Troop Worship

[CancelMyService]

This topic might be too hot for even Fratching, but it's something that has rattled around in my brain for a while.

It really disturbs me how members of the military are looked upon by the majority of people as infallible creatures. I mean, I respect the job military people do and all that, but just because someone's in the uniform of the army/navy/marines/air force doesn't automatically make them good people.

It bothers me whenever a story comes up about misconduct in the military and folks will get absolutely outraged that someone would DAAAAAAARE accuse a military person of doing anything even remotely bad. Why just the thought of it makes a person some kind of pinko terrorist-lovin' communist.

Sure it's not to say everyone in the military is a bad person, or even a majority for that matter, but to pretend that our fighting force is entirely made up of angels from on high fighting for god, country, mom and apple pie is fairly naive and inaccurate. Truth be told, I've run into several military people in my life who have been raging assholes even to the point where I'd be hard pressed not to automatically stereotype every person I see in the uniform of that branch. I've also had several family members who have served and have been as exemplary kind of person one could hope for.

I guess my thoughts on this could be best summed up by Randall from Clerks when he states that title does not dictate behavior. Just because someone has brass on their shirts doesn't automatically make that a person above reproach.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I agree.

I absolutely do support servicepeople who are genuinely decent people and who work hard to serve in whatever capacity they happen to be acting in. The vast majority of servicepeople - military, police, etc. - are trustworthy and honorable and behave in a generally trustworthy manner.

It's only the few scuzzbags that act out and catch attention that casts a blight on everyone, and I'm sure that the majority is no more thrilled with them than we civilians are. Their jobs are hard enough without having to take undeserved heat for their fellow uniforms' dishonorable actions.

IMO this 'worship status' is only part of a greater problem afflicting this country (States) and its current culture - there's been a noticeable rise in nationalism and anti-intellectualism within at least the past decade, which has, not surprisingly, caused more than a few worried people to make valid comparisons to 1930's Germany.

People are pissed about the war, yet God help you if you say anything negative about it, because then you're "not supporting the troops." Uh, you can't have it both ways on that one. It's been documented that anti-war protesters have been arrested, jailed, and banned outright from particular venues, not necessarily because they were violating any laws, but simply because the assministration doesn't want that particular POV being expressed openly. Might get people thinking, after all. A thinking population is potentially a rebellious one. (This is also why media doesn't cover the soldiers' caskets coming back home on TV like they used to and why death reports and the like are buried on the back pages of newspapers. Britney Spears's latest antics are front-page bolded headlines, yet the death of the 4000th serviceperson gets mentioned in a little blurb down on page 6 of the classifieds, just about)

Patriotism is one thing; it's good to have pride in your country when it's doing what is genuinely right. Nationalism is dangerous, and doesn't play out very well.

[Seshat]

Wow - I didn't know things had got THAT bad over there!

I don't have anything much to add. I respect the military, as I respect others who put their lives on the line for the good of society as a whole. I respect the discipline the majority of them develop, and the social responsibility most of them develop.

However, I also accept that they're people, and like all groups, they contain some good people, some bad people, and some middling people.

I really get confused by anyone who doesn't understand that - the last sentence, I mean. I can't see how anyone might think that any group is all good people, or all bad people, or all middling people. (other than the trivial cases like 'the group of all good people')

[ebonyknight]

Let me guess. You probably live on the West Coast.

Well, I work with the military everyday and my father was an Army lifer. Believe me, I have no rose colored glasses on when it comes to the military. In fact, I almost believe the opposite. That they are being taken advantaged of for political purposes.

They take people in when they are at their best physically, yet at their worst mentally. I have seen the vets at Walter Reed. And it is no exaggeration when TV shows and the news show the halls filled with amputees.

I go there every so often to take a friend to his appointment and I was there for a few hours. I saw a half a dozen amputees and I was no where near the wards. Yet these guys still keep their chin up and want to go back.

I am proud of them, but I feel sorry for them since they are IMO brainwashed. The President cares for them not and I can never understand why they always vote Republican, when it's the Repubs who are always cutting back their benefits. Like I said, at their wost mentally.....

Anyway......sorry rant over.

[Boozy]

IMO this 'worship status' is only part of a greater problem afflicting this country (States) and its current culture - there's been a noticeable rise in nationalism and anti-intellectualism within at least the past decade, which has, not surprisingly, caused more than a few worried people to make valid comparisons to 1930's Germany.

But you see this every time a nation ramps up to go to war. Its nothing new, and it will pass as people finally get their heads back on straight. Look at the propaganda and fear mongering in the US during WWII. Or the Cold War.

During WWII, the US government incited its people to support the war effort with hideous and racist depictions of the "Japs". I am pleased that we have reached the point where racial hate campaigns against the Iraqi people are unacceptable (at least openly).

It leaves the Bush administration in a tricky position. If you can't hate the enemy, how do you rally support?

The answer is, of course, that you don't. You silence dissent.

[Greenday]

One big problem is that it's getting harder for those in the military to re-adjust to regular, everyday civilian life. One of my friends is dating a guy in the Marines. He's been to Iraq twice and was going to go a third time but he tore a ligament in his shoulder and isn't allowed to go back. Apparently, he used to be a really great guy. Since joining the Marines, he started taking steroids, is drunk all the time, and has threatened to kill her if she breaks up with him and has even physically hurt her. I know it's not like this for everyone coming back, but it's happening to enough people that it's become a major problem. A lot of troops aren't getting the help they need when they get back and they aren't being forced to get the help they need.

Rip on the war all you want, I don't care. But I don't believe that gives people the right to rip on the troops there. A lot signed up just to make money or to pay for college. They had no reason to expect to go to war with Iraq. Hell, the reserves are being sent to Iraq. That's a lot of people that didn't join up to fight in Iraq that are there anyway. Gotta cut them some slack.

[Seshat]

Let me guess. You probably live on the West Coast.

I'm not sure who you intended to respond to, but since I was directly above your post, I'll answer.

I'm in Australia.

[Amethyst Hunter]

But you see this every time a nation ramps up to go to war. Its nothing new, and it will pass as people finally get their heads back on straight.

We can only hope. Frankly, I trust this assministration about as much as I would a bunch of poisonous snakes not to bite. Having read up on dominionism and its ilk, I only pray that we CAN get them out of office and get better people installed.

[DarthRetard]

it's happening to enough people that it's become a major problem. A lot of troops aren't getting the help they need when they get back and they aren't being forced to get the help they need.

They had no reason to expect to go to war with Iraq. Hell, the reserves are being sent to Iraq. That's a lot of people that didn't join up to fight in Iraq that are there anyway. Gotta cut them some slack.


Couldn't agree more with you on that first set of statements, on the second one, however, I find that that's a pretty lame copout. Do you think when I joined the Marine Corps that I honestly didnt know in my mind that I had a damn good chance of being sent overseas at some point? Do you honestly think that thought NEVER goes through a person's mind when they're signing up? Please. Free college? Research the GI Bill, it's not the golden unicorn fart that everyone claims it to be.

I'm not dishing on you Greenday, but I honestly have to laugh and shake my head when someone says they didn't know they'd be sent overseas. Iraq? Sure, but not figuring you're gonna head overseas? It's called troop rotation, it happens, even now, even for the (ch)Air Force.

[AFPheonix]

A lot of it really is knee-jerk to avoid how veterans were treated upon return from the Vietnam war. But still, a lot of the support the loudest supporters of the war have provided consists entirely of one of those yellow magnets on the back of their car.
Big whoop.

This thread probably could have enough material for several threads, from information suppression to troop mental and physical health care and more. As for amputees, we see so many now because we're so much better at keeping soldiers with serious injury alive long enough to be treated. Troops with those kind of injuries the last two wars would have died on the field. It's amazing yet saddening and frustrating all at once.

[ebonyknight]

I'm not sure who you intended to respond to, but since I was directly above your post, I'll answer.

I'm in Australia.

No, the OP. Why are my messages being moderated?

[Seshat]

Ah. Okay.

As for why your posts are being moderated: most likely it's the low post count. If that's it, the moderation will go away once you reach whatever the magic number is.

[CancelMyService]

No, the OP. Why are my messages being moderated?

I live in Pittsburgh. Did you think that I was some granola-munching hippie from Berkley or something? Despite our status as a so called "blue state" we have frothing-at-the-mouth-conservative talk radio on the 2 biggest AM stations in town so we hear a lot of "speaking your mind means you hate the troops" BS.

The excuse about not wanting to replay the Vietnam vet's experience is a cop out as well. While it's true a lot of vets coming back weren't treated as well as they should, the tales of vets being spit on when they returned has reached almost urban legend status where it's become accepted as fact that EVERY returning solider was spit upon when it was probably really 10-20% tops. Not that is any better, but it's like everyone has a tale of their second cousin's best friend's brother getting a rude welcome but not too many have direct experience.

[ebonyknight]

I live in Pittsburgh. Did you think that I was some granola-munching hippie from Berkley or something? Despite our status as a so called "blue state" we have frothing-at-the-mouth-conservative talk radio on the 2 biggest AM stations in town so we hear a lot of "speaking your mind means you hate the troops" BS.

No, except for Cali, the density of troops is a lot less on the West coast vs. East coast. If you have less contact with people of a certain type, you tend to make them monolithic.

I just ASSumed that with the amount of hero worship you were talking about, you were probably on the left coast.


I guess, i am gonna have to spam to get my post count up. :D

[AFPheonix]

The excuse about not wanting to replay the Vietnam vet's experience is a cop out as well. While it's true a lot of vets coming back weren't treated as well as they should, the tales of vets being spit on when they returned has reached almost urban legend status where it's become accepted as fact that EVERY returning solider was spit upon when it was probably really 10-20% tops. Not that is any better, but it's like everyone has a tale of their second cousin's best friend's brother getting a rude welcome but not too many have direct experience.

