Disabled services etiquette

[Sylvia727]

A few years ago, I used the bathroom at a certain restaurant. The restroom had two stalls, one normal-sized and one handicapped. The normal stall was occupied, so I went into the handicapped stall. I was on my period, so I did take longer than usual, but I was in there four minutes tops. When I came out, a woman in a wheelchair and a companion pushing her were waiting for the stall. They were in the dead center of the space between me and the sink, so I had to squeeze around them to wash my hands. I said “Excuse me,” politely as I did so, but the companion shot me a death glare and made a loud comment ‘to her friend’. I can’t remember the exact wording, but it was something about how she hated selfish people who think the disabled stall is a luxury for their convenience and not a necessity for the disabled. The other woman agreed with her loudly. Apparently, the woman in the other stall had left before they came in. I almost called them out on their rudeness, but even as I opened my mouth I decided that arguing with a pair of entitlement whores would get me nowhere. As they say, never a mudwrestle a pig; you’ll both get dirty and the pig likes it.

So here’s what I would have liked to have said: It’s a bathroom stall, not a VIP lounge! While I do leave the handicapped stall available if possible for the wheelchair-bound, the morbidly obese, mothers with small children, and any other demographic that can’t use a normal stall, I do this as a courtesy to my fellow woman, not because I can’t use this toilet. I am certainly not going to stand here pissing and bleeding in my pants on the off chance that this will spare you from waiting four minutes. After all, the bathrooms aren’t segregated, and it isn’t my fault Mommy never taught you to wait your turn.

So, is there some sort of handicapped stall etiquette that I violated? Are there disabled services that the non-disabled shouldn’t use? Disabled services that are prone to abuse by others? Discuss.

[Boozy]

They made an incorrect assumption and made themselves look like assholes.

That's also the first time I've ever heard someone call a public restroom stall a "luxury"....I suppose you'd sort of have to feel sorry for someone who thinks that. :D

[DesignFox]

Baby had to wait her turn? Boo Hoo.

I say Screw Them. There is nothing wrong with what you did. The stall was the only one available. You took it.

Nothing wrong with that.

Also, what if the other stall was out of order? Or dirty? Are you just not supposed to pee in case someone maybe comes by in a wheelchair???

What if there had been a line? Is everyone else supposed to let them jump to the front of the line because OMG I NEED TO USE THE BIG STALL!? Either way, she'd have to wait...like everyone else.

Sheesh.

I can't stand that entitled attitude.

[powerboy]

You did not do anything wrong. People like them, is what makes the handicapped people look bad.

[crazylegs]

If there are sperate Rest Rooms (as in totally seperate rooms) for Disabled/Able Bodied I personally *will not* use the disabled loos, but just a seperate stall, well if the other is taken, when you gotta go...

[Seshat]

Disabled person here. :)

If the disabled stall is just a larger, normal stall in with all the rest, please don't use it while there are other, vacant stalls available in a usable condition. But if the other stalls are all full (or broken), go ahead and use the disabled stall.

If there's a queue, and a disabled person joins the queue, please bear in mind that people with lower-body disabilities often have continence problems as well. Just as you might let a young child or elderly person skip ahead in the queue, please offer to let a person with lower-body disabilities skip ahead when the disabled stall becomes vacant.
(Also: there's only one choice of stall for them, so without skipping ahead slightly like that, they may end up waiting longer than everyone else. If there are continence issues, that can be quite a problem.)

If the disabled stall is a unisex one that's separate from the normal stalls, please leave it for the disabled unless there's an abnormally long queue for the normal stalls. And let disabled people skip ahead for the disabled loo.

If the disabled stall is one of the really good ones with space to turn a wheelchair around, and grab bars, and a handbasin at wheelchair level, and doors wide enough for wheelchairs, and doors that you don't have to try to hold open while you're simultaneously wheeling the wheelchair - please make sure the disabled have priority for it! Those are almost as easy to use for us as a normal loo is for you!


Anyway, to summarise: you're fine, those women were out of line.

[Saydrah]

So, is there some sort of handicapped stall etiquette that I violated?

