Prostitution

[the_std]

Or, rather, the stigma against it.

Yes, I know it's been used as a way to abuse women and men, boys and girls, since pretty much ever. But I believe that, if we had a legally-controlled prostitution system, such as we do with previously-outlawed substances like tobacco and alcohol, it could be a healthy thing. People are always going to do it, no matter how illegal the government makes it. So why not legalize it, protect the women who choose to do it and make it safer for everyone involved?

If they are consenting adults and safety (including health safety) is seen to, why should we dictate what they're allowed to do with their bodies?

(For more information on my views on this subject, watch "Penn And Teller's Bullshit" episode on prostitution.)

[powerboy]

Or, rather, the stigma against it.

Yes, I know it's been used as a way to abuse women and men, boys and girls, since pretty much ever. But I believe that, if we had a legally-controlled prostitution system, such as we do with previously-outlawed substances like tobacco and alcohol, it could be a healthy thing. People are always going to do it, no matter how illegal the government makes it. So why not legalize it, protect the women who choose to do it and make it safer for everyone involved?

If they are consenting adults and safety (including health safety) is seen to, why should we dictate what they're allowed to do with their bodies?

(For more information on my views on this subject, watch "Penn And Teller's Bullshit" episode on prostitution.)



I believe the same way. I saw that episode also

[Amethyst Hunter]

Problem with legalizing it is that it'll just make those who have even sicker tastes (think kiddie porn and the like) go elsewhere, or truck in human captives to fill their wants. There are a shocking number of men who think it's OK to treat prostitutes like trash, since she's "just a whore." You have to wonder how they treat the other women in their lives...

I used to think that legalizing and regulating it was a good thing, till I read some very compelling arguments by a person whose journal I frequent. I just read a study there that was done comparing two different countries who took two different approaches to dealing with prostitution. One (I don't remember the name of it now, unfortunately) legalized it, but the result was that the abusers ignored the regulated prostitutes and just brought in captives to use instead. The other, Sweden, kept it illegal but made it criminal to *buy* sex, not sell it - thereby placing the blame where it ought to be: directly on the john. The result there was that prostitution levels lowered and they didn't have nearly the same number of problems that the other country did.

This approach makes better sense to me. Keep prostitution illegal, but criminalize the *johns*, not the prostitutes, and help those women find their way into better paths so they don't have to risk life and limb in what is essentially a Russian roulette of flesh. (And the whole myth about high-priced call girls having it good is just that, a myth. Once their looks go or they hit a certain age or have certain habits - and maintenance to keep those good looks costs a shitload more than you'd think - they're out on the street and out of luck.)

[Saydrah]

Folks on both sides of this debate should check out one of my favorite bloggers: http://mistressmatisse.blogspot.com

She's a pro-domme who does LEGAL sex work, and who was an escort in the past. If you look at posts tagged 'sex work,' you'll find stories of her own and her friends' experiences in various parts of the sex industry, as well as her arguments for decriminalization.

For starters, vice will not go away. It is human nature to have vice. If we make it legal for any person to do what they want to do with their body to earn money, then those people become protected citizens who don't fear calling the police if a client turns violent, rather than people flying under the radar and fearing arrest if they report abuse.

For that matter, while many sex workers would still live in the "cash economy," decriminalization would provide a way for those who would like to pay their taxes like good citizens to declare their income as self-employment income, deduct expenses like lingerie and mileage on their car, and pay into society like every other self-employed person. For those who choose not to do so, tax fraud is already a crime, as it well should be,

In addition, sex workers who are not in danger of arrest would be more willing to go regularly to a gynecologist for checkups and STD testing, and clients not in danger of arrest would find their sex workers on legal, dedicated sites that connect them with people who take care of their health by abstaining from drugs and getting regular checkups. Plus, in a decriminalized industry, escort services would have an easier time screening calls to weed out abusers, and the workers would have more leverage to demand safety precautions and eschew unsafe sex practices.

The only negative side effect I can imagine is an increased need for services like employment counseling, rehab, therapy, and small business training in communities with a lot of prostitution. Sex workers would need to have services available to help them save and invest for the future, run an effective business, get off any drugs they're on, and help getting out of the industry if they want to. However, many sex workers love their jobs and truly enjoy making clients happy, and are already saving and investing in advance of the time when their looks will expire.

[the_std]

Problem with legalizing it is that it'll just make those who have even sicker tastes (think kiddie porn and the like) go elsewhere, or truck in human captives to fill their wants.

But these 'sicker tastes' are illegal for a different reason - the fact that they include children, who cannot be defined as a "consenting adult". It turns from "prostitution" to "statutory rape". Therefore, legalizing prostitution won't stop the child sex business, because it's not included in the definition of "prostitution" that I originally stated. That's a whole other kettle of fish.

The reason I suggest legalizing prostitution was all those things that Saydrah has said, essentially boiling down to: better care for the people who choose to do it. I think what I'm arguing against here, Amethyst, is your view that prostitution is bad and someone should be punished for it. I disagree with that. Like I said in my original post, if safety is taken care of, who are we to dictate what a person does with their body?

[Norton]

Prostitution is one of the oldest known professions - many say the oldest known profession.

I'm all for legalizing it. I think it would be better for sex workers to have a clean, safe enviroment in which to work. I would think most sex workers would rather choose to work in a legal organization, with safety precautions and health benefits than risk violence and disease in an off-the-books operation. It would also give them a better overall image to be part of a legitimate profession.

Also, hopefully it would stop the practice of pimping. If a prostitute wants to hire a bodygaurd to deal with violent or deadbeat customers, that's fine. However, men getting rich off the efforts of women that they treat like animals or objects sickens me.

