"Speak English" sign in Philly restaurant

[Boozy]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8VGQ98O0&show_article=1

A restaurant owner posts a sign in his restaurant saying, "This is America: When ordering, speak English."

While I understand that language barriers can be an issue when conducting business, I think the store owner is just being a dick.

- The "This is America" part of the sign is ridiculous and inflammatory. Like it or not, the US has no official language, and English does not become the official language just because some asshole with a restaurant in Philly says it is.

- I don't believe that the mostly Asian and Hispanic immigrants walk up to this guy and start yapping at him in Cantonese or Spanish. Why would either group assume that he can speak their language when he appears to be neither Asian nor Hispanic? Perhaps it has happened once or twice - but often enough to post a sign?

- The neighbourhood was originally founded by Italian immigrants, and the restaurant owner is of Italian ancestry himself. Only a few generations ago, Italian immigrants were being treated as poorly and with as much suspicion as the Hispanics are now. I can only assume that, not long ago, it was common to hear voices speaking in Italian - not English - in that neighbourhood. I guess irony is completely lost on this guy. :rolleyes:


This sign was obviously posted to discourage Asians and Hispanics from coming into the restaurant at all. I don't think the sign should be illegal, and I agree with the court's decision to allow it. Free speech is important, and he is not denying service to these people.

I just think he's a dick. I hope he loses a lot of business over this, although I fear he won't.

[crazylegs]

I've seen a sign in my local KFC which is aimed at the staff (it can only be seen in the kitchen from a certain angle) which says something similar, not too sure how that works, if your in the kitchen and its easier to communicate in a nother language to prevent accidents, whats the problem?

Unless of course you have about three/four languages running around then I can imagine it being quite difficult to keep track.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, I guess he could just let people speak anything they wanted to up to and including Klingon, but if nobody in the place speaks anything but English, they aren't likely to be too happy with the service.

He probably could have been a little nicer with the wording, but he might be kind of tired of people coming in and getting mad because nobody speaks anything but English. And ya'll know that some people expect all kinds of impossible things when they are customers...such as English-only clerks being able to only understand English.

I'm mostly Italian myself. When my family moved to this country, my grandfather forbade any language but English spoken by his family, even at home. He even Americanized everyone's name. The reason was because there is a stigma in Italian-American culture that anyone who refuses to assimilate when they move to the US is lazy "greaser" and a disgrace. I'm not saying I share this line of thinking, just stating that it's not that unusual for an Italian immigrant to have a very low tolerance of people lacking basic English skills. Especially if this is an older man.

[Norton]

I completely support his right to post such a sign at his business, but I think it's a bad move. If the area his business is in has a lot of immigrants, it would be wise to try to cater to them instead of putting them off with a potentially offensive sign.

At my last job, most of the employees were hispanic immigrants. In order to help our communication, I learned a lot of job-related Spanish from them. In time, we had a decent-sized hispanic customer base as well. If I served a hispanic customer and realized they were struggling with their English, I'd serve them in Spanish instead. They were pleased that I made the effort, and I gained some repeat customers that way.

Supposedly, he won't refuse to serve non-English speakers, but I still think the sign will drive them away.

[Seshat]

I like the airline industry's trick of flight attendants having language flags on their name tags. I think it's a good way to let people know which languages they can speak to CS staff in.

Even in businesses which don't have name tags, language-flag tags might not be a bad idea. CS staff who know languages other than the dominant language of the area may choose to (or not to) wear such tags.

If there are no CS staff bearing the flag signifying a language, the customer knows that to get good service, they need to speak English. (Or French, Italian, Cantonese, Tagalog - whatever the dominant language of the culture is.)

Yes, I know there are managers who'd abuse such a system. :mad: Without the abuse, I think it's a good idea. Abused, any good idea becomes a bad one.

[AFPheonix]

To be fair, ordering in a non-standard language is pretty much guaranteed to get you something weird from the kitchen.
However, the sign he put up is not particularly diplomatic. I don't know that it will affect his business much one way or another, since he'll probably attract some pretty closed-minded dimwits to go eat there even as he drives away non-fluent english speakers and their sympathizers.

Our chain will give you a little addendum to your name tag if you speak another language. I pulled off my spanish one, as I'm not super fluent and sometimes their english is better than my spanish.

[Greenday]

I understand where he is coming from. Honestly, nearly all hispanic people that have I have served try to speak to me in Spanish. And a good majority of them get pissed at me because I won't speak Spanish.

As far as there being no official language for the US, well, there was a previous thread about it, and as I stated there, English is spoken more than all the other languages put together. Spanish isn't even close. Gives it a pretty good reasoning for making it the official language.

[Seshat]

I understand where he is coming from. Honestly, nearly all hispanic people that have I have served try to speak to me in Spanish. And a good majority of them get pissed at me because I won't speak Spanish.

That's unreasonable behaviour on their part. They have no right to be angry that a random clerk in the USA doesn't speak Spanish. Just as I have no right to be angry that a random clerk in Brazil might speak only Portugese - and the Brazilian dialect of Portugese at that.

[Dorath]

Colorado had something similar a few years ago. The court found that it wasn't discrimination to hire or not hire based on language, if the majority of customers spoke a particular language.

[CancelMyService]

Reminds me of all the (usually old) morons who call in complaining our IVR system has the "press 1 for English, press 2 for Spanish" thing. "AH SHOULDNT HAFF TO PRESS WOOOON TO HEAR ENGLISH, THIS IS AMURKA".

What a silly thing to be upset about, is pressing "1" that much of a goddamned inconveinence?

Besides, the places were Spanish is spoken the most in the US (Florida, Texas, California) were speaking it before English came around anyway.

[Amethyst Hunter]

As far as there being no official language for the US, well, there was a previous thread about it, and as I stated there, English is spoken more than all the other languages put together. Spanish isn't even close. Gives it a pretty good reasoning for making it the official language.

But then what do you do with all the other languages? Do we punish people for speaking anything other than accepted English (and who would determine what "acceptable" English would be?)? I'd bet serious donuts that those who would ram this kind of law into being would go straight down that route, eventually if not right away. English is already the de facto language of the land and isn't going to die out anytime soon (not counting those who lament the state of our public schools, heh); carping about it just makes people look like dicks. (Mind you, I'm not saying that you can't get annoyed when you're losing at verbal checkers, but seriously, aren't there more important problems in the world to worry over other than a McDonald's worker who only speaks limited English (if any)? )

[Boozy]

Honestly, nearly all hispanic people that have I have served try to speak to me in Spanish. And a good majority of them get pissed at me because I won't speak Spanish.

I have seriously never heard of such ludicrous behaviour. Why would a Hispanic person walk up to someone who doesn't look Hispanic and start flapping their gums in Spanish? And then get angry when they don't speak your language? And you say this happens "the majority" of the time?

I live in an area with a huge Chinese population, and have served hundreds of Cantonese speakers. No one has ever spoken to me in Cantonese.

I'm baffled by this. I wouldn't have thought that the majority of Spanish speakers are completely unreasonable people.

[Greenday]

Alls I know is, this is my experience with hispanic people in my area back home. I know not all Hispanic people are like that. But after dealing with it a lot, I can just understand where he is coming from. Honestly, I have no idea why someone would get upset that I couldn't speak a second language. Other than out of my own interest, I have no need of learning another language to the point of mastering it. But I don't expect to go to a place like France or Germany, go to a random small suburb and expect them to know English.

Amethyst, I seriously doubt it would ever go that far. Most countries have national languages and none of them persecute people for speaking a different language. While it always would be a possibility for that kind of abuse, it is highly improbable.

[DesignFox]

I have seriously never heard of such ludicrous behaviour. Why would a Hispanic person walk up to someone who doesn't look Hispanic and start flapping their gums in Spanish? And then get angry when they don't speak your language? And you say this happens "the majority" of the time?
<snip>
I'm baffled by this. I wouldn't have thought that the majority of Spanish speakers are completely unreasonable people.

I'm not saying it happens a majority of the time...but it does happen. My store gets a fair amount of Spanish speakers coming through. And yes, I'm lily white with no accent, yet I get people who get frustrated or angry with me because I only speak English.

While the restaurant owner could certainly have worded his sign a little more nicely, I see nothing wrong with requesting his customers to order in English. While it may not be the official language of the US, it is the majority language.

Lazy asses should try to learn it. I'm not gonna move to Mexico and refuse to speak Spanish, eh?

[Rapscallion]

I had to think about this one. In many ways, it's just like a store policy regarding returns. "This is the way this company does business". I would only get upset if it was racist.