Seshat gave a great answer- I defer to her. Personally, I would rather wait for a regular stall than use a stall reserved for persons with disabilities, for the reasons Seshat touched on- continence problems and the sheer amount of time it takes to transfer out of a wheelchair onto a toilet for people with certain disabilities make a wait that would be a minor inconvenience to me a major inconvenience to people with some disabilities. I'd rather not inflict a major inconvenience on a stranger if I can help it, so in a public area, I'll inflict a minor inconvenience on myself instead.

Are there disabled services that the non-disabled shouldn’t use?

Do not park in a space reserved for persons with disabilities if you don't have a disability. Handicapped parking is not "new mother parking," "just running in for a minute parking," or "borrowed Granny's placard parking." It is for persons with disabilities or with a passenger in the car with a disability, and only if said persons have obtained a license plate or placard showing that they can legally park in these spaces. Able-bodied people using these spaces causes enormous frustration to people with invisible disabilities, because of the dirty looks and comments they get for appearing able-bodied, even with the appropriate license plate or placard. There is so much abuse of handicapped parking that many people assume anyone who appears able to walk normally is among the abusers of that parking option.

Don't defraud the government and apply for SSI or SSDI if you're not qualified. That's one service people without disabilities definitely shouldn't use.

Don't take the scooters at the grocery store or Walmart just to fool around in the aisles and play games. If you're in need of assistance to be mobile enough to shop, use a scooter. If you're a teenager wanting to give his girlfriend a ride down the aisle, don't. I told a batch of teens off the other day for that in the peanut butter aisle.

Don't sit in seats on public transit that are reserved for the elderly or persons with disabilities unless the bus is full- and even if it is, if an elderly or disabled person gets on the bus, stand up and offer them your seat.

Disabled services that are prone to abuse by others?

Yes. Almost all of them. But more importantly, people with disabilities are prone to abuse by others. You'll be doing more good in the world if you focus on taking care to treat everyone you meet, able bodied, wheelchair user, intellectually disabled, etc., as a human being, and to avoid falling prey to disphobic thinking like excusing Robert Latimer's killing of his disabled daughter because "she was in pain," than by being obsessive about avoiding handicapped toilets.

[Seshat]

Saydrah covered the more general cases reasonably well, but I'll cover a few of my own.

Become aware.

My best friend helped a woman in a wheelchair a short time back. Her wheels were stuck in a crack in the cobbles, and she was completely trapped - on the road. In front of a hospital. In the time it took my best friend to walk to her, she'd watched a dozen people walk past and ignore the trapped woman. All it took to free her was a gentle push onto smoother terrain.

Along those lines: try to remain aware that there's a person in that mobility aid. If my friend had simply grabbed the handles of her wheelchair and shoved, she definitely would have scared the poor woman (who was already scared enough!), and may have gotten her off balance enough to have her fall out of the wheelchair. Always treat the person as a person: ask if they want help, ask what sort of help they want, let them keep some control.

Oh, another one. A friend of a friend is wheelchair-bound, and reports that people keep bumping into her legs without even saying sorry. Because 'she's paraplegic, obviously, and can't feel it anyway'. Two problems: she's not paraplegic - and she actually has hypersensitivity to pain. She's had a cage constructed around her legs to try to protect herself.

On the good side: people can be incredibly kind. I've had people swerve in their walking to press lift buttons or traffic light buttons for me, just because it was going to be easier for them to do it. They typically get a 'thank you' called out, because by the time I've got the 'you' said, they're already halfway down the street.
Or people who carry food to a table for me, or don't let me bus my own dishes, simply because a person in a wheelchair/using a cane/using a scooter doesn't have the free hands to do it, and they do.
Shop assistants who are endlessly patient with my disabilities, or who will happily load my scooter for me.

On the less-good side again: before the scooter, wheelchair and walking stick, I didn't look disabled. People weren't so patient with me, and would sometimes tell me to hurry up or stop being so lazy. Or would glare at me for taking a seat on a busy bus or train. Just because I looked like a healthy young adult doesn't mean I was! But Saydrah covered that.

