Drink Driving

[crazylegs]

A mildly heated discussion some time ago (read months) over on CS gave me some food for thought today.

Drink driving, we all know its bad, we all know that adding a poison that inhibits our reaction times, our spatial ability and other road related judgements is bad, but why do people still think its ok to have one or two before getting behind the wheel of (around) a ton and a half of metal then driving around other people of speeds up to 70mph (lawful upper limit in UK)?

It astonishes me that people are still not responsible behind the wheel of a car. Yes certain meds do the same, but hey don't drive. You're tired? Try waiting in A&E (ER) for 18 hours waiting to see if someone you know is going to pull through surgery after they've been creamed by someone who has fallen asleep.

None of these excuses matter.

If you've had alcohol, don't drive.

Now feel free to pull this apart! :D

[Amethyst Hunter]

I completely agree - I have no sympathy for drunk drivers. I personally know two people who were nearly killed over 15 years ago because they were hit head-on by a drunk driver (and it was his *first* such offense, no less); it took them well over a year to recover from the severe injuries they sustained (broken bones, concussions - the husband was wheelchair-bound for a good 6 months at least).

I also had a cousin I never met because he was killed shortly before I was born - he was hit by a drunk driver while on his way to school (in front of his mother and older brother, even!). Even worse, the bastard who did it got off scot-free because he was a wealthy physician with prominent connections.

People never learn, unfortunately. :(

[powerboy]

That is the only thing, someone will always drink and drive. When I go out drinking, I will only have 2-3 beers and I am still good to drive. My vision is not impaired at all. I am not a light drinker. I just know my limit for driving.

[Seshat]

why do people still think its ok to have one or two before getting behind the wheel of (around) a ton and a half of metal then driving around other people of speeds up to 70mph (lawful upper limit in UK)?

Because they're not thinking of it as a ton and a half of metal with an acceleration on impact of 70mph/half-second. They're thinking of it as 'a way to get home'.

Or because of thoughts like this:

When I go out drinking, I will only have 2-3 beers and I am still good to drive. My vision is not impaired at all. I am not a light drinker. I just know my limit for driving.

Powerboy, I'd like to see you do a challenge. I'd like to see you on an off-road testing track in your usual car.

You travel down the road at your normal post-drinking speed, at a point unknown to you, someone signals for you to stop. You stop, and the distance between the signal and the moment you hit the brake, and the signal and the complete stop are measured. (The car may need to have a timer fitted for the brake pedal, for this purpose.)

Then you have 2-3 beers and are at your limit for driving. You do the same test (with a different stopping location, so the test doesn't get skewed).

If your reaction time and stopping distances are unaffected, fine. I'll accept that you know your reaction-time limit for alcohol. If they are affected, though, then you'd better cut down on how much you drink before you drive.

(There are other road-related judgements alcohol affects, and I'd like to see those tested too - but this one's one of the biggest.)

[Boozy]

A while back I saw a TV special on a study where a large group of people did a bunch of driving tests like the kind Seshat is describing.

95% of people in this study were "shocked" to find out how badly they drove after a few drinks, especially because they all "felt sober".

Just some food for thought.

[blas87]

My coworker was telling us all last week about his uncle getting his 8th DUI. Yes, that's his 8th. People in Wisconsin (and other states) are getting that many DUIs and MINIMAL jail time each time and still get their licenses back or find a way to drive anyway.

Shows how serious the state is about stopping drunk driving and really punishing the offenders.

[powerboy]

As long as alcohol is served in public places, there will be drinking and driving. Not everyone is going to be causing accidents, after they have a few beers. It is the majority of drinkers that are the problem. And yeah, they should stop serving alcohol at public places.

Plus I only drink here and there.

[crazylegs]

Not everyone is going to be causing accidents, after they have a few beers.

I think the figures are that in the UK around 30% of all RTCs have alcohol as a contributing factor.

A third of all accidents.

Think how many lives would be saved, how much damage wouldn't happen and how much money wouldn't be wasted if people didn't drink and drive.