Is it impossible for a non-white to speak English? No. Ergo it's not a racial matter. However, the upshot of this is that the store in question is likely to lose trade from those who do not speak English. If there's a huge percentage of non-English speakers in the region then the shop will lose out hugely, and it would make more commercial sense to ensure that a reasonable number of staff were able to speak the locally dominant language. If it's just a couple of people, then the store doesn't really have to worry.

Anyone know the demographics of the region where that place is? All the article says is that there are an increasing number of immigrants.

Actually, I recollect a film I saw recently referring to Italian immigrants and the cultural drive towards learning the locally dominant language. If that's not just put in the script for show, then that would also be an interesting factor.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

Anyone know the demographics of the region where that place is? All the article says is that there are an increasing number of immigrants.

It's Philly, there's people of every type there. Honestly, I'd put my money on this not really hurting their business to badly. It's a very popular place. Plus, with the crazy amounts of tourists, they won't be hurting any time soon.

[flybye023]

This guy has said he has not refused service to anyone based on race. All he is saying is "order in English" so that the order can be understood. The one article or interview my sister was telling me about, he supposedly said that they are a very busy restaurant and he and his staff got tired of holding the line up for 5-7 minutes while whoever was serving had to go through the menu line by line with the customer. They also got tired of the complaints when an order came up wrong.

Also, I have had customers both Asian and Hispanic come up to me and start talking in their native language and get mad when I can't help them.

[Will-Mun]

I made a thread about this topic on the main boards, and it was civil for the most part... But the Mods rightfully locked it before it could get out of hand. So I'll chime in here...


First things first. I sympathies, truly I do. I understand how hard it is for adult immigrants to learn English. It is a very weird language, and it's difficult to learn ANY second language as an adult... But...

No Official Language or not... English is the most widely spoken language in the country. Movies are produced in English, Television is produced in English. Most news papers and Magazines are English (some have SPECIAL issues in other languages), and our schools are primarily teaching in English. English is as close to being an official language without actually becoming it.

If I ever move to another language, I will be sure to try my best to learn the official, or at least most primarily spoken language... This isn't giving up my culture... It's benefiting my ability to communicate with those around me.

When I worked in Radio Shack, we were in a place where a large percentage of the customers were Spanish Speaking... We had people on the sales floor who spoke Spanish... This would not be a problem...but then you have to realize that Radio Shack is commission based, and Cell Phone sales bring special bonuses.

I really don't like when people say it's about culture and race, cause it's not... It's about communication... Simple as that. If I move to France, I'm gonna learn French, if I move to Japan I'll learn to speak Japanese... Germany German, Mexico Spanish... It's hard I know...But it's just gonna make it easier for everyone involved.

[Seshat]

Except for refugees, noone's forced these people to leave the place where their native language was the dominant language. It's their free choice, and they should accept the consequences.

Refugees, obviously, are a special case. And usually traumatised by whatever they're fleeing from, on top of that. Even so, they'll fit in better in their new home if they learn the language - and whatever happened back home isn't the fault of the locals in their host nation.

[Jadedcarguy]

I agree with the courts and the owner. If the shop owner's employees only speak English, ordering in anything but will cause a problem.

I agree with Seshat and Will-mun, English is the most widely used language in the US. While no "official" US language exists, English is the language that pretty much all business is conducted in, as well as the language of 99% of the signs in this country.

I made a post in the main board a while back about a customer that spoke to me in Spanish after I told him several times that I didn't speak it. My job doesn't require me to speak anything BUT English, why should the employees of a sandwich shop be required to? Are they paid a wage that reflects completing a college course in foreign tongues? I seriously doubt it.

If I went to Mexico and spoke only English, I wouldn't get far. Same with most other countries that have adopted an official language other than English. What is with the bullshit line of thought here that says any language is acceptable? The sandwich shop in Philly is not any different than any other business, the owner just had the brass balls to make a policy about it.

EDIT: When you consider how many tourists go to Philly and that this shop has been in the national news, I think this shop's business will be huge for months to come. :D

[IDrinkaRum]

Besides, the places were Spanish is spoken the most in the US (Florida, Texas, California) were speaking it before English came around anyway.

The Spanish in Florida/California/Texas was Spanish spoken in Spain not from Mexico. The Spanish from Spain is a different animal altogether from the Spanish in Latin/South America. (I learned this in my college Spanish class as the teacher was from Spain, 2 girls were from Argentina, and the teacher told them they didn't know how to speak correct Spanish).

Now, I've had people come up to me speaking Spanish and getting mad at me for not speaking it. I have very fair skin, naturally curly dark brown hair & brown eyes. They assume I'm Hispanic. (And you know what assuming makes you, right? ;) ) I am Spaniard (Great-grandmother's maiden name was Cardinez - she had 2 sisters who were disowned because they married Mexicans and the Spaniards aren't supposed to dirty themselves with those below their station - not my way of thinking, but the way of the Spaniards in 1800 and 1900's so please don't flame me).

With my dark hair & eyes, I've been told I look Italian and (Southern) German too. But I haven't had Italians or Germans speak to me in their native tongue. (Okay, I haven't had any of them come into the store, but just on the off chance ... )

I know I'm rambling, but the point I have is this: Please, if you want decent/good service at any place you're at in America (or Europe or even Pluto for that matter), learn the language that is the one that is dominantly spoken. I've seen places that have signs that say "Menus in Spanish" or "We speak Spanish here" - then those are places you can speak Spanish at, but don't assume all places speak Spanish. Please, learn English.

Thank you.

[Boozy]

The Spanish in Florida/California/Texas was Spanish spoken in Spain not from Mexico. The Spanish from Spain is a different animal altogether from the Spanish in Latin/South America.

Then you may be surprised to learn that the Spanish spoken in Mexico is also "Spanish from Spain."

Where else do you suppose it came from?

[MystyGlyttyr]

Then you may be surprised to learn that the Spanish spoken in Mexico is also "Spanish from Spain."

Where else do you suppose it came from?

I'm not sure, but I think what Rum meant is that it's in the same sense that English from America is different from English from England. The one came from the other, but at this point they're both different enough that communication between the two could be difficult.

[AFPheonix]

There are several differences between Spanish spoken in Spain and Spanish in South America.
One, you rarely see the vosotros (formal for y'all) form of verbs used in South America. It is used regularly in Spain.

The other major difference is that because of the Hapsburg empire, Spaniards lisp (The rulers who had Hapsburg chins had a speech impediment that made them lisp, so everyone else lisped too so the royals wouldn't be miffed. It seems to have stuck) while South Americans do not.

Some slang is different, too, much like Kings' English and American English differ.

[IDrinkaRum]

Boozy - Mysty & AFP both said it a little better than me about the Spanish in Spain and the "New World".

As I mentioned briefly in my earlier post, my college Spanish teacher came from Spain. We had 2 girls from Argentina. I remember the first day in the class. The girls were like, "We're going to be sailing through this class! We already speak Spanish, this will be an easy grade for us. In high school, we were tutors for the rest of the class because we're native speakers."

A couple of weeks later, the teacher was correcting one of the Argentinian girl's speech when she got into a screaming match with the woman. The girl was like, "Why do you keep correcting me? I speak Spanish, just like you!"

The teacher's reaction was like, "No you do not. I speak the correct form of Spanish. You speak a garbled form of Spanish. I'm teaching you the proper way because you don't know."

That exchange opened my eyes. I've talked to people who are from Spain and from Latin/South America and their attitudes are very different. The Latin/South Americans lay claim to their Spanish heritage. The ones from Spain say they are the true Spanish & those from the "New World" aren't really Spanish and should give up the charade.

[Boozy]

As someone who learned to speak French under a Quebecois teacher, and was then ridiculed by a Frenchman for my "bastardized" use of his language, I totally understand the differences between old world and new world language.

My point was just that they didn't speak Spanish in Mexico until Spain colonized, just as they didn't speak French in what is now Quebec until France colonized. The languages then started to diverge at that point.

I do wonder why you felt the need to differentiate between "Spanish from Spain" and Spanish from Mexico, however. If the issue is expediting communication between English speakers and non-English speakers, why does it matter what form of Spanish they are speaking?

[IDrinkaRum]

It just stuck in my craw - like when people say we speak English in America, but it's really American we speak. I don't know ... I'm just weird I suppose. :(

As for learning American/English/Whatever language of the country you're in, it's a good idea. No matter what. France does have a national language and isn't it a requirement that to visit the country, you have to have at least the bare bones understanding of the language? I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but in my imagination, I'm sure it makes things easier for everyone around - those who are visiting who might be lost or hungry or whatever can communicate (with probably some pantomiming) to get their point across and not have to go through 50 people before they find someone who can understand them.

