couple aborts IVF concieved twins due to "they wanted a girl"

[BlaqueKatt]

story here (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/why-our-next-child-must-be-a-daughter/story-e6freuy9-1225983928223)

While I don't agree with abortion, I'd rather not see government restrictions on it(I'd rather see more money go to prevention of unwanted pregnancies, more funding for birth control and education), but the attitudes of this couple just seem very wrong.

They already have three sons and said they now want to have a girl after their baby daughter died.
"After what we have been through we think we are due for a bit of luck," the man said.

"We know we definitely won't be replacing her in any way, but want the chance to have the baby girl we don't have."

choosing the gender of your child is not "chance".

chance-the absence of any cause of events that can be predicted, understood, or controlled, a possibility or probability of anything happening.

It's just appalling to me that someone can be that selfish. Have we sunk this low as a species?



Sadly someone on the place I found this article found "support groups" for "gender disappointment" And included a quote from one woman who "burst into tears" after seeing the ultrasound that showed her child wasn't a girl, and was terribly upset that her husband wasn't "more supportive". The woman was actually angry that her husband told her to be thankful that the child was healthy, because "he just didn't get it".

I never found out the gender of my son until he came out, apparently I was the only one in the last 5 years in that hospital that didn't want to know. Everyone was shocked that I didn't know, and didn't want to know. Mainly because I knew a few people that did find out, and tragically, after having everything set up, names picked, and "plans for the child's future" the child didn't make it.

another article (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/folly-of-designing-babies-to-order/story-e6frg6zo-1225872432206) discusses why gender selection is ill-advised, but it misses something major.

My mom and step-dad had two girls, myself and my sister, my step-dad hoped I'd be a boy, oops, I wasn't. Ya know what, did that keep me from loving to fish with my stepdad, or learning to work on cars. I hated dresses and barbies, I had a huge collection of matchbox and model cars though. For all intents and purposes-I may as well have been a boy(heck until I was around 10 everyone thought I was a boy). How disappointed would this couple be if they ended up with a daughter like me?

For many other people, there are more personal reasons for desiring a child of one sex over another. A father may have always wanted a little boy he can take to the footy or go fishing with and initiate into the ranks of manhood. A mother may want a little girl with whom she can share a tender closeness.

Yeah I never had any closeness with my mother, would this couple want a refund if their daughter wasn't the "perfect little princess" they want and expect? What if she has a learning disability, what if she ends up being a lesbian, or transgendered, what if she's like me, basically a boy with two x chromosomes? Your child is not a dress up doll or a toy, it's a human being with it's own personality and quirks, and guess what, it's a bit of a crap shoot. Children, like their parents, are not perfect, they may disappoint you, if you can't get over disappointment, maybe kids aren't the best choice for you.


Read both articles before responding please.

[HYHYBT]

I just wondered if they even took into consideration how Mom getting an abortion, particularly for such a trivial reason, might affect their existing children.

[Gravekeeper]

I was about to say "Why didn't they just go the sperm sort route" but I see its apparently illegal there. Even still, aborting because it wasn't what you wandered is rather....I'm not entirely sure what the term is. Selfish and inhumanly deplorable? >.>

I mean, I'm pro-choice, but I draw the line at "designer" abortions. If you wanted a girl so bad, hop a plane to the US and get a sperm sort done. I mean seriously, is having two abortions on your concious for such a selfish reason *really* perferable to the cost of a plane ticket?

Nevermind the media backlash. If they had just gone to the media and went "We want a daughter but they won't let us" it would have generated an actual debate. Instead they went this...route....and frankly are asking to be villified.

If you want a 100% infallable chance at a girl. Adopt.

[Eisa]

Wow. :eek: :mad:

To be fair, I can understand a little bit of disappointment if you were thinking "oh I want a girl/boy" and it's the opposite. But you know what? It's still your child. And the people I know who have felt disappointed got over it pretty fast--they just needed that moment to wallow like "damn it it's not a girl/boy/bat." :p

This? Is despicable.

[Mytical]

This? Is despicable.