Oh, another one that occured to me: epileptic fits don't always look like the movies. If someone is suddenly acting really strangely, and their companions stop what they're doing and focus on the strangely-behaving one, you can catch the eye of one of the companions and offer help if they need it. But if they assure you it's under control, there may not be any need to actually interfere. Monitor the situation, sure. Get your cellphone out and be ready to call emergency. But - well.
If my epileptic friend has a fit, and we're with her, we know when to call an ambulance and when not to. We won't move her unless her safety requires it, but we're monitoring the situation. Her son may sound distressed, but that's the tone of voice that reaches her self. (Wouldn't you respond if your son sounded distressed? Well, that's my hypothesis for why that tone reaches her.) If he's really concerned, he'll find an adult and get them to call an ambulance.
If my husband has a syncope attack, again, there is no need to call an ambulance unless certain conditions are met. We're monitoring the situation, we'll let you know.

That said, if there isn't someone who assures you the situation is well under control, or if your instincts tell you there's something funny going on, please do call emergency services. I'd really rather have my husband or my epileptic friend taken to hospital needlessly than have them not get it when it is needed.

Please don't let what I just said deter you from calling the emergency services if there seems to be a need. Fight bystander effect (aka Kitty Genovese effect) - just be prepared to be reassured that things are okay, if there seems to be someone competent handling it.


This probably sounds all confusing and overload-y, doesn't it? Really, it just amounts to 'be aware, be thoughtful, be nice to people, but don't be a doormat'.

Disabled people are just like everyone else: which means we do have sucky customers, entitlement whores, and outright criminals in our ranks too.

[DesignFox]

This is all very good information.

It's a shame to hear about the way people treat your friend Seshat. I am shocked to think that someone would bump into your friend and not apologize....Wouldn't that courtesy be owed to anyone, wheelchair or not?

I too dislike seeing able bodied people using the wheelchairs, scooters, or handicapped parking spaces. There's just no excuse for that in my book. I had an ex-manager who would do that...very rude.

I realize my line about the line waiting to use a bathroom stall seemed a bit callous, so I do want to add that if I saw a person in a wheelchair waiting in line behind me, and I was next, and the handicapped stall opened first...I, personally, would let them go first. Especially if there were a number of "regular" stalls that may become unoccupied. But I gotta say, if I'd been waiting for a fair few mins, and I was feeling ready to pee my pants...and that person came in 15 people back...I probably wouldn't notice! I'm human, too!

I actually never would have thought that certain lower mobility issues would also cause continence issues...so I'll definitely keep that in mind if I ever end up in that situation. (I think it's highly unlikely, but I'll just be aware, as you say).

Saydrah...the fact that people would defraud the government and apply for handicapped plates or stickers...wow. That is just...WOW. How do people even get away with that?

[Seshat]

It's a shame to hear about the way people treat your friend Seshat. I am shocked to think that someone would bump into your friend and not apologize....Wouldn't that courtesy be owed to anyone, wheelchair or not?

You'd think so.

I too dislike seeing able bodied people using the wheelchairs, scooters, or handicapped parking spaces. There's just no excuse for that in my book.

I look able-bodied, and to see me walk either during the start of a trip out, or when I'm trying to look normal (a bad habit I need to break), you'd think I wouldn't need my wheelchair or scooter. Or the handicapped tag I kind of need to apply for. :o It's really hard to tell who is, and who isn't, disabled.

I realize my line about the line waiting to use a bathroom stall seemed a bit callous, so I do want to add that if I saw a person in a wheelchair waiting in line behind me, and I was next, and the handicapped stall opened first...I, personally, would let them go first. Especially if there were a number of "regular" stalls that may become unoccupied.

So there's nothing to worry about. That sounds perfectly reasonable, and more than fair. I'd also ask that you extend that same courtesy to people with walkers - not necessarily a single-foot cane, but certainly the type that's a complex frame that might not fit inside a normal stall.

But I gotta say, if I'd been waiting for a fair few mins, and I was feeling ready to pee my pants...and that person came in 15 people back...I probably wouldn't notice! I'm human, too!

Imagine me giggling and smiling.

I actually never would have thought that certain lower mobility issues would also cause continence issues...so I'll definitely keep that in mind if I ever end up in that situation. (I think it's highly unlikely, but I'll just be aware, as you say).

That's why I mentioned it. Most people think of continence issues as being babies/toddlers, the very elderly, and pregnant women with baby weight on the bladder.

But me - I'm designing continence panties for adults, based on modern cloth nappies. (Cloth diapers, for you Americans.) Trying to figure out how to make them thin and discreet, so they'll fit under jeans or business suits or slim skirts without showing. Because there's a lot more need for them than able-bodied people realise.