But to the OP, I have no problem with the Speak English sign. It does make everyone's life easier when everyone is on the same page, especially when there are hungry people involved.

[Greenday]

I do wonder why you felt the need to differentiate between "Spanish from Spain" and Spanish from Mexico, however. If the issue is expediting communication between English speakers and non-English speakers, why does it matter what form of Spanish they are speaking?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's not people from Spain that we deal with that we have problems with. The majority of the people who speak Spanish that we do have problems with are from Central America and South America.

[IDrinkaRum]

Greenday - that too ... I think I'm just going to stop talking about schtuff now. :o

When I worked in fast food, I had a chick come up to me, speak Spanish at me, and when I looked at her in confusion, she paused and asked, "You mean you're not Mexican?"* I said "no". Then she didn't want me taking her order. The assistant manager who came from Peru or Chile (I can't remember, we had quite a few managers/employees from various parts of South America) and did speak Spanish, had to take her order.



*When the chick asked me if I was Mexican, she asked in perfect, unaccented English (which for me means she sounded like any ol' American off the street).

[radiocerk]

I used to live in S. California. I remember people getting LOUDLY upset that I didn't speak Spanish, and being cussed at becouse of it. ( I can understand that much). People would also get upset if we didn't have someone there who spole Spanish. One of my coworkers, who was Hispanic by birth, would get yelled at for not knowing Spanish, and "not respecting her heritage". Occasionally, we would get the same behavior from people speaking Vietnamese. Not as often, but it would still happen. And I lost count of the number of times I saw a five or six year old translating for mom, dad or grandparent.

Here on the other hand, I am shocked that I can assume that people understand me when I speak. ( and am occasionally amused when someone spells Pantoja or Figueroa for me). I can understand how the business owner feels. I had gotten very used to everyone automatically assuming I spoke Spanish because I lived in S. California. ( I am bilingual, I just speak French, not Spanish. Not that high school or college Spanish would have helped me, they teach Castilian, not "New World" Spanish. I have been assured by a friend of mine from Europe that they are very differnet dialects, almost akin to English and Cajun, or Ebonics.)

[daleduke17]

And I lost count of the number of times I saw a five or six year old translating for mom, dad or grandparent.


We have that around here at the grocery stores. More than I really wanted to I needed to have the customer's kid translate, which made me a bit uneasy since I was usually conducting money transfers with the customer.

It made it easier once I learned one of the cashiers could speak damn good Spanish. No, I didn't overuse her for that, but, it came in quite handy. Yes, I did pay her back in anyway I could (covering her break, giving her extra responsibilities, etc).

[FashionLad]

I have absolutely no problem with people posting signs like that.

Here's the deal: I feel if people come to America, they need to learn the language or at least provide their own translater. At the same time, if I go to Germany, I would try and know enough of the language to get me through. I would not get mad at Germans because they don't know English. When traveling or moving, people need to take responsibility enough to learn the native language.

[lordlundar]

I can see the point of the sign, but the wording is the problem I have an issue with. It certainly could have been worded a hell of a lot better.

[rahmota]

I realized I hadnt responded to this one. I applaud the business owner in the OP. This is america. There should be an official language that ALL government and ALL business is conducted in and ANYONE who cannot read or speak that language should not be participating in that. Citizen or not if you do not have the basic decency/capacity/motivation to learn the lingua franca of the nation you are in then you dont deserve to be there or have the country or business bending over backwards to give special access to any thong, wong or jose who comes here and refuses to learn our language.

As for what to do with all thse other languages do nothign to them. If people want to speak them in their own home or with ther friends and associates thats fine. nothing wrong with or need to do about that. To do official business or government business then sorry this is america speak english.

[Jadedcarguy]

I can see the point of the sign, but the wording is the problem I have an issue with. It certainly could have been worded a hell of a lot better.

Like what? Should they have said please? The sign is concise and to the point. No problems here.

[AFPheonix]

I think the thing that got me was the bald eagle shedding a single tear in front of an American flag. It gave it a special NASCAR touch.

[lordlundar]

Like what? Should they have said please? The sign is concise and to the point. No problems here.

Oh, so a "to serve you better, please order in english" is worse?

Any time I see "This is America, do this" I see it as saying "Don't want to do this? get out of my country then" and that sign simply reinforces it.

[Jadedcarguy]

Oh, so a "to serve you better, please order in english" is worse?

That would have been fine too.

Any time I see "This is America, do this" I see it as saying "Don't want to do this? get out of my country then" and that sign simply reinforces it.

It's no different than a sign saying "This is Mexico, when ordering do so in Spanish". I've been to Mexico, and if you don't have a grasp of Spanish down there, you're hosed. Trust me, outside of the US this touchy feely "pander to everyone" crap does not exist.

[rahmota]

It's no different than a sign saying "This is Mexico, when ordering do so in Spanish". I've been to Mexico, and if you don't have a grasp of Spanish down there, you're hosed. Trust me, outside of the US this touchy feely "pander to everyone" crap does not exist.

Agreed there where several times when i was researching for my Euro trip where I ran across a tour guide book saying if you dont speak the local language even a little bit you're not going to get good service or any service in some areas. In some parts of Italy or France you may be even asked to leave the store/restraunt/dining place according to some of the guidebooks.

Oh, so a "to serve you better, please order in english" is worse Yeah that sounds a little politer but still gets the point across. I dont see a problem with that either.

I think the thing that got me was the bald eagle shedding a single tear in front of an American flag. It gave it a special NASCAR touch. I know so sweet wasnt it?

[Seshat]

Trust me, outside of the US this touchy feely "pander to everyone" crap does not exist.

There's a middle ground, though.

At my local library, there are signs and brochures in a variety of languages offering English language courses. There are also brochures and signs asking for volunteer English tutors.

My local shopping centre hires from my local community, and most (not all) of the sales staff at the Halal butcher seem to speak assorted Arabic languages.

Essentially, what seems to happen here is that if the sales staff speak the same language as you - great. If not, do your best in English. And by the way, we can help you learn English.

(My local area does have quite a few refugees, so there are people here who didn't expect to be coming to an English-speaking country: or to leave their home countries at all. English skills are encouraged for immigrants who plan to come here, but asylum for refugees is based on our capacity and their need, not language skills.)

[Jadedcarguy]

At my local library, there are signs and brochures in a variety of languages offering English language courses. There are also brochures and signs asking for volunteer English tutors.

As would be expected in a library. Not a sandwich shop.

My local shopping centre hires from my local community, and most (not all) of the sales staff at the Halal butcher seem to speak assorted Arabic languages.

I would be shocked if the Halal butcher didn't have Arabic speaking employees.

(My local area does have quite a few refugees, so there are people here who didn't expect to be coming to an English-speaking country: or to leave their home countries at all. English skills are encouraged for immigrants who plan to come here, but asylum for refugees is based on our capacity and their need, not language skills.)

Refugees are a different matter entirely, and my heart goes out to them. Still, the point here is if you go into a business in a country that predominantly speaks a language that you aren't familiar with, tough shit. I'm sure the Philly sandwich shop owner has had it up to his eyebrows with SC's demanding things in a foreign tongue, which is why the sign said what it did the way it did.

[lordlundar]

It's no different than a sign saying "This is Mexico, when ordering do so in Spanish".

And I would probably tell the owner (in an environment where I'm not going to get shot, mind you) to f-off too. It's the blind patriotism feeling I get out of it that pisses me off.

[Rapscallion]

Trust me, outside of the US this touchy feely "pander to everyone" crap does not exist.

Not been to England, have you? All council documents that I've seen have sections for various different languages. Does it irritate me? Slightly. Does it bother me enough to complain about it? No.

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

Government documents here have multi-language instructions on how to get a copy in your own language or how to get an interpreter.

[Jadedcarguy]

And I would probably tell the owner (in an environment where I'm not going to get shot, mind you) to f-off too.

You'd do that in Mexico??? Let me save you the trouble........BAD IDEA. The do not take kindly to gringos telling them how to run their shit.

[Jadedcarguy]

Not been to England, have you? All council documents that I've seen have sections for various different languages.

In Europe I'm not surprised that's the case. Driving from country to country there is like driving from state to state here. If Californians spoke a different language than Oregonians, I'm sure the official documentation would be in both languages. :)


Does it irritate me? Slightly. Does it bother me enough to complain about it? No.



Would complaining get you anywhere? :D

[lordlundar]

You'd do that in Mexico??? Let me save you the trouble........BAD IDEA. The do not take kindly to gringos telling them how to run their shit.

