What the Bleep/ The Secret

[Slytovhand]

Ok - it's not a fratch, so probably shouldn't be here, but anyways, it does fall into the religion topic....

Has anyone seen either or both of these movies, and if so, your thoughts on it/them?

I notice that there are a few different belief systems that have shown up on this forum, and I wonder if any who follow them have seen either/both movies, how it relates to those beliefs.

I am a pagan, and they fit in quite nicely with my system of belief.

I can see how easily they can fit into Christian, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, and other religions - if 'allowed' to.

But how do you as believers see them?


Slyt

[Sylvia727]

I've seen part of The Secret, maybe a ten minute clip. Could have been selective editing, but I think it can be summed as "If you think nice things, nice things will happen to you. If you think bad things, bad things will happen to you."

That mentality baffles me. Bad things happen to good people all the time. My sperm donor was a domestic abuser before my mom wised up and kicked him out. Does anyone really think that I got the shit kicked out of me because my eight-year-old self was thinking bad thoughts? For that matter, did I get good grades because I was thinking good thoughts, or because I was working hard?

If this is not the argument behind The Secret, then ignore what I just said. But while I think attitude has a profound effect on your results, it's because your attitude affects your actions, which affect your consequences. The universe has too many individual willpowers and conflicting factors in it to arrive at a concerted result. The universe doesn't give a rodent's rump about my individual will and actions, because I am a tiny and insignificant factor.

In case my belief system is relevant to this discussion, I'm agnostic. If there is a higher power, it doesn't interfere with us, and we should find morality here on earth.

[Pedersen]

Sylvia727, I've not seen The Secret, but from what you've said, I can take a small guess as to what the secret is.

If I'm right, they're not saying think good thoughts and good things happen. At least, not just that.

They're talking about focusing the will, which is distinctly different from just "thinking good thoughts". It's about altering your actions, and your perception of reality.

It's rather strange to explain, but it comes down to this: You have to believe that what you want has already come to pass, you're just not aware of it. And you have to believe it with every fiber of your being. And, what's more, you have to believe it more than the people who don't believe it.

I don't know if it's real or not, I really don't. But I do know that I've seen some things that make me believe it's possible. It's at least worth opening your mind to.

[Amethyst Hunter]

It's rather strange to explain, but it comes down to this: You have to believe that what you want has already come to pass, you're just not aware of it. And you have to believe it with every fiber of your being. And, what's more, you have to believe it more than the people who don't believe it.


In a very twisted way, this DOES make sense. It's the basis for the mindset behind every extremist and nutjob faction that exists around the globe.

[Slytovhand]

Given it's a film of a couple of hours, ten minutes would be a very selective clip!

I admit (and hopefully they do as well) there's a lot of crap in it, and build up and all (Hollywood sensationalising), but the main message definitely takes over 10 minutes to get stuck into your head.

They didn't go into an area they could have - that of 'spirit' or 'soul' (perhaps because a few of the presenters are Christians of one ilk or another), but that's the take I have on it. And that being the case, it does go beyond merely "If you think good thoughts, good things will happen to you". It is closer to what Pederson was saying, but obviously, there is much more to it than that.


AH - yes, that is in some way how it can end up - but with one major difference. The extremists and nutjobs that you refer to push to make it happen. The lesson taught in The Secret is that the universe will bring it to you. Pushing is more likely to push it away. But.. like fire, it all comes down to how you use it - intentionally or unintentionally.


Slyvia - yes - definitely, we need to find morality in ourselves and not look for a 'higher' reason for it. But.. how is it that abuse people keep finding themselves in abusive relationships? And therefore, abusers find people 'willing' to be abused? The cycle needs to get broken somewhere - and that is a conscious decision. And, after the decision is made (inside the person), somehow they don't come in contact with abusers any more.. they just don't seem to be part of their universe.

As for the good grades - of course it's the effort put in. Without the effort, nothing is likely to happen. It's not just the 'good thoughts' but also the actions and thought patterns that go with the actions - and those are the 'good thoughts'. "If I study hard, I will succeed. I am studying hard, thus I succeed". Of course, if you are thinking to yourself "I don't understand any of this" - then you won't... until "Oh - now I get it".

Which reminds me - there is not much talk of 'higher powers' in the films... interestingly enough... only a theory on how the universe actually works.

