People who use bullying as a justification

[Red Panda]

I hate it when people who were bullied use it as a justification for their own violence. There was a thread on Customers Suck where a person casually mentioned that they were unfairly expelled because they threatened a bully with a gun.

In my mind there is no reason to respond to violence with a greater amount of violence outside of self defense or war. Being bullied sucks but premeditated crimes are also wrong. I see alot of people justify assaults by saying they were bullied, either by that person or in the past, and that is plain wrong.

If you are threatened and you defend yourself then great. If you are called names so a week later you threaten to murder the person then you are on the same level as them, if not worse.


I'm not going to link to the topic that made me make this one because I don't want to look like I am provoking or calling out that individual. My feelings are not to any person in paticular but rather a group

[Mikkel]

I don't know, if you are desperate enough, and that is what prolonged bullying does to you, it may seem that any change will be for the better and to see the bully cringe, just once, is worth the risk of being expelled. I can understand that.
To extrapolate from being bullied and build ones entire world view on violence and injustice is something of a non sequitur. There are good in the world too and sometimes a bully or even a murderer can learn better.

[Boozy]

Red Panda was very careful to avoid naming any specific incident when she started this thread, and frankly, that was a smart idea. I don't want a debate about any one particular member in this situation. Nothing but personal attacks and hurt feelings will result.

However, there's potential for a good debate here. Let's stick to speaking in generalities, please. What do you think about meeting violence with violence? Is bullying a justification for violence? Can it be considered self-defense?

Personal stories are okay to share, but remember that if you present them, they become a debatable topic. Don't bring it up if you're going to get offended by someone questioning your actions.

[Rageaholic]

I think it depends. Threatening people with death over being called names does not justify such an extreme responce, but if they are threatening you with violence, unprovoked, they are fighting dirty. Why should they be allowed to fight dirty, but not the ones they are bullying? Death threats are extreme, but then again, if they are threatening you with death, and no one is stopping them, why should you have to sit there and take it?

[Lace Neil Singer]

I once punched a bully who came up to me and scratched my face. I not only hit her once, but hit her til she fell down. She started the fight; not my fault that she couldn't finish what she started. I got suspended for a week for fighting; I expected that. However, the bully got no punishment at all, cuz, to quote the headmaster, "she was worse hurt". :rolleyes:

That was crap. She was only hurt at all cuz she picked a fight with me in the first place. In this instance, fighting back was the only thing that worked; after I started doing that, the bullies finally left me alone. True, I was ignored and excluded by the other kids and had to be isolated from them by the teachers, but all the ignoring and walking away from the bullies hadn't done fuck all.

If people don't want bullied kids to use violence against their bullies, then perhaps they ought to think about taking steps to prevent bullying and to deal with it once it starts.

[Hobbs]

I never punched a bully Lace. Each time I was threatened I was able to talk them down, find an escape or, in the extreme instances, use pressure-points to defend myself. Once the 'tough' kids saw me bring someone to their knees with a well-placed hold, I wasn't bothered. In middle school, I tutored a football player that provided security for me. So there are alternatives to fighting. Like the old saying, "Work smarter; not harder."

[smileyeagle1021]

There was an incident when I was growing up, where a girl on a school bus pulled another girl's hair and that girl turned around and slammed the first girl's head into the window. Everyone made a noise about how terrible it was that she would go off with such slight provocation.
Then it came out that the first girl had been doing stuff like that for months on end (since the beginning of the school year), the second girl reported it to the bus driver, bus driver did nothing, reported it to her teacher, teacher did nothing, reported it to the vice principle, ditto, reported it to the principal, ditto. NO ONE did anything to stop the tormenting. After several months of no one helping her, I'd say it was entirely appropriate for her to finally take it into her own hands. And you know what, the first girl never again bullied anyone else.
Sadly, it used to be common knowledge, but it's been lost in our oh so sensitive culture that the only way to deal with a bully was for someone to finally beat the shit out of them and put them in their place.

[Greenday]

Meh, responding with violence like a good punch in the face is a reasonable response in my opinion.

But when you start talking about killing them, it's going too far. Shit, I'd pray for the cops to be called if someone threatened that and I heard it.

[Hobbs]

Sadly, it used to be common knowledge, but it's been lost in our oh so sensitive culture that the only way to deal with a bully was for someone to finally beat the shit out of them and put them in their place.

Actually, you illustrated ways to deal with a bully in your post. Inform the authorities. Now, in your instance no one intervened, but by reforming the way administration handles bullying (seen by the passing of anti-bullying laws) then we can have authority figures step in and prevent the escalation, dole out non-corporal, punitive actions.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I never punched a bully Lace. Each time I was threatened I was able to talk them down, find an escape or, in the extreme instances, use pressure-points to defend myself. Once the 'tough' kids saw me bring someone to their knees with a well-placed hold, I wasn't bothered. In middle school, I tutored a football player that provided security for me. So there are alternatives to fighting. Like the old saying, "Work smarter; not harder."

Might work with boys, but not necessarily with girls. In any case, these girls hated me for being clever, having big boobs and talking to boys. Talking them down wouldn't have worked at all; in fact, it didn't. They only responded to violence, but it never would have come to that if the head had done his job properly. The bullies were never punished, the school did nothing.

[Red Panda]

Even if the school does nothing I never understood why people who claim to be violently bullied on a regular basis never contacted the police. They have more authority then the school.

[Amanita]

In my case, I never contacted the police, because I didn't know I had the right to. I was picked on all to hell through jr high school, and the teachers and guidance councillor were indifferent and/or ineffective. My guidance councillor told me to act the chameleon- don't ever do, say, or wear anything that might be attention-getting in any way. Basically, don't be me. And also, to say "good morning" to people, as if that would magically make them like me.

