suburbians vs. rancher

[Hello Kitty]

Thought I'd throw this one out. This happened several years ago. Couple and dog trespass into grazing pasture, couple lose sight of dog. Dog chases cattle, ends up shot dead. Note that the article is skewed to the side of the dog owners.

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/05.11.00/cowsvsdogs-0019.html

[daleduke17]

Thought I'd throw this one out. This happened several years ago. Couple and dog trespass into grazing pasture, couple lose sight of dog. Dog chases cattle, ends up shot dead. Note that the article is skewed to the side of the dog owners.

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/05.11.00/cowsvsdogs-0019.html

This is ridiculous. The farmer was in the right and the dog owners were in the wrong. If they really cared about their dog they wouldn't have been trespassing in the first place.

[Norton]

I'm on the side of the rancher.

Hall says he thinks the Santa Teresa dispute is a case of suburban homeowners not wanting to accept the realities of rural life.

That's exactly what it seems like to me. Some people seem to think that farms and ranches are like admission-free parks and petting zoos. Ranchers have every right to protect their livestock - by deadly force if necessary.

Anyway, how dare people move into an area, then demand that the local residents change their way of life to accomodate them? Bear should never have been on someone else's private property in the first place, and especially should not have been allowed out of the owner's sight. A simple leash would have prevented everything, but no - they're trying to restrict the rancher's right to discharge a firearm instead.

Kids go up there in the hills. Yeah, they're trespassing, but given the fact that there are a lot of homes up there, both at the top of the hill and at the bottom, it seems like a reasonable thing to have the Board of Supervisors pass a restriction on discharge of weapons in that area."

Again, why are children being allowed to trespass? Just because the area is more rural, doesn't mean it's less dangerous.

It upsets me that so few people seem to believe in personal responsibilty anymore.

[Greenday]

Ok, so they admitted to trespassing, they admitted they had no control of their dog, and they admitted the dog went after the guy's cattle. The dog was a threat to the guy's livestock. He has a right to defend his property.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Dude, I live in the WOODS. It doesn't get any more rural than where I live. And I go wandering around the woods a lot, have since I was a kid. BUT, I know where the boundaries are. I've always known where it was and was not safe to tread. And when I come to a fence, I DON'T cross it. How hard a lesson is that?

...obviously, very hard...

[Boozy]

I hate that a dog was killed because of his owner's mistake.

The rancher's livestock was not likely in immediate danger. No single dog can take down a heifer. They're huge. I suspect that the rancher's concern was that the dog would get the herd riled up and possibly start a stampede. That's fair, I suppose.

We'd get stray dogs chasing our herds every once in a while, and I'm sure that the thought of shooting and killing the dog never even crossed my dad's mind. We'd just corral the herd and/or the dog, whichever was more malleable at the time. Happened dozens of times without anyone or any animal getting hurt.

[AFPheonix]

No, but that single dog could run a heifer through a fence and potentially seriously injure her that way.

Good thing those people aren't out here in wine country where shells go off regularly to scare birds off the grapes, or live next to my target shooting neighbors or the duck hunting clubs in these parts...

If I had a dog that was going after one of our foals, I'd shoot it if I could, too. These animals are worth a lot of money.

[Zyanya]

The dog might not be able to take down a cow, but he could succeed in injuring it.

[protege]

The dog might not be able to take down a cow, but he could succeed in injuring it.

Exactly. My grandmother lived out in the country. For years, she always rented out the pasture to various neighbors...all 80 acres of it. Usually, we had about 40 or 50 cattle around...all of which were worth some serious cash. Most of the farms had beef cattle of some sort, but a few had dairies as well. If one of those cows (or sheep, as we have those too) was injured, I'm sure their owner wouldn't be too happy about their livelihood getting damaged as well. As such, many *will* shoot at trespassers.

When I was growing up, I was always told to take the "No trespassing" or "posted" signs very seriously. Many people do not take kindly to idiots on their land. As such, whenever my father and I would go tracking deer...we always made sure to get permission first.

[Zyanya]

When I was growing up, I was always told to take the "No trespassing" or "posted" signs very seriously.

I grew up in a neighborhood that had a guy who thought it was hilarious to keep vicious dogs and sic them on other people's animals.

If I am in my front yard with a gun and see a strange dog running at my animals/kids with no human accompanying it, I can't guarantee I won't shoot. Fuck, if it's off leash, I may shoot even if the human is there if the dog is actively being aggressive.

And for this purpose, I include the wild game that likes to scavenge in my yard as 'my animals'. If your dog comes into my yard to tear apart a wild rabbit, I have every reason to believe it is willing to do the same to my niece's pet rabbit when she's outside with it.

I'm a fairly good judge of animal behavior. I know the difference between a dog approaching aggressively and a puppy that slipped it's leash and thinks it has found a new friend. But for safety's sake, if you have a houdini dog that isn't fully trained yet, make sure your neighbors are familiar with the dog so they don't mistake it for a stray.

[rahmota]

The rancher's livestock was not likely in immediate danger. No single dog can take down a heifer. They're huge. I suspect that the rancher's concern was that the dog would get the herd riled up and possibly start a stampede. That's fair, I suppose.

Just to chime in late here. Like was already stated the cow doesnt have to be brought down to be injured to the point where putting it down would be more effective or humane than to let it live. As well as running an entire herd of cattle into a fenceline, a gully, a dry wash, a tree line or whatever barrier. you think the day after thanksgiving sales crush try being in front of a herd of stampeding cattle. We used to raise cattle when i was a kid and if one gets spooked enough then they all go flying off in one group. A group that if they hit a barricade will not always stop in time to avoid having the back of the herd ram into the front crushing them, pushign them into the barrier stronger. Bad stuff.

And yeah whatever happened to respecting people's boundaries? Those people where jerks and I dont blame the rancher in the slightest. In this county the law is on the farm owners side. A loose dog gets in with the livestock the sheriff encourages people to shoot it. Saves him the trouble of dealing with it.

[DesignFox]

I definitely side with the rancher on this one.

He had a sign clearly posted, and those morons ignored it. It is a true shame that the dog had to pay the price for his owners' stupidity.

I'm from suburbia. I don't know shit about rural life. But I DO know that if someone posts a sign telling you to keep out or they'll shoot- they mean it!

Furthermore, I wouldn't presume to wander into my next door neighbor's backyard here, why would the rules be different anywhere else?

It's just common courtesy not to let your dog out on someone else's property... nevermind that in this instance it was also a threat to a man's livelihood!

[flybye023]

I grew up on a farm. We didn't have livestock but at one point we did have an adult sheep that a neighbor had given us as a lamb to raise 'cause the mother had rejected it. The sheep had free range of the yard as did our 9 month old puppy (mutt, but had the look of a yellow lab) the two often played together and slept together. Imagine our dismay at arriving home from church one day to find the poor sheep standing in a bloody mess, its skin hanging it sheets and the puppy also covered in blood and still nipping at the sheep.

To those who argue that a single dog can't harm a single herd animal, bullshit. Cattle and sheep stick together. They are trained to defer to a dog. They will try to save themselves eventually, but often, not soon enough.

[LewisLegion]

As a dog owner and lover, TOTALLY on the side of the rancher here.

A LOT of people are idiots where their dogs are concerned. They think behaviors are 'cute' that are actually signs of neuroses, insecurity, and aggression. They don't want to believe their dog can hurt anything or would hurt anything. They over-humanize their pets (oh, Fluffy just wanted a new friend to play with).

What it comes down to is dogs are predators. What might start out as play quickly becomes a predatory chase/destroy instinct in most dogs when confronted with a fleeing animal acting in a fear response. My boxer cuddled with my cats and treated them like kids, but if one ran for some reason her first instinct was to chase it. Some dogs may have escalated beyond that and killed the cat if it was caught.

The rancher has hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in his animals, and a responsibility to protect those animals just as someone else has a responsibility to protect their dog or cat if it were suddenly being attacked. He doesn't know the dog. He does know the damage the dog can cause very quickly.

The owners were idiots for letting their 'child' run around loose like that and not having him leashed.

The owners were idiots for trespassing on someone else's property.

The owners are further idiots for assuming their dog couldn't hurt a fly and that the responsibility lays on anyone else's shoulders for what happened than firmly on THEIRS.

If my dog got out and got shot because she was found in some rancher's field chasing their sheep, chickens, cattle, goats, ducks, llamas, whatever, I would feel terrible but it would be no one's fault but my own.

[Nyoibo]

No single dog can take down a heifer. They're huge.

Wanna bet? I've seen it, 1 dog, hamstrings the cow then goes for the throat, 1 dead cow in under 90 seconds.

This also touches on another subject which is a major thing with me, urban encroachment, people moving to the "country" because it's the country, but then getting pissy and demanding that farmers who have been on that land for over 100 years change or stop what they're doing because it inconveniences them.

[daleduke17]

Wanna bet? I've seen it, 1 dog, hamstrings the cow then goes for the throat, 1 dead cow in under 90 seconds.

This also touches on another subject which is a major thing with me, urban encroachment, people moving to the "country" because it's the country, but then getting pissy and demanding that farmers who have been on that land for over 100 years change or stop what they're doing because it inconveniences them.

You might want to look up two songs about similar situations. They are Daddy Won't Sell the Farm and International Harvester. Can't remember the artists, but, they produce a good chuckle over urban encroachment.

