Who shalle celebrate with me....

[DarthRetard]

....Emma Watson becomes legal on Tax Day(today). What a bittersweet moment it shall be. However, it shall be a glorious day, filled with birds singing, and chocolate and gum drops falling from the sky. Israel and Palestine will create a competitive soccer league together, and Bin Laden will renounce his ways and join the Peace Corps. Oh shall it be a glorious day.

[Greenday]

WOOHOO!!!!! Now that's what I'm talking about!

[anriana]

What exactly are we supposed to be debating here? Whether or not we find this particular person attractive? The level of skeaziness in this post?

[Sylvia727]

How about a culture that sexualizes children and holds jailbait girls up as masturbatory fodder? Then wonders why pedophiliac attitudes are on the rise.

I could be wrong, but I had the impression that Emma Watson wasn't oversexed. I've only seen her in the HP movies, and Hermione definitely wasn't an underdressed bimbo.

[DesignFox]

I don't think it's innappropriate that Greenday and Darth would be celebrating...

If I'm not mistaken, they are both quite close to her in age.

[ArenaBoy]

Something tells me Darth was being silly.

On a serious note, she's cute and I'm 20 FFS so please don't jump on me. :p

[DarthRetard]

Yeah, I'm 19, soon to be 20, and as a fan of the movies and Emma Watson, I felt quite guilty thinking she was attractive and not of a legal age. It was really just a joke post. My apologies to all those offended.

As for skeaziness, I don't see what's so skeazy.

For debate purposes then, who else thought the 7th book was written like a movie script? I did.

[Sylvia727]

I think anriana thought y'all were significantly older than Emma. And as we all know from xkcd (http://xkcd.com/314/), anyone older than 22 may not crush on her. Also according to this, you may crush on anyone 16.5 to 24. So you're good on that score.

[DarthRetard]

Oh, I'm well aware of the whole statutory rape issue and it's enforcement in my state. On the 16-24 rule, if they're under 18 in florida, it has to be with parental consent.

[Rapscallion]

*sigh*

She's been legal over here for a couple of years - age of consent over here is sixteen for sexual activity with anyone over that age.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

Yea, I just turned 20 a lil over a month ago. Nothing wrong with me seeing an 18 year old as hot.

[Seshat]

I don't see relative ages as being all that significant. As long as the younger party is mature enough to understand the ramifications, and the younger party's personality is fully formed enough to provide genuine consent, age is irrelevant to me.

What does bother me about the whole 'whoo! She's legal!' thing is the feeling I get. It feels like all that the speaker cares about is getting his (or rarely, her) rocks off. It makes me feel like you see her as a living sex doll, not a person in her own right.

I just want to grab the person's shoulders and shake, while shouting in their face "Can't you see her as a person? Can't you appreciate her as an actress? Do you have to care so much about whether it's legal to fuck her?" I don't, of course. Because I presume (hope!) I'm wrong. I hope the speaker cares about the person as a lot more than that.

And before anyone says 'but you do it too' - actually, I don't. My sexuality and aesthetics just aren't geared that way. I actually find the human physical form ungainly, poorly engineered, and awkward. If I don't find the personality attractive, I can't find a person sexually interesting. Yeah, I'm a freak.

[DesignFox]

<snip> If I don't find the personality attractive, I can't find a person sexually interesting. Yeah, I'm a freak.

I don't think you're a freak at all. :) I'm the same way.

Although, I agree that the attitude is a little unsettling, knowing what I know about Greenday and Darth, I don't think it was serious. At least, I didn't interpret it that way.

(and above Darth states that he said it jokingly)

Should people look at each other with more respect? Yea. But to me, I'll have a bit more respect for someone who waits until the person is legal to look at him/her as "hot" than someone who flat out calls a 15 year old "hot" (who isn't of the same age bracket).

If Darth or Greenday were 40- I'd think it would be creepy. I don't understand people who want to date (or lust after) someone that could be their child.

[Rapscallion]

If Darth or Greenday were 40- I'd think it would be creepy. I don't understand people who want to date (or lust after) someone that could be their child.

This is the bit that fascinates me. Is everyone who lusts after someone not reasonably within their age a pervert? As far as I understand the situation, men are programmed to breed by mating with females who are of breeding age. Older men can father children - James Doohan, a prime example - into their advanced years. They may need a chemical boost to make the hydraulic parts work right, or use celery as a splint, but the rest often still works.

Catherine Zeta Jones - she married a bloke fifteen years her elder (exactly, actually, since they share a birthday - isn't Google instructional?). Is she a pervert? Is he? That's a fair difference in age - a chum of mine reckoned within ten years was reasonable, though that raises the question of where the boundary should be, and who decides that?

So, where are the limits? If you accept a 'within ten years' rule as a general guideline, obviously you would have to set some limits for lower years, such as a twenty-year-old bloke wouldn't be socially allowed to romaticise a ten-year-old girl.

Now we're into the realm of the state having to get involved - does the government have the duty or power to say who can and cannot romance who? Should everyone have their date of birth tattooed on their foreheads so the police can check if a couple at a bar were allowed to be flirting?

I'm taking this to extremes, I know, but where would you draw the line?

Practically, you're not going to be able to stop people being attracted to each other, no matter what age they are.

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

If Darth or Greenday were 40- I'd think it would be creepy. I don't understand people who want to date (or lust after) someone that could be their child.