It only takes two or three beers to have a momentary lapse of judgement that can result in an RTC, that can also be Fatal.

There has been an incident reasonably locally where Seven people (four in one car, three in another) died in a collision, the driver at fault (he was on the wrong side of the road, attempting to overtake) had a previous conviction for drink driving. It will be interesting to see at the inquest if he was drunk this time.

[lordlundar]

I like the setup in Ontario. It is mandated by law that every vehicle be equipped with a breathalyzer tied into the battery. If you blow above the programmed amount (which is lower than the legal limit) the ignition won't start.

It's not perfect (the system can be bypassed with some work) but it's a step in the right direction.

[Boozy]

I like the setup in Ontario. It is mandated by law that every vehicle be equipped with a breathalyzer tied into the battery. If you blow above the programmed amount (which is lower than the legal limit) the ignition won't start.

Just to clarify, this is not a requirement for all drivers. This is only applies to those who have been convicted of a drunk driving offense.

[the_std]

As long as alcohol is served in public places, there will be drinking and driving.

But just because it's going to be there doesn't make it right. Drinking and driving is not mandatory. There is nothing that is making these people drink and drive, it's their choice. Therefore it's something that, with time, might be changed.

Plus I only drink here and there.

It only takes once to lose everything.

[Zyanya]

But just because it's going to be there doesn't make it right. Drinking and driving is not mandatory. There is nothing that is making these people drink and drive, it's their choice. Therefore it's something that, with time, might be changed.

It's amazing how courteous the bar staff can be when you identify yourself as the designated driver of a group getting a tad toasted. I've lost count of the time my appetizers and even meals have mysteriously vanished from the check, and I've always received at least one non-alcoholic beverage on the house.

Of course, I do consider it the designated soberee's duty to reign in those who have a wee bit to much Captain in them and get them to go home before they've trod on the waitress's last nerve.

[Seshat]

As long as alcohol is served in public places, there will be drinking and driving.

Why? There are plenty of other ways for someone to get from an alcohol-serving public place to home - or to wherever they want to go.


- They can wait two hours for the first standard drink, then one hour for each additional standard drink, and drive only after that time. The alcohol will have mostly passed from the system then.
(Crazylegs or anyone who knows this better, please correct me if I have the numbers wrong. For medical reasons, I can't drink, so I'm working off old memory.)

- They can use public transport or a taxi, provided they're not offensively drunk.

- They can use a 'booze bus', at least where I am.

- They can have a designated driver in their group.

- They can rent a room at a hotel and sleep it off, then go home.


Why the hell would you drive drunk, when you have so many other choices?

[crazylegs]

- They can wait two hours for the first standard drink, then one hour for each additional standard drink, and drive only after that time. The alcohol will have mostly passed from the system then.

I believe the rate of metabolism is one unit every two hours for a normal healthy liver.

So your pint of normal strength beer will take four hours to be completely gone from your system.

Your ten pints of premium, high strength lager last night, well probably not until midday, which is why so many people are still over the limit when they drive in the morning.

[Seshat]

Thanks, Crazylegs.

Another important thing I forgot to mention: nothing will sober you up. Only time. Water, B-group vitamins, or coffee only make you feel better or reduce your hangover - they don't get rid of the alcohol, just some of the metabolic effects of the alcohol.

And they don't affect the ways alcohol screws up your ability to drive safely.

[AFPheonix]

In some ways I'm glad my brother-in-law's car has been repo'd, as he has a few DUIs on his record.
He's currently sleeping on our couch. He has no where else to go, really. Hell, he doesn't even have a car to sleep in if he fucks up with us.

Alcoholism is a disease and probably until it's better understood by society, we'll have issues with people doing illegal things with alcohol.

My BIL is fortunate this time around as the state got involved with him, and now he has our support, plus the help of several state-run doctors to help with the depression at the root of the issue, not to mention addiction treatment. I hope he takes this golden opportunity to pull his shit back together.

The only bummer is that I'm on the wagon now, too. I won't drink in front of him and all my wine and hard alcohol went to my sister's house to keep it away from him. ;)

[powerboy]

There are other ways people can get into accidents. But it is only drunk driving that gets into the news. Not everyone that drinks is going to be driving. I only drink about once a month. It is rare, when I do throw back a few. Last week, I did. And yeah, I did need it. I guess I should have said that in the first place.

[crazylegs]

.

Another important thing I forgot to mention: nothing will sober you up. Only time. Water, B-group vitamins, or coffee only make you feel better or reduce your hangover -

I would like to point out one thing here, coffee only makes you feel more alert, as it has a diuretic effect (however small) it will make it feel like your hangover lasts longer as a hangover is dehydration.

I would like to point out (completely seperate from the above) that if you're hungover that doesn't mean that you're alcohol free, it just means your body is running out of water to metabolise the alcohol.

AFPhoenix,

Not all drink drivers are alcoholics, in the same way not all alcoholics are drink drivers (some are aware that they shouldn't be driving), but kudos to your BIL, I really do hope he stays on the wagon.

[Boozy]

There are other ways people can get into accidents. But it is only drunk driving that gets into the news.

Every serious accident in my city gets into the news, whether there is alcohol involved or not.

But do you know why drunk driving accidents get more attention? Because they're completely preventable, and drunk driving is illegal.

People know this, and yet they still do it. So of course my local news is going to tell people when some moron criminal gets behind the wheel of a half-ton of steel and starts cruising through our neighbourhoods.

There is never an excuse to drive drunk.

[crazylegs]

But it is only drunk driving that gets into the news.

Really?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7309320.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7289082.stm

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/ireland/article3538805.ece

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7286332.stm

http://www.thestar.co.uk/headlines/Woman-injured-in-road-accident.3903731.jp

http://www.harrogateadvertiser.net/harrogatenews/Police-plea-after-road-accident.3900018.jp

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=181429&command=displayContent&sourceNode=229968&home=yes&more_nodeId1=133174&contentPK=20210044

http://www.fife.police.uk/default.aspx?page=3135

http://www.newmarketjournal.co.uk/news/Accident-closes-road-.3901708.jp

I beg to differ.

However, causing a crash whilst drunk will 9/10 mean its your fault, unless you've managed through sheer (bad) luck to have another person plough into the side of you.

There is no such thing as a 'safe' level of alcohol within the blood stream whilst driving other than nil. Airline pilots cannot have any alcohol in their blood, why is it any different for car drivers? It sends out contradictory messages that some alcohol is safe but you gotta keep guessing because there is no way of working out you blood alcohol level without a breathilyser.

Whilst out and about at work a chap who was quite clearly sozzled asked me to administer a breath test as he'd 'only had a couple' and wanted to know whether or not he was safe to drive. That question should have been plenty enough notice for him to realise he wasn't safe to drive.

[Zyanya]

There are other ways people can get into accidents. But it is only drunk driving that gets into the news.

Some people get electrocuted by accident. Doesn't make getting hammered and deciding to play with a transformer any more intelligent of a decision.

My mother and sister were both nearly killed by some asshole who 'only had a couple' and 'felt okay to drive'. He also only drank occasionally.

If you are looking to justify the fucktardary of driving drunk, you are in the wrong place. There is no justification for getting behind the wheel drunk.

[tropicsgoddess]

Why? There are plenty of other ways for someone to get from an alcohol-serving public place to home - or to wherever they want to go.


- They can use public transport or a taxi, provided they're not offensively drunk.

- They can use a 'booze bus', at least where I am.

- They can have a designated driver in their group.

- They can rent a room at a hotel and sleep it off, then go home.


Why the hell would you drive drunk, when you have so many other choices?

My coworker was telling us all last week about his uncle getting his 8th DUI. Yes, that's his 8th. People in Wisconsin (and other states) are getting that many DUIs and MINIMAL jail time each time and still get their licenses back or find a way to drive anyway.

Shows how serious the state is about stopping drunk driving and really punishing the offenders.

Blas, your co-worker's uncle has 8 DUIs?!! :eek: If I'm not mistaken, after so many DUIs (especially if there was manslaughter) your license could be permanently revoked with no chance of getting a hardship license in Florida. Hell I knew this guy from friend who had his 4th or 5th DUI that served a year in prison, got his license back and is now doing 5 years of parole after he got out in 2006.

I agree with Seshat and I just don't understand how people do not act on the options she mentioned to keep themselves from driving drunk. I think some tow truck companies tow your car and take you home for free on the holidays. Dunno if it's just my area, but hey it never hurts to check.

[Seshat]

There are other ways people can get into accidents. But it is only drunk driving that gets into the news.

Around here, you can get in the news for any silly driving behaviour. Drink-driving, speeding, driving while on a cell phone, driving while turned around to yell at the kids in the back seat.

Not just drunk driving.

Not everyone that drinks is going to be driving.

Right. The smart ones aren't.

I only drink about once a month. It is rare, when I do throw back a few. Last week, I did. And yeah, I did need it.

Being unable to drink (or at least, unable to without screwing up my meds), I just don't understand how someone can 'need' it.

If you require a nervous system depressant to function, you can get a guaranteed dose of known quality with known effects and a neutral base by talking to a doctor and getting a script.

Admittedly, modern production standards do mean that modern alcohols, if served at specific doses, are almost as precise. But they're rarely served at dosages quite that precise. If you need it to function, you really are better off getting a psychoactive specifically prescribed for your specific problems.

If you don't need a nervous system depressant, alcohol's not a necessity. It's one aspect of a form of stress relief, or fun, or end-of-week ritual, or whatever you do when you go down to pub for a cold one.

As for me and my psychoactive (prescribed) drugs? I'm considered safe to drive on a legal level. My drug combination shouldn't impair me, according to the pharmacists I've spoken to. But I still avoid driving, just in case.

[AFPheonix]

Not all drink drivers are alcoholics, in the same way not all alcoholics are drink drivers (some are aware that they shouldn't be driving), but kudos to your BIL, I really do hope he stays on the wagon.

Very true. I suppose I've just had to be aware of it more. It would be interesting to see the breakdown of DUIs based on people with diagnosed alcoholism and people who are not addicted but made the assumption they could drive safely even with an elevated BAC.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Being unable to drink (or at least, unable to without screwing up my meds), I just don't understand how someone can 'need' it.


It's a psychological thing. ;) True alcoholism troubles aside, sometimes you just need a way to blow off some steam, and for a lot of people (not necessarily myself), that means knocking back X number of drinks of their poison of choice.

I don't have any problem with this. I only have a problem when they do it and then go get in a car with the express intention of driving it someplace. Speaking from personal experience, I once had had a very stressful night at a job and decided to go over to one of my favorite restaurants and have a strawberry margarita (Mmm, strawberry margaritas!) as a self-reward. (When I self-reward, it's rarely alcoholic in nature, btw.)

Now, I only had *one*, because I knew I would have to drive myself home that night. But this was a fairly big margarita in one of those tall glasses (that was the way this place served them), and with those kinds of drinks, they tend to make me sleepy more than anything else. (I'm not a drinker by nature; the most I ever have is one or two wine coolers or actual glasses of wine when I drink, for a rough average of about once every three months) It's the closest I've ever come to feeling anything even mildly resembling what people might call an alcoholic 'buzz', though I doubt it actually was. I drove slower than the posted limit that night as a precaution - I wasn't nodding off at the wheel, but I was definitely more relaxed after leaving that restaurant. Needless to say, that is the *only* time I've ever done anything like that - now if I know I'm going to go the margarita route ahead of time, I'll only do it if somebody else has the car keys.