[Pedersen]

It's not just the 'good thoughts' but also the actions and thought patterns that go with the actions - and those are the 'good thoughts'. "If I study hard, I will succeed. I am studying hard, thus I succeed". Of course, if you are thinking to yourself "I don't understand any of this" - then you won't... until "Oh - now I get it".

In that same vein, a simple modification to the thought process is a major component. "I don't understand any of this yet." That one little word holds more power than most anybody gives it credit for.

If you don't understand something yet, you are saying that you will at some undefined future point. That point may be in 5 seconds, or 5 years, but you will understand it at some point.

Another key point: Giving the universe a deadline doesn't work.

Look, even though this will sound like an absolute crock: What the secret amounts to is the same thing that practitioners of magic have done for centuries. People who debunk magic point out "Well, I did all of the steps required by the spell, waited 5 minutes, and nothing happened." Unfortunately, the debunkers missed out on two very key elements:

1. Belief. You have to believe that it will work.
2. Time. There is no way of knowing how long it will take to happen.

No, you won't be producing fireballs from your fingertips and putting entire towns into smoldering ruins. But... Something about this is true. I don't know what the boundaries are. I don't know how much you can do, and how much is just coincidence.

I do know there's some truth to it.

[Norton]

I can believe it.

I guess this can apply to a few people I've known, but for simplicity's sake I'll use my ex-roomie as an example. For a while, I thought that she just had really bad luck. It seemed like every time life started to go well for her, something terrible would happen and screw everything up. Her car broke down often, she got sick a lot, she lost a few jobs, she was always struggling to make ends meet, she had various personal problems among friends and family.

After a few years of seeing this, I couldn't help but feel as if all the bad luck was not a coincedence, but rather caused by my roommate. She was a masochist in several ways, and I think that mindset of wanting to be punished manifested in her day-to-day life.


Another example is myself. I'm noticeably overweight. In my late teens and very early 20's, I had the mindset that I was fat and no one could possibly find me attractive. I could barely even look at myself in the mirror. Guess who had a lot of problems getting a date?
Fast-forward a few years later. I'm still the same shape as I was back then, but I've had no problems with men in the past few years. I attribute that to a change in my attitude. Now I smile at myself when I look in the mirror. I carry myself with more confidence. I believe I'm attractive, and how I feel about myself seems to affect how others see me. The way I look hasn't changed, only the way I think and feel.

[repsac]

When you really boil down all they're saying it's two things. Wishful thinking and karma.

[Machero]

Everything is about perception. Our reality is what we make of it after we leave our parents home.

I wasn't abused, but I was always hurt. It's tough being the oldest of four, and never stacking up or being as important as the other three. Usually the middle child is the forgotten one, but I was the oldest. Granted, it's not physical abuse, but it doesn't feel good, especially when you become aware of it. But I digress.

Your reality is what you make it. If you call yourself a fat pig, you will be a fat pig. If you call yourself beautiful, you will be beautiful.



Fast-forward a few years later. I'm still the same shape as I was back then, but I've had no problems with men in the past few years. I attribute that to a change in my attitude. Now I smile at myself when I look in the mirror. I carry myself with more confidence. I believe I'm attractive, and how I feel about myself seems to affect how others see me. The way I look hasn't changed, only the way I think and feel.

Body language is intuitive. People read it without even knowing. If your body language is confident, people notice. Once Norton started acting with more confidence, she was getting more dates. Good for you btw :)

Prime example, I was sick this week. I'm a tech at a big box. People argued with me more because I was feeling lousy and my body language was lousy. But same situation when I am well, different results.

It's easy to let society getchya down. It's easy to compare yourself to somebody else, and feel bad in the process. It's easy to compare yourself to someone and feel good as well. It's part of the human condition.

Changing your perception is hard to do. But anything worthwhile doing is always hard, because the payoff is great!

BTW Roman Catholic turned Agnostic.

[powerboy]

If you have the mindset that something bad will happen, then something bad will happen. If you have the mindset that something great will happen, then yeah, something great will happen. Life truly is what you make of it. Back in school, I used to think that no girl will ever like me and what to be with me. Then one day in my senior year, I realized that I was thinking bad the whole time. And I made myself be unattractive and what not. I changed. I am more confident then I ever was. I am attractive to a hell of a lot of women. I think positive about everything. Again, you just need to have the right frame of mind.

