Official Languages for the US [Archive]

AFPheonix

01-06-2007, 10:27 PM

In a country like this, we HAVE to have one main language common to all, and by default it's English. Should we make it the official language? No, and here's why I think so:
Unlike most every other country, well, perhaps with the exception of Canada, we are predominantly a nation of immigrants, all of whom have their own set of languages and backgrounds. It's the melding together of all of these that makes this such a cool place.

I do think that everyone should have at least one other language under their belts, however. I also think that second languages need to start being offered in grade school as opposed to high school, because the ability to learn and retain that language will be much higher if learned earlier. Part of the reason why my place of work is getting to be so popular is because there's a variety of languages spoken by employees, it makes it a nicer experience for everyone.

And like I've stated before, there may very well be lazy people who "refuse" to learn the language, but in my experience with migrant workers and customers, most really try to learn rudimentary English skills. They have to if they want to be able to move up. One of the stall cleaners at my Trainer's barn would work his ass off all day at a lot of different barns, then go to class by night to learn, and he'd stop me a lot if he had questions on vocabulary and grammar. He was a cool guy, I'm glad he got to go back home to hang with his wife again.

rahmota

01-06-2007, 10:34 PM

So first off, according to the US Govt CIA World fact Book there is no federal level official language though english is the defacto language of trade in this ocuntry. All documents must be available in english or spanish with other translations available as needed or translation help.

Some states do have an official language of record which is English.

Personally I would like to see the official language designated as english. I mean if I where to go overseas or south of the border the people and govt are not goin to bend over backwards and go out of their way to provide me with english documents and translations as we do in this country.

Also even though we are a melting pot and to paraphrase the army's new recruitment slogan we are a nation of individuals we should still have certain things in common to cement that diverse group of individuals into a nation. A common ground brings people together into a sense of unity that lessons the us vs them attitude which makes people easier prey for the hatred and manipulation of those who would take advantage of nay cracks in a society, region or group to foment unrest and trouble. And the whole point of a melting pot is for everything to join together and increase the worht of the whole thing.

This is not to say make it illegal to keep your home language or to have a second language. One can have unity without total uniformity. Just have the language of trade, government, and public information be english. If this is to be a multicultural world, country or society then part of that culture is learning the main language of the country you are living in.

Scottya21

01-08-2007, 05:04 AM

linguist

01-09-2007, 03:13 AM

I think that both English should be the official language, and everyone should be forced to take accent reduction classes until they're comprehensible. I misunderstand more people because I can't tell that they're speaking english... Granted I'm used to having people of various native languages come up and try to talk with me, so I'm conditioned to attempt to identify other languages first, but still.

and who then is to be the arbiter of comprehensibility? i for one have never had trouble understanding anyone whose native language is other than english, but there are some native english speakers i've found incomprehensible.

accent isn't something that can be just trained away. english has a phonological inventory containing numerous sounds not found in other languages, which can be very difficult for a non native speaker to pronounce. in vowels alone, we have 14, whereas most languages have less than half that. from birth our neurological pathways begin being set by what we hear, and that translates into ease of articulation when we begin speaking. that's what accent is--applying native phonology, tone, and stress patterns to non-native language. i've been speaking spanish most of my life, but as it's not my native language, i'll never be able to do it without an accent.

rahmota

01-10-2007, 02:10 AM

I know what you mean about accents. I've run across non native english speakers who have less of an "accent" than some of the people I know who have been born and raised in appalachia.

It can be difficult to train away an accent, especially if in your daily speech you don't make conscious thought to catch yourself and stop using the accent. I took some speech/public speaking/theator classes in college and when i started I was told I have a definate appalachian accent which I had to stop and think about.

I would just be happy to have a person speaking english enough to understand what is going on and communicate the basic idea of the transaction/issue/problem.

rdp78

01-25-2007, 03:22 AM

Well, I really didn't know that the US didn't have a national langauge until I saw something about it on cs.com however I always have throught it was like millions of my countrymen and women because this is the first language that we were taught in school not to mention learn to speak. I mean in order to be an US citizen you have to learn English. I also remember when studying US history that when this country was forming Congress had to decided on a official language and it was English however, I heard French was close but maybe it was just how they were conducting the meetings. I'm still not sure if an official language will be great idea but I think its more of a state issue then of national issue.

protege

01-26-2007, 04:30 PM

I know what you mean about accents. I've run across non native english speakers who have less of an "accent" than some of the people I know who have been born and raised in appalachia.

This is true. I've run into several non-native people who can speak English better than some of the idiots who were *born* here, mainly the ebonics speakers and the stereotypical 'trailer trash' citizens.

AFPheonix

01-26-2007, 05:50 PM

Heh we had a customer yesterday who just cracked me up. He was being helped by our intern, who is Indian. He asked her if she was from India, and then complimented her English skills, and just kind of generally made an ass of himself. After he left, I told her she should have said "Thank you, come again" ala Apu from the Simpsons.

She about died laughing.

BusBus

01-27-2007, 10:23 PM

Accent reduction classes? Are you kidding me? I have a much easier time understanding non-native english speakers than some folks who are from english speaking countries (I have the worse time with the Kiwi accent). Maybe this comes from living in a city where 50% of the residences were born abroad, so accents don't faze me.

Living in a country with two official languages (French and English), I can tell you this: it probably won't change anything. I cannot go to a store and get service in French. Signs are not bilingual, unless you're at a federal government office or at the airport. In fact, lots of stores display signs in non-official languages (hell, sometimes not even in English). Most places will have service and signs in the language(s) most spoken in that particular community.

And yes, there are people who refuse to learn English. There are people who send their elderly, non-english speaking parents out and about and expect the world to conform to their needs. It's frustrating when all you can say is, "I can only speak English and French".

As far as I can say, declaring a language as official will not motivate anyone to learn to speak english.

rahmota

01-29-2007, 01:15 AM

Protege: I know what you mean about that. Its like they are trying to go out of their way to reinforce the stereotypes. What really makes me laugh and cry about the future of humanity is the white gangsta rapper wanna bes that people call "wiggers" doing the whole ebonics crud. The closest these white bread suburbia born kids have gotten to the real hood is watching Vh1.

BusBus: true declaring an official language probably will be just like many of the other laws people ignore because it isnt convenient or acceptable for them.

suchislife

02-01-2007, 12:01 AM

this is a quote from an e-mail I recieved that I thought would be very relevant to this debate, it's mainly based on whats been happening in Auz, but the same principle would apply to any country really.

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go", then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.
We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

rahmota

02-25-2007, 10:15 PM

Well the thread on CS about the racist person wanting to make an appointment brought me over here to respond to this.

The comment was made about businesses haivng the spanish (or other language) option available on their automated system. Or as has been on a few I've called they will say the greeting in english then repeat it in the other language.

To me thats more of the degredation of the english language here in america. Another chance that the immigrants or others who came to this country to practice their language skills. I'd personally like to see it kept to plain english on the automated systems.

Rubystars

02-25-2007, 11:49 PM

I'd personally like to see it kept to plain english on the automated systems.

It just makes it easier for them not to assimilate, which is bad.

DesignFox

03-01-2007, 12:57 AM

I think if you come to America, you should have to learn English. I get annoyed running around seeing signs in Spanish and English- having to listen to Spanish on automated systems, or dealing with people who only speak Spanish so I have to translate through their 8 year old kid. Learn the language! I know it isn't officially the language of the U.S.- but c'mon! Most of the population communicates in English- you should, too!

