The Burning Holy Books Saga

[fireheart17]

OK, I'm putting these all in the same thread since they're about the same topic-roughly.

Long story short: Pastor Terry Jones wanted to burn the Koran (he stopped voluntarily). A group in South Africa wanted to retaliate by burning the Bible (they were stopped by a high court decision). And an atheist in Australia decided to shut them both up by smoking pages of BOTH the Koran and the Bible (this guy posted his stunt on youtube >.<). :eek:

The Koran-burning attempt (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/terry-joness-koran-fire-protest-plan-burns-out/story-e6frg6so-1225918479142)
The African Retaliation (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/court-bans-bible-burning-after-koran-threat/story-e6frea73-1225918667509)
The Holy Smoker (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/queensland-lawyer-alex-stewart-smokes-pages-from-the-koran-and-bible/story-e6frg12c-1225920647346)

Ok I gave them titles that are probably stupid. But it pretty much sums up the entire situation.

Your thoughts?

[draggar]

I can't verify when this happened but with all the cameras you'd think there would be a race to get it up quickly (I think it was in NYC, although anyone can get NYPD shirts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OClIeQtMaoU&skipcontrinter=1

At least the smoker is willing to show that it's all the same (in their own way).

[Kimmik]

Personally I think disrespecting anyone's Faith is the lowest form, especially destroying a book that is considered holy to some. Torah's, Bibles, Qurans, and so on. I think that our country is disgraceful in the fact that in this day and age we piss all over anything that is not like us. Head Coverings, turbans, styles of Dress, Gods worshiped, who people love, what makes a normal family and on and on.

[Ghel]

I don't see what the big deal is. Objects have the meaning that we give them. If somebody wants to burn their own legally-acquired copy of a book, I don't see a problem with that. Especially in our information age, you can't destroy an idea by burning a book.

OTOH, I have to wonder what a person, such as this Terry Jones fellow, hopes to accomplish by announcing that they're going to destroy a few (comparitively few, that is, since there's likely hundreds of millions of copies of the Koran in existence) copies of some other group's holy book. As far as I can tell, it's just an attention-seeking ploy, with "meaning" tacked on afterwards.

The real problem here is that a particular group is trying to force outsiders to treat their religious symbol with the same reverence that they do. I can accept the fact that the follower respects the book, but that doesn't mean I have to respect it. I don't have to treat a copy of the Koran (or the Bible) with any more respect than I do a copy of Twilight.

[Hobbs]

<snip>

And this you're no better than the Terry Jones fellow. At least he has a (bigoted) reason for being disrespectful.

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean you should do it. Would you also support the WBC "Thank God for IED's at a soldier's funeral? Don't answer that...I think I know the answer.

[Rageaholic]

What I fail to understand is why that Koran burning nutcase getting all this national attention. More importantly, how did he get all this attention?

If he hadn't been given all the attention from the media, no one would have known or cared about this clown.

[HYHYBT]

The real problem here is that a particular group is trying to force outsiders to treat their religious symbol with the same reverence that they do.Not at all. There is a vast difference between merely not respecting a symbol, and going out of your way to publicize to the world your hatred and contempt (real or not) of that symbol and, because that's how symbols work, by extension all those who value it.

Ok I gave them titles that are probably stupid. But it pretty much sums up the entire situation.

Your thoughts?Just more proof, as if any were needed, that nutcases come in all varieties.

[Ghel]

There is a vast difference between merely not respecting a symbol, and going out of your way to publicize to the world your hatred and contempt (real or not) of that symbol and, because that's how symbols work, by extension all those who value it.
Hating a symbol suggests that you place some sort of value on it. It's a different type of value, sure.

Personally, I place the same value on the Bible or Koran or Tao Te Ching as any other book. No more, no less. So I would be as likely to burn a Bible, etc., as I would any other book. Which is very unlikely. Nor am I likely to get upset is someone else burns said book, as long as it is their own property (they didn't steal it).

Here in the US, we have a number of rights and freedoms. One of those is the freedom of speech, which allows people to publicly burn books that they disagree with. One of those is NOT the right to never be offended.

[Greenday]

Go ahead then. Buy a ton of bibles or Qu'rans and light them up. It's obviously no big deal since they mean nothing to you.

But you won't do it. Even if money wasn't an issue, it wouldn't matter. You wouldn't do it because other people put value into those books. You're pissing on their beliefs.

Burning these books is an attempt to piss on other people's beliefs, not show what your beliefs are.

[blas87]

There are people all over the world who are constantly burning or defacing anything that represents America, and then others get their panties in a bind when someone in America wants to burn another religion's holy book?