Saydrah...the fact that people would defraud the government and apply for handicapped plates or stickers...wow. That is just...WOW. How do people even get away with that?

And then there are people like my mother. Who, despite having almost no cartilage left on her knees, flatly refuses to use any of the physical assistances she's been repeatedly offered. Or get a handicapped tag. Or - GAH! Damn it, Mum!

Annnyway.

Yes, there are a lot of people who think 'being disabled' would be an easy way to lounge around, get good parking spots, and all manner of things like that. Personally, I'd love to have all of those people suddenly magically become disabled. See how they like it. :mad:

As for 'how do people get away with that?' - they pick illnesses which have more symptoms (subjective) than signs (objective). It's easy for a doctor to tell if you have green-spots-disease, because you're covered in green spots. It's hard for a doctor to tell if you have it-hurts-when-I-walk-disease, because noone but you can tell if you have pain. (Or could, before neural activity scanning! :D)

So things like fibromyalgia, which are symptom-high and sign-low, are common choices for fakers. Fortunately for people with fibro (like me) and other sign-low diseases, there's now a wide spectrum of medical imagery which can detect subtle signs. For instance, it's now been proven that the brain of a person with fibro activates in severe-pain patterns when a low-pain stimulus is applied: brain scans show that.

So the fakers are having a harder and harder time of it, and people with the subtle diseases can always request that the welfare agency that's challenging their claim pay for a scan. :p It's getting harder to fool doctors, so more and more welfare agencies are becoming willing to trust the medical community - thankfully.

[Saydrah]

The most common form of fraud that I notice is people who do have a family member eligible for handicapped parking placards or plates, but who use those items- and parking spaces- when that family member is nowhere to be found.

Faking as Seshat described is unfortunately fairly common also, but again as she described, it's getting harder. I know of at least one faker who in fact uses a manual wheelchair despite being able-bodied and in fine health, and who gets out of the chair to walk his dogs rather than deal with the difficulty of them pulling the chair around. If he were close enough I'd give him a good slap!

[Seshat]

If you're disabled, you HAVE to have a sense of humour.

You know you're disabled, when you're actually better off sitting in a wheelchair being pushed by a blind person, than walking.

It really is funny, though. My blind friend J sometimes pushes me.


(We really need to get a car that can carry the scooter! Right now, if we want to go anywhere beyond easy scooter-range of my home, we're limited to where trains can take us. Anyone want to make a donation to the car fund? :P)

[Saydrah]

Hmm, that actually makes me curious! I imagine that pushing a wheelchair would give a blind person more of a feel for the ground, by feeling the vibrations from the wheels coming up to the handles. It's probably a mobility aid for both of you, and you can be "guide human."

[Seshat]

It's an exercise in patience, I can tell you that! Also an exercise in being willing to laugh at mistakes.

"Veer left - slightly to the right - now slow, slow, stop. Great! If you come around me to the right, you'll be at the counter."

She gets to not just feel needed, but be needed. And we get to let A (mental but not physical disabilities) have some time off from being J's guide or my 'motor'.

Tell you who loves pushing wheelchairs, though. Kids. It makes them feel trusted and important. Unfortunately, it can be occasionally painful. :wince: They don't think to take you gently over bumps, or to ease into stops and starts.


Hm. Actually, I have a very, very important anecdote for this thread. I have told it before, but it emphasises the 'be aware' thing.

Watch out for disabled people in parking lots!

Disabled people who are too proud to go get a handicap sticker (don't know any of those :innocent look: ), or whose handicap sticker may not yet have arrived, can be travelling through the parking lot too. And they don't have the mobility to jump out of the way.

A was pushing me (wheelchair), and leading J (blind). We went behind a car that was waiting for a parking space, and right when I was directly behind the car, the driver started backing up!

J couldn't see what was happening, but could feel the heat shift. She moved to the other side of me than the car, and grabbed at the armrest - she later told me she intended to try to pull me out of the way by whatever part of the wheelchair she could grab. Unfortunately, the direction she chose (blindly - of course) was right into a traffic lane. :(

A shoved me towards what safety there was, but there really wasn't much room - we'd intended to turn me before taking me up a narrow walking space. If the car kept coming back, it would at best case clip the back of the chair. She also put herself between J & I, and the car, shouted, and tried to make herself incredibly visible.

