubyred]

First I have to say that I am a vegetarian. Fully and completely. With that being said.. I also have to add that I don't not eat meat with the belief that animals should not be killed for human consumption..I just think that there has to be a better way to go about it. Humans are the most advanced species in the planet...I think that we can find a more humane way to kill our food. Oh..and I love cows. :D

I'm sort of torn on this subject because while I do support MOST of PETA's ideas in theory...I dislike Ingrid Newkirk and her supporters because the majority of them are ignorant, brainwashed fools who have set back the animal rights movement significantly.

This also seems to, sadly enough, be the case with alot of "animal rights" people that I encounter. The holier-than- thou attitude is seriously disconcerting and it's not helping anything.

A previous poster had a link to video of PETA supporters protesting in front of an animal shelter because "they kill dogs, cats, puppies and kittens" and in their blind following of their dictator they believe that picketing in front of said shelter is making some sort of difference. Instead, it just makes them look like fools.

I completely agree with PETA in that "companion animals" should not have to be euthanized, but how are they helping the situation any? PETA should be focusing on helping the shelter by trying to find foster homes for the animals before they are killed, educating people on why they should spay/nueter their pets and providing financial assistance to the shleter to prevent the need for euthanasia.

That was just an example..but what I;m trying to say (in not so many words this time) is that PETA has some decent points in theory...they just go about accomplishing their goals in the worst way possible. What they really need (and I think it would help tremendously) is a new leader. She's the main issue.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Unfortunately, PETA gets to lie in the bed it made. The moment it allowed any number of faked videos or other morally ambiguous things to be done under its name without bothering to do any damage control, it lost credibility.
If it wants to be taken seriously and actually get something done for the creatures it wishes to represent, it's going to have to clean up its act.

I can't really say better than this.

PETA has established itself as being of questionable reliabliltiy and ethics. Now they are suffering the fact that no one takes them seriously. People who honestly want to help the cause of animal suffering would do well to align themselves with more reputable organizations.

Personally, a person only has to lie to me once for me to not trust them. It may not be that what they say is a lie, or even that it sounds like a lie...it's that that person has established themselves as a liar and as such I cannot trust ANYTHING they do or say. It's the same thing.

[BlaqueKatt]

once again PETA is for animal rights, most people beleive in animal welfare-the two are not interchangable and usually mutually exclusive-

suitable definition of "rights"-Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature.

suitable definintion of welfare-"Health, happiness, and good fortune; well-being."

see the difference?

[Zyanya]

http://www.popgive.com/2008/03/since-when-starving-dog-to-death-is.html


I may have just become a full-fledged PETA supporter

[Rapscallion]

Hardly. That's a sick act by a sick person, and something most people would decry regardless of animal welfare affiliations. PETA would be against this, but they're also against things many people find acceptable, such as eating meat or necessary medical experimentation.

On the experimentation thing, I don't see cosmetics as necessary, so sod animal testing for that. If I've got a currently uncurable disease, then sorry bunny, by my desire to live is greater than your evolution to survive.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I would argue that it was a lot of sick people who caused that dog's death.

How many people walked past and did nothing? Exactly all of them.

Joining PETA would do nothing. They've done as evil and worse. If you want to have this evil act produce something positive, then simply think of it whenever you are not moved to action when you should be.

Here's a link to a poem by my favorite poet, Mary Oliver. Don't read it if you are sensitive. I only read it once. Once was enough. It made my soul bleed.

http://www.eliteskills.com/analysis_poetry/The_Kookaburras_by_Mary_Oliver_analysis.php

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Here's a link to an expose on PETA that ran on Penn and Teller's Bullshit. Penn Gillette has a mouth on him, so not work safe unless you have headphones. Bad language. But it's pretty shocking and eye-opening. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY

[Seshat]

Support the RSPCA or the ASPCA or some other more ethical group, not necessarily PETA.

Support the World Wildlife Fund.

Support your local animal welfare police.

Support a local vet who does low-cost spay/neuter/treat in cooperation with an animal welfare charity.

Take a big bag of decent quality food to a local shelter. (Kill or no-kill is your choice, but until we get the problem dealt with at the breeding end, we'll need kill shelters.)