QFT, QFE. There are many people who can not have a child, or because of medical conditions would not want to pass it on to a child. They would love a chance to take care of a child. Don't get me wrong I am sort of middle of the road between pro-choice and pro-life. Destroying a life just because of it's gender? I just can't support. At all. Ever.

[Sarah Valentine]

Sadly someone on the place I found this article found "support groups" for "gender disappointment" And included a quote from one woman who "burst into tears" after seeing the ultrasound that showed her child wasn't a girl, and was terribly upset that her husband wasn't "more supportive". The woman was actually angry that her husband told her to be thankful that the child was healthy, because "he just didn't get it".

WTF!? That's fucked up, she should just shut the hell up and be happy that her kid didn't have any health problems.

[Sarah Valentine]

If you want a 100% infallable chance at a girl. Adopt.

This. Do you know how many adoption centers there are, how many kids need homes? If you really want a girl so bad the least you can do for humanity is adopt one you selfish bitch.

[anakhouri]

I am pro-choice but that is sickening. I asked my husband's cousin if she wanted her new baby sibling to be a boy or girl, and she said, "I don't get to decide. It's God's choice." Now whether you believe in God or not, it's true that you don't get to decide, so suck it the fuck up and go on with your life.

What incredibly stupid people. I wish the IVF clinic could tell them to take a hike and refuse to help them again, but that's probably not legal.

And if you absolutely have to have a girl, adopt a kid from China. They have plenty of girls for the taking there. I've never understood why people feel the kid has to be theirs biologically, which these people apparently do (but then don't care enough about their biological kids to keep them...).

[ExRetailDrone]

I'm also pro-choice, but that is disgusting! My cousin desperately wanted a girl, yet she has 4 boys. And you know what? She loves them dearly and I have a feeling it never crossed her mind to abort because she wanted a girl so badly. How deplorable.

I agree with what others have said here. If they cared so much about the gender of their child, they should just have adopted a girl. Or taken a trip to the US in the first place. What they did is pure selfishness and they should be prohibited from ever having IVF done again. Perhaps they should be prohibited from ever having biological children again since they obviously don't really care about them, they only care about themselves :mad:

[BlaqueKatt]

If you wanted a girl so bad, hop a plane to the US and get a sperm sort done. <snip>
If you want a 100% infallable chance at a girl. Adopt.

yup especially as "sperm sorting" is only 60-70% effective(normal chance is 50/50, so not much better)-only "reliable" method(99%) is something called PGD-Embryos are created in a laboratory and allowed to divide. After three or four days, one cell from each dividing embryo is removed and analyzed for DNA and genetic material. Once the sex of the embryos are determined, only those embryos of the desired sex are implanted into the mother’s uterus through IVF. PGD testing costs between $2,000 and $4,000 plus the costs of IVF

[Ipecac Drano]

Whatever happened to the good old-fashioned attitude of "We're having a baby!"?

[BlaqueKatt]

Oh my word...it gets worse

follow up article (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01/08/couple-aborts-twin-boys-because-they-want-a-girl-using-ivf/)

the woman, who is in her thirties, is "consumed by grief over the daughter who died soon after birth" and admits she has "become obsessed with having a daughter and it has become vital to her psychological health."

[ExRetailDrone]

So... she's consumed by grief over her lost daughter, but her 2 aborted sons mean nothing? I think she needs some serious psychological counseling before even thinking of having any more children.

I feel sorry for her current children. I wonder if they're being neglected because they're not girls :(

[Sarah Valentine]

I posted on the follow up article it's pretty much everything I've said already and added what ExRetailDrone said with my own wording of it, it'll most likely get taken down as with subject matter like this I get pissed off really quick.

Here it is

What a stupid selfish bitch. I'm pro choice for certain situations and I think this is absolutely disgusting, rape, incest, and servere medical problems are perfectly acceptable. Gender selection is NOT, I feel sorry for the kids she has already seeing as they're boys are they being neglected because they aren't girls? If she really wanted a girl so damn bad she should have adopted one, if you ask me she shouldn't be aloud to do IVF again since the life of an INOCENT CHILD apparently means NOTHING to her if it isn't a girl. I truly hope this terrible woman burns in Hell for the rest of eternity for the MURDER of her own unborn CHILDREN!




Yeah, it did get removed.