Hence the point in brackets.:p

[Jadedcarguy]

Hence the point in brackets.:p

:D:D An environment where you wouldn't get shot or beaten to death for that is "north" of Mexico. :)

[Greenday]

:D:D An environment where you wouldn't get shot or beaten to death for that is "north" of Mexico. :)

Yea, but Philly isn't the friendliest place in the world either.

[Dorath]

Yea, but Philly isn't the friendliest place in the world either.
Try Denver. Not being hispanic in some areas is enough to get run out of the neighborhood.

[aniwahya]

I think this is the fault of the United States government. A national language needs to be declared. What language(s) is listed as the national language doesn't matter to me, we just need some guideline or unity so we have a place to stand on.

Then again, I have had the experience of being on the inside of an immigrant community where there was no sense of urgency in learning English in order to better communicate and assimilate into American society. Which from my perspective is disrespectful to not even try. My great grandfather moved his family to the US from Germany, They barely spoke any English but upon moving here my great grandfather delivered the ultimatum that there would be no German spoken in his household, only English. Also, I would never dream of moving to France, Russia, China, Japan, etc and demanding that they speak English in order to accommodate me.

That gets complicated though, because you can never be truly sure that someone isn't trying to learn the language. Also I make an effort to communicate with people irregardless of what language they speak., and I think having a national language declared as English and Spanish would be a good thing since there are definite benefits to being multilingual and maybe it would give kids more insight into other cultures before they get so old they are jaded.

* Er, I was replying to this thread, but then noticed there is a national language thread separate from this one. While I feel that my post is appropriate in regards to this thread, when I posted it I had not yet seen the other th read, so there may be some overlap and for that I humbly apologize.*

[powerboy]

I have absolutely no problem with people posting signs like that.

Here's the deal: I feel if people come to America, they need to learn the language or at least provide their own translater. At the same time, if I go to Germany, I would try and know enough of the language to get me through. I would not get mad at Germans because they don't know English. When traveling or moving, people need to take responsibility enough to learn the native language.

Exactly. If I moved to another country, I will try to learn atleast some of the language before hand.

And for the sign. If they are not racist about it, then to me it is fine

[Slytovhand]

Hello?? hello???? Sorry - but I don't understand a word that's gone on here... except from my fellow Aussie Seshat... (damn non-Strine speakers....)


Citizen or not if you do not have the basic decency/capacity/motivation to learn the lingua franca of the nation you are in then you dont deserve to be there <snip>.

hahaha - sorry - I was amused :p (my emphasis inserted...)

Anyway, back to the debate...

How about a sign that said 'Ordering in any other language will be met with a blank stare' - because that's effectively what the owner is getting at. Yeah - a bit of delicacy wouldn't have gone astray...although the irony is - if those people don't speak English (or american) - then they aren't going to understand the sign anyway...

Over here, migrants and refugees are offered FREE English classes, and we now have English as part of the citizenship test (which they reckon is too hard - I have a bit of an issue with that, given that I, for one, have to open accounts - read legal entities - and talk about legal terms and conditions - to people who may not fully understand what I'm saying. I'm not sure that having their 9 year old translate is going to be a good legal defence to say they understood.....)

Btw - you wouldn't have that much of a problem going through much of Europe, especially the touristy places, speaking only English. For that matter, most tourist destinations in Europe have people speaking 6 languages fluently. Of course - that's different to expecting them to understand, and getting narky when they don't!

Slyt

[Lace Neil Singer]

Where I am, we occasionally get foreign workers who come thru the checkout giving me the blank stare when I try to ask them to give me their flipping money. However, it isn't possible to tell at once the difference between the "you are beneath me" stare, the "equivilent of braindeath" stare and the "sorry, I do not speak English" stare. I just wish these people could at least learn how to say "Sorry, I only speak a little English" and say it straight up, rather than expecting me to either read their mind and instantly guess that they aren't English, or break into French/Spanish/German/other. Sorry, but my French makes French people split their sides laughing. XD If I go to France tho, I use it cuz it's only right.

[ebonyknight]

I've been to this guy's store. I go to Philiy on business once or twice a year. This guy is no where near hurting. His cheese steaks are so famous he has on his website "we do not ship cheese steaks".

As far as I am concerned, this is just like with smoking establishments. It's his shop, he pays the taxes, it's his business to prosper with or ruin. Despite the sign, he does a massive amount of business.

It's his store and his product. If he wants you to stand on your head and recite the national anthem to get one of his cheese steaks, it's his prerogative. Otherwise, you can go elsewhere.

The language problem really pisses me off. I asked this guy on his bike where a particular path led to. I asked him several times, several different ways and he didn't understand me. I said thanks and in an accent as good as yours or mine, he says "no problem". WTF????

[tropicsgoddess]

I came to the US at 4 years old with my middle sister and parents from South America. We assimilated to the culture and learned the language, .You can still be in touch with your native language and/or culture, but you must adapt to the country you immigrated to. So, I'm siding with the man for his sign.

[Flyndaran]

I know that I would avoid the business and anyone that frequented it.
The vast majority of non-english speakers in the U.S. are not white, so it seems like an oblique way to be racist.
How would it seem if he barred those with fros? There are white people with fros, so it's not racist, right?

[Rapscallion]

He didn't bar people with fros, though. He's decided that he will ask that people who place orders give them in English. He will take a minor loss of revenue, but as a private business owner he is within his rights to enforce this policy. It makes things far easier for his staff, and he doesn't have to make sure there are people who can speak more than one language on the rota at any one time.

Rapscallion

[Flyndaran]

He didn't bar people with fros, though. He's decided that he will ask that people who place orders give them in English. ...
Rapscallion

But that's not what he wrote. He instead used intentionally inflamatory language and a subtle racist rant.
A reasonable sign would be, "Please order in english." simple, direct, and not bigoted in any way... and shorter too.

[daleduke17]

But that's not what he wrote. He instead used intentionally inflamatory language and a subtle racist rant.
A reasonable sign would be, "Please order in english." simple, direct, and not bigoted in any way... and shorter too.

"This is America" is not inflamatory language. Nor is it racist. It is telling the truth. When did it become bigoted to say that in response to wanting people to use a common standard to conduct business. If this was Mexico and someone wrote "This is Mexico When ordering, speak Spanish" (in Spanish, of course) would that be bigoted as well?

"When Ordering, Speak English" is reasonable. Not everything has to have "please" or "thank you" on it. If it was just this, would you have a problem with it?

[daleduke17]

Yea, but Philly isn't the friendliest place in the world either.

Isn't Philly the "City of Brotherly Love"? :D

[lordlundar]

Isn't Philly the "City of Brotherly Love"? :D

Ask someone in the Philly Transit Authority about that and see how quickly you get laughed at.:p

[ebonyknight]

"This is America" is not inflamatory language. Nor is it racist. It is telling the truth. When did it become bigoted to say that in response to wanting people to use a common standard to conduct business. If this was Mexico and someone wrote "This is Mexico When ordering, speak Spanish" (in Spanish, of course) would that be bigoted as well?

"When Ordering, Speak English" is reasonable. Not everything has to have "please" or "thank you" on it. If it was just this, would you have a problem with it?

Quite true.

In a lot of non-western languages, expressing thanks or being polite (IE using please in every question/statement) is too formal and not done except in uncommon circumstances. In other words, saying please and thank you in quite a few asian languages (not sure about arabic), is unnecessary and can be taken to be patronizing or speaking awkwardly. Hindi, is a good example.

A more common example would be with using the same word as hello and goodbye. Very unusual in Western languages, but common in non-western ones.

Sorry to jack, with that little bit of info.

[Flyndaran]

"This is America" is not inflamatory language. Nor is it racist. It is telling the truth. When did it become bigoted to say that in response to wanting people to use a common standard to conduct business. If this was Mexico and someone wrote "This is Mexico When ordering, speak Spanish" (in Spanish, of course) would that be bigoted as well?
...

Yes it was inflamatory. Unless you really believe that non-english speakers are so stupid as to not know what country they're in, it's is exclusionary language. It is in essence saying that your kind are not part of america.

If mexico is fraught with such bigots, then yes a similarly worded sign in spanish would be racist.

The rest of the sign is perfectly reasonable and simply states facts without any underlying racism.

In X years if you're in your old age home and the country's demographic has changed to make spanish the most commonly spoken langugae, would you be as blaze when similar signs pop up making you feel as if this isn't your nation?

[wanderingjoe72]

If mexico is fraught with such bigots, then yes a similarly worded sign in spanish would be racist.


This will probably stray OT quite a bit so I give my apologies now.