[LadyMage]

I have to agree with legalizing it (and yes I saw the penn and teller episode too) It is not the practice itself that is bad like so many think, its the fact we make it bad, thus the women get treated like shit. By legalizing it, anyone (men and women) who wants to sell their body for sex can do so without worrying about being killed by some random idiot who has major damage to their psyce.

[Seshat]

Problem with legalizing it is that it'll just make those who have even sicker tastes (think kiddie porn and the like) go elsewhere, or truck in human captives to fill their wants.

I don't understand your argument. I don't see how you get from 'giving consenting adult prostitutes the legal protections of workers in any other industry' to 'encouraging people who perform criminal acts to perform criminal acts'.

Legalising consenting adult whores will protect those consenting adult whores - and if they're in a position to notice the child whores, the adults will be able to go to the police and report the child rape & abuse without fearing for their own jobs.

Yes, there are people who go to prostitutes to deal with impulses and fetishes that society frowns on. Some - possibly many - of those people are satisfied by harmless interactions with consenting adults. I'd like to see those adult whores get OHSA protection, regular medical checks, and the right to call in the police on their sucky customers.

Yes, there are doubtless people who go to prostitutes who also engage in criminal activities. I'm aware that a large amount of human trafficking, slavery and other abuse feeds the sex industry.

But if there are legal brothels, then people who want to go to prostitutes and not be involved, even peripherally, with the trafficking/slavery industry can make sure they go to the legal brothels. The ones with the list of regulations stuck on the wall, and the open advertising in the entertainment section of the newspaper, and certifications of the staff's most recent medical exams behind the reception desk.

This will make it much harder for the illegal industry - their johns will know there's a high chance that the hookers aren't consenting adults. (Unless they're stupid or hopelessly naive, anyway.)

Without that clear distinction between consenting-adults-only brothels and high-chance-of-slavery/child-abuse brothels, the johns can't tell - and the ones who kind-of don't care, can lie to themselves.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I think what I'm arguing against here, Amethyst, is your view that prostitution is bad and someone should be punished for it.

Can you honestly say there is anything GOOD about prostitution? Here's what it boils down to: misogyny and basic contempt for other human beings. Even if it's willing, it still involves treating someone else as a commodity, something you can use and then throw away like a condom wrapper. I just can't see how anything good can possibly come of that.

I'm not arguing that everything should all be sunshine and flowers and stuff, but if you're going to get that intimate with someone, you (generic you) should at least have some sense of awareness that the person you're going to do the horizontal tango with, even if it's a blind date you just met, is a *person*, and *not* just a hole (or a pole) you can mess around with and then go your merry way. I can all but *guarantee* that the majority of johns, even if they're not the abusive types, who frequent prostitutes don't consider them to be people with real feelings and real everything-else that being human entails - they just see them as people to be used at best, things that have no value other than immediate entertainment at worst.

Even if prostitution was legalized and regulated, I seriously doubt that the worst of abuses would stop altogether, or that prostitutes would have any easier time getting respect and decent treatment in the real world from those who don't do it. To me it's just like giving a free pass to treat women (who comprise the majority of prostitutes) like objects that are there solely for self-gratification. We already do that way too much in the world, what with things like the whole 'boys will be boys' mentality and the cultural expectations of what women "should" do or be.

I don't doubt that there are a few out there who genuinely enjoy what they do. But for every one that does, I'll bet there are a dozen who find it dehumanizing and who wish they could get out of it, but for whatever reasons (poverty being a big one) can't. I remember reading a story in Glamour magazine about a year or so ago that dealt with the story of a woman named Harmony Dust (yes, that's her real name). While she was not a prostitute, she was a stripper, and she detailed just how revolting her experience was.

She got into stripping to pay for school and to pay off family debts (including that of an ex-boyfriend who basically stuck her with the tab for all his expenses), which were upwards of $20,000. By the time she'd quit stripping she'd made over twice that amount, well enough to cover debts and other expenses. But the ultimate price she paid, she said, was flat out not worth it. She told one story where a man was throwing dollar bills at the stage expecting the strippers to *crawl* onto the floor to pick them up. She refused and got a broom instead to sweep up all the money at the end of her dance. She walked away with about a thousand dollars that night. Another story was even more sickening: a former guidance counselor once asked her where she was working as an offhand sort of question; she was visiting him in order to try to find another career that didn't involve stripping, so she told him - and later that same week, guess who showed up at the club she was dancing at?

Yes, the money can be good, there's no denying that. But if you have to spend your days and nights dealing with people who treat you like you're little more than something they scrape off the bottom of their shoe in order to get that money, it will eat you alive. (Those of us in retail know only too well what that's like; at the risk of sounding 'holier-than-thou'ish, not for nothing is there a Biblical verse which states "for what shall a man profit if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?") Harmony, in fact, now runs a not-for-profit business that is dedicated to getting (and keeping) strippers out of that business, having had firsthand experience of just how demeaning it is. I can only imagine how much worse prostitution is - because what happens to our bodies is so very closely linked to our minds.

I don't understand your argument. I don't see how you get from 'giving consenting adult prostitutes the legal protections of workers in any other industry' to 'encouraging people who perform criminal acts to perform criminal acts'.