Hypocritical, much?

Not that I agree for one second with what that yoohoo was planning. I think the guy's a fucking retard who shouldn't have been given any attention. It was probably just an idle threat for attention and to make a name for himself.

[Hobbs]

There are people all over the world who are constantly burning or defacing anything that represents America, and then others get their panties in a bind when someone in America wants to burn another religion's holy book?

Hypocritical, much?

Not that I agree for one second with what that yoohoo was planning. I think the guy's a fucking retard who shouldn't have been given any attention. It was probably just an idle threat for attention and to make a name for himself.
How is it hypocritical? They're not the ones burning and defacing American symbols.

[Ginger Tea]

I'm surprised this topic didnt show up sooner, I thought about posting about it myself when I heard about it a few days ago, but as it was linkied to 9/11 I wasnt sure if it was against the TOS without reading em again.

book burnings no matter the subject should be done with your own property, If he wanted to burn 100 korans, I hope he has the dosh for 100 of em, having said that, as it was 9/11 motivated and to be done on said day, why the F didnt he just donate the money he would have set up in smoke, to one of the many fund raisers linked to it?

way back when people wanted to burn as many copies of the satanic verses as possible, book shops didn't care as long as said books were purchaced and not burnt in the shop.
I myself read that book as my father purchaced a copy to read to find out what the fuss was about, we both read it and found it to be a rather bland story, at the time I didn't know about the "thou shalt not depecit the prophet mohammed" bit so I don't recall if he did or not.
so all these book burnings just netted mr Rushdie a few more notes to spend whilst in hiding

[Talon]

Go ahead then. Buy a ton of bibles or Qu'rans and light them up.

But you won't do it. Even if money wasn't an issue, it wouldn't matter. You wouldn't do it because other people put value into those books. You're pissing on their beliefs.

I wouldn't burn a book, any book. Because the act of burning a book is that of a coward, of someone who fears or is threatened by its contents. I loathe the violence and misogyny of the Quaran and the Old Testament, and I will criticize them. But I will not destroy them.

There are people all over the world who are constantly burning or defacing anything that represents America, and then others get their panties in a bind when someone in America wants to burn another religion's holy book?

Hypocritical, much?


Hear hear!

Not that I agree for one second with what that yoohoo was planning. I think the guy's a fucking retard who shouldn't have been given any attention. It was probably just an idle threat for attention and to make a name for himself.

Again I agree. But you gotta admire the guy for his ability to play the entire world for fools. Look! All you need to do to get worldwide media attention is to threaten to burn some books. Imagine by how much his clown's followers will swell?

On a sobering note, as of this morning, I heard on the news that 2 people were killed in riots in Afghanistan, over the book burning that didn't happen.

I can't decide who's the bigger douchebag: the non-book-burning pastor, or the hypersensitive hair-trigger-rioters in the muslim world who seriously need to Get The Fuck Over Themselves. One thing is for sure, this episode was a giant victory for douchbaggery :(

[Rageaholic]

I say the bigger douchebags were the ones who were killing people over the non book burning. You're right, they are way too hypersensitive over there. Anybody who's going to kill because someone offended them needs an asylum.

[Ghel]

Go ahead then. Buy a ton of bibles or Qu'rans and light them up. It's obviously no big deal since they mean nothing to you.

But you won't do it.
I don't see why not. I've got several old copies of the Bible that I was given as gifts when I was younger. I wouldn't mind parting with one of them. I bet I have some other books that I don't read any more that I could add to the fire. Maybe I'll roast some marshmallows this evening.

I can't decide who's the bigger douchebag: the non-book-burning pastor, or the hypersensitive hair-trigger-rioters in the muslim world who seriously need to Get The Fuck Over Themselves.
Hear hear!


There may have been a time when burning books was done to squelch the ideas contained inside. But in today's world, books are mass-produced, available in electronic form or as audio books. You can't destroy ideas, and so book burning loses any impact it might have had in earlier times. My suggestion is to treat it as unimportant.

[Hyena Dandy]

The thing about the hair-trigger rioters getting upset over burning books is that, in Islam, the Quran is not a holy book the same way the Bible is in Christianity. While many Christians treat the Bible as the literal word of God, nothing in the Bible claims to be a word-for-word transcription from the heavens. Whereas in Islam, the Koran is what Mohammed wrote, basically by dictation. Which is why you're not supposed to translate the Koran either. Desecrating the Koran is not like desecating the Bible. Its more like desecating a holy relic. If you're a Christian sect that has a holy relic. Every Koran, essentially, is the original, which explains why they're so prized.