[fireheart17]

I just wondered if they even took into consideration how Mom getting an abortion, particularly for such a trivial reason, might affect their existing children.

I don't think they were aware of it. In Australia, abortion laws vary by state, but regardless, it's treated as day surgery-the kids could've been sent off to vacation care (basically a daycare program for school-age kids run in the school holidays....which is what the time is around now) or school.

In Victoria (the state where this is all taking place), abortions are legal on request. If she'd tried to have it anywhere else except there and the Australian Capital Territory, she would've needed a damn good reason for it (the reasons given for the other states are danger to the mother or unborn baby, cases of rape, mental health issues and in a couple of states, socioeconomic factors)


I was about to say "Why didn't they just go the sperm sort route" but I see its apparently illegal there. Even still, aborting because it wasn't what you wandered is rather....I'm not entirely sure what the term is. Selfish and inhumanly deplorable? >.>

I mean, I'm pro-choice, but I draw the line at "designer" abortions. If you wanted a girl so bad, hop a plane to the US and get a sperm sort done. [/I]


To clarify: Gender selection in GENERAL is illegal, unless it's done for a legitimate medical reason i.e. family has a genetic defect that could be passed on via gender-one example being hemophilia.

As for sperm donations in general, some women are actually turning to the US to get sperm and/or eggs as there's a shortage of donors

This. Do you know how many adoption centers there are, how many kids need homes? If you really want a girl so bad the least you can do for humanity is adopt one you selfish bitch.

The bare minimum she could've done is gone for fostering, as adopting Australian children is not as simple as it sounds. Adopting Overseas children is more expensive. I believe that she went down this route as it's cheaper....which still doesn't make it right.

[FONT="Century Gothic"]I posted on the follow up article it's pretty much everything I've said already and added what ExRetailDrone said with my own wording of it, it'll most likely get taken down as with subject matter like this I get pissed off really quick.


It mostly likely will. There's a certain degree of censorship on the article.


And as for my own two cents: I promise that not all Australians are like this. :D

I really don't feel comfortable with sperm sorting or any form of gender selection unless it's for a decent reason-this definitely does not count. It seems that people have this idea of a "perfect family" in their heads these days, which involves all boys or all girls or one of each. It seems that people want more control over everything in their lives.

[blas87]

In all fairness, I sort of roll my eyes at people who yell about people "playing God" when people do sort (hey, if they have the money to waste to guarantee they get that baby boy, more power to them, I say) or do testing to make sure that their kid is not mentally retarded or has any other problems, or when potential parents take every measure possible to have a "normal" kid, I have no issue with that.

I do take an issue with aborting a baby just because it isn't the gender you wanted. There is always adoption. There was no reason for abortion in this case whatsoever. They should be ashamed of themsleves.

[fireheart17]

In the response to the "adopt a child" line, I think I can sort of rationalize why she didn't go down that route, aside from it not occurring to her.

In terms of local children in Australia needing adoption, the numbers are minimal-often the number is maybe 60-70 and it has declined-often kids needing adoption are formally adopted by a relative.

In terms of intercountry adoptions, the costs can be staggering, as each country has its own requirements for adoption. (On an unrelated note, gay couples cannot adopt in Victoria where this takes place, while single folks regardless of sexuality CAN adopt, but are lower priority and can usually only adopt special-needs kids or in exceptional circumstances) It can be something like $20,000 AUD and higher than that to adopt a child.

I'm ready to place my own comment onto that, as I have a friend who's infertile due to a congenital defect (MRKH, meaning that she's missing one or more of the reproductive organs, in her case she's lucky, she has her ovaries but no womb, while some other suffers have no ovaries either) and will be forced to either adopt or go the surrogacy route if she wants kids.

[Kimmik]

I am appalled at the deepest level.... My first child was a son... and he died 2 weeks and 4 days after his birth... While yes I would love to have a son.. our second child was a girl.. and we love her madly. This is why I am against abortions... these people are no better then the people in charge of china... *I deeply detest abortions.. but I realize that it is a choice that is not mine to make other then I wont have one*

I never wanted a girl... the thought scared me... I will be honest.. I was a little sad that my second was going to be a girl... but that lasted all of 2 seconds... it was quickly replaced with the omg I am blessed to have a second child. These people do not deserve to even care for a fish... wtf is wrong with them...