Yeah, but a lot of the bumpersticker set have been conditioned through sensationalist history and movies where the protagonist gets spit on, and of course hearing about Jane Fonda every time this topic comes up to knee-jerk troop love.
Not that it's necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but it definitely has been used to quiet dissent against the war.

[Rapscallion]

Well, you're a registered user and out of new user moderation - if it's still moderating you, let me know?

Rapscallion

[anriana]

I've never really understood that either. Most people I know in the military went there because they had nothing else to do - they weren't really college material (I hate that phrase but I don't know how else to explain it, and that's what most of them have said to me) and it was the military or a blue collar job for life. That and the recent issues with recruiting convicts and horrible treatment of sexual assault - I just don't get why people think a uniform magically transforms someone into a saint.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I just don't get why people think a uniform magically transforms someone into a saint.

I read a veteran's blog and something she said in a recent post brings to mind a quote from her that I think is very apt (paraphrasing to the best of my memory here): "The military is as good as the people it employs. It takes a good person and makes them better. The reverse is also true." I think that's very true. Someone who is basically a decent human being will be made more resilient and compassionate by the structure the military can provide; someone who is prone to sociopathy will be made twice as dangerous and nasty (think people who think going into it is all about getting to shoot up The Bad Guys and pose looking all 'tough').

[Saydrah]

ITT to offer two book suggestions:

On Combat and On Killing, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.

Excellent insight into the military that's accessible to civilians, even those like myself who are not particularly intrigued by the military. On Killing ended up in my collection of serial killer books despite the military focus not being what the collection is really for, and I bought the earlier book, On Combat, after enjoying On Killing.

And I agree- the troop worship makes it impossible to raise hard questions. It's another "flag pin" issue to me. Other countries' leaders don't feel the need to decorate themselves in tiny flags or awareness ribbons- why ours? I can't help but feel flag pins and support our troops ribbons are commercialized patriotism substituting for true patriotism, which recognizes that often the best thing a citizen can do for a country is to question its government.

[DarthRetard]

I do and don't agree with your statement about flag pins and ribbons, and I still say it call comes down to the motive behind it's enacting. Are you against the breast cancer ribbons too? Just curious. Anyways, for a lot of people, I'm sure seeing those yellow ribbons that say "Until They come Home", serves to remind a lot of people that there 140-160,000 people, 6 of them family/friends for me, fighting overseas in just Iraq, and that they're over there putting their lives on the line. I won't let this get into a debate about the war, that's another story.

I see those ribbons to be no worse than the "Proud parent of a____" bumper stickers. Same with the "We will never forget"s and the "In memory of NYPD/FD" stickers and decals.

The motive behind making them, however, seems too commercial to me. There are some groups though, who make them and sell them and take the proceeds and give them to families of dead soldiers or they give the proceeds to an organization to make care packages for troops.

[unholypet]

I believe I'll break my Fratcing cherry here.

So, I'm going to talk about what I know about local military past and present, meaning people I know and am related to.

Dad: He was raised in a neglectful, alcoholic, abusive home where he was half kicked out from age 5-21 and made to live with friends or on the street. He did not have good "friends," my Mom was the only good thing in his life.

He went in to try and straighten out his life. What he went into, being the Army, was a place where if you had alcohol to barter with, you could get away with anyting. He worked in the kitchens, got his G.E.D. and college cooking degree, and was stationed all over the world.

He will commonly tell you about how if you had beer, you were golden to your superior officers, even if you were worked as hard as the other guys.

Its disgusting that what is supposed to be the elite group of American fighters were really a bunch of whores and alcoholics who worked hard every day.


Friend: He is in the Air Force. To pass into the Air Force, you have to run a certain distance under a certain time. He was given 15 chances in one month to pass it, and made it on the 13th.

Same as back in my Dad's time. Alcohol is as good, if not better, than money.

The Air Force group he's in is full of whoring and drunken rampages. Yeah, he is in Iraq for his 2nd run,too. Wonderful to know that even when they're over there fighting and such, they have time to waste my tax dollars on debauchery.

Sister's Boyfriend He's in the Army, stationed in California right now, unless he is called to Iraq.

They live on base, work for five hours a day, and then have orgies.

(yes, Sister is still with him, but that's a different topic)

Despite it being banned, he has a laptop with wireles connectivity, a cellphone on his person all day, an mp3 player, and a PSP.

So, again, its a debauchery fest, but this time with more electronics.



I agree that troops need entertainment to stay sane, but that's ridiculous.

What you do with your money is fine, but why worship that?

I love that they are celebrated for offering their lives and bodies to defend us in the States, and I agree they should be paid for being there. If they died during service, whatever they were paid is not enough for their life, imo.

Would be nice if the hardcore obsesive civilians knew what they were <3ing so much.

[DarthRetard]

I'm just staying out of this topic at this point. I'm out guys.