I give huge props to the people who try and learn. I have patience for that. I do not have patience for the few people I have come across who refuse to assimilate. We all have our cultures, our traditions and heritage to be proud of, but we also have a responsibility to one another to find some common ground. When in Rome....

Rubystars

03-01-2007, 03:47 PM

Design, if you deal with only a 'few' who refuse to learn then you're lucky. Quite often, I've had people scowl and quite obviously say nasty things about me to people they're with when I tell them I'm going to have to call someone to translate.

If they're alone, they'll often roll their eyes or act like I'm inconveniencing THEM!

I've even had people come up to me and just start jabbering away in Spanish and I have to tell them I don't understand and then they'll get very angry and say "You need to learn Spanish!"

This always puzzles me because obviously they know at least some English if they can say that, and I usually answer with, No, I don't.

I probably will eventually, just so I can understand more, but I will do my best to reply in English, because I feel catering to them only makes the problem worse.

I have a sucky customer story that probably doesn't belong on the main board. There was a Hispanic couple who came up and unloaded their groceries and I started scanning them, and the woman was holding a young girl in her arms, apparently her daughter. The woman started talking in Spanish and I didn't recognize any of the words and I was focused on scanning the groceries so I didn't realize she was trying to talk to me!

All of a sudden she said "Hey! Hey!" I looked up and I saw that she was suddenly very angry with me. I wondered what the heck I did! She said "I'm talking to you! Why are you ignoring me?" I said "I'm sorry, since you were speaking in Spanish I thought you were talking to your daughter."

She had a look on her face like I just said the most horrible thing ever to her. Then she starts talking in Spanish again and I tell her I don't understand anything she's saying. Her ire gets even hotter and I call for a Spanish speaking associate. My CSM came over to see what was going on and the man started jabbering away at her in Spanish. She doesn't speak it either and she said "Sorry, I don't understand, I'm going to have to call someone." The couple rolls their eyes and acts like we're insulting them.

Finally the woman gave up and started speaking in clear and understandable English about how they'd been mistreated and how racist we were.

The thing that makes me so angry about this story was that they could speak English, they just were refusing to and were trying to force us to speak their (foreign) language.

DesignFox

03-01-2007, 04:35 PM

and that ruby, is why the U.S. should officially change the language to English. That is unbelievable. :mad:

Rubystars

03-01-2007, 05:37 PM

Both major parties are for open borders. Both don't want to risk 'offending' Hispanic voters, who vote either legally or illegally. Bush keeps talking about a guest worker program, which will literally flood my city and many other cities with non-English speaking immigrants from Mexico and other countries who will not return home when their work permit expires.

Every time people talk about a wall, or putting troops on the border, or expediting the process of deporting illegals, they're smeared as racist!

I feel so sad because it's not that I hate Mexicans, it's that I love American/Texan culture and I feel that it's being destroyed in this area.

Rapscallion

03-01-2007, 06:33 PM

Over here, the 'problem' is cheaper labour coming in from Eastern Europe. Polish plumbers have pushed the British lads out of the market, for the most part. However, turn this around - the natives have actually priced themselves out of the market. There are people willing to do the same work for less money, and they are usually up to the same or better standard of work. Maddox did a really amusing write-up of this, though I'm too lazy to look it up. I'd also prefer to rely on myself for this.

"Voe either legally or legally." Oh dear - have you never heard of Al Capone? He once famously said "Vote early, vote often." There are many non-hispanics who have cheated at the ballot box. One of the most famous examples in the UK was a council that gerrymandered those less likely to vote for the ruling party into one area to spread their support out in order that they gained more wards. Dame Shirley Porter was heading that group, if you need a Google reference point. Her team were the true-blue Tories - Conservatives. It's not a matter of race.

Where I stand on the issue is that someone wanting to live in a country or region should learn the local language, mostly because it's downright rude, but where do you draw the line? There are large areas of the US where Spanish is the predominant language. In those areas, sure, speak Spanish. If I lived in one of those regions, I'd learn it. It's just as hard for me to learn that as it would be for them to learn English, what with turnabout being fair play. Until the government does something legally, there will never be a change in those areas.

Of course, if I came to live in a predominantly English-speaking part of the US, I'd reserve the right to teach you how to spell correctly, but that's been a running rivalry since I started on the Internet :p

Rapscallion

Rubystars

03-02-2007, 03:49 AM

Rapscallion

03-02-2007, 04:45 AM

I agree that there are plenty of white people who break the voting laws. One reason that I mentioned the illegals voting illegally is that one of the major ways they get jobs, etc. is through identity theft. Some do it through false IDs, but many others get genuine social security numbers, etc. by stealing someone else's (Either a citizen or legal resident's) identity.

Interesting and bold claim - how many is 'many'? How many immigrants are there, for that matter?

With citizen's stolen identity, many of them vote. The ballots are even bilingual to make it easier for them. *sighs* Also there's a big problem with 'anchor babies'. We have an outdated (in light of current issues) system of jus soli where if a baby is born here, they automatically become a citizen. That means that all an illegal immigrant has to do is reproduce and they have an "American citizen" child. Often, if they have such a child, deporting them is much harder. Also, when this child gets old enough to vote, they won't be voting to send mama and poppy back home.

Again, I'm curious as to what percentage of voters are ispanic. How do you know that so many are voting illegally? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to keep their heads down? Whose identity would they be stealing? Most hispanics I've met have a somewhat darker skin tone, and names such as 'Northman' etc would be somewhat of a giveaway.

The thing about children getting citizenship when born in a country is standard. If my parents had not filled in the correct paperwork, I would have had to perform national service for Germany - my father was in the military. The upshot of that line of argument comes down to people not being allowed to breed unless they can prove their citizenship. Unenforceable.

If Spanish speakers outnumber English speakers in some areas, it's because many of them have gotten here illegally and I think that should never be rewarded. It's possible that soon the USA will have more Mexicans than Mexico! They also tend to have many more children than Americans, because they are predominantly (of course not all of them) Catholic, and Catholics don't believe in birth control.

Again, numbers? People from countries who tend to have larger families also tend to find that they suffer far higher rates of infant mortality. Want to trade with them?

Strict catholism is against birth control, though there are some methods allowed, such as timing sexual activity to risks of fertility (rhythm method), as well as the good old abstinence. Not every catholic is strict and obeys every rule. However, a child raised in a religious household is less likely to break the law, I think - moral codes are sometimes a good thing.

As to how many got there illegally, if that were upheld, how many of the white americans have learned to speak any of the 'first nation' languages? I don't recall there being many requests for permission to settle.

This means that while your average middle class American Mary Smith may have 1 or 2 children, 3 if she wants a 'big family', her neighbor Maria Rodriguez is much more likely to have 5 or more children, sometimes as many as 16 or more.

Hmm - any figures? Are you relying only on anecdotes for this? Sixteen children - that would make down below into quite the thoroughfare, yes?

Fact is that children are expensive. Those children are generally being deprived of the luxuries that a non-hispanic would expect, such as a television each, and maybe a game system to go with it. Instead, they're forced to actually go outside and *gasp* exercise through play, or perhaps fall victim to the higher mortality rate. Whichever floats their boat, I guess.

There's always this sort of teething trouble with immigration - people used to say many of the same thing about black immigrants over here. I hear similar things about middle-eastern immigrants as well. It's the generation that the initial immigrants produce that interest me. I know a few, and as happened with the black immigrants, they're generally well educated, well spoken, restrained in their tendency to have many children, great work ethic (taught by their parents, I believe), and so forth.