[KnitShoni]

Wow. :eek: :mad:

To be fair, I can understand a little bit of disappointment if you were thinking "oh I want a girl/boy" and it's the opposite. But you know what? It's still your child. And the people I know who have felt disappointed got over it pretty fast--they just needed that moment to wallow like "damn it it's not a girl/boy/bat." :p

This? Is despicable.

I had a bit of that disappointment when I found out I was having a girl when I'd wanted a boy. But, oh, hey-I got over it about 5 minutes after the ultrasound. She would be a completely different awesome/infuriating/intelligent/beautiful/ pain in the rear if she were a boy, and I would miss all that if I'd had an abortion because she wasn't what I thought I wanted.

[lordlundar]

You know what the worst part about this is? The Anti-choice group (yeah, I know, they call themselves pro-lifers, but truth be told, true pro-life people are not the picketers) are going to use this a proof for their cause. Expect to see more abortion bombings soon.:mad:

[fireheart17]

You know what the worst part about this is? The Anti-choice group (yeah, I know, they call themselves pro-lifers, but truth be told, true pro-life people are not the picketers) are going to use this a proof for their cause. Expect to see more abortion bombings soon.:mad:

This is in Australia so I doubt it. We don't have abortion bombings. More likely, we'll have more idiots standing outside abortion clinics proclaiming that "abortion is the devil's tool"

[Mytical]

As mentioned I am more of a 'pro-lifer' then a 'pro-choice' because there are many people who would love to adopt. I am realize, however, that others disagree with me. I also realize there are legitimate reasons for wanting an abortion. Rape would be one, in my opinion (YMMV). Medical Conditions another.

However, gender of the child? No, no, a thousand times no (yes I said this before, but there is not enough times in the world I can say it). It's detestable, and I agree..the couple shouldn't even be allowed to take care of earthworms (or animals, or etc).

In all honesty there are other things I don't think should be a reason, but this has to be one of the craziest reasons out there.

[BookstoreEscapee]

I am absolutely pro-choice, but this is a disgusting reason. And frankly, I'm not sure I would grant this woman a child to adopt, if I were the one in charge of the adoption agency. She sounds like she needs serious therapy, not another kid.

My friend and her husband have 2 kids of their own (the oldest is just turned 7, the youngest is 1), plus an adopted daughter from China, who is almost 5, and they are in the process of adopting again from China - within the next year they will have two more children, both boys, to add to their brood (I think they are about 5 and 6). I have no idea how much it has cost them to do this but I know it ain't cheap, and they had to have all kinds of background checks (financial, legal, psychological) to even be considered. I don't know about the boys, but the girl is special needs, and very small for her age (the 1yo is only a few inches shorter than her); at first they thought it was just an "orphanage delay" or something to that effect, but after almost 3 years they're still not sure what her actual issues are.

[macphile]

I'm pro-life, so I object to abortion either way, but this is certainly an uncool sort.

Never mind all the usual arguments about the rightness or wrongness of abortion in general or in choice of a child's sex (which goes down some ugly societal roads), what do they tell the other kids when they ask why the twins never happened? "Well, they were boys, and we wanted a girl, so we tossed 'em." Nice.

[Megg]

If they wanted a girl so badly, and their country wouldn't allow them to select the gender, why in the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster would they do the IVF at all? This woman needs a head doctor, not a fertility doctor. Twins no less! I am pro-choice, for the record, though I could never kill a baby inside me unless I knew there was a valid medical reason ... and even then, it would have to be a severe deformity or something. I believe that we have free will for a reason, and if you choose to abort a child, that's your business. I also believe I am allowed to be sad for those poor babies who didn't deserve such treatment. Some mother she is. :(

[FArchivist]

It's just appalling to me that someone can be that selfish. Have we sunk this low as a species?

In my opinion, no. This attitude has been prevalent in our species in all of recorded history. It's nothing new, so we have not sunk lower than that. Previously, the reaction of this copy would be to leave the son in the middle of a forest or on a mountainside to die, should they be dissatisfied with the gender.