I do agree with the confusion over anyone representing the prophet Muhammed, since the proscription against images is to prevent people worshipping the images of prophets instead of the God they were a prophet for.

Also, they don't seem to care about Jesus, or Noah being represented, even though the Koran says they are prophets too. But I may be a little confused on that matter. Does anyone here speak Arabic and have one?

[Hobbs]

<snip>

"What does the diary tell you that it doesn't tell us?"

"It tells me, that goose-stepping morons like yourself should try reading books instead of burning them!" -Dr. Henry Jones Sr.

[HYHYBT]

ere in the US, we have a number of rights and freedoms. One of those is the freedom of speech, which allows people to publicly burn books that they disagree with. One of those is NOT the right to never be offended.You say that as if I had implied otherwise.

[IDrinkaRum]

Muslims in Great Britian burn the American Flag to protest Terry Jones' "Burn a Koran Day" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liqVnJNRX4Y&feature=player_embedded)

At one point, they chant "Burn, Burn Freedom" and "Democracy Go To Hell"

[Hyena Dandy]

Did someone tell them he called it off? 'Cause I think he called it off.

[Talon]

Muslims in Great Britian burn the American Flag to protest Terry Jones' "Burn a Koran Day" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liqVnJNRX4Y&feature=player_embedded)

At one point, they chant "Burn, Burn Freedom" and "Democracy Go To Hell"

Oh for crying out load. Do spiders have palms? I think I need to facepalm myself with all 8 of their legs.

I take it back, I know exactly who the biggest douchbags are in this whole circus.

[crashhelmet]

Ghel, the problem here is he's not burning a book to simply burn a book. He's not doing it so that he can roast marshmallows or keep his house warm. He's doing it to make a political and theological statement. He is doing it with the sole purpose of pissing off as many Muslims as he can.

Correction... He was planning to do it all for those reasons.

CH

[Ginger Tea]

Intent is as good as the execution of the plan, it worked just implying he would do it

[fireheart17]

I might also be able to shed a little bit of light as well on why there's such a huge stink over the Koran but not so much on the Bible.

Bible-there are many different variations on the Bible, as well as Christian sects. So which Bible would you burn? The Roman Catholic Bible? The Anglican One? The Greek Orthodox Bible? And to further add to that, there are different practices within each religious sect-Seventh Day Adventists view Saturday as their Sabbath, instead of Sunday. Mormons wear certain undergarments after a certain point. Amish dress really conservatively and live a different lifestyle. Roman Catholics go through Communion. The list goes on.

Koran-there is only one version of the Koran. While there are three sects of Islam (I think?), all of them follow the exact same book. While there may be some slight differences, all in all, they practice the same beliefs. Shia and Sunnis will both dress up in the hijab. Shia and Sunnis will both celebrate Ramadan and so on.

As for my own thoughts towards both books in general? Pretty simple: I don't practice a religion, however I do respect the right of others to do so as long as it does not interfere with my day-to-day life.

[jedimaster91]

Mormons wear certain undergarments after a certain point.

And for a bit of irony, you know what some of us do with old, worn-out garments? We burn 'em.

[KnitShoni]

There are people all over the world who are constantly burning or defacing anything that represents America, and then others get their panties in a bind when someone in America wants to burn another religion's holy book?



Because there are no Muslims in America, right? Only Christians represent America?

[protege]

There are people all over the world who are constantly burning or defacing anything that represents America, and then others get their panties in a bind when someone in America wants to burn another religion's holy book?

Hypocritical, much?


That's exactly how I see it too. They're pissed because someone would dare roast their "sacred cow." Yet, they have no problem with attacking *other* people for *their* beliefs.

Think about it--I'm sure everyone remembers when a Danish newspaper had printed a depiction of Mohammad, or when the creators of South Park received death threats for a similar reason. Anyone want to guess what types of cartoons show up in various Middle Eastern newspapers? Usually they're bashing Western religions, or Israel, always with unflattering images. Also not helping, are the photos of various flags being burnt during protests--usually the American flag is burnt. Why is all of that OK, but the minute something of *theirs* is desecrated (or the threat made to do so), they feel the need to get upset? What makes their religion or their ideas so damn special? These twits need to get off their "high camels" and get back to reality. They are no better or worse than the rest of us.

Back to South Park for a minute--Isaac Hayes, for years, had been a part of that show. The creators went after every social group you can think of--Jews, Christians, Arabs, rich people, poor people, etc. to name a few. He had no problem with that. But, as soon as Scientology took its turn on the spit, he got pissed, and left the show. Again, hypocritical much?