Ahh where to begin?

As an American of hispanic descent, and having grown up in border states (Texas, New Mexico and Arizona), I speak English and Spanish. Am I grateful for that, yes. It helps a lot when I go down to Mexico. I am able to conduct business easily. Has it come in handy elsewhere? Yes, when visiting a multinational base in Sarajevo, I was able to freely communicate with the Spanish and French soldiers there and made some friends.

To the item I quoted, Mexico is fraught with bigots, probably more than the US is. It is part of the culture in a lot of the regions and poorer neighborhoods I grew up around it, so I have seen it. Non Mexicans are mocked unless there is money to be made off them. It sickens me since my fiance is white.

I guess it is the fact that I have grown up on the borders that gives me my views. True Mexicans, love Mexico, they will travel like any other person in the world. They will be tourists see things and spend money, but they will go back to Mexico. The Mexicans that have tainted so many peoples views are the poor, uneducated (many are illiterate in their own language) that have come here through illegal means. They do not wish to assimilate, they wish to invade. They don't want to learn the language. They only seek to get as much as they can. They want to be catered to in their language because they are not Americans and don't want to be. Thes are the people that GreenDay encounters. They are angry because they are not being served in their language. They have moved north because the border states have made it harder for them, We don't want them here. It is not a racist thing, it is more of a nationalist thing. There are groups in the US and Mexico that believe that the southwest should be taken back as it was "stolen" by the white man. These groups also call anyone that doesn't want to throw the borders wide open a racist (but only the Mexican border, not the Canadian one because they are white too).

I am an American, put me next to a Mexican and you probably would have a hard time telling the difference. Am I tired of people coming up to me assuming I speak Spanish? Do I resent being told I should support "la raza" and I should be down with the cause? Yes, an emphatic yes.

What is the big deal? I guess I am tired of being prejudged (yes we do this no matter how much we deny it) against a group that I don't identify with or support just because I look like them.

Take what you will out of this rant. Thank you.

[Jadedcarguy]

Wanderingjoe, good post. :)

[The Shadow]

Trust me, outside of the US this touchy feely "pander to everyone" crap does not exist.

Rapscallion already answered this by suggesting you may never have been to England and I'll second that by suggesting you may not have been to Canada either.

Here, we're officially billingual -- English and French. All federal government offices must provide service in both languages, even in areas where francophone populations are very small to almost non-existent. At the same time, the province of Quebec is officially unilingual and the government has no qualms about enforcing the supremacy of French. So much so that for some time now, Quebec has had it's own language law known as Bill 101 which mandates that all signage for commercial business must be solely or predominantly in French. Under the law it *is* permissible for a business to have signs in other languages, but the French signs must be either bigger, have bigger type or be more numerous. In other words, French must be predominant and the law is actively enforced. Those enforcers have come to be dubbed "the language police"

In any other part of the country this would be completely unacceptable. If anyone tried to use similar tactics to enforce the supremacy and dominance of English somewhere like Ontario or BC and they'd have human rights commissions breathing down their neck in no time. Quebec however gets away with it largely because they can always use the threat of separation to get what they want.

[The Shadow]

"This is America" is not inflamatory language.

Actually, yes it is. In this case context is everything. Even immigrants who don't speak the language know bloody well they're in a foreign country where their native tongue isn't predominantly spoken, so telling them "this is America" as if they didn't know is condescending and patronizing.

So yes, in that context it *is* inflamatory.

"When did it become bigoted to say that in response to wanting people to use a common standard to conduct business.

Sometimes it's not so much WHAT was said, but the WAY something is said.

"If this was Mexico and someone wrote "This is Mexico When ordering, speak Spanish" (in Spanish, of course) would that be bigoted as well?

Yes it would.

[Greenday]

Actually, yes it is. In this case context is everything. Even immigrants who don't speak the language know bloody well they're in a foreign country where their native tongue isn't predominantly spoken, so telling them "this is America" as if they didn't know is condescending and patronizing.

So yes, in that context it *is* inflamatory.

The sign is directed to the morons who expect the workers to speak a language that isn't the common language spoken locally. They have absolutely no reasonable reason for expecting them to speak something other than English. I've dealt with people who for some dumb reason believe I should speak a different language. Saying that I don't speak whatever language they want doesn't matter. Being kind doesn't matter. Obviously they've been put through enough crap that they felt they needed to stop being nice and they felt they needed to start being a little ruder to get their point across.

[Boozy]

Sometimes it's not so much WHAT was said, but the WAY something is said.

Quoted for truth.

"Please order in English so we can understand you. Thank you!"

- versus -

"THIS IS AMERICA. Order in English."

How is the difference not obvious?

[The Shadow]

The sign is directed to the morons who expect the workers to speak a language that isn't the common language spoken locally.

As someone already pointed out, if they can't speak the local language, then they're not going to be able to understand the sign anyway. So having it is really an exercise in futility to begin with.

I've dealt with people who for some dumb reason believe I should speak a different language. Saying that I don't speak whatever language they want doesn't matter. Being kind doesn't matter. Obviously they've been put through enough crap that they felt they needed to stop being nice and they felt they needed to start being a little ruder to get their point across.

That must be incredibly frustrating and maddening and I totally sympathize. To be honest before reading this thread I had no idea it happened so frequently. But like I said, putting up this sort of sign is pointless to begin with and the only thing it *could* conceivably do is offend foreigners who do make an effort to speak the language and fully expect business to be conducted in the local language. It could be misunderstood as "This is America and we don't like hearing foreign languages at all" or the owner could be seen as prejudiced and presumptuous to assume that any non-native person who comes into his establishment is going to be incapable of speaking English and expect to be served in their own language, hence driving away more potential customers.

A smarter thing to do would have been to have the sign printed in the language of the foreign language most frequently encountered stating politely and apologetically that while they're happy to serve everyone in the community, they can only offer service in English. The translation of such a sign would cost very little I would imagine. But the owner is so frustrated he doesn't feel like being polite and tactful about it, you say? Well, that's unfortunate. But you know what? Being frustrated and angry doesn't give you the right to be arrogant and direct that anger towards people who've done nothing to deserve it.

[AdminAssistant]

And it's part of this Anglophone obsession with only speaking one language. English is a very weird, strangely constructed language with an intensely maddening vocabulary. The previous worldwide predominant language (in the Western world) was French. For every 1 word in French there are 5 words in English. That, and the fact that we accept every 'slang of the month' phrase into our dictionaries makes English a little frightening.

If I saw a sign like that, I'd turn around and leave. It shows the owner's personal bias towards 'Americans' and against foreign tourists or students who happen to have gone through life without *gasp* learning English. Or those who speak English as a second language and may have a strong accent and difficulties with the vocabulary or grammar.

Personally, I think we should all loosen up a bit and start learning other languages. Spanish, French, German, Mandarin - even if it's just to realize that there is a world out there that does not speak your language.

Here's an Eddie Izzard clip, just to lighten the mood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFrTRJP2Ha4

About 6 minutes in.

[Jadedcarguy]

Rapscallion already answered this by suggesting you may never have been to England and I'll second that by suggesting you may not have been to Canada either.


I've been to neither, but I have been outside of the US. No one gave a shit if I spoke their language or not and I was pretty much brushed aside because of it. Thus my point of view. :)

[Greenday]

It shows the owner's personal bias towards 'Americans' and against foreign tourists or students who happen to have gone through life without *gasp* learning English. Or those who speak English as a second language and may have a strong accent and difficulties with the vocabulary or grammar.

You call it bias, I call it sick and tired of dealing with assholes who refuse to speak the local language. At least most people who don't speak English or are learning English make an effort to work with the workers. But there are so many ridiculous people who expect us to cater to them because they don't WANT to learn English that it is beyond frustration.

[Sylvia727]

The article says that they were tired of going through the menu line by line. Many people find to easier to read and write than to speak and listen. In that case, a written sign would work. I mean, if you can read "sandwich" on the menu, then you can probably read "English". Yes, the language is inflammatory. I chalk that up to the guy's frustration. Someone who expects you to hold up the lunch rush to read through the entire menu with them isn't a very nice person to begin with. I can't imagine dealing with that on a daily basis, and then dealing with all of the other customers whose orders were delayed because of someone who couldn't learn enough English to order lunch.

I live in an immigrant neighborhood, and I worked at the local fast food. It's not hard to learn the dozen words necessary to order. Yeah, a lot of them had their kids order, or placed odd orders like "fish burger" or "chicken parts", but they could get their point across without rudeness on their part or mine.