I didn't word that first part well. I do NOT at all encourage criminals to commit crimes, especially ones as disgusting as child abuse. I was trying to say that it would only increase those particular sections as opposed to leveling off or (preferably) eliminating them. As I said, to me, legalizing prostitution would be like giving a free pass to treat women (and those men that "masculine" men deem unsuitable) as bona fide objects. For one thing, who would decide the appropriate age range for legalization? For some places, age of consent is as little as 15 or 16; others don't have any at all (these are the kinds of places that think marrying off girls as young as 7 is perfectly natural). Get a misogynistic enough group (and there's no shortage of those) in power, and the ones that get off on abuse will almost certainly take advantage to skew the 'laws' in their favor. As I believe Rahmota likes to put it, "what's right isn't always legal, and what's legal isn't always right."

Without that clear distinction between consenting-adults-only brothels and high-chance-of-slavery/child-abuse brothels, the johns can't tell - and the ones who kind-of don't care, can lie to themselves.

Personally, I don't have any sympathy for the johns. I really have to question why so many men (and some women) think it's okay to use another human being like that. I have yet to hear any explanation anywhere that can successfully describe how legalized prostitution is not degrading to both women and men.

As to the emotional side of the equation, you (generic you, again) screw around in your marriage or your chosen committed relationship (without your partner's explicit consent), you deserve whatever misery comes your way. You just don't have the right to take down anybody else with you when that check comes due (as it inevitably will; see former NY governor Spitzer's case - if he was at all sexually active within the boundaries of his marriage, he very likely exposed his wife to potential nasties).

[the_std]

But, Amethyst, not all prostitution is misogyny and abuse and hatred. Not everyone's sexual and romantic tastes run to monogamous, single-partnered sex or even sex with someone you know. Anonymous sex holds a lot of thrills when the person you're having sex with doesn't know you. They don't know that you're a quiet, shy IT admin for Small Company, and, with them, you can be a dominant tiger in the sack.

But, some people don't have the opportunity to meet other people who want to have anonymous sex, plus, there's no way of certifying they'd be clean. With legalized, controlled prostitution, they would have this choice, if they so chose to pay for it.

That's just one example of many sexual preferences that would be aided by the legalization of prostitution. Yes, I will give you that many desperate, poor people turn to selling sex as a way to pay off debts, some do it because they fell in to the wrong crowd, etcetera. It's not always a pleasant, positive thing. But, then again, neither is waitressing, answering phones in a call centre or stocking shelves. There're gonna be sucky experiences everywhere. But, because prostitution is illegal right now, the people who are in the business and want to get out, but can't because of a pimp or other circumstances that are beyond their control, cannot, because they have no one on their side.

If prostitution became legalized, it would give these people more control. More support to leave, if they so desired. I think, again, that my true argument with what you're saying, Amethyst, is it seems that you're saying that lust cannot happen if you don't know the person to some degree. That's so very untrue. Maybe love needs a bit more time and commitment, but getting horny can take all of a few seconds, no need to say anything at all. This way, if you don't want to talk, you don't have to. If you're going to a high-class, well-maintained, legalized brothel, you don't even have to ask, "do you have any STDs?"

[Saydrah]

For a woman (or man for that matter, but I'll use female examples since you specifically discussed misogyny, Amethyst) who doesn't want to work in the sex industry, the work is ABSOLUTELY demeaning, horrible, awful, humiliating, and shameful. But for a woman who loves her body, loves her ability to bring smiles to the faces of her clients, loves the connection she makes with the people she sees regularly week in and week out, loves spreading just a little more happiness in the world? Prostitution can be one of the most empowering industries in the world.

I forget who said, "Every action in the world has been, at some point in history punishable by death, and at some point in history a religious duty." Prostitution is a perfect example of that truism. There was a time when whores were called priestesses, and giving sexual pleasure to those who visited them was a sacred act intended to create happiness and harmony in the community and with nature. In fact, in the early history of mankind, matriarchal societies often revered people who would today be called prostitutes, seeing them as answering a calling to give love to everyone equally. Whoring is considered the world's oldest occupation for that reason, because it's the first example of someone choosing to occupy herself in a particular way, and the community valuing those actions enough to support her. Rather than hunting and gathering, the whore could answer her calling to provide sex, and the men who came to see her would bring offerings of food and clothing; the first work for pay arrangement in human history.

It was not until humans turned from a matriarchal to patriarchal society that women were demonized for choosing to use their bodies to earn a living and provide a service to the community. Even then, there are examples through history of societies that valued or at least tolerated prostitutes. In Colorado where I live, the mountain towns during the 19th century built red-light districts and required prostitutes to remain in those areas to ply their trade, but save for this discrimination, the whores were highly valued and provided a necessary service in a community mostly comprised of single male miners and prospectors. Some of the prostitutes of Leadville and Carbondale were almost celebrities in their day, and are buried honorably. It was an imperfect system that still allowed for abuse and discrimination, but even as recently as that, in my own state, the contributions of sex workers to the community were recognized.

The reason sex work is demeaning and unpleasant to many of those who engage in it is that they feel forced into it, that they have no other recourse. Were there additional resources to help these people, they would be able to transition into other jobs, and leave the jobs in legal brothels for women who feel that using their bodies to make money is empowering and caring, and who understand that the job of a sex worker is not just to provide sex, but to provide emotional escape from the stresses of the world and of day to day life.

[Boozy]

Not everyone's sexual and romantic tastes run to monogamous, single-partnered sex or even sex with someone you know. Anonymous sex holds a lot of thrills when the person you're having sex with doesn't know you....
That's just one example of many sexual preferences that would be aided by the legalization of prostitution.

This particular argument is complete baloney.

Some people's sexual preferences run towards children. Does that mean pedophilia is okay?

No, it does not.