[Hobbs]

I think this image is appropriate

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/failflagburning.jpg

[guywithashovel]

Back to South Park for a minute--Isaac Hayes, for years, had been a part of that show. The creators went after every social group you can think of--Jews, Christians, Arabs, rich people, poor people, etc. to name a few. He had no problem with that. But, as soon as Scientology took its turn on the spit, he got pissed, and left the show. Again, hypocritical much?

I remember that. I guess then when it comes to religion bashing, it's all fun and games until someone attacks your religion.

[Hyena Dandy]

I remember that. I guess then when it comes to religion bashing, it's all fun and games until someone attacks your religion.

Although, it seems in some ways like it was less that he got pissed and left, and more that the scientology organizationers get pissed and told him to leave.

[Kaylyn]

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean you should do it. Would you also support the WBC "Thank God for IED's at a soldier's funeral? Don't answer that...I think I know the answer.

I know this was directed at Ghel, but I've got my own opinion on this matter.

Yes, I support the WBC's right to carry such signage at soldiers' funerals. Even though they've protested the funeral of a family member who was a soldier with such signage. Do I agree with their views? Absolutely not. Does their behavior sicken and enrage me? Definitely. But I support their right to do it.

I support our right to burn flags, crosses, holy books, and protest in general. In fact, I thank the gods I was fortunate enough to be born in a country where such freedom of speech is allowed. It means that I'm allowed to have my own opinions, and I won't be executed because I dare to have opinions that differ from those in power.

Now, something such as the Klan burning a cross on an individual's property is another thing, as actual crimes are being committed, such as trespassing on their property and the fact that such an act is meant as a direct threat of further harm to the individual, thus constituting assault. But burning a Bible as a theological statement? Go for it.

"But, Kaylyn, you're not Christian! If it was your own faith, you'd feel differently!" Fine. Feel free to burn a pentagram (man, that would look pretty fucking cool, actually!), or a triquetra, or a statue of Bast, if you see fit, as those are all symbols that mean a great deal to me. In the immortal words of The Dude, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

One does not have to agree with the acts committed in a protest to agree with the right to participate in said protest, provided individuals are not harmed or assaulted.

[Hobbs]

Now, something such as the Klan burning a cross on an individual's property is another thing, as actual crimes are being committed, such as trespassing on their property and the fact that such an act is meant as a direct threat of further harm to the individual, thus constituting assault. But burning a Bible as a theological statement? Go for it.

Actually, the KKK burning a cross is constituted as a hate crime, as it is targeting an individual or a group of people for the sole purpose of soliciting a harmful response. The same goes for burning the Koran or the Bible; you're not doing it to "make a theological statement" but as a symbol of hate against the people who worship the religions that the books symbolize.

I once stated (not sure if it was here) that when I put on my uniform, that I want it to still stand for freedom. Well, I also want it to stand for justice; social as well as legal. A society based on diversity and inclusiveness shouldn't tolerate those who would hate members of that society based upon their race, creed, national origin, religion or sexual preference.

[draco664]

Who was it who said "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"?

[Rapscallion]

I think that was Voltaire. My version runs along the lines of I'll defend to your death your right to free speech... :p

Rapscallion

[crazylegs]

Muslims in Great Britian burn the American Flag to protest Terry Jones' "Burn a Koran Day" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liqVnJNRX4Y&feature=player_embedded)

At one point, they chant "Burn, Burn Freedom" and "Democracy Go To Hell"

These are not your run of the mill, moderate muslims.

They are extremists. In the same way that the book burning pastor is an extremist so is this very small group of men.

Muslims are a very protective group - they do whatever they can to protect their religion and the perception of their religion. In all likelyhood none of these angry young men attend a mosque where a properly trained religious leader actualy gives a sermon; it is far more likely that they merely meet in someone's front room and discuss their views.

You will notice that the AYM (angry young man) who speaks on the handheld microphone about 2 1/2 minutes in centres entirely on the deaths caused by coalition munitions. This is entirely typical of a person who is being radicalised - they fail to even acknowledge that the attacks and deaths caused by the taliban far outweigh the deaths caused by the coalition.

I've rambled, but what I'm trying to state is that these men do not represent the islamic faith any more than the pastor represents the christian faith.

[blas87]

Aww, looky here......France is trying to pass a law forbidding traditional Muslim attire.

Wow, really? Yeah. but I'm sure somehow America is still the big asshole of the world. We can ignore what France does. We must take down America because they are all stupid hate mongering fatsos!

[crazylegs]

Aww, looky here......France is trying to pass a law forbidding traditional Muslim attire.

Wow, really? Yeah. but I'm sure somehow America is still the big asshole of the world. We can ignore what France does. We must take down America because they are all stupid hate mongering fatsos!