The guy was just as rude as the customers who prompted him to put up the sign in the first place. We should always try to be the better person and rise above the sucky behavior of other people, but I don't see this guy as being racist or exclusatory, just frustrated and short of temper.

[Dreamstalker]

At least most people who don't speak English or are learning English make an effort to work with the workers. But there are so many ridiculous people who expect us to cater to them because they don't WANT to learn English that it is beyond frustration.
The Repair Shop From Hades was like that. The assistant's English was maddeningly poor and she didn't seem in the least interested in my trying to teach her basics (by far the biggest problem was working with someone who was supposed to supervise/delegate, but knew even less than I did--I would be confused about something but couldn't ask her). Her response when I did something that confused her (such as go looking for the breaker box out of curiosity/need to know where it is, adjust the AC, or even just being helpful to the rare customer) was to wave a hand violently in my face.

After I quit (for reasons unrelated to the topic at hand), it became crystal-clear through something the owner said that the assistant had no qualms about making shit up, and it torqued me off that I couldn't tell when she was talking trash and therefore was unable to defend myself.

[Rapscallion]

I've done some thinking on this subject, and I've amended my opinions somewhat.

The US doesn't have an official language, so the basic concept of the sign is wrong. However, I maintain my stance that he can set a policy that orders must be given in the language of his choice.

Is the language inflammatory? I certainly think it is, after some pondering. Do people have the right to be offended? Sure. Does he have the right to say it? Under the first amendment, yes, though I could see that a civil case could be brought (ie not brought by the government).

What also occurs to me is that the US is effectively fifty states in a federation - each one is pretty much a separate country in law, though not necessarily in fact. That sign could have said that it's a predominantly English speaking state, the staff only speak English, and therefore orders must be given in English. That would suit my sense of propriety far better.

Rapscallion

[wanderingjoe72]

Wanderingjoe, good post. :)

Thank you. I appreciate your comment.

[Dreamstalker]

The US doesn't have an official language, so the basic concept of the sign is wrong. However, I maintain my stance that he can set a policy that orders must be given in the language of his choice.

That sign could have said that it's a predominantly English speaking state, the staff only speak English, and therefore orders must be given in English.
That does make sense. Until universal translator implants become common, it's not possible to instantly understand someone when their spoken/body language is radically different. It would help everyone for staff to not have to play 20 Questions trying to figure out exactly what someone wants. We're not talking about learning MBA-level English, just enough to communicate the basics effectively.

[BroomJockey]

And it's part of this Anglophone obsession with only speaking one language.

Thread necomancy ftw!

Addressing points randomly sprinkled through-out the thread:
1. Sign? Not racist. Barely even bigoted. Jingoistic though? Oh yeah.

2. It is America. Even if it was racist, sexist, and ageist, he could still put it up. I doubt he'd get much business with a sign like that though.

3. American IS English. It is not a separate language. It is a dialect. It's not even a real dialect, since you've got linguistical variants depending on what part of the country you're in. You just have dialects within English, some of which are spoken in America.

4. I really don't think every sign informing people of a shop's policies needs to have "Please" and "Thank you" on it. "No smoking," "No unattended children," "English only for ordering," don't need it. It's not a request. It's a statement. Please and thank you are only for acknowledging someone is voluntarily complying with something they didn't have to do. I find it patronizing to be told "thank you" when I do something not of my own volition.

5. The bit I quoted. Cultural differences are a bitch. Using Anglophone like that in Quebec would get you a mess of enemies (It was often used as an insult, similar to racial slurs, though Francophone never was, not to the same extent), and it wouldn't be looked kindly on in the rest of Canada, to my knowledge. Further, even using Anglophone your way isn't cool. It isn't just English-speakers who don't want to learn other languages. It's anyone who happens to be ego- or ethnocentric. I've described myself as "Anglophone" occasionally, and a lot of other people I know have as well, and they're certainly not obsessed with only speaking one language. In fact, most regret that there isn't more in place to help kids or adults learn more languages around here.

6. I love how every time someone brings up an official language for the US people cry out about "What would you do with the other languages? Make the *gasp* ILLEGAL?~!" Canada hasn't been officially bilingual very long, technically speaking. 1969 with the Official Languages Act. Once that was in place, all that meant was that officially, these were what packaging, signage, and government services had to be provided in. There's nothing stopping people and companies from using additional languages, but they can't expect it from any random source. Honestly, I think it improves the situation. It makes it so that there's a minimum standard of what to expect at any given point, and then other areas with higher concentrations of other languages can provide services and products in that fashion as they need or want. I can walk in to any government office in Canada and ask for them to address me in French, or English, anywhere from BC to NFLD, and in between. I don't have to worry about going in to a predominantly Chinese area, and only receiving service in Cantonese. The only issues I see with the US official language debate as it usually crops up is that a) It's a States Rights issue, thus making it near impossible to enforce across the country, and b) It's presented as if it will be mono-linguistic. If at some point in the future, Canada became Officially Multilingual, I'd have no issues there either. I think it'd improve things, possibly. Would make it more difficult for the government to staff their offices though. :lol:
My point, however, is that an Official Language gives a point of commonality. It's a lot harder to hate someone when they can actually talk to you in a fashion you understand, but nothing says that everyone has to speak only the official language.

[Flyndaran]

...
My point, however, is that an Official Language gives a point of commonality. It's a lot harder to hate someone when they can actually talk to you in a fashion you understand, but nothing says that everyone has to speak only the official language.

It's very unamerican. Most of us like to think of this country as a melting pot in that anyone can come here to live, bringing all that makes thier previous culture great. It's ingrained, and throwing all that out with a national language would do far more harm than good.

[DesignFox]

I dunno Flyn. In the past, didn't immigrants learn the English language because they were proud to come to this country? Didn't they try to learn English to better themselves and prove that they were part of the melting pot? People made an effort to "be American" if that makes sense- they didn't want to separate themselves from the rest of the community.

To me, melting pot means that all of us make an effort to get along and create one culture from a mix. Not "we'll continue to speak whatever language and do whatever the fuck we feel like and to hell with everyone else"

If anything, us Americans are pretty darn tolerant. I haven't been out of the country myself, but from what I understand from those who have, there are certain places you go where you need to try and speak the local language. People don't cater to you for speaking English.

I have no problem with people speaking whatever language they like to speak- at home, to others who understand...whatever. But when I go to a place of business, I expect someone to speak clear English. And when customers come to me, I only speak English, so I expect them to speak to me in my native language- if they can't communicate, I see that as their problem. I don't go out of my way to be rude, and I often will refer someone to another office, but I don't waste my time.

Maybe it makes me an asshole, but I really don't care if someone can't find a place with Spanish, Chinese, German, or French speaking employees. You want to live here, make an effort to speak the predominant tongue. Don't get all pissy and entitled when the majority doesn't speak your language.

[BroomJockey]

throwing all that out with a national language would do far more harm than good.

Again, I point to Canada. I think we're much better than the US at letting people keep their original culture, while still making them part of the community, and we have two official languages. We also have an official policy of multiculturalism. No one has to throw out anything. In fact, most times, if you call ahead, you can easily get a translator for most languages to help you at any government office, so limiting the official languages to French and English isn't even much of a barrier to someone who speaks neither. What is does do is still provide that touchstone for anyone permanently living here.

[Flyndaran]

The U.S. is far too populous to ever have one culture.
If you can say that someone needs to learn english because so many other around speak only that, then you and I should learn spanish in areas of america where the vast majority speaks only spanish, right?

[DesignFox]

The U.S. is far too populous to ever have one culture.
If you can say that someone needs to learn english because so many other around speak only that, then you and I should learn spanish in areas of america where the vast majority speaks only spanish, right?

I would never choose to live or shop in an area like that because I don't speak Spanish and I don't want to. If those businesses wish to only cater to those who speak Spanish, then fine. There isn't exactly a law in place that says they can't. I don't necessarily agree with it, but they can do what they want.

I'm just saying that I've found that people who truly want to be a part of this country speak English or are at least trying.

I think that if you move to a country, you learn to speak the language of the people there.

Nothing says you can't preserve your heritage. Nothing says you can't speak your own language. But in dealing with business and government, you should damn well learn the predominant language. If you choose not to learn it, you should get over it when people who don't speak your language don't feel like dealing with you.

Being a whiny entitlement whore because someone won't take your order in Spanish doesn't fly with me. If you expect service, speak the native language.

I would not move to Germany and then complain that the shopkeeper only spoke German. I would not visit France and throw a hissy fit if my server expected me to order food in French.

I expect foreigners or immigrants in my country to extend me the same courtesy.

And I have no problem with business owners telling their customers that they will only help them if they speak English.