I couldn't do anything useful - I screamed and threw my arm up to make myself more visible. Getting out of the chair is possible for me, but not quick - certainly not 'you have half a second to act' quick.

Fortunately, the car stopped, and there was noone coming along the land J moved into. But we could easily have been injured.

(I must fill out the form for the tag. At least I have one now - that's good, right?)


So yeah. Be aware. Healthy people may be able to get out of your way. Some disabled people can't, not even when you're going slow.

[Boozy]

That's awful.

I've had cars nearly back into me, too. And I'm not in a wheelchair.

People just need to watch where they're bloody going, period.

[IDrinkaRum]

I need to apply for a handicapped tag or permanent license plate (whichever one they give to people with Autism). I'm not looking forward to this as the tag/plate will be for my daughter who is Autistic. She looks normal too. However, she's a runner. (Think Forrest Gump. Think Charlie Brown when he went off the track and into the the woods during some school race Peanuts special). Plus, she doesn't respond when Mommy cries out in abject terror to get her to return and I have to run (waddle/bounce/hippo trot) after her.

Also, I'm going to call my local sheriff's department to get a new fangled type of bracelet for Operation Childfind (I think that's what's it's called). If she runs & I can't find her, I press a button and the cops can find her. Whew. It will be a load off of my mind. XD Let me tell you.

[Seshat]

Give serious consideration to a leash, too. I know some people look at you strangely and some will probably even confront you about it. But this particular stranger on the internet would applaud you for it.

Keeping her safe is incredibly important. I know there's also the dignity and independence things to think about, but you have to have a balance between safety and dignity.



And on the topic of cars backing into us - thanks, Boozy. It was an awful experience.

[DesignFox]

People just need to watch where they're bloody going, period.

I agree with that sentiment. I've been shopping up a storm this week for a formal event, and I can't tell you how many nutcases go flying through parking lots like it's the Indy 500.

Disabled or not, it can be tough to get out of way!

I hope that person at least apologized for being a ninny, Seshat... :(

And I'm pro child leashes. My mom strapped one on me when I was a kid. ;)

There's nothing wrong with watching out for your child's safety...especially if you feel that you can't chase her down, IDrinkaRum. The bracelet sounds like a good idea. I hope everything works out for you both!

[Saydrah]

I'm also all for the child leash! If she's autistic, she might be more comfortable with connecting to you by a leash than with physical contact, and it'd keep her safe.

[Hello Kitty]

I *had* to get leashes for my twins, luckily I got cute ones that look like stuffed animals so less dog leash looking. I got mostly positive responses "where'd you get that? so cute", but also did get the dirty looks and one comment "just like they were DOGS". Geesh, would you rather my kids be running all over the parking lot?? Some people just need to MYOB.

Once I overheard a woman speaking to her daughter in a public restroom. "Don't use the handicapped stall, go to a regular one!" I'm thinking, go mom! Then I hear "It's okay for me to be in this handicapped stall, since there are two handicapped stalls." Uhm....double standard, mom.

[Seshat]

Well, I had a run-in with another disabled person a couple of days ago. Entitlement bitch, I think. Sure, I had a bit of error in the situation myself, but I think she handled it much worse than I did.

I use a mobility scooter. The scooter fits on the train system we have here, and disabled people in scooters or wheelchairs are asked to wait at the first door behind the driver's cabin. The train driver will get out and set a ramp down for us to get in, and will do the same at the station we're getting off at.

Now, I've only travelled three times with the scooter, including this trip. So I'd never had a situation where another disabled person wanted to get on. So I just parked where it was easiest. That was my suck, and I'm not going to do that anymore.

This trip a couple of days ago, another disabled woman with a scooter wanted to get on the train. I got up and moved my scooter, apologising for leaving it in the way. To move it out of the way, I moved it so that it was facing in the direction of travel. There was another possible position that faced the direction of travel, though it was more awkward to get into - it'd take some back-and-forthing to get a scooter there, but it was doable. The only other place that would have been out of her way was the main aisle - in everyone else's way.

The other woman left her scooter in the position mine had been in originally - perpendicular to the direction of travel, and blocking mine in. I asked where she was getting off - it turned out she was getting off before me - so I nodded and left the scooters in that position. Didn't bother me that I was blocked in.