I don't have strong feelings either way about the legalization of prostitution. I just don't think this particular argument is any good.

[Greenday]

Some people's sexual preferences run towards children. Does that mean pedophilia is okay?

Comparing anonymous sex to pedophilia? That's stretching it PRETTY far. Anonymous sex is just two consenting people hooking up just to get rid of their horniness. Pedophilia is a completely different thing.

[Boozy]

Comparing anonymous sex to pedophilia? That's stretching it PRETTY far. Anonymous sex is just two consenting people hooking up just to get rid of their horniness. Pedophilia is a completely different thing.

You misunderstand my point.

the_std was putting forth the argument that, because some people are into anonymous sex, it should be legal.

That's a silly argument. Just because you're into something sexually doesn't mean it should be legal.

That's all I'm saying.

[Greenday]

The problem is, there are a LOT of people into it. Not just a couple of random people.

[the_std]

Boozy, I'm not trying to say that, because people like anonymous sex, that prostitution should be legal.

I'm saying that prostitution would help people who like to have anonymous sex be able to get what they want in a different way that might be easier for some. I don't see how that's related to pedophilia, as anonymous sex is LEGAL, even if prostitution is not. Pedophilia will be illegal whether or not prostitution is legalized.

Two different things altogether.

[Boozy]

I apologize for using the example of pedophilia, since its usage has caused everyone to miss what I was saying. I can assure you that I am not so obtuse as to confuse anonymous sex with pedophilia.

Let's try this again.

Correct me if I'm misreading you: You are saying that helping people have anonymous sex is one reason for legalizing prostitution.

I argue that is a bad reason.

There are better reasons for legalizing prostitution: Increased tax revenue, safer working conditions for women, lower costs of policing, etc. The fact that some people like anonymous sex and are having trouble getting laid is a pretty lame reason in comparison to these.

Besides, in a prostitution scenario, presumably only one person is into the anonymous sex thing - the john. If the prostitute was into it, the john wouldn't have to pay her to screw him, would he?

The more I think about it, the more I'm sort of against legalization. It almost seems more degrading to the john than to the prostitute.

[Saydrah]

Some people like anonymous sex between two or more consenting adults. There is a HUGE difference.

I've said on here before that I'm bi and polyamorous, and I'll say it again. That does NOT make me akin to a pedophile.

There IS an absolute moral standard when it comes to sex. Consenting adult humans is that moral standard. The ability to give consent is a complex question, but for the purposes of simplification, I will just declare that I'm using the word consenting to mean someone with the capacity to give consent; in other words, the mental capacity and wakefulness to comprehend the sex act and its significance, and to agree to it. The only other caveat is that sexual actions that require the abuse or non-consenting involvement of any other living thing should be illegal, and sexual actions that will result in one or more partners involved being unable to give consent by the end of said actions should be illegal. In other words, no killing or lobotomizing even a consenting partner.

Pedophilia is not okay. It is abuse. Bestiality is not okay. It is abuse. But anonymous sex, prostitution (in situations where the prostitute is NOT being abused and is happy with her job), polyamory, swinging, and the like, ARE okay, because what two or more consenting adults do in bed is THEIR business, not the government's.

A better comparison than pedophilia would be the anti-sodomy laws recently abolished after the Lawrence v. Texas supreme court ruling. Like prostitution, sodomy is only harmful when it happens without consent or in an abusive way. Like prostitution, the government assumed the authority to regulate it for moral reasons, rather than on the basis of an actual public health or safety need. And, hopefully like prostitution, the prohibition did not stand the test of time as Americans became more acceptant of one another.

[the_std]

There are better reasons for legalizing prostitution: Increased tax revenue, safer working conditions for women, lower costs of policing, etc. The fact that some people like anonymous sex and are having trouble getting laid is a pretty lame reason in comparison to these.

I agree that the reasons you gave are good reasons to legalize prostitution, but why hurry to dismiss the example I gave as a bad reason to legalize it? Don't these people deserve to get off with another person, too? If they can afford it financially but maybe not socially, why is that less valid?

Like I said, horniness and sex do not require a deep level, or any level, of emotional attachment. Many people might prefer to have this attachment present, but that does not make it a requirement. So, if someone has the money to hire the services of a prostitute for an hour, but does not have/want the emotional capacity to dedicate to a lover, I don't think that's invalid.

You're right, I should have given the reasons you suggested first, as they would benefit the majority of people, but just because the "anonymous" thing does not apply to everyone doesn't mean it does not apply to some.

[Amethyst Hunter]

But, Amethyst, not all prostitution is misogyny and abuse and hatred.

Way too much of it is. I've read too many horror stories to be convinced that there is much of a section of prostitution that is genuinely 'safe' and 'fun' and not abusive.

I think, again, that my true argument with what you're saying, Amethyst, is it seems that you're saying that lust cannot happen if you don't know the person to some degree.

Not at all. I'm well aware that lust can exist without there being any emotional connection at all. But there are safer and IMO saner ways to satisfy that lust rather than going to a prostitute and helping perpetuate the vicious cycle - sex toys, masturbation, even playing role games with a partner to achieve that sense of anonymity (even if only in a limited sense) all offer reasonable options to getting off.

One more thought. Someone who doesn't even want to talk *at all* - and by that I mean stuff like just simple polite 'hi, how are you' bits, not necessarily Deep Existential Ponderings - but just goes right to the screwing sounds pretty machinelike and cold to me, and I would seriously wonder how that person treats the people that he's actually involved with, if there are any.