Give it a couple of decades and I think you'll see a difference. This sort of thing happens with every wave of immigration.

Rapscallion

AFPheonix

03-02-2007, 07:25 AM

What I found interesting during the legal/illegal immigration protests we had last year was that they were made up mostly of hispanics. We have plenty of illegals coming from other places like China too. I suppose they just had the good sense to stay out of the limelight.

Perhaps it's because of where I live or the fact that I'm fluent enough in Spanish to get by, but it's pretty rare that I run into a Spanish-speaking SC. Most of the guys that I know from the horse industry (stall cleaners, guys you pick up on a weekend to buck a few tons of hay) are pretty nice, and are working pretty hard to learn English.
I'm sure at some point I'll run into an asshole, but so far, predominantly the assholes I run across are English speakers.

Frankly, building walls and patrolling the borders are a short term fix, and aren't that great to start with. We will continue to have issues with huge waves of immigration until Mexico gets it's shit together. Can our country help with that? I imagine so, but change will have to start and continue from within.

squall

03-02-2007, 11:30 AM

http://www.dontspeakforme.org/

Rubystars

03-02-2007, 01:25 PM

http://redtape.msnbc.com/2006/03/hidden_cost_of_.html

"Behind many of the nation’s millions of undocumented workers are someone else's documents. To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often borrow one. "

"Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Americans are right now sharing their identities with immigrants and don't know it. It is the dirty little secret of the immigration issue: By not dealing directly with the undocumented worker situation, the U.S government is actually encouraging identity theft. In fact, one can argue that the origins of the identity theft epidemic can be traced to the immigration issue."

Personally, I think that the article underestimates the problem. There are millions of illegal immigrant workers in this country. Sometimes, they even steal children's or minor's identities because the kids often don't find out about it until they try to apply for a credit card.

This site:
http://www.illegalaliens.us/votefraud.htm

has a lot of information about how illegal aliens vote.

I'm not sure what percentage of them are voting, but it's hard to know that kind of thing for certain when they don't have proper documentation in the first place. What we do know is that politicians are taking this voting bloc seriously and are not, as a consequence, doing much to help. Bush, with his idea of a guest worker program, is basically trying to open the door for millions more to come in and just hang around after their work permits have expired, even as he gives lip service to tightening border security. The democrats, on the other hand, fight border controls at every opportunity.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20040923-104542-8488r.htm
This article, written in 2004, shows how easy it is.

"Beyond requiring applicants to sign a pledge on voter-registration forms affirming that they are U.S. citizens, there is no way to prevent the nation's estimated 8 million to 12 million illegal aliens from casting ballots in November, area elections officials said. "

The article also claims that it's apparently a small percentage that actually vote, but then it's also a small percentage of the general population that actually votes. There is also no way to really track how many of them vote, so it's hard to know how they came to that conclusion. The important thing is that it's "certainly not zero."

They make a significant contribution to that all-important swing vote, the ones who are not loyal to one particular party, but will vote differently depending on who they think will best serve a particular interest of theirs. In this case, an interest in open borders.

Rubystars

03-02-2007, 01:42 PM

I can't believe that you don't want to do something about the influx of Arab immigrants in your country Rap. Haven't you already seen what their being there and being so insulated from the rest of your society has led to? Do you want more bus bombings? They were part of that insular culture even if they were 'citizens' and not properly part of your culture. They did not assimilate.

When illegal immigrants have 3 or more children here in the USA, they don't have high infant mortality. Furthemore, because children are expensive, they often rely on social programs to help them pay for those children. WIC doesn't require that you're a citizen, for example.

Here's some numbers for you:

http://www7.nationalacademies.org/cpop/ADemographicDividend.pdf.

"The birth rate of Hispanics is much higher than that of non-Hispanic whites. Among women between the ages of 15 and 44 in the United States, the average number of children a woman bears (the total fertility rate) is 1.8 for non-Hispanic whites (below the level needed for replacement of the population) and 2.8 for Hispanic women (well above replacement level). Among the various national origin groups, Mexican women had the highest fertility, with a rate of 3.3 in 2000, while Cuban women had only 1.9 children.Moreover, while only 5 percent of Hispanics are age 65 or older, among non-Hispanic whites the proportion of older people is three times larger: 15 percent. As a result of these significant differences in age structure and fertility, there is a huge difference in the ratio of births to deaths between these two populations. Among non-Hispanic whites there is approximately one birth for every death. Among Hispanics, the ratio is eight births for every death.These contrasting dynamics in the age structures of Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites can be seen clearly in the two population pyramids shown below (as of 2004).

The non-Hispanic white (and black) population is concentrated in the older age groups, which will expand further as aging baby boomers (the large bulge of the generation born after World War II) start reaching 65 in 2011."

Rapscallion

03-02-2007, 08:26 PM

Some are insulated, and others aren't. I'm concerned about the ones who won't accept that they will have to assimilate into the culture of this country, probably because they don't understand that some of their culture will come into mainstream society. Try the word 'kosher' - used by people all around to denote something proper. Most immigrants are decent people. The fact that they're willing to emigrate from known surroundings means either they're desperate or that they aren't that insular after all.

Shitfuckers like Abu Hamza and his ilk, who seem to think it's war with them as generals, can fuck off back to their shithole third-world countries of origin and try and claim asylum there. If they really don't like how this country is run, they can bugger off pronto. I suspect that's a clear enough point of view.

The rest? I've got no problem with them. If someone is prepared to come over and learn the language (the culture will permeate through the language), then why should I have any difficulty? The birth rate is declining amongst the 'native' population over here, and it's generally reckoned that we'd have to take in a certain number of people to pay for our growing elderly population - the increase in longevity incurs more costs. Give it a generation or so and the cultural intake who tend to have more babies won't be doing so. You're looking at the short term, I'm looking at the long term. When I'm crapping myself and drooling in a chair in a nursing home, I want enough income to feed me, and that's who's going to provide it.

I don't care if the nurse wiping drool from my chin is asian or white, as long as there's a damned fine curry in it for me. Curry, eh? Where would the UK be without it? We sell loads of couscous and hummus - traditionally from the arabian areas - so they must be doing something right. Mmmm - falafels...

We've got a guy at work. Let's call him F. He's on a work permit and seeking permanent residency. To look at him, you'd think he was from arabian descent - a touch darker than the average arab. Decent chap, as you might have expected me to say. He's doing a commendable job of learning the language, and some of us have been learning the occasional word of Portugese from him. He's actualy from Colombia, and he was part of a volunteer group of people along the lines of Unicef or something like that.

Aye, he was hounded out because the drug cartels took exception to his activities, and they weren't too tolerant of the fact that he has a boyfriend. Someone like him? Even though he's not going to produce descendants to be taxed to keep me in my dotage, I've got no problems.

I've got to ask - what is the problem with immigrants coming in? Sure, there are some who simply won't learn the majority language of the country, but until there is a legal official language, there is going to be no real reason for them to do that. Most of Canada has two official languages, so I rather think that if the US did declare that it had an official tongue, it would have two. Give it a couple of decades and things will even out.

Rapscallion

Rubystars

03-02-2007, 10:03 PM

I don't have a problem with (legal) immigrants themselves, and even though I know I might make it sound like it, it's not a racial thing either. Many of the people I work with, both employees and customers, are Hispanic, and most of them seem to be fine.

My problem is the people like the sucky customers I mentioned. There are more of them in Houston than you may think. When they have mass protests in the middle of the city, they often wave Mexican flags. It's a movement that is often called Reconquista, or in English, reconquest, because the ones who behave like that want to have the Southwest (including my state) back as territories under their control and culture.