By the time it's a 60 year old and a 40 year old, it's not so big a deal. But at 35 and 15, yeah, it really is wrong.

[DarthRetard]

Well yeah, 35 and 15 may be wrong, but what say of, 40 and 20? 38 and 18?

Why is that so wrong? Both are consenting adults who are of legal age to understand the consequences regarding their actions, so why frown upon it?

Many years ago, a Spartan girl could be married as young as 12, I think it was, I know it was young, and Spartan male would be sent off at 8 years old.

From what I understand as well, women physically mature a lot sooner than males, so I see nothing wrong as long as they're two consenting adults.

What Raps was saying is that if I'm 18 and I'm happy about a girl becoming 18, I'm not a pervert, but if I were say, 35, then I'd be a sick bastard. There's a weird, prevalent, unnecessary double standard here, and the pedophilia issue has been played by the media to the point of all old men are perverts, and that's wrong.

Raps, don't forget Demi Moore(the ultimate MILF, imo) and Ashton Kutcher. Their age differences are not small, and I see no one complaining.

[Boozy]

Something I've heard a male friend of mine say:

"I keep getting older, but 16 year-olds remain the same."

Before you jump all over him for being perverted, try to understand what he's saying. When he was 18 years old, he was allowed (if not encouraged) to find 16 year-olds attractive. He still does...sort of. He likes to look, but would never act. He's now outpaced these girls mentally and emotionally, and so there's no basis for a relationship or even a decent conversation.

Most men don't need to appreciate a woman's mind just to enjoy the sight of their breasts. There's nothing wrong with that, and there's nothing immature or perverted about it. Its just the way they're wired.

[Rapscallion]

What I was really saying is that if we're going to start imposing limits, first of all who is going to say what a reasonable limit is, and secondly it's unenforceable anyway. I was more pointing out that to define someone as a sick bastard for finding a young woman of breeding age attractive is ... well, going contrary to nature.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

Should everyone have their date of birth tattooed on their foreheads so the police can check if a couple at a bar were allowed to be flirting?

That'd make picking up women a lot easier. You could be like, "Hey, how you doin...oh...underage, nevermind."

[Sylvia727]

In a con thread on CS, someone mentioned that inappropriate flirting had gone way down after the con started the wristbands color-coded by overage and underage. The staff did it for alcohol purposes, but the side effect is rather impressive.

With the number of 12-year-olds wearing makeup and letting their bellies hang out, it's no surprise that people have trouble judging age and hitting on people they normally wouldn't. Hell, I'm underage, and I've gotten into bars without being carded just by wearing nicer clothes and letting my hair down. (Not that I took advantage of course.) Pretending to be in high school is also a fun way to chase off middle-aged men who hit on me.

[Seshat]

Pretending to be in high school is also a fun way to chase off middle-aged men who hit on me.

I wish I could still do that. :(

But yes - as long as both parties are mature enough to understand, and their personalities have matured enough that they're truly capable of consent, I'm cool with whatever they do in the privacy of their own bedroom. Or on their own coffee table with the curtains drawn, for that matter.

So 60 and 18 is fine with me, provided the 18 year old is actually a mature enough personality. (Well, and the 60 year old. A 60 year old with severe mental handicap ... dubious. Get a psychiatric assessment of his/her ability to understand and consent, please.)

[Slytovhand]

Is it just me, or does Emma W still look like a 14-15 year old???

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yeah, I'm 19, soon to be 20, and as a fan of the movies and Emma Watson, I felt quite guilty thinking she was attractive and not of a legal age. It was really just a joke post. My apologies to all those offended.

As for skeaziness, I don't see what's so skeazy.



Well, Darth, I was gonna chastise you for being sleazy for lusting over someone that young, but then I remembered all the impure thoughts I had watching Smallville and decided to not be that much of a hypocrite. Carry on.

Besides, technically, you're still a teenager.
I am most certainly not a teenager. So you could probably argue that I'm even sleazier than you.

With Love,
Mrs. Robinson

[DesignFox]

By the time it's a 60 year old and a 40 year old, it's not so big a deal. But at 35 and 15, yeah, it really is wrong.

I think this way, too.

As long as they are two consenting adults- that's totally their business.

I may think it's weird for an 18 year old to want to date a 40 year old and vice versa, but I don't condemn them for it, either. They can consent...so..you know whatever...

I just...I dunno. I think it's ok to look...I mean..that's natural...but... I just get visions of creepy old men oggling young girls.

Why would you want to date someone in a different generation from yourself? I mean...really. What could you possibly have in common?

Just my opinion. *shrug*

[Seshat]

Why would you want to date someone in a different generation from yourself? I mean...really. What could you possibly have in common?

A love of art, opera, anime, football, or something?
A common sense of humour?
A compatible set of long-term life plans?
A mutual respect and affection?

Once a personality matures, the basics don't change all that much. Oh, you mature, you become even more yourself, you develop experience and hopefully wisdom. But going back to the 60-and-40-year-old: they're of different generations, but they're not so different they can't have enough in common to form a solid relationship.
A 38-and-18 pairing is a little shakier because the 18 year old typically still has a fair bit of developing to do to become mature. But if both parties are willing to risk the 18 year old 'growing out of' the relationship, they're old enough to understand and choose the risk. And yes, this pairing still has a good chance of having plenty in common.