Other than that, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here and move on. :cool:

[LadyMage]

Way too much of it is. I've read too many horror stories to be convinced that there is much of a section of prostitution that is genuinely 'safe' and 'fun' and not abusive.
:

But if there is someone running things that has the safety of the workers in mind and if its regulated by the law and abuse toward anyone in that business is reported and jailed as if for rape or assault.... then it becomes fun and safe. Legalizing prostitution would actually make it harder for people to abuse women, since there would be security and if you messed around with the women well.... lets just say I bet the security guard knows how to give some less then fun feelings. There is a legalized 'whore house' for lack of a better term at the moment in Nevada, and their security is tight for both the safety of the clients and of the women who work there. I also restate the main argument, if the woman or man wants to sell their body, why not? Its their body, we have no say in what they can or can't do with it!

[Saydrah]

Amethyst- Most johns do not want a machine-like experience like you described. From the sex worker blogs I read, it's apparent that nearly all men who see escorts are looking for the experience of a friend with benefits or a girlfriend whose needs he can satisfy merely by paying by the hour- the relaxation of knowing that they will both have their needs met by a simple agreement, a certain number of hours, a certain sex act, and a certain amount of money paid for that time and those actions. Many men who see escorts like to cuddle and talk, and sex workers of the positive, happy, self-actualized, love-my-job variety often blog about clients they've seen on a regular basis for years and years, and who send them gifts for birthdays and Christmas, and in some cases who even find themselves part of the escort's life outside the bedroom eventually.

However, there ARE people who like totally anonymous sex, and like most fetishes, that has little bearing on who they are socially. Some of the most sadistic tops in the BDSM community are friendly, casual guys and gals in non-BDSM situations, many swingers are sweet, nerdy schoolteacher types, and many women who like to be verbally degraded and humiliated in bed are empowered feminists in the rest of their lives. Similarly, many people who like anonymous sex are upstanding and caring partners and members of their community.

Not to say there aren't tops who act like tops out of bed and are total assholes for it, nor women with obvious daddy issues who seek out abusive partners, nor people who confuse a fetish for anonymous sex with a right to live their lives in a detached way. BUT, that's not the fetish- that's crazy, and whatever fetish crazy comes with, you STILL shouldn't stick it in crazy.

[Seshat]

I completely understand and appreciate what you're saying about dehumanising, Amethyst Hunter. People sell their bodies a lot. Cashiers. Warehouse stock-pickers. Builders' labourers. People sell their minds, too. Programmers. Writers. Artists. Clerical workers.

There are only two differences I see between people in the sex industry selling the skills of their bodies/minds, and people outside the sex industry. Firstly, people in the sex industry are involved in an industry which involves sex. A powerful drive which can generate extreme emotional responses. Secondly, that some parts of the sex industry involve touch.

There are few jobs which require touch. Hairdressing. Many medical jobs. Very little else - even in the cosmetics industry, most touch is by brushes or sponges, not direct. So a job which requires touch also generates strong responses.

So yeah, I can see why people react very strongly to the sex industry in the first place, and even more so to touch-based jobs in the sex industry.

But let's think about prostitution. Or at least, what it takes to be good at the job. If your sexual experiences have been limited to the lady lying there while the man grunts away, then rolls over and goes to sleep (or leaves a few dollars on the dresser and walks out), then I'm sorry for you.

A good experience involves both parties discussing what they want, what they like - not necessarily verbally. It involves interaction, communication. Much more communication than your average cashier gets with customers in a grocery store.

To me, prostitution done well acknowledges the humanity of both parties. It has to - without that, it cannot be done well. Even people whose kink is inhumanity (and yes, that happens) need to talk before and after the session.

What about other forms of the sex industry? Stripping is entertainment. Like all forms of entertainment - or anywhere you have contact with the public - there are idiots and asshats. Like many forms of entertainment, you have exploitation. It's worse in the stripping industry because society supports it. Declares that abuses like the one you mentioned earlier are 'okay' because 'she's just a stripper'. However, I've read the blogs of strippers who were good and skilled and could work in the stripping bars where that sort of behaviour isn't tolerated. Those strippers have regulars, who know and appreciate them. Some come just to look, some like to talk. Some like to laugh at the asshats.

I could go on - but it's all like that. Some good places to work, some bad. Some people who enjoy the work, some who hate it.

It's misogynistic at the moment because the culture is still partly misogynistic. The culture continues to cling to the madonna/whore dichotomy and the double standard, though both are gradually dying.

It's demeaning and dehumanising only if the culture permits it to be. It has the potential to be a highly skilled and highly respected profession. It's hard, difficult work to be good at it: and it requires a great deal of human connection.

My strongest reasons for legalising it, though, are for the protection of the whores, the customers, and the victims of human trafficking and slavery.

Instead of vice cops, the legal brothels can get visited by medical professionals and maybe a social worker doing the rounds to ensure everyone working there is a consenting adult. The whores will have access to OHSA, workers' compensation, and all the other protections society offers.

The vice cops will then have more time available to work specifically on the illegal sex trade, and every illegal brothel will have a high chance of having a connection to human trafficking, slavery and/or rape: cutting down on false leads.

[Rapscallion]

Had to search for this thread. Thread necromancy for the win!

A couple of weeks back I visited three different brothels.

That's not as bad as it first sounds. Uncle Rapscallion didn't inhale (apart from cigarette smoke). I was pretty much the wingman for a chum who wanted to take advantage of the legal prostitution elsewhere. He wouldn't go in without me. I was also the raconteur, and the full write-up has been described as 'bloody hilarious' and other such laudatory terms.

It's available via PM for those who have strong stomachs.

Anyway, there were three different types involved, as it turned out. Chum was more than happy to spend money, since he has much more than me, and it cost me a pretty penny.

The first place was in the main tourist area of the city (not naming names here - city or 'club', but it should be obvious to CSers). They don't half make their coin there. £10 ($15) in, diet cokes about £3.50 (nearly $5), and beers a bit more. You get approached by the ladies if you're not too offensive to the eye. 'Lady Drinks' as they are called are about £20 ($30). They try for the GFE (girlfriend experience) and to get as many drinks out of you as possible before you blanche. They're good.

When a man's hard he's soft, and when he's soft he's hard.

Remember that. It makes a lot of sense. Also, good advice for the ladies. *nods*

Anyway, a shower beforehand (based on chum's reports) and condoms are required, once you go up to a room. From looking at the site and the employment available, there's a distinct cut for the workers there for the happy ending work and for the massively overpriced drinks (pretty mch all fruit juice, from what I could tell).

One of the more interesting aspects was how a particularly offensive-looking guy paid to enter while chum was involved in cardio exercise. He reminded me of Gravekeeper's 'meat owl' of yesteryear. Looked a bit like Michael Moore without anything other than psychopathy on his face, and he was pretty damned heavyset. Made me look slender. He was walking up and down in front of the girls, apparently astounded that he wasn't swarmed (it was low tourist season, so low trade) by workers. The young lady with me noted that there would be nobody going upstairs with him. He wandered around for a while, his presence acknowledged by none but us (we were taking the piss off in a booth), and he wandered around with a price list muttering before stalking out.

In short, the workers worked on commission and had a choice of clients, as long as they could attract them.

The second night involved the place across the street and it was more expensive. Lady drinks were about £30 ($45), and happy endings cost approximately 30% more from memory. Again, I declined, but this was far more business-like. Instead of pumping you for a drink (200ml diet coke about £10, or $15), it's straight to business with a series of women who took, "We're just going to have a drink first," as a statement of puppy-killing intent. We noted a couple of guys who weren't approached at all, so we can't be that ugly.

Both these two places reminded me of a conversation I'd had with a colleague who used to be a taxi driver on another continent and had worked the graveyard shift. He'd picked up many working girls over the two years he'd worked that job and got them home safely. He'd not met any who were other than doing it to set themselves up for life. The money was bloody good, and most of them were able to buy a house outright by their mid-twenties. None of the ones he met were addicts.

The last place was more for the locals - well away from the tourist regions. It was a sort of pick your preference from the workers available (didn't approach you, or even acknowledge your presence) and drinks were bar prices. Far more perfunctory - didn't try and pump chum for another drink after (lady drinks being £7 or just over $10). Just buggered off back to the group of women to one side.

What did I take away from all this?

I'm sure that there is illegal sex trafficking going on, and I'm also pretty certain I didn't see any in any of the three places. Conditions were pretty good for people in the sex trade, though being a tourist area for the first two then you'd expect so. There were unobtrusive chaps who could stand toe-to-toe with the best of them for protection for the workers.

In that sort of situation, I have no problem with prostitution. It's legal, taxed, voluntary, and in the first two places highly remunerated by the local wage standards. I'd have some concerns about health issues from the sheer number of cigarettes smoked, but it was the workers themselves for the most part doing that.

Who was being taken advantage of? Chum hasn't had any success in the tilting lists of romance for some time and was willing to exchange spare cash for a half-hour of fun. On the second night as he approached the room he was accosted by someone upselling a rose for the young lady in question, which he bought. Hard soft, soft hard - all that jazz.

Was he being taken advantage of? In a way, yes, but he reckoned that for him (single, no hopes in romance) it works.

Were the girls being taken advantage of? Protected, clean clients, higher than the average local wage income - not a bad combination. They were good at causing horny men to spend more on drinks etc.

Under those circumstances I don't have any problems with the situation I saw at arm's length.

Other circumstances - I have no idea. However, I've seen something that can set young women up financially. Is it degrading? That's in the eye of the beholder. Would it be better if the practice was legalised elsewhere?

Quite honestly, with the stigma attached in the prudish countries such as the UK and US, I don't think it would work so well, but I figure it would be worth a try.

Rapscallion

[Ginger Tea]

I told captain dickhead a girl he knew in a TL;DR backstory would never go to bed with him no matter what he did, say or buy for her, in the end he bought her 2 iPod touch's (she alegedly lost one) mobile phone credit, paid money into her dads account (?!?) and god knows what else, all whilst having £15k credit card debt to boot.

I don't know the going rate or where to look in Cambridge, nor do I care to look, I'm single, I'm happy that way and if needed I have porn, but I wonder what you could get on average for the cost of one let alone two iPod touch's, hell I'm sure he could have bought a realdoll with the money wasted on her :p

Also last year or one before, he was hard up for cash and his mum was thinking of evicting him due to back rent, must be bad if your own mother is thinking of evicting you. He ended up getting a part time job driving escorts, when he first said that, I thought it was the lead in to a crappy ford joke, he would drive women of unknown attractiveness*, to domestic locations, hotels and the like, he would wait outside for however long, drive her to the next client or home when she had enough, then she would give him his cut and the agencies which he would hand in to their office. The stinger is he had to pay his own petrol, so if he had to drive in the sticks (which he did alot) he could loose alot of his cut in petrol alone, nor did he get any perks of the job.

*I jokingly said when they had no callers they should pop into my local to chill out, woman in the attic said he was in once with one odd looking woman.