Actually they're not.

The hijab isn't traditional muslim dress - it's traditional to some countries and cultures.

In fact some islamic contries have already banned it themselves.

[blas87]

There was a bomb thread called in to the Eifel Tower in anger about the ban.....that doesn't seem very tolerant of the ban.

[the_std]

There was a bomb thread called in to the Eifel Tower in anger about the ban.....that doesn't seem very tolerant of the ban.

Oh no. Extremists doing extreme things. But that doesn't represent the group has a whole.

[blas87]

Then I suggest people take back their statements of calling America a hate mongering country (as I read in another thread). There are some real duds out there, anywhere and everywhere. Just because there are some ignorant, closed minded yoohoos who go around threatening to do outlandish things if x doesn't happen or y happens, does not represent America in general.

[the_std]

It's true that those things do not represent America as a whole. But, and I say this as someone who does not live in the States, when the majority of what other nations see of your country is hate and anger and fear and all of these awful things that have been brought up here, how can they possibly know anything else? Your anger should not be directed at those people who see these things and call America hate-mongering. Your anger should be directed at the people in your own country who project this image to everyone else.

I see so little of America, Americans, and their achievements broadcast in a positive light. There are so few instances of good and nice and happy in the media when your country displays itself to other countries. It makes me sad, because I know that that can't possibly be the truth, cannot possible represent you, the average person in your country. But there is not very much available evidence to the contrary.

[KnitShoni]

I see so little of America, Americans, and their achievements broadcast in a positive light. There are so few instances of good and nice and happy in the media when your country displays itself to other countries. It makes me sad, because I know that that can't possibly be the truth, cannot possible represent you, the average person in your country. But there is not very much available evidence to the contrary.

That news doesn't sell.

[Greenday]

It's true that those things do not represent America as a whole. But, and I say this as someone who does not live in the States, when the majority of what other nations see of your country is hate and anger and fear and all of these awful things that have been brought up here, how can they possibly know anything else? Your anger should not be directed at those people who see these things and call America hate-mongering. Your anger should be directed at the people in your own country who project this image to everyone else.

I see so little of America, Americans, and their achievements broadcast in a positive light. There are so few instances of good and nice and happy in the media when your country displays itself to other countries. It makes me sad, because I know that that can't possibly be the truth, cannot possible represent you, the average person in your country. But there is not very much available evidence to the contrary.

Kinda like how when we see stuff about Canada, it's about hockey, snow, and people going there just to get prescription meds. Or how the UK wants to take everyone's rights away and leave them all defenseless. Etc. etc.

The loudest people are the ones who make the news and moderate people generally aren't loud because they aren't morons.

[the_std]

Kinda like how when we see stuff about Canada, it's about hockey, snow, and people going there just to get prescription meds.

We know that. I know how people perceive Canadians. But I don't complain because I know that people can see us however they want, but I'm not going to complain as I won't let them affect my quality of life. If the public perception of my country gets negative enough to the point where other countries start using it as justification to do angry, hurtful things to us, then I am definitely going to actively find a way to change that public perception of my country.

[blas87]

Why is it ok to bash Americans and paint them all the same because you never "hear" of anything good about America, but never ok to pick on any other country? I could say Canadians and Europeans and Australians are all a bunch of anti-American high and mighty hoity toities with their heads shoved up their asses, but that's not correct, just as it's incorrect to say all Americans are fat lazy stupid hateful slobs. Having said that, I also don't always hear about positive things in other countries as well. This whole world is a damn hell hole. America is far from perfect as is everywhere else.

I often wonder why America even helps anyone anymore, and that goes far back. If we knew back then that every other country would try to make us all out to be stupid and hate mongering assholes, perhaps we shouldn't have helped anyone out in any wars and just defended ourselves and ourselves alone. It's not like anyone helps us in natural disasters or attacks on America, unless they just want us on their side because they know we can help them win their own fights.

I agree that America has been nosy and interfering with a lot of things throughout the years, but the times that it has benefited other countries, a little more thanks and a little less stereotyping would be appreciated. If Americans gave their lives to save your country's ass, you should be a little more appreciative that these stupid fat hateful slobs helped you.

[Hobbs]

It's not like anyone helps us in natural disasters

Oh really?