[pssorens]

Having been involved in the cattle business for my entire life, I'll agree with the others. I'd also like to point out that there is a big difference between a cattle dog guiding a herd and a dog chasing cattle. Only in the movies or case of an extreme screw up are cattle moved at anything more than a serene pace. Putting a cow/steer/heifer/bull in a situation were it is running full out, in addition to the risk of injury causes stress on the cattle. Once or twice, not a big deal. However, in most of the cases I have observed the dog doing the cow chasing will comeback often. Repeat stress on cattle on this type can cause weight loss that can cause a rancher a severe price cut in the worth of his animals

[lordlundar]

To say noting of the choice boils down to shooting the dog or shooting the cow. Why? because it's about the only thing that will stop a cow on the run. Shooting the cow might stop the cow, but it won't stop the problem. Shooting the dog on the other hand will stop the cow (they will stop running if they're not being chased) and it stops the problem.

[Talon]

It's tragic that an innocent dog had to die, fallen on the sword of his owners' stupidity.

I'm an animal lover, and I've never spent any time on a ranch. I also have very little patience for stupidity. I side with the rancher. If anything he should be prosecuting the fools for trespassing on private property. Hell, the malicious side of me thinks the rancher should bill them for the wasted bullet.

[Tanasi]

I've been in this situation. Several years ago a sub-division was built adjoining my farm. My land had been a farm for over 200 years and was in continuous cultivation or pasturage.
At first the new neighbors dogs trespassed and then later harrassed my cattle. I would run the dogs off and try to find their owners to educate them to the current laws regarding pets. Some tried most didn't. I tried animal control but our county AC is a joke and unless I already had the dog caught they wouldn't even bother to come out. So after a few warnings I'd kill the dog and throw it's body in a refuse ditch. I've been taken to court and when I got my chance to talk, I presented evidence that their dog had damaged my calves (pulled the switch off their tail), I had warned them several times both in person and in writting their case was dismissed.
I've lost count of the number of metal NO Trespassing signs I've bought over the years, yet my neighbors still feel the need to just trapise around my farm. I've run some off, I've had some arrested, but my most effective tool has been ill-tempered bull.
City folk, stay in the city, you're not wanted in the country. If you have no respect for other's property then don't expect the same. I have the same sentiments regarding damnyankees.

Just as I was about to click on submit this came to mind. Currently I'm going through physical therapy to strengthen my muscles and whatnot before I have hip-replacement surgery. Now is this the result of old war wounds? Nope. Car wreak? Nope. Construction accident? Nope. Angry wife? Nope. I was trying to seperate a yappy little neighbors dog from a bull calf. The calf being young and not knowing the fiest wasn't a threat was trying to fight the dog and in the process knocked me down and stepped on me. Well guess what happened??? After I throttled the dog, I laid in mud and cow shit for several hours until my kids came home from school and rescued me. I'm still waiting on the get well card from the dogs owner, I wonder if I'll get one this time?

[pssorens]

I've found that the best defense against dogs or trespassers is a Saler ( a french Breed ) cow with her first calf. I've been run out of many a corral and pasture by them. we had a Hereford/ Saler cross named Goggles that was meaner than any bull I've ever dealt with, when she had a calf.

[tabbyblack13]

I was raised in the the Minnesota country side and I agree with the rancher. I can't blame the rancher trying to protect his cattle. Cattle is expensive and time consuming, loosing one could cause a rancher to go under.

My mom had to install the invisible fence system to keep our dogs from chasing the neighbor's cattle. This protected the dogs and the cattle.

[Akasa]

Totally on the rancher's side. Trespassing and dog off leash? Guess what, you asked for it. Its not your land. You shouldn't be there in the first place, then you let your dog out of your sight and it harasses cattle? The cattle are more valuble than your dog.

[Savannah]

I'm with pretty much everyone here. If you need further proof that the dog owners are to blame, look at what one said:
But Bear wasn't trying to hurt the cattle. He was just playing.

In my opinion, as a dog lover and future professional dog trainer, anyone who utters the phrase "he was just playing" or "he was just being friendly" deserves a smack upside the head and eight weeks of dog obedience classes. Those statements are only used by people trying to excuse their dogs' inexcusable behavior.

Furthermore, these people are morons for letting a dog off leash in an unfenced location (let alone the whole trespassing thing). The only dogs I know who are actually trustworthy off leash are competition obedience dogs (and not all of them) or working dogs.

Seeing dogs suffer for their owners' idiocy really makes me mad...

[gremcint]

You know this isn't just a country thing, you'd be expected to control your dog in the city too. In the middle of the suburbs if a dog attacked a neighbours dogs or kids then you'd be in the right to kill the animal there too.