Then I got off my scooter and back onto a chair, since the scooters rock unpleasantly when the train is moving, no matter which way they face. It hurts. There were plenty of other chairs available, my scooter was now as out of the way as possible, and I felt I'd seemed approachable enough. The other woman looked stony and cold, so I took that to mean she wasn't interested in any sort of conversation and went back to reading my book.
She stayed on her scooter.

As we came up to her station, she started to talk about how uncomfortable the ride was. I indicated the available chairs, but she said she was getting off now. I was, I'll admit, completely nonplussed and confused. She started to lecture me on how inconsiderate I was. How she always pulled in facing the direction of travel (giving the indication that that was so it was out of the way), how her severely injured back was now in so much pain. She put a lot of emphasis on the severely injured back.

I'll admit, I couldn't think of anything to say. I just sat there like a deer in headlights and took it.

But honestly, looking back - what was I supposed to have done? Other than starting out by having my scooter parked as out of the way as possible, I can't think of anything I could have done better. I put it there as soon as I realised the extra space was needed, anyway.

If she'd wanted to stay on her scooter but facing the direction of travel, she could have managed it and I'd have helped if she'd asked. If she'd wanted me to put my scooter across the direction of travel, I'd have tried - but she'd have to have spoken up. Without her saying anything, how could I have known the arrangement didn't suit her needs?

I'm certainly not going to sit on my scooter during the trip. I deliberately travel off peak so that I'm not taking up needed space, and I'm NOT going to put myself in further pain just because someone thinks that 'if she can walk, she's not that disabled'.

Eh, it just bugs me. I don't understand what she wanted.

[Sylvia727]

The most common form of fraud that I notice is people who do have a family member eligible for handicapped parking placards or plates, but who use those items- and parking spaces- when that family member is nowhere to be found.

Although please be aware that the twenty-something woman who bounds out of the car and skips into the restaurant might be with a handicapped individual, and the placard is not for her own benefit. My ninety-four-year-old grandmother carries her placard in her purse, since she doesn't have her own car, and when I travel with her I get the dirtiest looks. This matches up with the 'please be considerate of invisible disabilities' as well, since Grandma can walk fine but loses her balance suddenly and frequently for no apparant reason.

I need to apply for a handicapped tag or permanent license plate (whichever one they give to people with Autism). I'm not looking forward to this as the tag/plate will be for my daughter who is Autistic. She looks normal too. However, she's a runner.

Chiming in on the 'get a leash' bandwagon. I made my rugrats hold my belt loops or the hem of my shirt, but if I had been their primary caregiver I would have leashed them, no qualms. Anyone who disagrees can just push off.

Once I overheard a woman speaking to her daughter in a public restroom. "Don't use the handicapped stall, go to a regular one!" I'm thinking, go mom! Then I hear "It's okay for me to be in this handicapped stall, since there are two handicapped stalls." Uhm....double standard, mom.

At one point, my mom had a six-year-old, a five-year-old, and a newborn. She always used the handicapped stall so that she could keep all three of us with her. So perhaps this girl had been raised that way as well? She's definitely getting mixed signals now, though. The mom's justification makes me think she was really speaking to everyone else in the bathroom, rather than to the daughter.

Well, I had a run-in with another disabled person a couple of days ago. Entitlement bitch, I think. Sure, I had a bit of error in the situation myself, but I think she handled it much worse than I did.

<snip>

Eh, it just bugs me. I don't understand what she wanted.

I read your post twice and I don't understand either. "I'm in pain and it's your fault for only being averagely considerate!" Seriously, it makes no sense. Sometimes I forget and leave my shopping cart blocking an aisle, but I move it the moment I realize someone else wants through. It doesn't make me an asshole. I think she was just in pain and wanted an excuse to make everyone else as miserable as she was.

[Saydrah]

Sounds to me like she's just used to being the only PWD riding transit, and was just peeved that she had company.

[Seshat]

I read your post twice and I don't understand either. "I'm in pain and it's your fault for only being averagely considerate!"
<snip>
I think she was just in pain and wanted an excuse to make everyone else as miserable as she was.

Thank you - both of you.

If she wanted to make someone else as miserable as she was, she could simply have taken away my tramadol! Honestly, did she think my scooter is just for fun?

. . . probably she did. Or she simply isn't as considerate as she thinks I'm supposed to be. (sigh)