[Slytovhand]

A love of art, opera, anime, football, or something?
A common sense of humour?
A compatible set of long-term life plans?
A mutual respect and affection?

Once a personality matures, the basics don't change all that much. Oh, you mature, you become even more yourself, you develop experience and hopefully wisdom. But going back to the 60-and-40-year-old: they're of different generations, but they're not so different they can't have enough in common to form a solid relationship.
A 38-and-18 pairing is a little shakier because the 18 year old typically still has a fair bit of developing to do to become mature. But if both parties are willing to risk the 18 year old 'growing out of' the relationship, they're old enough to understand and choose the risk. And yes, this pairing still has a good chance of having plenty in common.

Thanks Seshat.. my sort of thoughts exactly..

I would also add - life.

They'd get to see a different way of viewing the world, in ways different to what they would be used to. That can be a good growing experience for both.

Age is merely a number attached to how long the body has been growing. It doesn't actually say a lot about the person inside it.


Slyt

[powerboy]

Is it just me, or does Emma W still look like a 14-15 year old???

No, I also think that she looks 14-15.

I have dated a woman that was 15 years older than I was. I feel as long as the people are of legal age, than age should not be a problem.

[DesignFox]

I see the point Seshat. My question was more rhetorical.

It's just my personal viewpoint.

Like I said, I'm fine with what consenting adults do. I just, personally, wouldn't do it.

I have plenty of friends in different age brackets. Heck, some of my closest friends in college were 30-50. I just wouldn't consider dating them, you know? Personal thing.

And I agree that there is a difference between 40-60 and 18-38. I think there's a lot of mental maturing that goes on after the teens and twenties. I also acknowledge that everyone is different...so this may not be the case for some people.

I know how different personalities can be. My BF and I are prime examples. We tend to act "older" than other twenty-somethings.

;)

[anriana]

As someone said upthread, there are plenty of things that could have been brought up about sexuality in our culture, why it's socially acceptable to lust after someone who is 17 years and 365 days but not 17 years/364 days, how old the actors are going to be when the HP movies are finally over, etc, etc, but none of that was raised by the original post or first few replies.

I didn't find this thread skeazy because of the ages of the posters, I found it skeazy because of the subject matter. All I got from this was "I'm going to fap to Emma Watson, diggity diggity dig!"

I realize I am fairly new to Fratching/CS and may not be totally aware of the culture, but I was under the impression that this is a debate board, not a locker room.

[DarthRetard]

Well, you also don't know myself, Greenday, or any of the rest of us as it comes to our senses of humor then. I apologize if it came out in an offending manner, honestly, I do. I just found it coincidental that on April 15th, a day us American dread, one of my favorite actresses reaches true adulthood.

[Giggle Goose]

I didn't find this thread skeazy because of the ages of the posters, I found it skeazy because of the subject matter. All I got from this was "I'm going to fap to Emma Watson, diggity diggity dig!"


Dear Diary,

JACKPOT!!!!!!!!

:D

[Seshat]

I didn't find this thread skeazy because of the ages of the posters, I found it skeazy because of the subject matter. All I got from this was "I'm going to fap to Emma Watson, diggity diggity dig!"

Me too.

That sort of comment just creeps me out.

Well, you also don't know myself, Greenday, or any of the rest of us as it comes to our senses of humor then. <snip> I just found it coincidental that on April 15th, a day us American dread, one of my favorite actresses reaches true adulthood.

.... and the rest of us would know April 15th is significant ... how, exactly?

I've been associating with Americans for over a decade - almost two now - and all I know is that April-ish is tax time.

[AFPheonix]

Oh c'mon people, relax. Men and women the world over fap or schlick to pretty people. Why should Emma be any different?
Hell, one of my new roomies and I were checkin' out the waiter at the restaurant last night much to my husband's and his brother's dismay.

[Seshat]

Oh c'mon people, relax. Men and women the world over fap or schlick to pretty people.

Yup, you've officially Missed The Point.

Why should Emma be any different?

She shouldn't. Which is at least part of the point.

The whole idea of 'I don't care who she is or what she's like as a person, I just wanna fap to her jugglies' creeps me out.

I don't care who it is - Emma or George Clooney or that cute guy/girl down the street.

Hell, one of my new roomies and I were checkin' out the waiter at the restaurant last night much to my husband's and his brother's dismay.

I hope you didn't let on to the waiter. You know how many threads we get on CS about 'the creepy guy/girl'.

Of course, providing an opening flirt and either continuing or backing off depending on the response is fine.

But there's a huge difference between that (which acknowledges the other person as a person) and the sort of creepy staring that just lets you know that the starer is going to think of you tonight while they masturbate.

[Slytovhand]

To be a :devil:'s advocate....

Ummm... I'm thinking, it's the idea that has kept humanity's population increasing over the last few million years. Regardless of the apparent intelligence that humans exhibit (or not :p), we are still animals whose primary urge is to mate with what is considered the best breeding stock available. Survive - and procreate. I look around at the population and the stuff we do, and all I can think is 'we're still animals'...

Seshat - yeah, it does creep out staff - but doesn't that depend on how it's done? (course - I think it's pretty hard not to creep someone out, but there are those who do...).


15/04??? (that'll confuse my american readers :p)


Oh...'fap'? 'Schlick'???