Spay/neuter your pet, and if you have a cat, keep it as an indoor cat or learn how to make a cat-proof fence.

Learn how to make your garden a haven for native fauna (though if you have a predator-species pet, be choosy about which fauna you encourage into the same space as your predator).

Learn about Kitty Genovese Syndrome (aka the Bystander Effect), and learn how to fight it in yourself and in others; so that you know you'll not be one who walks past such an incident.

Let your shock at the 'art installation' mean something - but learn about whichever group you choose to support, before you support them.

[anriana]

PETA does a lot of advertising with naked women. That's enough to turn me off from them. As a vegetarian, I absolutely hate them. They do so much stupid extremist crap they make the rest of us look bad.



That said, "People for Eating Tasty Animals" is such an annoying joke.

[Fuzzykitten99]

Videos to make people think about PETA. May be NSFW... there is cursing and some nudity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9ijLulwUTY&feature=related

[rahmota]

Focus on the Family would be blocked by family-friendly filters!
And this would be a bad thing? All I have to say is that yes PETA is a terrorist group. No I do not think they are good. Yes they are a bunch of wacko nutjobs who got lost somewhere around the summer of 69 in idealistland and need to join the rest of the really real world.

As seshat pointed out already there are much better, more ethical and responsible organizations out there than PETA to support.

One thign though as growing up a farmer I have to say. you cant/shouldnt try and save each and every little stray dog or kitten or whatever. Sometimes the circle of life means somethign dies. Being a bystander is not always a bad thing.

Of course this is coming from the guy who adopted a half blind, flea bitten nag of a horse recently so take it for what you will. Basically pick and choose your battles more appropriate for what you can personally do.

[Dorath]

Focus on the Family would be blocked by family-friendly filters!

As it should be. FoF is an overtly bigoted organization.

[DesignFox]

Interesting video on PETA fuzzy kitten. :D

I've decided that I like Penn and Teller. (that's the first video I've seen of them)

[Difdi]

Somewhat off-topic, but enforcing a vegan diet on small children amounts to child abuse. There's some things you can't get on a vegan diet that a lack of, while only mildly harmful to a mature adult, will literally kill babies and small children.

[ebonyknight]

Somewhat off-topic, but enforcing a vegan diet on small children amounts to child abuse. There's some things you can't get on a vegan diet that a lack of, while only mildly harmful to a mature adult, will literally kill babies and small children.

Like what? I was allergic to milk at that age and was fed Prosobee instead (soy milk).

[Difdi]

Like what? I was allergic to milk at that age and was fed Prosobee instead (soy milk).

I don't remember the full list, but it mostly amounts to difficulty with nutrients needed for proper nerve function, calcium and protein. There's been a number of cases recently where little kids died from being fed the same food their vegan parents ate.

[AFPheonix]

Yeah, but those vegans were special cases where they essentially blamed their veganism instead of their own craptacular parenting and phobia of health care professionals. IIRC, one of those didn't even breastfeed their baby, since apparently human breastmilk is an animal product :rolleyes:. That poor infant got nothing but apple juice.

[DesignFox]

IIRC, one of those didn't even breastfeed their baby, since apparently human breastmilk is an animal product :rolleyes:. That poor infant got nothing but apple juice.

WTF? :eek:

I think those parents we hear about are just the idiots. I think, if done properly, a child can survive off a vegan diet.

I think it's wrong of parents to force that on their children, though. As with all things in life, they should educate their children and allow them to make their own decisions about what sort of diet they choose to follow.

In any case, despite your own personal beliefs on animal welfare, the health of your child should come first. If the doc says he needs meat to live, you should damn well be giving it to him even if you wouldn't touch it yourself.

[AFPheonix]

I almost recalled correctly. I got two different families combined into one in my head.
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=96364

The first set were the ones who only fed their 6 week old soy milk and apple juice, no human breast milk.

The second set were the ones who didn't believe in doctors or hospitals, but would give their kids wheatgrass enemas for whatever ailed them.

http://www.saturdaynightsolution.com/trials/andressohn/110705_ctv.html