I, personally, don't help people who only speak [insert foreign language here]. If they are polite, I will do my best to communicate or refer them to another office. If they are not polite, I firmly tell them NO and send them on their way.

[Flyndaran]

I would never choose to live or shop in an area like that because I don't speak Spanish and I don't want to. If those businesses wish to only cater to those who speak Spanish, then fine. There isn't exactly a law in place that says they can't. I don't necessarily agree with it, but they can do what they want.

I'm just saying that I've found that people who truly want to be a part of this country speak English or are at least trying.
....

I assume you know many languages, otherwise you are demanding others do things you can't. That would make you a hypocrit. Learning languages as an adult is very difficult for most people.

Once they become citizens this becomes their country just as much as those of us born to it.
You actually want a law to force non-english speakers to only operate in public in english even when talking to other non-english speakers? That crap is what nearly destroyed native american culture, when they were abused into only speaking english in public.

[DesignFox]

I<snip>
You actually want a law to force non-english speakers to only operate in public in english even when talking to other non-english speakers? That crap is what nearly destroyed native american culture, when they were abused into only speaking english in public.

I don't think that's what I said...

I was merely stating that people SHOULD speak English if they expect to do business in a country that predominantly has ENGLISH speaking people.

I said nothing about making laws that say people should be arrested, or otherwise abused.

Actually, if you re-read my posts, I think I said that it's fine for people speak whatever language they wish.

I just said I have *no sympathy* for someone who comes to my country, refuses to speak the primary language, and then throws a shit fit because a business won't cater to them.

Sorry. No. I have absolutely no problem with any business telling people they have to speak their language if they expect to be served. If I can't understand you, how the fuck can I help you?

It's courtesy. Nothing more. Nothing less.

If I moved to France, I would learn to speak French. Sure it's difficult. But I would not make the entire population of France cater to my stupid ass because I'm lazy. If I want to be a citizen of another country, I do as they do.

I speak only English. Therefore, I stick to areas where people speak *gasp* English!

I'm sick of this PC bullshit. Do whatever you (generic you) want. But don't get all in a fluff when other people do whatever THEY want. If you don't like the fact that all the local businesses only have owners/employees that only speak English, move! Or learn the damn language!

[lordlundar]

Geeze, how did I miss these posts?:D

Here, we're officially billingual -- English and French. All federal government offices must provide service in both languages, even in areas where francophone populations are very small to almost non-existent. At the same time, the province of Quebec is officially unilingual and the government has no qualms about enforcing the supremacy of French. So much so that for some time now, Quebec has had it's own language law known as Bill 101 which mandates that all signage for commercial business must be solely or predominantly in French. Under the law it *is* permissible for a business to have signs in other languages, but the French signs must be either bigger, have bigger type or be more numerous. In other words, French must be predominant and the law is actively enforced. Those enforcers have come to be dubbed "the language police"

In any other part of the country this would be completely unacceptable. If anyone tried to use similar tactics to enforce the supremacy and dominance of English somewhere like Ontario or BC and they'd have human rights commissions breathing down their neck in no time. Quebec however gets away with it largely because they can always use the threat of separation to get what they want.

Want to know how Quebec gets away with it? Simple, they didn't sign the constitution. A such, the Federal gov't can't do anything about it.

You call it bias, I call it sick and tired of dealing with assholes who refuse to speak the local language. At least most people who don't speak English or are learning English make an effort to work with the workers. But there are so many ridiculous people who expect us to cater to them because they don't WANT to learn English that it is beyond frustration.

And yet, a large number of Americans go to places where English is not used, let alone not the predominant language and expect everyone they deal with to cater to them and learn English just so the Americans can communicate without having to learn anything. And most of the Americans that do that feel the same way you do Greenday.

[Nyoibo]

And yet, a large number of Americans go to places where English is not used, let alone not the predominant language and expect everyone they deal with to cater to them and learn English just so the Americans can communicate without having to learn anything. And most of the Americans that do that feel the same way you do Greenday.

The difference is that they are usually ignorant tourists, not people who are actually moving to that country to live.

[BroomJockey]

The difference is that they are usually ignorant tourists, not people who are actually moving to that country to live.

I'd say the sentiment is still equal in validity, if not of degree. You just don't need to become fluent, or even conversational. Bring a phrase book or something. Most places will cut you slack if it's clear you're trying. If you're unwilling to make an effort to speak the language of where you're going, don't go there.

[Flyndaran]

I'd say the sentiment is still equal in validity, if not of degree. You just don't need to become fluent, or even conversational. Bring a phrase book or something. Most places will cut you slack if it's clear you're trying. If you're unwilling to make an effort to speak the language of where you're going, don't go there.

Okay. I guess I misunderstood what you meant. I think you and I have quite different ways of writing, so don't be surprised if I misunderstand you again. I don't mean any offense.

Funny thing about language: my girlfriend's best friend spent a couple of years here in the states from Turkey. She eventually began to think in english and developed an accent in her native language. She went back, and people thought she was born in the U.S. Talk about surreal.

[BroomJockey]

Okay. I guess I misunderstood what you meant. I think you and I have quite different ways of writing, so don't be surprised if I misunderstand you again.

Yes, my writing style is rather... unique... I rarely mean to cause offence, myself, so I know some of where you're coming from.

[DesignFox]

I'd say the sentiment is still equal in validity, if not of degree. You just don't need to become fluent, or even conversational. Bring a phrase book or something. Most places will cut you slack if it's clear you're trying. If you're unwilling to make an effort to speak the language of where you're going, don't go there.

This!

Yes, my writing style is rather... unique... I rarely mean to cause offence, myself, so I know some of where you're coming from.

And I totally understand!

[AdminAssistant]

I'd say the sentiment is still equal in validity, if not of degree. You just don't need to become fluent, or even conversational. Bring a phrase book or something. Most places will cut you slack if it's clear you're trying. If you're unwilling to make an effort to speak the language of where you're going, don't go there.

:yes:

One of the tips I've gotten for when I go to France (and I will go..one day...dammit!), is to at least use basic words like pardon, merci, bonjour, etc. A lot of Europeans do know English, but it doesn't mean they all like to speak it.

On the other hand, my friend who's a classicist and has spent several summers in Greece told me that Greeks love to speak English. She said she'd go somewhere and would talk to someone in her somewhat fractured Greek, and they'd reply in English. But she wanted to practice her Greek, so she'd keep speaking in Greek. But the Greek person wanted to practice their English, so they'd keep speaking in English. She said it happened all the time. :shrug:

At any rate, if I were going anywhere I'd make sure I know these phrases in the native language: Hello, goodbye, thank you, you're welcome, excuse me, I'm sorry, I would like (beer, wine, food), Where is the bathroom, and Do you speak English? And perhaps something to indicate that you're American/Canadian/British/etc. and didn't mean to insult their mother, just in case you mispronounce a word.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I'd say the sentiment is still equal in validity, if not of degree. You just don't need to become fluent, or even conversational. Bring a phrase book or something. Most places will cut you slack if it's clear you're trying. If you're unwilling to make an effort to speak the language of where you're going, don't go there.

Agreed. My French is very patchy and I mispronounce words a lot, or get the gender wrong. However, whenever I go to France, out it comes. XD I also notice how I get excellent service at shops and restaurants, cuz I am trying to speak French, unlike a lot of the lazy arse Brits who go to France and just speak English. Yes, most of these people can speak English; they just appreciate a visitor to France at least making an effort to speak the native language.

[fireheart17]

Agreed. My French is very patchy and I mispronounce words a lot, or get the gender wrong. However, whenever I go to France, out it comes. XD I also notice how I get excellent service at shops and restaurants, cuz I am trying to speak French, unlike a lot of the lazy arse Brits who go to France and just speak English. Yes, most of these people can speak English; they just appreciate a visitor to France at least making an effort to speak the native language.

From what I know, it's the same in Japan. I haven't been overseas...yet, but if you can make an attempt to speak the language, the people will be pleased.

As for my French, it's getting better but like you lace, I go get the genders wrong. I also cracked a really bad joke once about how French are really good lovers because there are two genders, but Germans aren't because they're neutered (i.e. they have three genders in language: female, male and neuter). Apologies to German-speakers here.

My Japanese is extreeemely patchy tho, but it's getting there.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Here is my total mastery over the Japanese language:

Hai = Yes.

I would not do well over there. O.o You'd think that after all the subbed animes I've watched, I'd be better than that, but no. -.- Is it a difficult language to learn?

[anriana]

Here is my total mastery over the Japanese language:

Hai = Yes.