[Boozy]

The whole idea of 'I don't care who she is or what she's like as a person, I just wanna fap to her jugglies' creeps me out.

It doesn't creep me out at all. I totally accept it as a normal male reaction to "hawt chicks".

My husband thinks these things all the time. It doesn't mean he's going to express them to me, because that would be impolite. It doesn't mean that he sees me as less of a person. I'm certain that I became more attractive to him after he got to know me. But that doesn't mean he didn't want to sleep with me the second he saw me either. It doesn't mean he would have done so, but his hind brain was definitely telling him to go for it.

The fact that men are biologically inclined to screw every woman they see only increases my respect for them. Because while some men act on these urges, most men don't. Most men do set aside their base urges and get to know women before sleeping with them. They have self-control the likes of which I'll never quite understand.

So what's wrong with a lustful comment here or there? I wish more women would let men talk about and admit their urges. Its healthy and cathartic.

[Seshat]

Seshat - yeah, it does creep out staff - but doesn't that depend on how it's done?

Yes. It can be done in a way which acknowledges the personhood of the other person: usually by means of an introduction-to-flirtation. I have no objection to an admiring look - even a lingering look - which ends at the eyes, where the look-er responds appropriately to the look-ee's signals.

However, a look can be also done in a way which indicates that the look-er doesn't care what the look-ee wants.

How many times have we had CS threads where the poster has complained that the customer stared at them and let them know the customer would be thinking of them while they were masturbating? And the poster has complained that they felt awful because of it, even violated.

Oh...'fap'? 'Schlick'???

Masturbate. It's a reference to the supposed sound.


So what's wrong with a lustful comment here or there? I wish more women would let men talk about and admit their urges. Its healthy and cathartic.

If men or women really get that turned on just from seeing a bit of skin or a rounded butt, that's completely beyond my experience. It's something as alien to me as being without physical pain is.

However, I do have an almost-instinctive reaction to being a target of sexual activity without having any choice in the matter, and that reaction is a revulsion so deeply seated in my psyche I haven't been able to find its source. It may even have a biological source, akin to the claim that 'men are hardwired to try to have sex with anything female'.

I can even make an argument for biological hardwiring of female revulsion at not having a choice in their mate. Many, if not most, female mammals and birds require their prospective mates to pass some sort of test before they permit the male to mate with them.


My 'ewww, creepy' reaction doesn't care whether the sexual activity I'm the target of actually involves me - if I think someone's planning to masturbate to me and give me no choice about it, the reaction triggers.
It's triggered worse the times I've been harassed or molested.
(Fortunately, I've never been raped. People who have, have my sympathy. I'm certain this reaction triggers at its fullest extent for that.)

[AFPheonix]

Of course we didn't let on to the waiter. Seriously, you should know at least from my posting that I have a bit more tact than that.

I also got the point, and frankly, I don't totally agree. I have never been molested, so that may explain the difference in my attitude and yours. I honestly don't have a problem with being able to recognize that someone is sexy.
I check out chicks with my husband. I show him porn I find hilarious. I had him watch 2 Girls 1 Cup just to see his reaction.

[ArenaBoy]

Just because one doesn't find the appeal of looking at someone (Given that they're legal age, which I'm going by) doesn't make it wrong nor does it imply that they want to sleep with the person they're staring at. I'll admit. I steal a glance or so at an attractive girl. Why? Because I'm a 20 year old male. And I proudly admit that. Want to know the shocking thing though? Most of my friends are girls. They know I'll steal a glance, I get made fun of for it too and I know that they steal glances too.

Again: I steal glances, but it doesn't mean, "Her, my bedroom, NOW!" It just usually means to me that she's cute.

They may need a chemical boost to make the hydraulic parts work right, or use celery as a splint, but the rest often still works.

*Chelsea fan* Celery, celery, if she don't come, I'll tickle her bum with a lump of celery! /Chelsea fan

Yes that's a Chelsea chant. And we are obsessed with celery.

[Seshat]

Of course we didn't let on to the waiter. Seriously, you should know at least from my posting that I have a bit more tact than that.

My error. I apologise.

I honestly don't have a problem with being able to recognize that someone is sexy.

Want to know the shocking thing though? Most of my friends are girls. They know I'll steal a glance, I get made fun of for it too and I know that they steal glances too.

I appear to be making my point very badly.

I know that people who are more visually oriented than I am - which seems to be most of the populace - find the human body aesthetic, and find certain members of the human species more aesthetically pleasing than others.

I don't have a problem with that.

What I do have a problem with is people who act as if they're going to masturbate to the memory (or picture) of someone else, regardless of how that someone else feels about it.

(Noting that women who pose for Playboy are either hopelessly naive, or are fine with men masturbating to their image.)

Looking is fine.
Looking and licking your lips in that skeezy 'I wanna eat you' way is not (unless you know the other person likes it).


Does that clarify?

[DarthRetard]

In my defense, for those of us who saw "I now Pronounce YOu Chuck and Larry", how was I supposed to act when I saw Jessica Biel practically naked? Should I have read a paper? It was meant to be sexually enticing, and humorous juxtaposition of a beautifully designed female next to a male pretending to be gay. I was still attracted though, it's in my genes, I can't help it, really.

Emma Watson's character wears these catholic schoolgirl type outfits sometimes, and I find the intelligent schoolgirl character archetype quite enticing, i really do. It's not just her looks.