Here's some countries that "didn't help" during Hurricane Katrina:

Afghanistan, Armenia, Austria, Bahrain, Belgium, Boznia and Herzegovina, Brunei, Cambodia, Canada, People's Republic of China, Republic of China, Colombia, Cuba, Czech Republic, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Equador, Egypt, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guatemala, Honduras, Iceland, Indonesia, India, Iraq, Republic of Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, S. Korea, Kuwait, Lithuania, Malaysia, Mexico, Mongolia, Nepal, N. Zealand, Poland, Portugal, Quatar, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Sovenia, Sweden, Thailand, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Venezuela, Vietnam, Yemen.

Aid offered by international organizations:

European Union (Requested by the US)
NATO
OPEC
Organization of American States
United Nations (UNICEF, WHO, FAO, UNHCR)
International Medical Corps
International Federation of the Red Cross/Crescent
Habitat for Humanity International

That's not even a full list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina#Actual _funds_used). Of the $800+ million USD donated to the US, only $40 million has been used. Some wasn't even accepted.

Also note that, for some of these countries, the US has had bad relations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War) with them in the past (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Understatement).

[the_std]

Why is it ok to bash Americans and paint them all the same because you never "hear" of anything good about America, but never ok to pick on any other country? [snip] Having said that, I also don't always hear about positive things in other countries as well. This whole world is a damn hell hole. America is far from perfect as is everywhere else.

It's not okay to bash Americans and paint them all with the same brush. But you can't direct all of your outrage to the bashers. A large part of it is how your country presents itself to the world, and then gets mad when other people react to those presentations. It doesn't really matter what people say about other countries unless those reputations damage the way the rest of the world react with that country. And if those reputations do damage that country, it's that country's obligation to change its image and help reduce the amount of damage it is suffering because of it.

I often wonder why America even helps anyone anymore, and that goes far back. If we knew back then that every other country would try to make us all out to be stupid and hate mongering assholes, perhaps we shouldn't have helped anyone out in any wars and just defended ourselves and ourselves alone. It's not like anyone helps us in natural disasters or attacks on America, unless they just want us on their side because they know we can help them win their own fights.

That is a load of crap. Your country has received boatloads of support from other countries, including many who don't have much to give at all. Despite your country's reputation, people are still willing to help when other people are suffering. I know that my own country has given generously when your country has been in need, and it's nearly insulting that you'd say that none of us ever help you.

I agree that America has been nosy and interfering with a lot of things throughout the years, but the times that it has benefited other countries, a little more thanks and a little less stereotyping would be appreciated. If Americans gave their lives to save your country's ass, you should be a little more appreciative that these stupid fat hateful slobs helped you.

Your leaders of your country have greatly overstepped their boundaries and have now passed on the unfair consequences of those decisions to you and your countrymen. And almost every country in the world gives to save others. If you look at world aide maps, or statistics, you can see that every country gives just about everything they can afford, and in some cases, more than they can afford, to the causes they deem fit. But if you're talking about giving your lives in the Middle East, it's arguable to say that those lives are wasted because the cause wasn't necessary. Getting angry at the people who live in those war-torn countries for being angry because they've been fed misinformation from both sides, telling them to be grateful for everything you've given them, is a stuck up idea and shows very little understanding for what they've gone through.

[Sage Blackthorn]

OK, I'm putting these all in the same thread since they're about the same topic-roughly.

Long story short: Pastor Terry Jones wanted to burn the Koran (he stopped voluntarily). A group in South Africa wanted to retaliate by burning the Bible (they were stopped by a high court decision). And an atheist in Australia decided to shut them both up by smoking pages of BOTH the Koran and the Bible (this guy posted his stunt on youtube >.<). :eek:

The Koran-burning attempt (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/terry-joness-koran-fire-protest-plan-burns-out/story-e6frg6so-1225918479142)
The African Retaliation (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/breaking-news/court-bans-bible-burning-after-koran-threat/story-e6frea73-1225918667509)
The Holy Smoker (http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/queensland-lawyer-alex-stewart-smokes-pages-from-the-koran-and-bible/story-e6frg12c-1225920647346)

Ok I gave them titles that are probably stupid. But it pretty much sums up the entire situation.

Your thoughts?

After reviewing all three articles, here are my thoughts:

First off concerning Terry Jones, I noticed a few things the make me suspect he incendiary plan to burn copies of the Koran was not for any sort of protest against those involve in the 9/11 incident.

The article states that his son said he was:

“pleased because of the platform” gained by the book-burning plan. He added that the pastor has received more than 100 death threats.

So my thought is that this is a publicity stunt by a man seeking attention for his small and relatively insignificant church. The media fell for it, and he got the attention he wanted.

Part of that attention was in the form of Mohammed Vawda of South Africa staging what was ostensibly a "counter-protest" to express his outrage....consequently garnering media attention for himself as well.