[telecom_goddess]

I believe the same way. I saw that episode also

same here. It's called the oldest profession for a reason, and it's NOT going to go away. Outlawing it just makes it less safe for everyone involved. Legalize it and it would make life so much simpler.

[Rageaholic]

The way I see it, as long as it's two consenting adults, there should be no problem. I think it's total bull that it's illegal in so many states and even more bull that people go to jail for it. Again, how does it affect me if Mark hires someone for sex? It doesn't, it only affects Mark and the prostitute. Both who have willfully consented to it. So why should they be arrested for that?

[telecom_goddess]

The way I see it, as long as it's two consenting adults, there should be no problem. I think it's total bull that it's illegal in so many states and even more bull that people go to jail for it. Again, how does it affect me if Mark hires someone for sex? It doesn't, it only affects Mark and the prostitute. Both who have willfully consented to it. So why should they be arrested for that?

exactly! I agree with this sentiment.

[BlaqueKatt]

I'm going to go out on a limb here because many people are not aware that yes, BlaqueKatt used to be a stripper. Working there for 4 months put my ex-husband through college, had I lasted 6 months I'd have had the option for insurance, an hourly wage rather than tips, and paid vacation. As far as it being "degrading", it ultimately depends on what club you work in. Just like any company there are good ones that care about the employees, and those that only care about he money. The club I worked in was a very tight run ship, closer to burlesque than out and out stripping. The owner was very adamant about "keeping the riff raff out", both workers and clients. If someone had thrown money on the floor rather than handing it to us or stuffing it in our shoes (http://www.laprofashions.com/tipshoes1.htm)(clients were NOT ALLOWED to stuff money in our outfits), he would've been shown not so nicely to the door.

The owner, saw us as a reflection of him, it was his name on the club and we were not allowed to do anything that would tarnish his reputation. He approved our costumes and dance routines, if you showed too much skin, the costume was not allowed(thongs were sometimes ok, g-strings were not), he sent bouncers with us when we did bachelor parties, to not only protect us, but to keep some girls from making "private arrangements", If you were caught doing so, he'd call the cops on you himself. His main thing was, "you girls are someone's daughter, wife, girlfriend, sister, or mom, you are not trash and I will not let anyone treat you like you are, you are my girls, my responsibility while you are on the clock." And by "his girls", he meant we were his "daughters" and he was fiercely protective of us.

[Ladeeda]

I'm going to go out on a limb here because many people are not aware that yes, BlaqueKatt used to be a stripper. Working there for 4 months put my ex-husband through college, had I lasted 6 months I'd have had the option for insurance, an hourly wage rather than tips, and paid vacation. As far as it being "degrading", it ultimately depends on what club you work in. Just like any company there are good ones that care about the employees, and those that only care about he money. The club I worked in was a very tight run ship, closer to burlesque than out and out stripping. The owner was very adamant about "keeping the riff raff out", both workers and clients. If someone had thrown money on the floor rather than handing it to us or stuffing it in our shoes (http://www.laprofashions.com/tipshoes1.htm)(clients were NOT ALLOWED to stuff money in our outfits), he would've been shown not so nicely to the door.

The owner, saw us as a reflection of him, it was his name on the club and we were not allowed to do anything that would tarnish his reputation. He approved our costumes and dance routines, if you showed too much skin, the costume was not allowed(thongs were sometimes ok, g-strings were not), he sent bouncers with us when we did bachelor parties, to not only protect us, but to keep some girls from making "private arrangements", If you were caught doing so, he'd call the cops on you himself. His main thing was, "you girls are someone's daughter, wife, girlfriend, sister, or mom, you are not trash and I will not let anyone treat you like you are, you are my girls, my responsibility while you are on the clock." And by "his girls", he meant we were his "daughters" and he was fiercely protective of us.

I'd love him as a boss in ANY industry!

[Hyena Dandy]

The problem I see with "IF we legalize prostitution, they'll go elsewhere for their sick needs" is that it is a very dehumanizing argument. Should the prostittues have to deal with those sick needs?

[Rapscallion]

The problem I see with "IF we legalize prostitution, they'll go elsewhere for their sick needs" is that it is a very dehumanizing argument. Should the prostittues have to deal with those sick needs?

Er, either they are going to prostitutes for sick needs anyway, in which case they can generally be catered to, or the sickness is as seen from the perspective of someone disapproving. Did I miss something?

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

And by "his girls", he meant we were his "daughters" and he was fiercely protective of us.

I'm a bit creeped out by that. He was a good boss in that he was concerned for his employees' safety and his own company's reputation, but referring to your employees as "daughters" isn't appropriate. Especially if your employees' job is to take off their clothes.

[Eisa]

Regardless, I would probably work for him if I wanted to be a stripper. :p

I think prostitution should be legalized. And set up like a business. Because maybe that way, the underage kids could get out of it, and people wouldn't be forced into it. Plus there could be health screenings and stuff. Like the places Raps went to. Those sounded perfectly fine to me.

[Hyena Dandy]

Er, either they are going to prostitutes for sick needs anyway, in which case they can generally be catered to, or the sickness is as seen from the perspective of someone disapproving. Did I miss something?

Rapscallion

Oh, to explain.

There was a comment earlier in the thread that we shouldn't legalize prostitution because people will import human slaves to take care of their sick needs. Which I feel is de-humanizing, because that argument has this sort of hint to it that its alright they're beating prostitutes. Otherwise we have prostitutes being beaten, and other people left alone, which is perfectly fine. But if we stop the prostitutes from being beaten, then it'll go on to other people who AREN'T prostitutes. It feels like its saying "Don't legalize prostitution, or else real people will get hurt."

If prostitutes are being mistreated, they need protection, like anyone else. And I think the first step to protecting the prostitutes is to legalize prostitution, so that what they're doing isn't illegal.

[MadMike]

I agree with the late great George Carlin who once asked, "Why should it be illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away?"

It's not something I'd ever do myself. I'd feel like a loser if I felt the only way I could get it was to pay for it. But if two (or more) consenting adults want to do it for money, what business is it of mine, and more importantly the government's?

[Rapscallion]

Oh, to explain.

There was a comment earlier in the thread that we shouldn't legalize prostitution because people will import human slaves to take care of their sick needs. Which I feel is de-humanizing, because that argument has this sort of hint to it that its alright they're beating prostitutes. Otherwise we have prostitutes being beaten, and other people left alone, which is perfectly fine. But if we stop the prostitutes from being beaten, then it'll go on to other people who AREN'T prostitutes. It feels like its saying "Don't legalize prostitution, or else real people will get hurt."

If prostitutes are being mistreated, they need protection, like anyone else. And I think the first step to protecting the prostitutes is to legalize prostitution, so that what they're doing isn't illegal.

Makes a bit more sense, thanks.

It's not something I'd ever do myself. I'd feel like a loser if I felt the only way I could get it was to pay for it. But if two (or more) consenting adults want to do it for money, what business is it of mine, and more importantly the government's?

Well, the only business of the government should be to tax it like they do every other profession.

Rapscallion

[Mytical]

Sex, Nudity, etc is 'Taboo'. Why when Nudity is our most natural state I have no idea, but that is beside the point..and it seems in the US I am in the minority with that thought. I won't even get into the confusion of how some churches are very anti-nudity (etc)..that just cornfuses (misspelled on purpose) the heck outta me.

Personally, even being a virgin, I would have no interest in a prostitute. The one time I went to a strip club (dragged by my cousin) I was bored out of my mind. No interest in porn either *shrugs*. Then again I am strange :). I do believe legalizing it would better protect the people who chose to work in the industry, and help those who don't get out.

[Greenday]

Sex, Nudity, etc is 'Taboo'. Why when Nudity is our most natural state I have no idea, but that is beside the point..and it seems in the US I am in the minority with that thought. I won't even get into the confusion of how some churches are very anti-nudity (etc)..that just cornfuses (misspelled on purpose) the heck outta me.

Go about your normal day and count how many people are walking around naked doing their normal daily routine. That's why it's taboo. You probably won't even get to one.

Churches are about reproducing with your husband/wife. Anything that isn't involved with that is against the Christian religion (and Judaism and Muslim as far as I'm aware). Your spouse is the only one who is supposed to see you naked. Hope that clears up the confusion.

[Mytical]

Two years ago I would have said "You'd be surprised" because one of my friends was a nudist (and when I visited..I seen a LOT of nude people going about their normal business), but since they moved away you are correct. Wouldn't even be able to find one.

[Rapscallion]

Go about your normal day and count how many people are walking around naked doing their normal daily routine. That's why it's taboo. You probably won't even get to one.

The fact that I'm in the UK and most of the time it's brass monkey weather has something to do with it. It's because we lack the levels of fur that protect animals, methinks.

Churches are about reproducing with your husband/wife. Anything that isn't involved with that is against the Christian religion (and Judaism and Muslim as far as I'm aware). Your spouse is the only one who is supposed to see you naked. Hope that clears up the confusion.

Er, doesn't necessarily have to be about religion. That's one aspect of it, since religions often tell you to do relatively minor things, including clothing - skullcaps, Sunday best. yarmulkes, priest's robes etc.

According to the christian religion, though, the state of perfect innocence was naked in the garden of Eden, from what I remember, so I don't think that quite works as an argument.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

Except it's no longer innocent.

[Andara Bledin]

I remember watching some version of The Tempest or some similar epic tale on TV one time.

The fae in the story were denoted by the fact that they didn't wear clothing, for the most part, just some adornments as suited their tastes and rank.

The first time one of them showed up on screen I was, "Whoa, is that person naked?" A few more of them later it was, "Huh, looks like all the fae are in various states of nudity." By half an hour into the show, I'd gotten to the point of, "Oh, another fae," and the fact that there were naked people on screen had become a total non-issue.

It'd be nice if we, as a species, could get over this freakish body fetish we've got going on.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

Except it's no longer innocent.

Why would that be?

Rapscallion

[BlaqueKatt]

if we had legal regulated brothels we wouldn't have this (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/06/22/2009-06-22_new_lurid_details_in_case_of_accused_craigslist _killer_phillip_markoff.html)or this (http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/01/24/2011-01-24_craiglist_serial_killer_cops_id_3_more_missing_ prostitutes_found_dumped_along_lo.html)

craigslist serial killers-they hired sex workers off of CL and brutally murdered them, you think that would happen if the women had worked in a safe environment such as a brothel?

[Andara Bledin]

craigslist serial killers-they hired sex workers off of CL and brutally murdered them, you think that would happen if the women had worked in a safe environment such as a brothel?
Probably, unfortunately.

However, the pool of available victims would be vastly reduced.

^-.-^

[Greenday]

Why would that be?

Rapscallion

Because society has made it so and we can't just flip a switch to make things the way they were.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Well, the only business of the government should be to tax it like they do every other profession.

Rapscallion

Hmm, %10 prostitute service tax, anywhere from $5-$100 per 'session' or more...

Think of all the cool crap we could buy with this! Tanks, body armor, finally get the army a slick new carbine!

New slogan! B**w J**s for Body Armor!