Yeah I never had any closeness with my mother, would this couple want a refund if their daughter wasn't the "perfect little princess" they want and expect? What if she has a learning disability, what if she ends up being a lesbian, or transgendered, what if she's like me, basically a boy with two x chromosomes?

Which is why technology is evolving to meet those standards. Do not be surprised; in 50 years we'll be able to do Gattaca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gattaca)and I can guarantee it will happen. You won't have to worry about learning disabilities, sexual orientations, intellectual proclivities...it'll all be pre-programmed for you.

[Hyena Dandy]

eviously, the reaction of this copy would be to leave the son in the middle of a forest or on a mountainside to die, should they be dissatisfied with the gender.


The 'leave a child on the mountainside' thing was hardly widespread, and certainly never was done simply on account to gender. Even Henry VIII didn't kill his daughters, no matter how much he wanted a son.

[Boozy]

Even Henry VIII didn't kill his daughters, no matter how much he wanted a son.

This example makes no sense. What possible motive would the richest man in England have to kill his daughters? Spite? It's not like he couldn't easily support them.

Infanticide was committed out of poverty and desperation.

[Hyena Dandy]

This example makes no sense. What possible motive would the richest man in England have to kill his daughters? Spite? It's not like he couldn't easily support them.

Infanticide was committed out of poverty and desperation.

That was kind of my point.

It wasn't committed because you were unhappy with the result, was what I was saying. It wasn't an idle decision.

[HYHYBT]

Well, after all, he *did* kill several of his wives, despite going to great lengths to ensure he could have just divorced them.

[fireheart17]

A few more things that I can think of.

First off, not all of us are like that in Australia I can assure you. We have pro-life and pro-choice just as much as everywhere else, however at least in my state, the anti-abortion nuts* tend to stick to the only abortion clinic in my state (some of the hospitals will do abortions but I have not seen any anti-abortion nuts hanging around my local hospital) rather than doing public demonstrations.

Secondly, IVF is not cheap ANYWHERE-the figures I've heard bandied about are around the $5000 mark per cycle (depending on the method it can be more or less). I hope the woman has enough money to be able to go through that cycle AND take care of her three sons, not to mention the legal dramas that she's going through to fight for it. On top of that, if they do decide to go overseas for their chance to conceive a girl, then it'll be the airfares, accomodation, the cost for a cycle THERE and especially if it's unsuccessful it'll cost more, then once the baby comes along, it'll be more clothes and more stuff for her specifically-unlike the boys, I doubt she will want to play with Go Go Diego toys and wear boys clothing (the baby stuf would be a possibility since I do believe that most onesies/romper suits are made with the nappy in mind, so the gender isn't an issue, but when you start hitting the 1-2 year old mark...). It's an expensive decision, and all because she wants a girl.

Thirdly, I sincerely hope that these two aren't the type to be relying on government handouts.....


*=by anti-abortion nuts, I tend to mean the ones who hang around clinics claiming that "abortion is the devils tool" and shoving plastic foetuses and metal implements in front of women's faces. I don't mean pro-life folk in general.

[FArchivist]

The 'leave a child on the mountainside' thing was hardly widespread, and certainly never was done simply on account to gender. Even Henry VIII didn't kill his daughters, no matter how much he wanted a son.

I regret that I must disagree with you. Female infanticide has historically occurred in cultures and areas wherein son preference was promoted and females regarded as a lesser species (http://www.wcacentre.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=183&Itemid=58). While this is less common in Northern Europe historically due to a remarkably high infant death rate, it has been historically far more common worldwide. Today it is being replaced with sex-selective abortion.

[macphile]

Good lord. I'm in the minority as pro-life (I must come to accept this, LOL), but this is just adding insult to injury, as it were.

My aunt and uncle had three boys. The third was a last attempt for a girl and clearly came out male. And you know, they dealt with it like adults and loved their children either way. *shrugs*

It's scary to think what sort of environment these kinds of kids grow up in--either being forever hated for being the wrong sex or having their brothers killed because that's how much mom values boys. I mean, imagine being a boy in that case, frankly, and knowing mom was so put off by boys she'd rather have them aborted than have to live with another under her roof.