I'm a Keira Knightley fan because she's clever and feisty, physically, there are more definitive women to choose from, but there are intangibles in each which make each woman more desirable.

I'm a firm believer, and I'm not just saying this, you all know I'm damn blunt, in the intangibles that make a girl/woman special and desirable.

When I see Emma Watson, I think Hermione Granger, and that gets the fantasy a-churning, so if you really analyze it, we're attracted to the character portrayal more, because we rarely see the real celebrity.

Sorry for being a perv. Don't know why it got interpreted that way, but I guess it's still not ok for guys to be open with that.

[anriana]

In my defense, for those of us who saw "I now Pronounce YOu Chuck and Larry", how was I supposed to act when I saw Jessica Biel practically naked? Should I have read a paper? It was meant to be sexually enticing, and humorous juxtaposition of a beautifully designed female next to a male pretending to be gay. I was still attracted though, it's in my genes, I can't help it, really.

Okay? This example is rather random, but if it was a scene intended to be sexually arousing, good for you for responding appropriately.

Emma Watson's character wears these catholic schoolgirl type outfits sometimes, and I find the intelligent schoolgirl character archetype quite enticing, i really do. It's not just her looks.

I like the schoolgirl fetish too. I talk about it on fetish boards, I talk about it at BDSM events, and I talk about it with people with friends who share my interests, because I know those are the people who want to hear about it.

When I see Emma Watson, I think Hermione Granger, and that gets the fantasy a-churning, so if you really analyze it, we're attracted to the character portrayal more, because we rarely see the real celebrity.

I'm not a HP fan, but there are several characters I am attracted to. I've written porn-without-plot in the Buffyverse, so I can definitely share this sentiment. I talk about how hot Willow is on boards and mailing lists dedicated to those discussions (and there are plenty) all the time.

Sorry for being a perv. Don't know why it got interpreted that way, but I guess it's still not ok for guys to be open with that.

Martyr complex much? And this paragraph is contradictory. First you're claiming you didn't intend anything perverted or sexual with this post, and then you're bewailing the fact that people aren't allowed to make sexual comments.



Some people have extremely sexist views. In the context of this thread, I don't care if you feel men are driven by unrepressable sexual urges or women are passionless creatures never sullied by such base emotions and thus incapable of understanding what it's like to be a poor, poor man repressed by our silly culture. I don't care if you feel the urge to make sexual comments or are attracted to beautiful people - I share these feelings. I don't care if you're attracted to be people under the age of consent. I don't care if you find Emma attractive. I don't care if you want to fantasize about her.

I made a negative comment on this thread because I feel there is a proper time/place to make these comments, and my limited perusal of Fratching did not indicate this as one. There are TONS of places on the internet devoted to sex. There are tons of places to talk about how much you want to fap to someone. There are tons of places to talk about how attracted to the character of Hermoine as played by Emma Thompson you are. There are tons of appropriate situations to make giggity giggity comments, especially as a young person which all of the people making the original comments apparently are.

There are lots of boards/communities I visit to talk about sex, there are lots of friends I talk to about celebrities, there are lots of friends I have very perverted, very base conversations about. I don't have a problem at all with people expressing sexual urges as some people are presuming. However, there is a difference between a ribald conversation - I remember a thread on CS a few days ago about something to do with pizza without sauce that turned rather sexual. Other than the heteronormativity of it, I found it very amusing - and a thread that consists of nothing more than "Yah, I want to fap to this chick." I just don't get why one would post that on a debate board that is not created for playing "Who's Hotter?"

[Boozy]

I just don't get why one would post that on a debate board that is not created for playing "Who's Hotter?"

Its not up to you to decided for what purpose this forum was created. That is the decision of our generous host.

There are several threads here that have never interested me. For example, I don't get why someone would feel strongly enough about their PS3 to vehemently defend it against an XBox, or why anyone would be asking them to, for that matter. So I don't spend a whole lot of time looking at those threads.

If you feel a subject is beneath debate, or isn't "debate-y" enough for you, don't bother posting in that thread. Its not necessary to chime in and say that you aren't interested in discussing these things.

This thread has actually turned into one of our most popular ones in the last week, and has touched on important subjects such as sexual objectification. You never know which way a thread will drift.

Sorry for being a perv. Don't know why it got interpreted that way, but I guess it's still not ok for guys to be open with that.

I am also detecting a touch of snark. If you don't want people to argue with your posts, you shouldn't post them on a forum known for its argumentative membership. We will turn virtually any subject into a debate here.

[anriana]

Its not up to you to decided for what purpose this forum was created. That is the decision of our generous host.

There are several threads here that have never interested me. For example, I don't get why someone would feel strongly enough about their PS3 to vehemently defend it against an XBox, or why anyone would be asking them to, for that matter. So I don't spend a whole lot of time looking at those threads.

If you feel a subject is beneath debate, or isn't "debate-y" enough for you, don't bother posting in that thread. Its not necessary to chime in and say that you aren't interested in discussing these things.


I have made several posts on this thread questioning why it was made and why the original people posted the thread/their comments here, and I feel that I have acknowledged several times that I am rather new here and not entirely familiar with the culture. I am really trying to understand the reasonings behind what I perceived to be an out-of-place comment. I am not making a definitive statement as to this board's nature, I am saying what my perception of the nature is and trying to understand an alternative perception. I have read the stickied descriptions of each forum and it is my perception that this board was created for debate and understanding other people's point of view - I am trying to understand why the OPs view this as the best place for discussions of this nature. I apologize if I made that unclear or conveyed a different meaning.