[Flyndaran]

If you have the mindset that something bad will happen, then something bad will happen. If you have the mindset that something great will happen, then yeah, something great will happen. Life truly is what you make of it. Back in school, I used to think that no girl will ever like me and what to be with me. Then one day in my senior year, I realized that I was thinking bad the whole time. And I made myself be unattractive and what not. I changed. I am more confident then I ever was. I am attractive to a hell of a lot of women. I think positive about everything. Again, you just need to have the right frame of mind.

No offense to you personally,... but that is such a giant steaming pile of bullsh*t!

Bad stuff happens no matter what you think. Good stuff can happen too. Your, my, and everyone else's thoughts don't mean squat to the universe.

[AFPheonix]

It depends entirely on what bad thing we're talking about. Now, a meteor falling from the sky or getting hit by a drunk driver may not be helped by any amount of positive attitude we can muster. However, going into an important job interview with a more confident attitude, well put together appearance and a decently worded resume can net you some results.

Furthermore, how you respond to bad events makes a difference as well. Sitting and crying into your milk does not do you or anyone else any good. Figuring out how to do the best you can with what you have makes you more resourceful and better equipped to survive later.

[Slytovhand]

No offense to you personally,... but that is such a giant steaming pile of bullsh*t!

Bad stuff happens no matter what you think. Good stuff can happen too. Your, my, and everyone else's thoughts don't mean squat to the universe.

Actually, Flyn, it's just as valid a belief as going to a church and praying to some form of God is going to see you in Heaven in the afterlife... both are beliefs. When you don't have that belief, it's easy to say that it's a l"giant steaming pile of bullsh*t".

As to how the universe actually works... who's to say... other than those who get results from acting (thinking) a certain way. If I say I can change my car keys into a red rose with merely a thought, and then it happens, whether you choose to believe that or not becomes irrelevant (in the same way that if Creationists believe in a 6000 year old earth, that's completely irrelevant to the planet...)

Slyt

[friendofjimmyk]

Well, I see now that this was already brought up in the religion thread. I don't agree that it should be here...it's not religious...to me, it's more pop culture or new age.

I just don't understand why anyone could see anything wrong with thinking positively and believing in what you want. That's the jist of the secret to me...visualize it, believe it, achieve it. Furthermore, be grateful for what you do obtain.

[Flyndaran]

Bullsnot to all this wishful thinking.
I had an enormous amount of "good luck" as a child despite depression and temper problems. If ever thoughts could effect outcome, then I should have been picked on. But I never had any bullies, altercations, etc. for all my bad thoughts.

Luck doesn't exist. A single human life is too short and slapped by far too many hard to examine and transient forces for logical statistical normalcy to apply.

[Gerrinson]

Bullsnot to all this wishful thinking.
I had an enormous amount of "good luck" as a child despite depression and temper problems. If ever thoughts could effect outcome, then I should have been picked on. But I never had any bullies, altercations, etc. for all my bad thoughts.

I would have to agree. When I was younger I was cheerful, hopeful, always thought things would work out for the best, yadda, yadda, yadda. I got picked on, beat up, etc. all the time.

It is life experience that has beaten the cynic and pessimist into me. I still hope for the best, but I plan for the worst. In the end, I'm far better at dealing with life because of it.

As far as the Secret goes, here's a copy of what I posted over on CS:

Right, so if you want something you really really focus on it but you have to take steps to get what you want...and if you get it, it's because of this 'source' or 'secret' and not because you took steps to get what you want. If you don't get it, it's because you didn't properly attune your mind. Sorry, but sounds like window dressing for a religious cult to me.

A different example, if you will: If you pray (and I mean REALLY pray, deep in your heart/gut/soul want this prayer to come to true) to my ugly ass curtains and take steps to get what you want, you will either get what you want (because my ugly ass curtains are pleased with your prayers) or you won't get what you want (because you aren't good enough, didn't pray hard enough, <insert reason you are a failure>.) So, there you go, the secret to life is to pray to my ugly ass curtains.

I honestly don't see the difference except that my curtains are tangible and this 'source' is not. It sounds more like very basic self hypnosis combined with the common sense suggestion that you get off your butt and work towards your goals. But I'm skeptical like that.

So, yeah, there you go.

[Flyndaran]

Well, I see now that this was already brought up in the religion thread. I don't agree that it should be here...it's not religious...to me, it's more pop culture or new age.
....

That's a value judgement. Respect demands that we treat all beliefs with the same value no matter how absurd they seem to us. I may not like how all the rules of sanity change just because someone uses the word religion. But I don't get to make the rules of language and society.