As for the Professor from QUT in Australia, why he felt the need to condemn both of them, I think, is mostly likely because he thinks both men to be deluded in the first place and have no rational reason for trying to incite members of Islam by burning the Koran and then counter protesting the burning by torching a bunch of Bibles. Note that he's an "an assistant organiser with a group called Brisbane Atheists."

In conclusion I find the whole incident to be about respect and tolerance.....or rather the lack of it on the parts of the three people mentioned in the articles. I also see people being easily lead around. One small, insiginificant preacher out in the middle of B.F. Florida has been elevated to being known by the world. If he wanted attention, he got it. 100 death threats may qualify him as a minor celebrity according to pop-culture standards.
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As for the subject of burning books. I'm against it. I find it disrespectful.
Burningof flags in protest. I'm against. I find it disrespectful.
Destroying object considered Holy by one or more religions. I'm against it. I find it disrespectful.

The thing about all of these actions is that they reflect poorly on the person doing them, whether I think the Bible or The Koran are the unadulterated "Word Of God" or not, it shows a person's lack of respect for another's belief's to destroy them. It's as if they are saying "Your beliefs are not valid, only my beliefs are valid." Burning a flag, any flag, is showing disrespect to the nation of that flag. It's as if the person is saying "Your nation is beneath me, I do not respect you."

How can you have peace without mutual respect? How can you relate to another person if you do not acknowledge their fundamental right to believe as they choose (and thereby through example assert your own right to believe as you choose). Now, of course, there is the concept that respect is earned and not given. I agree with this to a point. When two people who don't know each other first meet, it is proper ettiquette to at least try NOT to be disrespectful to them. It's just plain stupid to set out to intentionally piss someone off.....at least if your goal is to try and get along with them. If your goal is to provoke them into a fight, then disrespecting their beliefs is one of the more tried and true ways to do so.

Which brings us to being manipulated.....If you spend your time preaching that one group is "evil" (call them "unbelievers", or "uncivilized", or "savage", or "barbarians"..etc.), and that it's in the interest of "peace" to exterminate them "for the common good", as I see so many "good Christians" preaching out against Islam these days, then to do something designed to piss that particular group off, to elicit a predictable response, and then the preacher can jump up and down and point and say "See! See! I Told You!" in order to agrandize himself...... The article on Terry Jones stated:

Pastor Jones, dressed in a dark suit, said at a press conference that he had never read the book he intended to burn. “I have never read the Koran,” he said. His opposition to the book, he said, was rooted in his belief that it doesn't contain the truths of the Bible.

It is my opinion based on what I've read that "Pastor Jones" is playing the media, and the world who listen's to it, for fools to catapult himself into the limelight as some sort of holy crusader.

[blas87]

I don't agree with the Iraq war at all. But I do sincerely believe that everyone should pray for the soliders. They love this country and our people so much that they'd fight even the stupidest war to make sure that everyone is safe. And that includes people in other countries as well. I just wanted to make that clear. I have NEVER been in favor of this war. But I will not let our soldiers go without my full support. They give up practically everything to make sure that we can sleep safe. They even fight for the ignorant fools who live in this country who constantly go about flapping their gums/fingers bashing this country.

You can call me whatever you want, I really could care less. I am not some inbred freakshow who has my entire property covered with American flags and only buys American and bashes anyone who isn't American. But I am disgusted at the amount of people who think America is just a shithole full of fat, lazy, stupid slobs. No one is perfect, do you hear me, no one. No one, nowhere. I may get feisty and throw some really lowball insults on how America shouldn't help anyone. I get very upset over how it's practically a sport and acceptable form of entertainment to bash America and its citizens. It must be something like my mother once said, people who are always making fun of others just can't face their own flaws. I wonder what yours are? Do you dare say, or are you just that perfect?

I will not stand to watch my country be bashed, in person and online, often from people who have never even been here. I've never been to any other country but Canada. It is not fair in my opinion that it is so acceptable to bash America and everything about her, but if you start bashing any other country and it's people, that's it, fire's started.

[Hobbs]

<snip>

I don't see anyone calling you that Blas, nor anyone saying that one shouldn't support us troops. What I do see, however, are people who only see the bad side of the US, perpetuated by not only international media but our own (Thank you, Faux). It's no wonder that, on even as informed as most of us are here, that some prejudice would be perpetuated by posters. Some people at times have even mentioned things that Snopes has dis-counted.

One thing I'd like to know...where is all of this "anti-soldier" movement? I have never...and I mean never, been accosted or accused of anything because of this uniform.

[the_std]

I have NEVER been in favor of this war. But I will not let our soldiers go without my full support. They give up practically everything to make sure that we can sleep safe. They even fight for the ignorant fools who live in this country who constantly go about flapping their gums/fingers bashing this country.