I realize that people have different tolerance levels - for instance, women are automatically on the short end of the alcohol stick because their bodies process the stuff faster, so they feel the effects sooner than men. Other women *can* outdrink men, and some men can't touch more than one or two beers without feeling zonked. It's frighteningly easy to go over what one thinks is one's personal limit, so be careful. Better safe than sorry, I always believe.

[powerboy]

Seshat, Its cool that you have your reasons for not drinking. But I will always drink here and there. You will never stop me from doing that.

[crazylegs]

You will never stop me from doing that.

I don't think anyone would ever want to try to.

Amythest Hunter

The smartest thing to do is not get behind the wheel of a vehicle whilst under the influence, no matter how much/little you've had.

On UK TV a few years back they showed an experiment with bus drivers, these drivers all had at least ten years experience driving buses and knew the *exact* space they could drive through, or rather they could whilst sober.

After consuming 2-4 units (1-2 normal strength beers) most could not safely navigate through cones and thought their buses could get through gaps that would be a physical impossibility.

[Zyanya]

Seshat, Its cool that you have your reasons for not drinking. But I will always drink here and there. You will never stop me from doing that.

Drink whenever you wish. That's your business.

Just don't drive while the alcohol is in your system. It's more than just your life you are risking. A drunk driver is more likely to kill someone else than themself.

[Seshat]

Seshat, Its cool that you have your reasons for not drinking. But I will always drink here and there. You will never stop me from doing that.

I don't want to.

I do want to stop people from driving drunk. Or driving distracted, or driving too fast for the combination of car/driver/conditions, or driving when their eyes have been dilated for an optometric exam, or driving in any other way it's stupid to do so.

I am also genuinely curious: why do you 'need' to drink? Or are you using a different meaning of the word 'need' to the meaning I use?

Amethyst Hunter: your example isn't 'need' in the sense I use the word. But for a more relaxed use of the word, yeah, I can see it. You need (by my definition) some means of winding down and relaxing. To achieve that, you need (by your definition) a strawberry margarita. But if you can't get alcohol, you could also wind down with a walk in the park, or a cigarette, or watching the sunset, or a vicious game of squash with a friend, or something.

Powerboy, is that what you mean as well?

[crazylegs]

I do want to stop people from driving drunk. Or driving distracted, or driving too fast for the combination of car/driver/conditions, or driving when their eyes have been dilated for an optometric exam, or driving in any other way it's stupid to do so.


I could kiss you right now!

Now, how to get the rest of the general population to think in the same way...?

[Boozy]

I am also genuinely curious: why do you 'need' to drink? Or are you using a different meaning of the word 'need' to the meaning I use?

Seshat, I wouldn't read too much into that. Its just a saying, like something along the lines of, "Oh man, that was a rough week! I really need a drink! Phew!"...followed by exaggerated wiping of the brow.

Its just something people say, and most of us don't mean anything by it. It just didn't translate well into the written word, that's all.

[powerboy]

Powerboy, is that what you mean as well?

Why yes it is.

Seshat, I wouldn't read too much into that. Its just a saying, like something along the lines of, "Oh man, that was a rough week! I really need a drink! Phew!"...followed by exaggerated wiping of the brow.

Its just something people say, and most of us don't mean anything by it. It just didn't translate well into the written word, that's all.

Exactly how I meant it.

[Seshat]

Ah, okay. No problem then. I was 'hearing' something entirely different.



And crazylegs: my father was a driving instructor, and before that, an ambulance driver. He saw the results of too many accidents . . .

[DesignFox]

Seshat, my Dad was an ambulance driver/EMT also. He doesn't drink when he knows he's gotta drive. He too, has seen the results of drunk driving...some of the stories he's told me.... :eek:

[Boozy]

Ernest Hemingway was an ambulance driver in World War I, and he was also a notorious alcoholic.

I have absolutely no point in sharing this piece of trivia; this line of discussion just made me think about Hemingway.

Carry on.

[Dreamstalker]

Another important thing I forgot to mention: nothing will sober you up. Only time.
As my Health class teacher in 7th grade put it: "The only thing coffee will do is result in a wide-awake drunk".