[DesignFox]

I think he put it here, anriana, because he thought it might turn into a debate, or some people might find his opinion offensive.

CS is not the place for questionable material. But here, there's a lot more leeway.

And, as it turns out, we have turned this into a debate!

[Boozy]

I am trying to understand why the OPs view this as the best place for discussions of this nature. I apologize if I made that unclear or conveyed a different meaning.

No apologies necessary. I am the one who should have clarified that I completely understand what you were saying, and I definitely recognize that you are new.

You are right when you say that Fratching is primarily a forum for debate. With that said, it can be difficult to know exactly what will constitute a debate. As a result, we tend to be fairly easy-going around here.

Even if the subject is not necessarily contentious, it could be disturbing or bothersome to some people, and is better here than on CS.com. A good example of this are the threads we have here about man's inhumanity to man. When a link is posted about a girl getting beaten to death for how she looks, it is highly unlikely that someone will chime in with a defense of her murderers. These threads don't see much arguing, just a lot of "Yeah, that's awful." But its nevertheless fairly heavy subject matter, and is probably better suited for Fratching than CS.com.

The idea of "waiting for a girl to become legal" is definitely contentious. I think the OP's wording left a little to be desired; it was perhaps too glib and cavalier. (We usually encourage the OP to add their opinion in situations like this, so members know what issue to debate. That was simply an oversight on our part.) But as we've seen, the underlying issue is one that is worth some discussion.

Hope that helps clarify things. :)

[ThePhoneGoddess]

The fact that men are biologically inclined to screw every woman they see only increases my respect for them. Because while some men act on these urges, most men don't. Most men do set aside their base urges and get to know women before sleeping with them. They have self-control the likes of which I'll never quite understand.


I really liked this point. I have observed the same thing among men. Self-control is a big part of 'male' culture; same reason they don't cry or show other strong emotions in public.

I think that's the difference between the average decent guy and the 'creeps' you hear about sometimes on CS. A decent guy will discreetly check out a girl, even a young looking one, because it's natural for them to do so. I know I've been looked at by men who were old enough to be my father some times; but they were discreet about it and did not do anything that made me uncomfortable. I guess I don't see the problem with it because I see it as a natural, biological thing for them to do.

A creep doesn't care about being discreet, and he doesn't care about exercising his self-control. He may get off on making the person uncomfortable, or they may have such an ego they can't understand why a teenage girl wouldn't be interested in a 50 year old man with a giant beer gut. They may think that they have the right to leer because a female with makeup and a nice outfit on 'deserves it'. Who knows.

[DarthRetard]

Again, anriana is out to crucify me. You're the one making me a martyr here, not me. Look, when I said the line about being a perv, take it as a bit of sarcasm and with a grain of salt.

If you don't like the topic, don't discuss it then. I don't care how disinterested you are.

My whole point of this thread, and I guess this lies at my feet for fault, was simply this: I don't feel like a pervert now that Emma Watson isn't considered a child in a cultural fashion, and I won't feel bad going to a movie and saying, "Hey, she's really pretty, and I'd totally hit that." I'm 19. You show me a 19 year old guy that hasn't ONCE said "I'd hit that" or something of that nature, and I'll show you a human that can reproduce asexually through spores in the air.

Sometimes I don't like the way my mind works, and I try to re-work it. It's not easy, it's really not. I don't, and never will, enter a bar for the simple goal of banging a girl. It's not right, and it's disrespectful. I see sex as a means of reproduction and a display of the most intimate affection.

I just don't see what I'm supposed to be defending myself against? So here's my ultimatum:

I think Emma Watson is beautiful. She's a great actress, and I'm attracted to her, and I was while she was younger. At least now it's an acceptable thought, and I feel relieved. I wanted to see who else thought Emma Watson was beautiful and was happy it's not a frowned upon sin to think about her that way.

[Seshat]

I think Emma Watson is beautiful. She's a great actress, and I'm attracted to her, and I was while she was younger. At least now it's an acceptable thought, and I feel relieved. I wanted to see who else thought Emma Watson was beautiful.

The problem is in how you said it. What you've said above might be what you meant, but what you actually said came across very differently.

I think, from reading this thread, you now know how your actual phrasing was understood.

and was happy it's not a frowned upon sin to think about her that way.

That's trickier.

I think it's a bit like masturbation or making out. I don't much care that people do it, I think it's healthy that people do it. But unless I'm actually at an orgy, I don't want to see it.

The good part about the whole 'I'd hit that' thing, is that if you're just talking among your friends, those who don't want to see it don't have to - even if you're in the same room.

[DarthRetard]

Well, I can say this, it wasn't really meant to be an inflammatory thread, but I'm glad I made it, there's some interesting viewpoints on here, and I will try to be more conscious of how I describe my thoughts to people, in order to avoid the confusion.

[anriana]

Again, anriana is out to crucify me.

I'd reply to the rest of your post but you seem to have issues with people disagreeing with you.

[Slytovhand]

Seshat: ...regardless of how that someone else feels about it.

Ummm.. I'm a little ...'confused'.

If someone doesn't know something, then would you still have a problem with it? This would get into the really seriously interesting side of philosophy..

Let's just say, very hypothetically, that I'm walking down the street and see someone who I find very sexually attractive (adding the 's' word cos I can also see people in other ways... 4 in fact). On the basis of the physical alone, I (or perhaps better - the chemicals in this body that I currently inhabit) decide that she would make a good mate for the purposes of offspring to keep the human population going.... Of course, what really happens is that the imagination starts to go into overtime about what I would like to do...

Humans (unfortunately, my body is one) isn't completely happy with just 'imagining' alone, and wants a physical release..(aka masturbation).

Is that a 'bad' thing (yep..ethics here). Even if she has noticed my look (which would probably be 'admiring' and possibly 'lustful' - as per above). If she looks at me and thinks "eew yuck, he's gross" (and a fairly natural response too, I might suggest :p), does that mean that I 'shouldn't ' go ahead that night? Because she may not feel ok about that? If, in her mind, I'm repulsive (for whatever reason), does that mean I have to alter my mind? Let alone control my urges or fantasies?



Or is the argument merely limited to expressing that desire/act? The objectification of...well, anything really... is a going to be a long and potentially interesting debate. If we kept to philosophy rather than emotions, we could see some very interesting arguments made

Back to TPG and Boozy... what about sexually confident people? They tend not to come across as 'sleazy', nor as creeps, nor as being totally interested in a woman for her mind, soul, emotions, etc? They go into a bar, find someone they are interested in, do what they can to have sex with them, and then leave. It's not just the men who do this. Other than our own particular 'morals' regarding this, is it a problem? And what if someone came on this forum and expressed this?

I am curious that this thread was started in here, though. Not what has come of it, but just the original thought behind it. I've seen far 'worse' over in CS that stayed there.


And lastly - Arenaboy..you Chelsea lot are just plain weird! :p


Oh - and really lastly - if any or all of this doesn't make sense, I'm fighting a head cold :p

Slyt

[Seshat]

Even if she has noticed my look (which would probably be 'admiring' and possibly 'lustful' - as per above). If she looks at me and thinks "eew yuck, he's gross" (and a fairly natural response too, I might suggest :p), does that mean that I 'shouldn't ' go ahead that night? Because she may not feel ok about that?

What happens in your mind and stays in your mind is your business. Do what you want with it. If, however, you draw another person into a sexual activity without their consent, that's crossing the line.

Fantasising about them while you masturbate isn't drawing them into your sexual activity. Letting them know that you intend to, or that you have - that crosses the line.

Letting a third party know that you intend to/have masturbated about another person may or may be crossing the line. It depends on the third party, really. A bunch of people staring at a picture of an actor that none of them will ever meet? Pretty much harmless.

I think you can all make up the not-harmless cases. :)

As for the look itself: sometimes all it takes is a look to make me feel slimy all over. It really depends on the look.
(Not the look-er, as much as the look. I've had people who most folks would call 'creepy' be just fine, and handsome young men who've made me feel awful just by looking at me. It really is the look.)

Or is the argument merely limited to expressing that desire/act?

Hopefully I've just explained. If not, feel free to ask.

Back to TPG and Boozy... what about sexually confident people? They tend not to come across as 'sleazy', nor as creeps, nor as being totally interested in a woman for her mind, soul, emotions, etc?

Some can come across as sleazy or creepy. Some just have a strangeness about them. Some seem perfectly normal. I've never figured out what makes the differences there.

They go into a bar, find someone they are interested in, do what they can to have sex with them, and then leave. It's not just the men who do this. Other than our own particular 'morals' regarding this, is it a problem?

So long as all involved are consenting adults, it's not the business of anyone else. If misrepresentations are made, I would consider it unethical.

If a person who has promised monogamy (or closed polyfidelity) to another (or others) goes out and has sex outside his or her closed circle, that's unethical.

If a person claims to be free of STDs and knows they're not, that's unethical.

If a person claims to be on the pill/have an IUD/be snipped/otherwise be taking care of contraception, and they're not, that's unethical.

If a person purports to be seeking a relationship and actually only wants a one night stand - or vice versa - that's unethical.

But honestly represented sex among consenting, mature partners? Perfectly fine, perfectly ethical, and none of my business.

And what if someone came on this forum and expressed this?

If it was in the context of a debate, it's fine.

If it was completely random and in no way related to anything this forum is about, it would be as wrong as .. say .. me coming on this forum and rhapsodising about the dark chocolate I'm eating. Only it would also cross the TMI taboo, which chocolate generally doesn't. But both posts would be out of place.

[DarthRetard]

I'd reply to the rest of your post but you seem to have issues with people disagreeing with you.

Ah, that statement seems to have been misinterpreted again, because I fail to remind myself how few people on here know my sarcastic sense of humor. I do apologise if that came off at snarky/abrasive.

I merely meant that you seem to be targeting my ethical.....motives, let's say, when you merely can't read my mind or understand how I feel about women. that's all.

[Slytovhand]

Letting a third party know that you intend to/have masturbated about another person may or may be crossing the line. It depends on the third party, really. A bunch of people staring at a picture of an actor that none of them will ever meet? Pretty much harmless.


Which brings us back to the OP. Was it, in your opinion (and anyone else following our little tete-a-tete here), crossing the line for Darth to post it? It sort of combines 2 of the things you just mentioned - unfortunately at either ends of the spectrum (ie - telling 3rd parties, but about a picture/movie).



As for the look itself: sometimes all it takes is a look to make me feel slimy all over. It really depends on the look.
(Not the look-er, as much as the look. I've had people who most folks would call 'creepy' be just fine, and handsome young men who've made me feel awful just by looking at me. It really is the look.)

<snip>

Some can come across as sleazy or creepy. Some just have a strangeness about them. Some seem perfectly normal. I've never figured out what makes the differences there.



Please allow me to enlighten :p

I was brought up in a socially unhealthy environment. No - not the abusive stuff (not serious, any rate). But the only continuous female contact I had for the first...oh 15 or more years of my life, was from a sister who hated me, and a mother who wasn't happy at all with her life. There was a neighbour across the road, but she was fairly religious. My parents had other issues. I went to an all boys high school. All of that led me to having a crap 'others-esteem' when it comes to women (and yes, that's in the present tense :D). Which, ... can come off as sleazy or creepy. I never really learned to be completely myself with females, and in particular, ones I am attracted to.

So...I would think that anyone who creeps someone out, or you see as sleazy is someone who came from a maladjusted background - in all its many glorious and colourful varieties.


If it was completely random and in no way related to anything this forum is about, it would be as wrong as .. say .. me coming on this forum and rhapsodising about the dark chocolate I'm eating. Only it would also cross the TMI taboo, which chocolate generally doesn't. But both posts would be out of place.

Dark??? Oh no!! Now there's a whole new debate thread..... :D

BE Happy :D

[Seshat]

Which brings us back to the OP. Was it, in your opinion (and anyone else following our little tete-a-tete here), crossing the line for Darth to post it? It sort of combines 2 of the things you just mentioned - unfortunately at either ends of the spectrum (ie - telling 3rd parties, but about a picture/movie).

Hm.

I think it's crossing a different line, actually. This is the TMI line.

It's much like I don't tell the world that I like to wear a bunny suit and sing the Hallelujah chorus during sex while my husband waves it like a conductor's baton. (Okay, so I made that up. Yes, all of it. Honest.)

Please allow me to enlighten :p

<snip>

So...I would think that anyone who creeps someone out, or you see as sleazy is someone who came from a maladjusted background - in all its many glorious and colourful varieties.

I disagree. There's a big difference between socially awkward and sleazy. Sure, some socially awkward or maladjusted people are also sleazy, either intentionally or accidentally. But some sleazy people are just plain sleazy.

However, I also contend that for each individual man, sorting out their own social awkwardness around women is the most effective way to solve it. The alternative is to fix the rest of the culture. And you can look at the history of any major social movement to see how much concentrated effort, by how many people, it takes to fix a culture.

Yes, it sucks that you were raised poorly and have to deal with the results of that now. Yes, you have my sympathy for it. But the way to sort it out is to actually do the bloody hard work of sorting it out.

If you want advice on how to sort it out, by the way, feel free to PM me or some other person who seems willing and sympathetic. Or start a thread asking for advice.

[Slytovhand]

Hm.

I think it's crossing a different line, actually. This is the TMI line.

It's much like I don't tell the world that I like to wear a bunny suit and sing the Hallelujah chorus during sex while my husband waves it like a conductor's baton. (Okay, so I made that up. Yes, all of it. Honest.)



Uh-huh....sure..... :p

Actually - looking at the very OP, it was just alluded to ... weirdly. Weird enough for me to be thinking that hell had frozen over for some reason.. It was sometime after the OP that it started to really get ... sleazy...



I disagree. There's a big difference between socially awkward and sleazy. Sure, some socially awkward or maladjusted people are also sleazy, either intentionally or accidentally. But some sleazy people are just plain sleazy.

True... but it still probably comes from a 'bad' upbringing. Look at all the CS threads on them...especially face to face (I just read the one about the puke in the shopping cart..ewwwww)



However, I also contend that for each individual man, sorting out their own social awkwardness around women is the most effective way to solve it. The alternative is to fix the rest of the culture. And you can look at the history of any major social movement to see how much concentrated effort, by how many people, it takes to fix a culture.

Yes, it sucks that you were raised poorly and have to deal with the results of that now. Yes, you have my sympathy for it. But the way to sort it out is to actually do the bloody hard work of sorting it out.

If you want advice on how to sort it out, by the way, feel free to PM me or some other person who seems willing and sympathetic. Or start a thread asking for advice.

thanks... but meh. I'm sort of over the whole idea now (he says, probably trying to convince himself :p)

[Greenday]

The alternative is to fix the rest of the culture. And you can look at the history of any major social movement to see how much concentrated effort, by how many people, it takes to fix a culture.

And you have now summed up my thesis for my Politics of Diversity paper. I have a page done already. Want to write the other six pages?

[Seshat]

And you have now summed up my thesis for my Politics of Diversity paper. I have a page done already. Want to write the other six pages?

I probably have, over the course of my life.

(Go check out the story of 'Frank Fullblood (http://www.fratching.com/showpost.php?p=2746&postcount=35)', for part of your thesis.)

[Greenday]

I probably have, over the course of my life.

(Go check out the story of 'Frank Fullblood (http://www.fratching.com/showpost.php?p=2746&postcount=35)', for part of your thesis.)

Too late. Paper was due today at 10:30am. You can check it out under the literature forum on CS.