That's why discussing this under the board 'Clash of Cultures' is so appropriate. If someone from Mexico or another country wants to come here in a legal manner, learn the language, try to fit in, wait until they're legally allowed to, to vote in elections, etc. then I have no problem with them. It's the millions who have come here illegally that really get under my skin, and the ones who refuse assimilation among them that are the worst of all. The ones who are legal residents are not generally fond of the illegals, they resent the fact that they went through the proper channels and so many others just got here without all the red tape!

As for giving it 'a couple of decades', this has been going on much longer than a couple of decades. Operation Wetback was conducted by the government in the 1950s to fight the problem that was growing even then. When I was a child in the 1980s, there were a lot of Spanish speakers, and areas of town that were mostly made up of Hispanics, but most of the time, when you went into major stores, everybody spoke English and you didn't have any trouble communicating.

Now I've basically given up on getting any information in the produce section, for example, because stores often hire people who have very limited English skills for positions in that department. I had a cashier at a major Texas grocery chain ask me how many of a fruit were in a bag, and I said eight. He got a pained look on his face and said "Is that ocho?" What is he doing working with the public if he can't even count to ten? It's gotten so obvious now that it's a problem, that's why the debate is coming to a head, and why I'm so angry with Bush for wanting to completely flood us with more who will not assimilate via a guest worker program.

Rapscallion

03-03-2007, 07:33 PM

Shrug - the majority are fine, as you say. If they want to wave the flag of another nation, they can bugger off back there pronto.

Rapscallion

squall

03-04-2007, 02:49 PM

I don't really ever hear of the legal immigrants standing against the illegals in my area. Maybe they want their families to come over, I'm not sure. One legal resident I worked with even asked me(a native Texan white guy) if I was going to the huge protest downtown. My response "What the hell for?" My thought was why does he care about the rights of illegals if he is already a citizen?

The things is illegals are against tighter border restrictions and the border wall...but as non-citizens, I really don't see the point in giving them a voice in the first place. Any petitions they sign on our soil shouldn't be legally binding because they are trespassing here. I don't really agree with making them automatic felons for being here though. On the one hand I admire the will to seek a better life, but the letter of the law states they can't be here and they are a burden on our economy.

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 11:26 AM

It's true that a lot of 'legals' are here because they were orginally 'anchor babies' and therefore were raised to not do anything to make 'mama and poppy' go away, and some 'legals' use their status to help cover for illegal family members or are at least sympathetic to them.

I think if you don't live here in this region it's hard to understand how devastating it can be to see a first world city's demographics change so much when overrun by third world immigrants, whether legal or illegal. Especially when said immigrants often refuse to learn the language or adopt the local culture and in some cases openly advocate the concepts of Reconquista.

I wish I could find it now, I'll have to do a search, but I saw a video a while back of a protest in California where angry illegal immigrants were shouting things like "Anglos go back to England!"

I'll be looking for examples like this to post here to show people that there really is a struggle here for cultural dominance, that should never have been allowed to happen if the borders had been secure and the laws enforced.

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 11:36 AM

This is very eye-opening and shows how alive the reconquista movement is, and it's only a few minutes long, but it shows that Reconquista is not a fringe element of illegal alien thinking either:

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/05/03/reconquista-101/

Here's another excellent expose of how they really feel and really are:
http://www.wehategringos.com/index2.shtml

The video on the latter web site shows them praising Zarqawi for "Killing Gringos" and making other such inflammatory statements.

squall

03-05-2007, 11:53 AM

I still think that these groups are a fringe. This message of reconquista is completely new to me, as many legals and illegal that live around me, you would think I would have heard of it before. I highly doubt that the majority of Latinos here feel that way. White people and black people also have their psycho fringe groups.

I just loved this quote"It is you who will be deported"(spoken to the anglos).....well not if the US government has anything to say about it! Ha!

There's probably more KKK, Skinheads, and Black Panthers than there are Reconquistadors, I have not seen exact numbers. KKK numbers in the 30,000 or so nationwide.

I think treating all legals and illegals like they are here for reconquest is maybe a little out of line. Kind of like how many black people think that all white people are racist, and will take any opportunity to call them out with a race card. Just my opinion though.

squall

03-05-2007, 11:58 AM

It's true that a lot of 'legals' are here because they were orginally 'anchor babies' and therefore were raised to not do anything to make 'mama and poppy' go away.
And why should they do that? I mean send them away...is that their duty as an American?

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 12:06 PM

What the first video shows was that people who were considered to be fairly mainstream were also supporting it. I've seen quite a bit of people who believe that way myself, the sucky customers I described being one example.

The reason why you may not have heard enough about it is that these kinds of things aren't reported as much. Go to any large protest they have and watch the signs they're carrying. You'll see the same thing that is in these videos.

They don't have to be militant to be supportive of this movement either, they just 'vote with their feet' and overwhelm us through numbers and breeding.

As for 'anchor babies' sending their illegal parents back to Mexico, they shouldn't have been citizens to begin with. Children of illegal immigrants should NOT become citizens. However, it is the duty of every American to respect the law. The main problem is that the law is not being enforced and is being blatantly disregarded.

Rapscallion

03-05-2007, 12:08 PM

squall

03-05-2007, 12:15 PM

I'm sure if I go to a KKK rally, they will be carrying signs with anti-racial slogans. Go where they are, and I will see them, yep. As for breeding....having children is a big conspiracy to take over the country? Well I'll be damned.... So that makes them reconquistadors?

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 12:27 PM

Burden on the economy?

Heh. Some unscrupulous companies get them to work at a cheap rate, thereby being able to afford to charge you less for their services/products. True, they don't pay tax, but then they also have to try and produce documentation when needing anything like welfare or health insurance. They're not going to get very far like that - as far as I understand it, most suffer in silence.

Rapscallion

We end up paying more than what they contribute to us.

Since many don't have insurance, they end up in emergency rooms when they need medical care, and they don't pay their own medical bills. This falls on the taxpayer. They also can get social assistance programs like WIC that are a direct drain on the taxpayer every time they have another baby. Because they come from the third world, they bring third world disease and sanitation practices with them. Tuberculosis is one of the diseases that is on the rise again thanks to them having no medical screening before entering the country.

More diseases they bring with them are listed here:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Cosman/madeleine3.htm

The treatments for theses diseases again fall on the taxpayers and on ordinary Americans who may or may not have insurance when they catch the contagious diseases. Our insurance rates often go up because this drives up the cost of medicine in general.

Much of the money they do make is directly drained out of the economy and sent back to poor relatives in Mexico or another country of origin. If paid to an American worker, this money would have been back in our economy, being spent or invested here.

I believe I already mentioned the identity theft epidemic which ties directly back to this flood of illegals needing a valid Social Security number. That in itself has gigantic costs.

squall

03-05-2007, 12:28 PM

Also, rubystars, you mentioned this twice; the way you say it makes me think that the legal children should send their parents back to Mexico, assuming they are old enough of course. So do you think they should? I'm interested the answer.

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 12:29 PM

If an American citizen has any respect for the laws of this country, they will want those that are not here legally to be deported, so yes, 'anchor babies' should send their parents back home. I realize that this is unrealistic, therefore, that's one reason that I don't think they should be allowed to become citizens in the first place.