I didn't know I had the right to appeal to any higher authority, that anyone outside the school would take things seriously. Even though I was being called names, having my stuff stolen and vandalized, and even borderline sexually harrassed. If being shoved against a locker by two boys trying to kiss me wasn't an attempted sexual assault, I don't know what is. Thank heavens I got away. I wish I had the knowlege then that I do now- how to seriously injure somebody if need be. Perhaps leaving one or two tormentors screaming and bloodied might have convinced the rest that I was not to be fucked with, or at least was not worth the trouble.

I really don't like the term "bullying". It sounds so cutesy, so childish. Let's call it what it is- emotional and psychological abuse, assault, vandalism, harrassment. Not so cute or "kids being kids" anymore, is it?

[Plaidman]

This is of course police would have done anything. Mine were told they needed to personally witness it, and not just take my word for it. As then any one could just say they were bullied.

[Red Panda]

I would think anything involving bodily harm or theft would require them to investigate no matter what. Its not like they have to witness adults being robbed or assaulted.

[muses_nightmare]

I would think anything involving bodily harm or theft would require them to investigate no matter what. Its not like they have to witness adults being robbed or assaulted.

Emphasis on adults. A lot of the time, police won`t take a child or teen`s complaints seriously simply because they think of it as `kids being kids`or because they don`t think a crime is being committed.

[Greenday]

Even if the school does nothing I never understood why people who claim to be violently bullied on a regular basis never contacted the police. They have more authority then the school.

Probably because cops don't give a crap about bullying in schools. They have better stuff to do like "cruising around" and God knows what in a town where the worst crime is generally a stolen bike.

Also, a lot of times the police treat schools like a separate jurisdiction. The school is the force who regulates what goes on in the school and the cops regulate everything outside of it.

[smileyeagle1021]

Red, what makes you think that a child would know that they can go to the police, much less be aware of how to file a police report?
And, for those who do go to the police, what makes you think they'll take a kid seriously? I know that the one time I tried to go to the cops they referred me back to the school, the same school that had told me there was nothing they could do... yeah, as if that if going to help anybody.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I didn't even know about going to the police. In any case, I doubt they would have taken it seriously.

[guywithashovel]

A lot of times, reports of bullying do get downplayed and poopooed. That's probably why some kids who are bullied lash out like they do. That's not to justify extremes like killing people, though.

To some extent, I reject this notion that people should never react with force because it's "swooping to the other person's level" or "we need to rise above it all." During my life, I've come to the conclusion that sometimes swooping to the other person's level (if that's what you want to call it) is necessary. The people who do this stuff aren't completely civilized and are likely not going to understand anything else other than their own medicine.

I also think the idea that kids in these situations don't feel like they have a right to report what's happening has merit. When I was 17, I went to a martial arts convention in Quebec City. I rode up there in a van with some other members of the martial arts association my instructor was affiliated with. During the trip, one of the guys in the group decided to make me his scapegoat for the trip. Throughout most of the trip, he would make loud jokes about how he thought the group should "pass me around the van." He often tried to touch me, hug me, fondle me, etc. as a joke. He pretended like he was gay and kept telling me he would catch me in the bathroom sometime and "have some fun with me." He also told me that if I fell asleep in the van, he would anally rape me. He was 25.

I can't tell you how uncomfortable this all made me. However, I felt like I didn't have a right to be disturbed by it since it was supposedly all a joke, and so I never told anyone. I suspect others feel the same way.

[Akasa]

I was lucky. In early high school a middle aged man taught me some martial arts so I could defend myself from those bullying me. I grew up the smallest, the target. I had growth hormone deficiency, so I was the weakling. Easy target. Strangely it was mainly guys that targeted me, jocks.

I was taught how to take my target down using pressure points to where they would be on the ground in a submission hold. I was taught how to take down multiple targets and run away if need be, and my lessons came with the warning be careful you can really hurt someone with these moves. Don't use your full force unless you're fighting for your life. In 3 moves I can have someone on the ground tapping out or gasping for breath. I have had to use that knowledge. Without that training the bullying would have gotten way out of hand, as it was once the bullies saw I was no longer an easy target they went elsewhere looking for their kicks... in most cases. Some couldn't believe little ole me was no longer afraid of them and under their thumb. They got the brunt of my martial arts training. Every time they came at me. Some of them were rather stubborn. One of them attempted to rape me. He got the full brunt of the training.

[Talon]

To some extent, I reject this notion that people should never react with force because it's "swooping to the other person's level" or "we need to rise above it all."

And I'll reject it with you.
Violence should be a weapon of last resort. But a person who isn't willing to do violence under any circumstances has hopelessly crippled themselves, for no good reason. As someone else put it, turning the other cheek only gets you 2 sore cheeks.

Oh and the "stooping to their level" argument amounts to a false dichotomy. One person does violence because they get a sick twisted pleasure from it, another does violence because they have no other choice. One is NOT the same as the other.

During my life, I've come to the conclusion that sometimes swooping to the other person's level (if that's what you want to call it) is necessary.

"Mister, are you a bad man?"
- "That depends on who asks."

[Lace Neil Singer]

Exactly that. I only cracked and used violence after three years of bullying. It was a last resort for me, cuz I'm not a violent person. But if you pick a fight, you will get what's coming to you.

The girl who scratched my face never ever picked on me again. Also, the other bullies soon learned not to, after attacking me and getting punched. I'm sure that reasoning with bullies works for some people, but it didn't work for me.