I would not do well over there. O.o You'd think that after all the subbed animes I've watched, I'd be better than that, but no. -.- Is it a difficult language to learn?


Who doesn't know domo aragato? Gosh!

http://www.enemieslist.net/japanese/ a humorous article about how difficult it is to learn Japanese.

It is one of the hardest languages for English speakers to use. The school that trains government agents puts it with Korean and another Asian language as the ones that require the most instruction hours to learn - at least double ones like Spanish and Italian.

[Nyoibo]

I didn't find it that much harder to learn Chinese than French or German, I've decided I'm not going to bother to learn to read Japanese when I learn it, at least not at first.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I respect the guy's right to post the sign, and under certain circumstances mentioned before to be annoyed at an assumed capacity or necessity to cater to other languages he or his employees don't know.

I also think that if someone is making an honest attempt to do it in English, they deserve to be helped along if at all possible, if only because I would be in that exact same position should I ever travel to Germany, trying, but far from fluent (very VERY far from fluent... :(). I do see it as common courtesy to try and speak the language when you travel, try harder if you're living there :D

[Flyndaran]

I respect the guy's right to post the sign, and under certain circumstances mentioned before to be annoyed at an assumed capacity or necessity to cater to other languages he or his employees don't know.
...
I don't have problem with what the sign maker may have meant. I just don't like the racist wording.

[muses_nightmare]

The casino I used to work at had a rule stating that players could only speak english when cards were out on the table, this mainly applied to poker games (Hold 'em especially). Given I live in Canada and we do have two official languages, but a lot of players were East Indian, and they often refused to shut up for even two seconds. I get a headache when people are speaking a language I understand constantly, but when I don't understand it :eek: . I think the casino should have put up signs stating English only when cards are in play, or english only at poker tables, would have saved the dealers a lot of trouble that's for sure.

[violetyoshi]

I agree with the sign, I also do not see any racial component in it, since it does not specify any specific race. If I wanted to go live in Japan, I'd have to understand Japanese. True for most countries in the world outside of England and the USA, you need to know the language there, since the majority of people speak it.

It's the guy's restaurant, he has a right to decide who he serves to. If it was such a problem, the restaurant would've been shut down. He's simply asking that when you order something, know what your ordering and how to say it. It's a place of business, not an ESL center.

I say he should at least give a break to people who are speaking broken English, because it's a sign they at least are putting in the effort to learn the language of this country. Oh, and as far as this country not having an official language, over 90% of people in the USA speak English. Maybe it's an unofficial official language, but that's the reality of the situation.

As far as race, this has nothing to do with race. He wouldn't sell food to a White person who didn't speak English, the issue here is the language.

I feel a person should have a choice to whom they serve at their place of business, if they loose a lot of money from that decision, they will have to deal with the consequences of that. What shouldn't happen is people getting excited, yelling out claims of racism, or saying "Nobody is immigrant" at rallies.

We're providing safe habor for people, who may have no opportunities elsewhere, the least they can do is bother to speak our language.

[Flyndaran]

...
We're providing safe habor for people, who may have no opportunities elsewhere, the least they can do is bother to speak our language.

I love how you include us in that diatribe. This is the U.S.; if you want to speak an american language, learn cherokee.
I've got to ask how many languages you know. Not everyone can learn them so easily. I wouldn't be able to learn them as an adult very well. Should I be banned from moving where I please and can find work?

[Greenday]

I've got to ask how many languages you know. Not everyone can learn them so easily. I wouldn't be able to learn them as an adult very well. Should I be banned from moving where I please and can find work?

That doesn't change how absurd it would be to move to a country and refuse to learn the main language, then expect everyone to cater to your every whim.

[Flyndaran]

That doesn't change how absurd it would be to move to a country and refuse to learn the main language, then expect everyone to cater to your every whim.

Why? This country loudly proclaims itself a land of new opportunity for everyone, not just english speakers.
Most citizens that don't speak fluent english don't expect everyone to cater their whims. That's a myth as jerks abound in every group.

Will you learn fluent spanish if it overtakes english in the U.S.? Somehow I doubt it. (If in England then replace with whatever language that might overtake english.)

[Lachrymose]

(If in England then replace with whatever language that might overtake english.)

Cockney :p

[Greenday]

Why? This country loudly proclaims itself a land of new opportunity for everyone, not just english speakers.
Most citizens that don't speak fluent english don't expect everyone to cater their whims. That's a myth as jerks abound in every group.

Will you learn fluent spanish if it overtakes english in the U.S.? Somehow I doubt it. (If in England then replace with whatever language that might overtake english.)

If it didn't happen, this thread wouldn't have occurred. Some person who spoke only another language and refused to learn English, our main language, went into his shop and pissed the guy off. It happens. It's not a myth. It isn't every single immigrant, but it happens plenty.

And realistically, America has no longer become the land of new opportunity for immigrants. It hasn't been like that for a bit now.

And I already know Spanish, so I have that situation covered.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Cockney :p
Nope, Chav. O_o

[violetyoshi]

If it didn't happen, this thread wouldn't have occurred. Some person who spoke only another language and refused to learn English, our main language, went into his shop and pissed the guy off. It happens. It's not a myth. It isn't every single immigrant, but it happens plenty.

And realistically, America has no longer become the land of new opportunity for immigrants. It hasn't been like that for a bit now.

And I already know Spanish, so I have that situation covered.

Well I guess I would have to then, fortunately we're not living in Meximerica yet.

[joe hx]

one thing i've always liked about america is that we have no official language. why? for one thing, it makes a great trick question.

if we did declare an official language, wouldn't there have to be official dictionaries and official spellings and grammars [sic]? would congress have to approve new words?

also, curious - is there anyone on this board whose first language isn't english?

[Flyndaran]

Well I guess I would have to then, fortunately we're not living in Meximerica yet.

That is very racist: I hope unintentionally so.
Would you like if I called it Englishcrackermerica? My ancestors had to deal with absurd bigotry for being Irish. Would you decry their culture adding to the U.S.?

[AdminAssistant]

if we did declare an official language, wouldn't there have to be official dictionaries and official spellings and grammars [sic]? would congress have to approve new words?

If anything, there would be a government appointed group, something like the Acadamie Francaise that looks over the language. Honestly, I would go for that, because I'm tired of words and phrases like "bling bling" and "EVOO" being added to English dictionaries. We have no respect for our language; we treat it like crap. I admire the lengths that the French go to to protect their language.

[Flyndaran]

If anything, there would be a government appointed group, something like the Acadamie Francaise that looks over the language. Honestly, I would go for that, because I'm tired of words and phrases like "bling bling" and "EVOO" being added to English dictionaries. We have no respect for our language; we treat it like crap. I admire the lengths that the French go to to protect their language.

That's a perfectly good example of getting old. Those young whippersnappers are ruining the language with their nasty slang.... STAY off my lawn! Bling is rather old from what I know, and EVOO is just an acronym no stranger than SNAFU. Awful and cool were once slang, so please get off your high horse and join us here in normal english use.

[Boozy]

I admire the lengths that the French go to to protect their language.

They're not protecting their language, they're killing it. It is no longer a living, versatile language. Writers love English; there are thousands of ways to say what they want. French doesn't offer them the same flexibility.

[AdminAssistant]

That's a perfectly good example of getting old. Those young whippersnappers are ruining the language with their nasty slang.... STAY off my lawn! Bling is rather old from what I know, and EVOO is just an acronym no stranger than SNAFU. Awful and cool were once slang, so please get off your high horse and join us here in normal english use.

Sorry, grading papers written by college students has made me cranky and cynical, because they don't know how to seperate 'slang' from proper American English. I'm not saying there isn't a place in the language for slang and colloquialisms, I'm from the South for pity's sake, but they don't belong in papers or in Merriam-Webster.

Restrictions on anything force creativity in writers. The implementation of neo-classical rules on theatre by the Academie didn't make for very interesting plays by our standards, but some of the best dramatic poetry ever written was created because there were no other options. Poetry was the only tool the playwright was left with. Do Americans like Phedre? No, because our attention spans are too short for it. But that doesn't stop Racine from being one of the greatest dramatic poets who ever picked up a pen.

[BroomJockey]

if we did declare an official language, wouldn't there have to be official dictionaries and official spellings and grammars [sic]? would congress have to approve new words?

Again, using Canada as an example of a country with official languages: No.

Parliament doesn't have crap to do with approving words. We've got the "Oxford Canadian Dictionary," and Canadian Style Guides for grammar, but that's because we're a hybrid of American and British styles for English. And Quebecois French is different from Parisian French, so even their Language Academy doesn't really have much sway over here.