And I wasn't telling you to go to radical protests, I was telling you to go to ANY large protest of illegals demanding rights. Just because the news cameras usually don't focus on those signs doesn't mean they're not there. It would be interesting for you to go to one of those protests then see how it's covered by the mainstream news outlets and note the differences.

squall

03-05-2007, 12:30 PM

So if my dad is a lifelong marijuana smoker.....should I send him to the authorities? He may or may not be, just saying.

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 12:39 PM

I think that he should stop breaking the law until marijuana is legalized and that you should encourage him to do so.

squall

03-05-2007, 12:46 PM

Exactly why I don't think they have the duty to send them back. We are not legally binded to do so. We are not complicit as their offspring.

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 01:07 PM

I think it's a big problem that so many so-called citizens have more loyalty to foreign nationals than they do to this country. That's my main concern with it.

Whether your dad smokes pot or not has no bearing on national security. Immigration laws very much do.

squall

03-05-2007, 01:17 PM

Ever heard of the saying "loyalty to God, then to family, then to whatever else?" Personally, I would be offended if they sold out their parents because of the laws of the land. Not realistic in any fashion anyway, so I'll drop the point.

Rubystars

03-05-2007, 02:46 PM

My only point in bringing that up is how they're using their children to get a firmer foothold here. First to have an "American Citizen" baby and then child which makes it harder to deport them, and as the child grows into an adult, a politically active ally.

I don't expect people to vote against their parents. What frustrates me is that these people are granted citizenship as babies even though their loyalty is going to be more to the illegal foreign nationals.

DesignFox

03-05-2007, 10:21 PM

The reason the illegals don't get deported or thrown in jail- just not enough jail space or funding. My dad tows for the police- these illegal types drive around, get pulled over for something, turn out to be illegal (no valid ID, green card or driver's license, no registration in car, no valid license plates), and just walk away...laughing. They GET AWAY WITH IT. ALL THE TIME. The government needs to do SOMETHING about it or it will never be remedied- for that to happen, more citizens...LEGAL ONES...need to take a stand and voice their concern. Since that isn't happening, the problem persists.

This makes my brain hurt... humanity is going to blow itself up in the next 100 years..... (and that's a generous estimate).

Rubystars

03-06-2007, 01:28 AM

Fox, they've tried to remedy that in some places by setting up tent city jails, but the bleeding heart leftists decry the adequate conditions as inhumane.

A lot of illegals do get away with crimes like driving without a license, etc. However there ARE a lot of violent offenders in jails that are illegal aliens.
Many of them are sex offenders due to the fact that the culture is different in Mexico and girls are considered women at a younger age in Mexican culture than they are in American culture. Grown Mexican men were whistling at my friend and I when we were 11 or 12 years old. There is also a lot of Hispanic gang violence, from groups like the Latin Kings and Crazy Crew.

It's one major reason (along with people in jail for soft drug use) that the prisons are overcrowded. No wonder they can barely fit any more in there.

Deport illegal alien criminals to a Mexican prison, decriminalize soft drugs (at least), and the prisons will be more open for scumbags like our own home grown child sex offenders, who often live free after a tragically short stay in prison.

squall

03-06-2007, 01:41 AM

And I wasn't telling you to go to radical protests, I was telling you to go to ANY large protest of illegals demanding rights. Just because the news cameras usually don't focus on those signs doesn't mean they're not there. It would be interesting for you to go to one of those protests then see how it's covered by the mainstream news outlets and note the differences.

I believe that any time you get huge gatherings together of any specific race, whether it is a white gathering, black, latino, middle-eastern muslim, together it usually steers to an "us against them" mentality. The mobs tend to take on a life of their own and the hateful feelings come out because of their strength in numbers. Things like "white devil", "Go back to Africa", "Death to Infidels". Basically it's not unique to Latinos, so I don't think it is any indication of a majority movement.

Rubystars

03-06-2007, 03:20 AM

I may not be able to convince you that it's not a fringe idea no matter how many examples or videos I show you or how many 'mainstream' names I drop. However, what I will tell you is that to be a part of that movement, all they have to do is keep flooding over the border and reproducing and refusing to integrate, numerically overwhelming Americans until their culture is the dominant one in the Southwest. In their daily lives, they don't have to do anything particularly militant in order to support this movement. It's already beginning to be the dominant culture in some areas. What will it be like in 20 or 30 years? What if the birth rates don't even out? What if a guest worker program sends millions more over (including the families of the 'guest workers') who will overstay their work visa and simply disappear into the crowd? Reconquista is happening before our eyes and the only way to stop it is a two pronged approach of true improvement in border security and a streamlined way of enforcing the law and deporting the illegals already here. It would also help immensely if the children of illegal aliens were not automatically given citizenship, because it would not give the rights of citizens to people who would be more loyal to a foreign country than to their supposed own country.

squall

03-06-2007, 01:13 PM

Highly disagree!!! I would venture to say most are not silent supporters of some reconquista movement. The idea sounds racist. You are lumping all of the illegal aliens, and even legal immigrants into the category of an extremist group. To cast them all with suspicion, even legal immigrants, is racist. Unless they have waved the Mexican flag in front of me and held banners confirming their beliefs, I will not automatically think that they are supporters of taking the land back for Mexico. They come here to live a better life, not necessarily to retake what was once their ancestors land. I doubt any who are sane believe that Texas still belongs to Mexico. I'm sure many fully intend to integrate US culture, but do not be shocked if they bring a little culture back with them. I saw ONE mainstream politician in all of those videos.....that's not alot of mainstream people. I am not a silent supporter of any pro-white movement just because I'm white.

Being born in the United States and becoming a citizen was one of the founding principles of this country. It meant freedom from the oppression and tyranny of a foreign power, or any who falsely proclaim sovereignty over our soil (then the United Kingdom). Perhaps a little outdated...but founding principle all the same. People will probably take advantage of that, maybe not always consciously. Many illegals don't know enough about our laws in the first place and are not politically active. Yes they borrow identities, but probably not extremely widespread. Look up "reconquista" in the context of retaking the southwest on Wikipedia and you will see how little information there is on it. I've not heard much about it, neither have many Americans.

I believe with all due respect that your numbers of this movement are inflated.

We must treat all illegals the same, whether they be English speakers or non-english speakers non-citizens(Canadians, Chinese, Ukrainians, Mexicans, Cubans, Vietnamese, whatever). So much emphasis has been placed on the country south of us. What about our northern borders? It would be contradictary, and I venture to say racist, to beef up security only on the Southern border. The immediate problems of having a third world country next to us are the most obvious of course.

I treat all people with respect. I do not cast suspicion on somebody with different color skin. I don't think things like "they must be illegal, or harbor and illegal" or "they must live in the hood" or "they must be terrorists". In the end, we all bleed red. We are all on this boat called Earth together, and we all should just start getting along.

But to agree with you, yes illegals need to be sought out and deported by the authorities, but it is not our civic responsibility to do it as civilians. Border patrol needs to be tougher. Guest visas need to be investigated. The state governments need to be more pro-active in stopping illegals, possibly even build a fence if they think it is cheaper (I think it's way too expensive and unrealistic having driven the length of the Southwest). But to say I have no respect for other cultures, that is not the case. I am conservative, but not the over-inflated sense of ego southern Baptist type.

DesignFox

03-06-2007, 04:08 PM

I think the point rubystars is trying to make (and I agree) is that she has no problem with people who have come to America legally, have adopted our culture and our main (if not official) language- English.

Her problem, I think, is with people who cross the border illegally, and then try to lay claim to rights they don't deserve- because they don't LEGALLY belong here. (again, I agree)

The main beef is that these ILLEGALS are stirring up rallies, and trying to bring THEIR culture, exclusively, into OUR country. If you want to live, eat, sleep, breathe your country's culture- then you should bloody well stay there. Don't come over here, bitch whine and moan, and try to start a fight- especially if you aren't a LEGAL CITIZEN in the first place.

Chances are, if you are a LEGAL citizen- and you became one not because your greedy parents let you drop out the vagina over here- but because you moved here -LEGALLY- and applied through channels to gain citizenship- you are likely going to be loyal to this country. Afterall, you gave up EVERYTHING to be here. THOSE people I have no problem with, and even welcome with open arms.

As for illegals- in my opinion- as soon as they are caught, they need to be deported. Period. I believe that is the issue here- although it all started over whether or not our official language should be English...which, since our schools teach English, all business is conducted in English, and our government is run in English...you get the point.

squall

03-06-2007, 04:46 PM

I truly agree with every point you just mentioned, DesignFox. The only problem I have in regards to the earlier argument is stereotyping a race into being a violent, invasive group typical only to a fringe extremist group. Like calling all Muslims terrorists, or all Hispanics reconquistadors. To project the faults of a view bad apples onto an entire race and by saying breeding is a form of rebellion and punishment to us.

I'm not trying to disagree with everyone, but when prejudices come out, I take aim.

Rubystars

03-06-2007, 06:04 PM

Design Fox puts it better than I can. I know that some of my posts can come off sounding harsher than I mean them to and that can sometimes distract from the points I'm trying to make.

I don't have a problem with Mexicans or their culture per se. It's that I think that American culture should predominate here and that immigrants should be legal and not come in such massive numbers at once that it makes it impossible for them to really assimilate.

All immigrant cultures will contribute some things from their culture into ours as they assimilate, and that's not a bad thing. A lot of American kids have pinatas at their birthday parties now, for example. Many Spanish words have even become commonly used among English speakers to each other, and that's ok too. That's quite a different story from the massive invasion that's occurring right now, many with a push toward their culture shoving American culture out of the way rather than blending with it and adopting as their new native language: English.

Barefootgirl

03-06-2007, 06:57 PM

Are there any hard numbers on how many people belong to these reconqistador movements? Any suggestions of total active turn-out at rallies, etc? Cos it reminds me a bit of when the WTC was attacked, and all the news stations showed that footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets, celebrating and burning American flags, and we all watched appalled...until afterseeing EXACTLY the same piece of footage every day for a week, someone (probably John Pilger) went and investigated it and found out that this was the only protest of its type that ANY film crews had been able to find. There wasn't a great mass of celebrating palestinians, just about twenty in a back street. Lots of scaremongering that there is an evil sea of aliens jsut waiting to over-run us and give us their filthy diseases...

Incidentally, I didn't see much medical or intellectual rigour in that Madeleine Cosman article that suggested that filthy illegal immigrants are spreading disease across the USA. No mention of the increase on foreign travel, no mention of the increase in LEGAL immigration, no mention of the fact that many Americans cannot affrod proper medical treatment, so travel to these places without gettign the proper jabs and re-infect their peers on their return, no mention of the fact that yes, some of the re-introduction of these diseases IS vectored by immigrants - but not every immigrant a) has the Black Death and b)is an illegal.

Rubystars

03-07-2007, 03:33 AM

These diseases do come in through other means, however the reason that illegal immigration is such a point of concern on that subject is the massive volume of people who come in. Millions, with no medical screening upon entering the country.

Legal immigrants are much less likely to be a problem because 1. They may actually have to be screened for some things and 2. There are much fewer of them in total.

There have been protests like that throughout the southwest U.S., promoting the rebirth of the Southwest as Aztlan, supporting Reconquista, etc. One of the video clips shows Mexicans chanting "Our Land! Our Continent! We're taking it back!" Michelle Malkin in her clip quite eloquently destroyed the logic behind such cries by explaining the history. There are a lot of people behind the movement, and some of the groups involved are getting federal funding, sadly enough.

powerboy

08-20-2007, 11:08 PM

Greenday

08-21-2007, 01:42 AM

The way as I think about it is this. If I visit any other country, then I would have to learn to speak the language; well enough to get by. So why not, the same for the people that come here from other countries?

Exactly! English is the main language of America, whether it is officially recognized or not. To have people come here, try to live here, and never even bother TRY to learn English is total crap.

CancelMyService

08-21-2007, 03:56 AM

When the first settlers came to America, did they adopt the Native languages and culture? No.

Funny how that works when the shoe's on the other foot.

The thing about language debates it that there's always an undercurrent of "my language and culture is superior and you need to abandon yours and adopt ours to be accepted" that just seems kind of wrong to me.

Greenday

08-21-2007, 05:50 AM

Of course they didn't bother to learn any of the Native American's languages. For one thing, there was no language of the Native American's. There were a ton of different languages/dialects. Every single different group had a different dialect if not entire language. You can't compare that to today's society. The majority of people in America speak English. According to the 2000 census, 82.1% of Americans spoke English. Next comes Spanish with 10.7%. I'm sure those numbers have changes in the past 7 years, but there's no way in hell Spanish has surpassed English. Since the majority of Americans speak the same language, there is valid reason to make English the national language.

CancelMyService

08-21-2007, 06:05 AM

Greenday

08-21-2007, 03:47 PM

It doesn't matter where you go, something, despite the many variations, all have at least one meaning that people understand. For example, some places call it pop, some places call it coke, many others call it soda. No matter where you go, you say soda, and they will know what you are talking about. Faucet and tap are the same deal. The only times I can't understand someone is because of their accent and I can't even make out the word they are saying.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that some people speak Spanish. I just thinks it's totally rude to permanently move to another country and not bother to learn their main language.

CancelMyService

08-23-2007, 08:24 AM

Why is it so horrible for there to be another language spoken? People speaking Spanish in areas where Spanish-speaking people have been for generations is not going to mean little Mary Sue in Boston is going to be forced to stop speaking English.

Most other countries in the world have several languages spoken, some even have more than one official language, and it hasn't caused problems anywhere else I can recall.

Most countries in the Middle East understand English despite the main language being Arabic. Most countries in Europe have at least a basic understanding of English, French, Spanish, or German.

Maybe its just me, but people who freak out over another language being spoken always strike me as a bit xenophobic.

Greenday

08-23-2007, 03:46 PM

Boozy

08-23-2007, 08:14 PM

Here in Canada, when Trudeau was Prime Minister, his government made English and French our two official languages. Our federal government must now offer all services in both languages. This makes it difficult for English-only speakers to get a job with the federal government. So of course a lot of people got pissed off.

But I say, what's the big deal? Our schools offer French courses from grade 1 to grade 12. Many in an immersion environment. And if you haven't picked up enough French by the time you've graduated, the government offers FREE intensive French courses for those who want to become bilingual. Same thing for French speakers who'd like to learn English.

Additionally, to be hired for very important positions in the government, like agencies that require extensive scientific qualifications, you only have to speak one of these languages, not both.

I have to agree with what CancelMyService said. It seems somewhat xenophobic to get that worked up about an issue that boils down to a simple communication problem.

America put a man on the moon, for god's sake! Certainly something as minor as language barriers aren't beyond you to work out.

Nightwolf

08-25-2007, 06:09 AM

I agree with a lot of what i've seen here. I think English "should" be the official language. Of course people can choose other languages to speak, but the primary one to communicate with everyone should be english.

I know a lot of people that came here from other countries, and they are making great attempts to learn our language to communicate with us. They still speak their native language and thats great. I even attempt to learn some of it because I respect that they've done sometime i might not have done. (moved a very long distance, away from everything they've ever known, to come here and try and fit in.) I love learning about places I may never see, and if I can make them feel good by trying to learn some of their language, maybe it will show some people that we're not all as ignorrant and stuck up as we may be percieved to be. Now, maybe it doesn't make them feel good to do this and I just don't know, but whenever I'd converse with them, they seemed to whole heartedly enjoy teaching us about their cultures and languages.

Anways....sorry for veering so far off the path there, to the point about the Native Americans being here first and we didn't adopt their language and forced ours. I agree that what we did was wrong. And we were very arrogant in making them learn our language and thinking that it was vastly superior. However, whats done is done, and changing anything now would be a fiasco. It's already bad enough that in order to get certain jobs in the United States you have to speak Spanish as a second language. That is absolutely killing a lot of my job prospects in HR and it really really irritates me. If I was going to another country, there is no way in hell I would expect them to tailor their language to suit me. I expect this: I will learn the language of the country I am going to call home or I expect that nobody needs to lift a finger to help my lazy ignorrant ass. :D

CancelMyService

08-25-2007, 06:36 PM

If you went to another country, they wouldn't need to tailor their language to suit you since most countries have a basic understanding of English in a buisness setting. Mostly every other country on the planet (including that frosty one right above us) are either offically or unoffically multilingual.

Also, I'm not suggesting we should adapt Native American culture and language now because of what was done in the past, I was just pointing out that now the shoe's on the other foot and it's another example of the American and/or English-speaking superiority complex that tends to pop out at the oddest times.

Skandranon

09-16-2007, 05:01 PM

I think the problem will resolve itself in time, because English is quickly becoming not the national language, but the international language. The U.S.'s economic power influences people all over the world to learn English in order to do better business. I've done a little travelling, and whether I was in France, Costa Rica, or Singapore, I could easily find natives who could speak English. And now the internet and its many English sites are pushing it further. Give it a few hundred years, and I'm putting my money on the entire world having an official language.

But I find it a little humorous that so many places are trying to learn the language of the U.S., and we don't even know what our own language is.

linguist

09-18-2007, 05:04 PM

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I'm not saying other languages SHOULDN'T be spoken. I'm just saying that English should be the official language of the US and that's it for now. There's no reason why any other language SHOULD be an official language of the US.

but here's where you fall into slippery constitutional law.

amendment x of the bill of rights states "the powers not delegated to the united states by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." a number of states have declared official languages, or have legally recognized de facto official languages, and not all of these are english. hawaii, for example, has constitutionally recognized hawaiian as co-official with english. louisiana legally recognizes both french and english as de facto official languages, and new mexico does the same with spanish and english per the provisions of the 1848 treaty of guadalupe hidalgo. not to mention unincorporated territories, which enjoy some constitutional protection and have their own native languages such as guam (chamorro), the northern mariana islands (chamorro and carolinian), american samoa (samoan), or puerto rico (spanish). also, many reservations have declared tribal languages as official within the confines of the tribes' sovereign territories.

to declare english only as the federally recognized official language of the united states would trump all these other states and territories, which would in effect violate the 10th amendment (and be a treaty violation in the case of new mexico).

Greenday

09-18-2007, 10:24 PM

Boozy

09-18-2007, 10:38 PM

That's total garbage. So a few states have made exceptions because a lot of people speak a different language in those states.

These are not "exceptions". These states are honouring long standing political and constitutional agreements with their native residents, especially New Mexico.

Linguist is right - a national language would pose a constitutional nightmare in a country known for its strict adherence to state rights.

linguist

09-18-2007, 11:35 PM

That's total garbage. So a few states have made exceptions because a lot of people speak a different language in those states. Good for them. The fact is, Spanish, the second most spoken language in America, doesn't even come close to being a language spoken by a majority. 4/5 of the country's population have English as their primary language. 4/5! That's overwhelming numbers! How can you compare 80% to 10%? As far as statistics go, the difference is positively laughable! 10% cannot possibly be considered a majority.

actually, not many people in hawaii speak hawaiian, though thankfully that is changing. the hawaiian government declared hawaiian as a co-official language in an effort to save an ancestral language that was dying largely due to the imposition of english as a sole official language. now that it's given more official recognition people are beginning to learn and use it in everyday life once more. the government has even set up immersion schools for children so that it can be passed on to future generations.

never in my post did i say that 10% could or should be considered a majority. in fact, those "statistics" (quoted because i don't trust random numbers without citations) had nothing whatsoever to do with what i posted. what i said was that the constitution does not give the federal govenrment the power to declare an official language, nor does it prohibit the states from doing so. under the provisions of the 10th amendment this explicitly gives states the right to choose their own official language(s). many have done so. in some cases english is not the only language chosen. this is fact, both historical and legal. the treaty of guadalupe hidalgo is fact, both historical and legal. to declare an official language at the federal level and impose it on every state and territory that enjoys constitutional protection would be a violation of both the treaty and the amendment. nowhere did i make any mention of the numbers of speakers of any language.

and somewhat off topic, i was under the impression that this board was for respectful debate. disagree all you'd like, that's your right, but calling my assertions "total garbage" is hardly respectful, is it?

Greenday

09-19-2007, 03:51 AM

My apologies. This week is extremely stressful for me as I have two different Chem tests, a Physics test, and three different labs to prepare for. That and I just found out earlier today my grandfather is in the hospital again. Hooray Murphy's Law.

State Laws and Federal Laws aren't always the same. The states can have their own languages, but as English is the most spoken language in America, that gives it validation for being a main language. Spanish is the main language of much smaller areas. Nearly everywhere in the US, people speak English. Venture towards the northern border and Spanish is rarely heard.

As for my statistics, some people may be unethical in their data, but I don't fudge data. I prefer wrong answers over BS answers. For something like this, CIA World Factbook is amazingly reliable to find info on this stuff.

AFPheonix

09-19-2007, 10:17 PM

Spanish is the main language of much smaller areas. Nearly everywhere in the US, people speak English. Venture towards the northern border and Spanish is rarely heard.

On your coast, perhaps. Come up the I-5 corridor and then see how often you hear and read Spanish.

Greenday

09-19-2007, 11:23 PM

One of the towns right next to the one I live in at home, there are plenty of Spanish speakers. There are still a lot more that speak English. I move two hours away, and all of last year and this year so far, I haven't heard one person speak Spanish.

AFPheonix

09-20-2007, 03:07 AM

There's a reason why we call Hillsboro "Hillsburrito" these days ;)

(yes, completely tasteless joke, but in a lot of places in town, there's more spanish signage than engish)

ShockQueen

10-22-2007, 02:28 AM

I guess there is a silver lining to being this far north of the border AND away from the coast. When I was in Denver and California, I was SO sick and tired of people asking me if I spoke Spanish in Spanish and then look digusted when I couldn't understand them, and then demand a manager in clear ENGLISH!

I suppose technically, Engilsh isn't our native language. We speak AMERICAN or AMERICAN ENGLISH. Imagine if we adopted QUEEN'S ENGLISH as an official language. What a bottled-up mess that might be, but that's just my weird humour.

The point is.......as has been said from many a source, is we really should have an "official" language. I don't care about the fact that we're the "melting pot" anymore (I think that pot's full folks), that ideal has pretty much been overrun with "hey....an easy country to get into - let's GO!" Our border security is weaker than just about any other nation's, and we're just a bunch of pushovers led by lobbyists who keep touting the flag of "Who's gonna do the work that the illegals are doing now if we get rid of them?" It's like those panhandlers who look physically fit enough to work, but don't.

I was shown a t-shirt once that says "Press 1 for English - Press 2 to move out until you learn English". Tasteless I know, but........it does get the point across.

And for goodness sakes people.....if you're going to have foreign language as a requirement in high schools, please offer MORE THAN ONE FREAKIN CHOICE!!!!!

NightAngel

10-22-2007, 08:08 AM

I'm in an area where I hear Spanish as often as English and it really doesn't bother me one way or another.

As for schools I can tell you my oldest son is learning German. Cool, right?
I asked him, "Son, when are you ever going to need to know German? Why aren't you learning Spanish?" He had absolutely zero idea when he was ever going to need to know German but, "Mom, I'm REALLY GOOD at German!"
Yes, I'm proud of him. :D

His father speaks French fluently. Other than the couple of months he spent on foreign exchange in France 20-ish years ago guess how often he's needed to know French?
If you answered "never" you win a cookie. :)

CancelMyService

10-22-2007, 08:31 AM

What's funny is if you go toward the northern border in New England, you won't hear Spanish but you'll probably hear French instead.

The whole "move out until you learn English" argument is completely hilarious when you consider the areas where Spanish is spoken the most (Texas, Southern CA, Florida) were provinces of Spain or Mexico before they were ever part of the US. It's not like the people there decided to start speaking a different language just to be difficult,

Boozy

10-22-2007, 12:03 PM

...the areas where Spanish is spoken the most (Texas, Southern CA, Florida) were provinces of Spain or Mexico before they were ever part of the US...

People should have the good manners to completely abandon their culture and language entirely after their lands have been purchased and/or invaded by the United States.

;)

TennesseeWhiskey

11-11-2007, 04:58 PM

Which version of English should be the national standard? You might think I'm being glib, and I kinda am, but you travel around the US and tell me there isn't a sometimes substantial difference.

I don't mean accents either, there's entirely different words for things depending on which part of the US you happen to be in at the moment.

Should it be Southern US English? Midwestern English? Hell, even here in Pittsburgh we have our own "Pittsburghese" which can be almost as baffling to newcomers as a totally foreign language.

I don't see what's so bad about Spanish being a secondary language in areas with a significant Hispanic population. It's like the parts of Maine that are predominantly French speaking because of their proximity to Quebec. I wonder why that's never the source of outrage like Spanish is............

Why, Southern should be the standard, of course, honey! Especially since our English is the closest to the Queen's English! :D

If Spanish is a SECONDARY language in areas with a significant amount of Spanish speakers, fine. However, I don't see why we English speakers should bend over backwards to learn Spanish. We never asked them to come here, and, if the situation were reversed, we emigrated to a Spanish speaking country, and expected them to put up signs in English and for them to learn English for us, they'd laugh their asses off.

NightAngel

11-15-2007, 07:20 AM

Okay, since as far as I know the ONLY group of people who have been able to come up a universal language of any kind is deaf people- I vote for International Sign Language to be the "official" language.

Everyone can continue to speak their own language outloud amoungst themselves but when you encounter someone who doesn't speak your language then everyone can revert to sign.

Problem solved. Have a nice day.

BroomJockey

11-15-2007, 04:47 PM

Actually, that's not true. There's ASL (American Sign Language), and a few other forms. I'm fairly certain the individual letter signs are internationally recognized, and some simple words, but with a list of sign-languages like this, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sign_languages) I doubt that much is common.

NightAngel

11-15-2007, 05:59 PM

International Sign Language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sign)
Also known as Gestuno but most commonly refered to as ISL.

Granted- it's more of an agreed on set of characters than a whole language but at least they were able to agree on that and use it effectively!

I've kind of been looking into learning sign language because I have so many deaf people who shop at my store. I'm hoping that it'll be the one language I can actually learn.

BroomJockey

11-15-2007, 07:28 PM

Hey, that looks fairly interesting. I've toyed with learning sign language, as well as other langagues, but with that list of sign languages I posted, didn't think it would be useful, and saying anything with the individual character signs would take forever. Are they expanding it, or is it the same since it was created? If they're increasing it, even if slowly, that would be a huge thing. :)
Just goes to show, regional differences don't have to be a barrier.

NightAngel

11-16-2007, 08:13 AM

I can't really answer those questions as I'm just starting researching this stuff myself.

I think it's pretty cool though- one language for all people without trading in your own. :D

rahmota

11-17-2007, 12:11 AM

I'll vote appalachian english. We've actually got vowels and consonants unlike southern that just has vowels...;) (Just kidding. I love the south.)

As for Sign language the only sign language I know is either military or driving related and usually only takes one or two fingers.....

As for invented languages whatever happened to Esperanto? I read about it in college and it was used heavily as a joke in Red Dwarf. Is there still any one using it any major thign going on with it in the real world?

Also speaking of military the international language for airline and military pilots is english so there is precedent for that.

Greenday

11-17-2007, 12:27 AM

Yea, I only know how to curse people out in sign language and also how to say "Your mom." Thank you Maxim Magazine.

Maybe everyone should just go back to Latin.

Seshat

11-17-2007, 10:16 AM

I think it's pretty cool though- one language for all people without trading in your own. :D

Problem: blind people.

Just thought I (and my blind friend, and my severely vision impaired friend) would throw a spanner in the works. :D

NightAngel

11-21-2007, 06:05 AM

Maybe everyone should just go back to Latin.

Latine loqui coactus sum.

DesignFox

11-25-2007, 07:52 PM

Problem: blind people.

Just thought I (and my blind friend, and my severely vision impaired friend) would throw a spanner in the works. :D

Not necessarily... maybe, like Helen Keller, the blind can be taught to "feel" the signs....

Would make for quite a touchy feely conversation...but it could work. :D

protege

11-28-2007, 07:40 PM

Would make for quite a touchy feely conversation...but it could work. :D

You bastard...I nearly sprayed my monitor :D

BTW, did you know that Helen Keller's favorite color is Chuck Norris?

AFPheonix

11-29-2007, 01:15 AM

Chuck Norris endorsed Mike Huckabee. Actually, so did Rick Flair.
I guess he's going for the 18-25 male demographic or something.

daleduke17

12-06-2007, 09:06 AM

"Ric" Flair. ;)

My opinion for an official language should be that the USA make an official language so they can be justified in making all govermental paperwork in one language. I honestly don't care if, while walking through Polish Triangle in Chicago, if the whole area is speaking Polish. When the residents of Polish Triangle go into the DMV or the Federal Courthouse, they better be able to speak American-English. Same can be said for any other nationality and language that is based in the United States.

AFPheonix

12-07-2007, 06:53 PM

Heh. My bad. I pay little attention to pro wrestlers.

CancelMyService

12-09-2007, 02:40 AM

You know, it's funny, I'm about to go home from my week vacation in Orlando and I don't recall seeing one bilingual sign in any store I was in. Every store I was in did happen to have employees who were either native Spanish speakers, or learned Spanish as a second language. Florida was a Spanish colony before becoming a part of the US ater all. I also was able to watch Spanish language TV stations like Univison and Telemundo while I was there. My grasp of the language comes solely from Lucha Libre (mexican wrestling), but Mexican soap operas are a gas no matter if you understand them or not. They're everything they get parodied as on SNL.

Spending all this time in a dual language environment , from what I can best surmise, has had zero effect on my American-ness or my abilty to comminicate in English.

It's almost as if the whole issue was much ado about nothing,