You can call me whatever you want, I really could care less. [/snip] I get very upset over how it's practically a sport and acceptable form of entertainment to bash America and its citizens. It must be something like my mother once said, people who are always making fun of others just can't face their own flaws. I wonder what yours are? Do you dare say, or are you just that perfect?

I will not stand to watch my country be bashed, in person and online, often from people who have never even been here. I've never been to any other country but Canada. It is not fair in my opinion that it is so acceptable to bash America and everything about her, but if you start bashing any other country and it's people, that's it, fire's started.

Honestly, this whole thing is full of assumptions. I have no idea where you're getting most of this. I don't know anywhere where bashing America is a sport, or done for fun. Yeah, in my country, if you guys do something dumb, we'll point it out. We'll do that for ANY country. And supporting the troops? Where the hell did that come from? Who is talking about them?

Do you dare say, or are you just that perfect?

This is pretty insulting by itself. I have not once, not once in this thread, bashed America or Americans. I am simply pointing out that there is more to the problem than people making fun of your country. If you want to go ahead and bash my country, you go right ahead. We aren't perfect either. And my opinion of my country does not base itself on what people who are not a part of it, people who don't know what it's like from the inside, and people of that ilk think. If it did, that would be a pretty poor reflection of my country's self-esteem as a whole. But if it is as excessive as you think it is (something of which I've seen very little evidence), then all I'm saying is that maybe you should take it as a sign that your country needs fixing. There are things that need to change. Not jump right back on them and say, "If you bash my country, I hate you!" Maybe it's time to say, "You're bashing my country, based on emotion, not rationality. But maybe there are is valid basis for your emotions, but nothing will be resolved until we can talk about it logically."

Then again, that probably won't work because those who bash a country, truly bash it, insult it and degrade it with no logical underpinnings, with no evidence and do it just to get people riled up, those people are assholes. They don't care if your country is good or bad. They just like making fun of people. They're not going to be influenced by reason or logic, and you shouldn't take them seriously because, again, they're assholes.

What I see is not true bashing. It's not the "fat lazy redneck slob" stuff you seem to be getting. I see a lot of criticism of your country's choices and policies. You know what that is? That's healthy. Without constant conflict, how the hell are we supposed to grow, to improve, to move on and past the bad stuff that's around right now? And, to be really frank, that's what it seems you're reacting to. Americans as a whole are known to be prone to "my country, love it or leave it"-itis. But no one has to love your country. It is good to question. So I'd like to see a response from you fueled my logic and reason, with evidence and arguments, rather than "I HATE EVERYONE WHO SAYS BAD STUFF ABOUT US", please.

[blas87]

I do not "hate everyone who says bad things about us" as you assume.

I'm in the minority here, and I'll accept it as it. I have every right to speak up for my country when I feel people are bashing it. And yes, saying that you hardly ever hear anything positive come out of the US is bashing it. You can't sugarcoat it and cover it up by saying "I'm not bashing your country, every country has problems, we'd never grow and nothing would change without problems."

I am defending where I live and the people who I live with, even if we don't always agree or even feel the same about anything. I am thankful for the rights that I do have and for being able to sleep safely.

The troops thing? Well, I had to defend myself and make it crystal clear that I am completely against this war in the first place, since it was being assumed that I was in favor of every time America has stepped on some toes and intervened or started something that turned out to be a horrible idea. I had to add that to make it even more clear that I support my troops no matter what we get stuck in. I even stated before that I am completely aware that America has stepped on toes and gotten us in some real trouble before. I'm sure if I had been alive during Vietnam, I would have been against that as well. I feel a lot of similarities between the two.

Having said that, I am backing out. I have taken the topic way off base, and I cannot debate this without getting upset, and I will not risk getting in trouble because of allowing people to get under my skin. I am admitting I cannot debate in a mature or adult-like manner anymore without breaking rules. So everyone feel free to go back to the original topic at hand. I apologize for my drift.

[HYHYBT]

That's a shame, because I'd LOVE to hear how you came up with And yes, saying that you hardly ever hear anything positive come out of the US is bashing it. I've heard "bashing" defined so loosely that it covered saying anything negative, but never before heard anyone claim that merely saying that most of what you hear is negative, rather than making disparaging remarks yourself, is bashing.

[VacuousPlatypus]

Who was it who said "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it"?

Actually this was written by Beatrice Hall as her summary of Voltaire's attitudes in her work Friends of Voltaire (1906)

I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to mis-attribute this quote to Voltaire :rolleyes: