The Great Porn Debate

[blas87]

My little brother meeting Ron Jeremy, and attending the Great Porn Debate 2008 (where Ron Jeremy and a pastor duked it out) inspired me to start a thread on here about....what else? PORN!

So what do you think? Is it disgusting? Is it normal? Is it healthy? Is it unhealthy? Does it help couples? Does it destroy them? Does it disrespect women? Does it promote cheating?

Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with adults watching porn, whether alone or with their partner. Or hell, my girlfriends and I watching it for fun. As long as it does not become an addiction or lead to cheating, I feel it's totally normal and healthy. I think nowadays with porn, stars are tested and more and more condom use is seen on videos, which is great.....just as EVERY porn advises in the beginning credits: This video is for entertainment purposes and intended for consenting adults (blah bah blah, etc etc.....if I quote it word for word it might scare you guys).

[AFPheonix]

There are some porn clips out there that are degrading to the people involved (just have to go to efukt.com to find a few examples).
There are illegal clips running around with children or animals involved that can't give their consent.
But otherwise, I don't really have a problem with it. Actually that ET one cracks me right up.

[the_std]

Yep, as long as it's between consenting adults, it's all gravy, baby!

[Dreamstalker]

Ditto. I have no problem with most of the legal stuff (some of the weirder fetishes squick me a bit, but what can ya do?). I don't see a problem with it and would go so far as to say, if porn causes such an issue in a relationship, I don't think the porn is the problem.

There's a common theme in hentai manga for drawing females to look much younger than they are, possibly even may be seen as underage by some. Is that pedophilia as some people claim? What about CGI? (to both the above questions, if there is no real person being exploited then can it truly be seen as exploitation?).

[Norton]

So what do you think?

I'll answer your questions individually. (Note I am only referring to pornography that features consenting adults. I do not tolerate abuse of children or animals.)

Q. Is it disgusting?

A. That depends on individual taste. I may find coprophilia gross, while others are turned on by it. Some people may even find seeing regular coitus in action disgusting. If you meant all pornography in general, then no, I don't think it's disgusting.

Q. Is it normal?

A. People have been watching eachother fuck since before motion pictures were even a concept. I'd say it's quite normal to want to watch others engaging in sexual activity.

Q. Is it healthy?

A. It can be. For someone who was never properly taught about sex, watching some porno before the big night can help them at least learn the proper actions.
Sexual frustration can be a powerful and detrimental force on some people (particularly teenagers). Watching porn can release sexual tension safely without the risks of sex with a partner.

Q. Is it unhealthy?

A. It can be. Again it depends on the individual watching it. Someone may immerse themselves in porn that focuses on hurting/degrading someone, and may not think about needing the consent of that person which could lead to problems when it comes to sex with a partner. Some people have addictive personalities, and watching porn may consume their lives. Some people may get a warped sense of how their partner should look/act. Basically, porn holds similiar dangers to T.V. Some people have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy, and allow entertainment to consume them.

Q. Does it help couples?

A. Some couples, yes. If a couple has grown bored with their sex life, porn can possibly spice it up. For some couples just watching a dirty movie together is enough to rekindle their passion. For others, they may get some new ideas for the bedroom from the film. It's one more chance to salvage the sex life of a current relationship rather than looking for excitement without the other partner.


Q. Does it destroy them?

A. I don't think so. Excessive viewing of porn may be the last straw in a relationship, but I think the problems often go much deeper than the actual watching of porno. If one half of the couple is watching porn excessively, the problem is likely a deep-seated issue in the relationship, while the porn is a distraction, or an escape. I think that more often than not, giving up watching porn will not fix a broken relationship.

Q. Does it disrespect women?

Some of it does, some of it doesn't. Some porn is all about women degrading men. Some people actually like being degraded, while others are just happy to perfom sex acts on camera. As long as no one is being forced into acting in a porno or is being filmed without their knowledge, then no one is disrespected. Sure maybe that actress isn't thrilled about getting cum in her eye, but she takes it as part of her job. Sure, I hate calling deadbeat assholes "sir", but it's what I'm paid to do.

Q. Does it promote cheating?

A. I don't think so. I mentioned before that sometimes porno can be healthy in a relationship. If someone goes out and cheats on their partner, I find "porno made me do it" to be a poor excuse. Some people may watch porn and become dissatisfied with the looks/actions of their partner, but that's another case of reality vs fantasy. To me, there is no excuse for cheating - either fix the relationship, or end it and pursue whoever you wish.

[Puckishone]

In a perfect world I'd like to see women and men sell their brains rather than their bodies, but since it's not that perfect world, I think the guidelines mentioned above are fine. IMO it only becomes a problem if it becomes a replacement for human interaction. Sure, it's exciting to watch sometimes (that is, when you're not making fun of it ;) ) but all watching and no participation leads to a warped perspective on real sex. I've known men and women who think that what you see in porn (and I mean the professionally-produced stuff, not Ho of the Week online or similar) is what people really look like and how sex is supposed to be all the time. Bleached bums, wall-to-wall Brazilians and orgasms by wire make for good porn but don't factor in too much IRL. ;)

[Seshat]

Presuming that all involved are consenting, mentally healthy adults with reasonable levels of emotional maturity, and the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality, porn is just fine.

Note all the above disclaimers.

I'll even go far enough to say that, when viewed by mentally healthy adults who can distinguish fantasy from reality, porn is okay even when it involves drawn or CGI children or animals, or fantasy non-consent (but with genuine consent from any real actors).

But the disclaimers are important. There are obsessive people. There are people who can't or won't distinguish fantasy from reality. There are people who would see a fantasy sex-with-animals scene and want to re-create it with them in a starring role and some poor puppy ... well, let's stop there.

So until our mental health care system is better funded and staffed, porn -can- be a trigger for problems. Not a cause, but a trigger.

Otherwise? Go for it. Make all the (ethically made) porn you can, and enjoy it all you like.

[anriana]

In general porn is good.


I am well aware that there is porn out there that does not follow these stereotypes, but the majority of popular porn seems to consist of peroxide blonde women with breast implants orgasming over and over from vaginal intercourse with men with ten inch penises.


If the culture I lived in (Southern American) was more open sexually and cunnilingus wasn't considered a dirty word, the naked human body wasn't considered shameful, and porn and sexuality in general weren't considered sinful, dirty things that needed to be hidden, I would have no issues with porn at all, but I know too many people who gained their base knowledge of sex from porn. I think porn can be a great facet of a healthy sexuality, but too often it becomes the only facet and that is not healthy.

[Ree]

I'll even go far enough to say that, when viewed by mentally healthy adults who can distinguish fantasy from reality, porn is okay even when it involves drawn or CGI children or animals, or fantasy non-consent (but with genuine consent from any real actors).I'm sorry, but I personally find that disgusting, and I have to wonder why a "healthy" adult would want to view something like that, or how they could find any entertainment value in it. In my opinion, if they do, they aren't healthy adults.

[the_std]

Ree, I am a healthy adult, and I find those kinds of things entertaining, because I can tell the difference between fantasy and reality. I can imagine lots of things I'd like to do, or like to have, that I know can't happen. That doesn't make me disconnected or unhealthy, thank you.

[Ree]

That doesn't change the fact that it repulses me that you or anyone else would find it entertaining.

I am not talking about pornography as a whole, only those things I quoted and highlighted in bold.

It doesn't matter one little bit to me whether those who do find it entertaining can tell the difference between fact and fantasy. I still cannot fathom how it could be entertaining, if, deep down there wasn't a part of the person who is being turned on by it. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if the person has a healthy grasp on reality and knows it's only posed, imaginary or animated characters, or staged situations. I cannot accept the entertainment value of it.

I am not passing judgment on anyone's character. I am stating my opinion.

[Melxb]

For me, there really isn't a debate. I think porn, with adults, is a-ok. Although I'm not inclined to certain fetishes, as long as adults are consenting I don't think there is anything wrong with them either.

Confession--I enjoy watching porn BY MYSELF. I'm a healthy, single woman. I don't think I am weird or deviant. I like Terra Patrick the best. I like redtube.com. If this makes me wrong...then I don't wanna be right!

Then again, I also think that prostitution should be legalized, but that's probably best kept to another thread. ;)

[ThePhoneGoddess]

As an aside to Ree's opinion, I have always wondered something about animated porn myself. I had a roommate for a long time who was really into anime and manga porn, so I experienced quite a bit of it. Much of it seems to feature female (and sometimes male) characters who look really, really young. They often wear schoolgirl outfits and pigtails and have high young voices, but they are portrayed---in a weird, undefinable way---as adults. Are they supposed to represent adults who resemble children, or children acting like adults? It always confuses me.

[Seshat]

It doesn't matter one little bit to me whether those who do find it entertaining can tell the difference between fact and fantasy. I still cannot fathom how it could be entertaining, if, deep down there wasn't a part of the person who is being turned on by it. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if the person has a healthy grasp on reality and knows it's only posed, imaginary or animated characters, or staged situations. I cannot accept the entertainment value of it.

There are three major reasons I know of, but there may be others.

The first is that taboo-breaking itself is exciting to some people. It doesn't matter what the taboo is, just the idea of taboo-breaking creates an excitement. For many of those people, the act of taboo-breaking is unthinkable. They lose all their excitement just approaching it.

These are the sort of people who may fantasise about having sex in public, but get embarassed if their bra strap shows in reality. Having the fantasy of a really powerful taboo being broken can turn them on intensely - but there's no danger of them actually doing it.

(However, there are people for whom the act of taboo-breaking is also powerful. The more stupid of these end up with police records for some sort of sex crime. The smarter ones stick with mild or harmless taboos and are discreet about it.)

The second applies to the fantasy non-consent. Some people feel ashamed of their sexuality, and can only really relax into it if they're telling themselves 'it's not their fault'. So the fantasy of being forced into it is important to them. Yes, this one is psychologically unhealthy.

The third is rare, and I've encountered only one person who admitted to it. There are people who are miswired, and for whom the primary attraction is to something or someone who cannot give consent. The one I knew kept himself under strict control and was in regular consultation with his psych. He didn't volunteer whether he used drawn/CGI porn, and I didn't ask. But I can see how it might be a tool to manage the condition.

Needless to say, these people should be under psychological or psychiatric care to help them manage the condition without anyone - including them - being hurt by it.

[Ree]

Example 1 - Fair enough. It's the taboo breaking thing. Normal healthy adults only stimulated by the "idea" of it and won't act on it. I am still scratching my head over someone who is thrilled by the idea of breaking taboos.
Not my cup of tea, and I will probably never get the thrill of that type of thing, but whatever.

Example 2 - You admit it's psychologically unhealthy, so that one backs up my confusion that a normal healthy adult would be turned on by something like that.

Example 3 - Once again, not a normal healthy adult enjoying an illusion, as you have referred to them as "miswired".

I think you helped my case more so than backing up your own.

[Boozy]

The second applies to the fantasy non-consent. Some people feel ashamed of their sexuality, and can only really relax into it if they're telling themselves 'it's not their fault'

Fantasy rape isn't something I'm into, but I can understand the appeal. I don't think its about being ashamed, necessarily.

I think some of it goes back to those really base instincts still lurking about in our hind brains, the ones that tell us that men are supposed to overpower the woman and drag her back to the cave. Its about power. Powerful men are attractive to women, and men feel sexier when they feel powerful. Its a bit twisted, and goes a step too far for me personally, but I don't think rape fantasy is necessarily unhealthy.

Illustrated child porn or CGI child porn is always unhealthy, in my mind.

[Seshat]

I am still scratching my head over someone who is thrilled by the idea of breaking taboos.
Not my cup of tea, and I will probably never get the thrill of that type of thing, but whatever.

I'll never get the thrill of bungee jumping. Different people, different wiring.

I think you helped my case more so than backing up your own.

I don't think I was making any case, myself. But yeah - two of the groups in my sample set aren't fully mentally healthy.

Its about power.

There's a major sexual-fetish subgroup which is all about power and power exchange.

[Rapscallion]

I keep reading this thread title as "The Porn is Great Debate". So, what was it you were saying about unhealthy minds?

Rapscallion

[BlaqueKatt]

Are they supposed to represent adults who resemble children, or children acting like adults? It always confuses me.


Well the disclaimers always say everyone portrayed in this anime are not minors and are not under the age of 18. So I'd say young looking adults. Also you have to understand that the culture in some areas where these animes come from, grown women are encouraged to act like children-some to the point of carrying teddy bears around at age 30 or older, or wearing fake bandages to seem "injured" and helpless. It has to do with the "protector/provider" role.

[Seshat]

I think you helped my case more so than backing up your own.

Having slept on it - I agree. Those who like the thrill of taboo-breaking can use other taboos. Those for whom the accoutrements of childhood (pigtails, mary-jane shoes, etc) are a fetish can enjoy them on adults.

I think you've won me over with my own arguments, Ree.

[Boozy]

I think you've won me over with my own arguments, Ree.

Ree's a crafty one, that way.

All part of her evil plan for world domination. :D

[Dreamstalker]

Also you have to understand that the culture in some areas where these animes come from, grown women are encouraged to act like children-some to the point of carrying teddy bears around at age 30 or older, or wearing fake bandages to seem "injured" and helpless. It has to do with the "protector/provider" role.
That's what I remember reading about it. An e-commerce site based in Japan where I get most of my snacky things and collectibles also sells porn. I don't find it a big deal myself; that stuff is hidden from the kiddies. There are some models who look quite young in facial features/cosplay, but are clearly not under 18; the site bears a disclaimer as such.

[Sylvia727]

Part of that problem is that Asian women are generally shorter and smaller than Caucasian or African women. So to a person of another race, an Asian woman resembles a child or an adolescent. In 8th grade, I was in a middle school play, and a Taiwanese woman brought us authentic Taiwanese dresses to wear as costumes. I wore mine as a skirt, I kid you not. On the den mother, it came down to the floor. Hitched low on my hips, it stopped just above my ankles. With that great of a size difference, how else is the back brain supposed to interpret these women?

[blas87]

Asian women also age a lot slower than women of other races, especially white people. I'm actually very jealous of that.

[Boozy]

Asian women also age a lot slower than women of other races, especially white people. I'm actually very jealous of that.

I don't understand what you mean by "slower". Could you explain?

[DesignFox]

I don't understand what you mean by "slower". Could you explain?

Probably that Asian women generally look about a decade or two younger than they really are.

I've seen this first hand- one woman I went to college with was from Japan. At orientation, we all thought she was fresh out of high school. We found out she was 30 years old.

Of all the people I've ever met, and all the different ethnic backgrounds of people I've dealt with- nobody looks as young as those of Asian descent.

I wish I could look 18 at age 30...but, oh well.

[Boozy]

Probably that Asian women generally look about a decade or two younger than they really are.

Oh, right. :o I don't know why that wouldn't have made sense to me the first time I read it.

[rahmota]

Well to jump in here I'll go with the comment that what two or more consenting adults do in their personal time is their own business and if they enjoy it then so be it. As logn as its all consenting adults. Children real or virtual I just dont go for nor do I agree with or condone. Otherkinks including animals welllll what you do in you home is your business.

As for the asian culture and stuff. Pretty much anything I'd say is already said.

[blas87]

Sorry for the misunderstanding Boozy, but yes that's what I meant. They never look their age. It's NOT fair.

*goes off to pout and fantasize about the day face lifts and Botox will be available to the average working class citizen*

[Greenday]

*goes off to pout and fantasize about the day face lifts and Botox will be available to the average working class citizen*

I learned all about Botox in my microbiology class. It's an...interesting bacteria.

[DesignFox]

Botox paralyzes your face...um...yick...

Oh and isn't it something that can kill you? I mean, obviously not if it's injected into your face...but isn't it a toxin? :confused:

Oh right...the topic...

I say, if you like porn. Go for it. To each their own.

Someone was talking about Hentai...I watched some out of curiosity with a group of people at college. I hope I'm not insulting anyone by saying that that shit is fucked up and I don't know who in their right mind is turned on by it cause it's that weird...

And yea, a lot of the characters look remarkably young... and some of them are portrayed as being in school... It's pretty questionable.

I say as long as no one is being harmed and there is no non-consent going on...well... whatever.

[Sylvia727]

Otherkinks including animals welllll what you do in you home is your business.

I don't condone animal abuse or cruelty in any form. This site (http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty/bestiality.php) has some information on beastiality and animal abusers; the most shocking to me was the fact that some species of animals are killed by the act itself, while most species have a high risk of injuries stemming from beastiality. And that's just physical symptoms. No animal can give informed consent. I can't see anyway that beastiality would not be animal abuse. The above site also links beastiality to violence and abuse of humans.

Drawn or CGI beastiality I don't have a problem with, especially as it overlaps with the furry fandom. But just as violent porn can trigger an unstable mind, so could beastiality porn trigger an unstable mind. There's no one all-encompassing way for society to keep triggers away from the unstable. Aside from porn distributers being discreet about their sales, to keep it away from children, I don't see them having much recourse or even obligation. It comes down to our legal system to punish offenders after the fact.

[rahmota]

Botox is a poison. Its also called botulisim or food poisoning...So uh yeah not exactly somethign I'd want to be sticking in my body. Also the way it works is it freezes the muscles of the face in a paralytic siezure basically (greenday can probably tell you a lot more details about it) or somethign like that. Not good as I think It looks sick. Sort of the leona helmsly g force face effect for those that overdo it.....

Anyhow back to speakign of porn (though a picture of a botox junkie on the cover of a porn might be enough to spoil the mood....)

Sylvia727:All I can say to you is *shrug* For some of the stuff its only animals and so what is all I can? A lady shoves a gerbil up her joybox okay. Thats a bit beyond kinnky in my book but if shes an adult and someone is stupid enough to pay 20 bucks or whatever the video cost to see ehr do it and they do it in private and dont do anything else stupid or bad against the law then so what. Aint my problem. And if the gerbil buys it oh well one less gerbil. Its not like they're on the endangered species list or anything.

And no an animal cant give consent its an animal. Its hardwired to respond a certain way and only a certain way. How do you think people get the semen for artificial insemination? I've helped work a neighbors cattle farm during implantation time. Trust me you do that the last thing on your mind is kinky fun. One of my friends had his shoulder dislocated during collection. And thats while using all kinds of safety equipment. Bestiality involving some animals may wind up with the person injured and the animal very confused but not much else.
And if the lady doing it was an adult and sober and decided to dance with a bull and she gets hurt then oh damn too bad joe thats her problem. If she lives she might decide to change kinks.

There's no one all-encompassing way for society to keep triggers away from the unstable. No there isnt. And society shouldnt bother trying to police the thoughts and actions of individuals to that degree anyhow. Heck goign into borders for those who are truely messed up could find somethign to trigger them. It all depends on the individuals and if there is laws against criminal behaviors such as rape and child molestation then good clean porn dont need to be hidden away.

[Sylvia727]

Sylvia727:All I can say to you is *shrug* For some of the stuff its only animals and so what is all I can? A lady shoves a gerbil up her joybox okay. Thats a bit beyond kinnky in my book but if shes an adult and someone is stupid enough to pay 20 bucks or whatever the video cost to see ehr do it and they do it in private and dont do anything else stupid or bad against the law then so what. Aint my problem. And if the gerbil buys it oh well one less gerbil. Its not like they're on the endangered species list or anything.

Could you please explain to me where precisely on the body the "joybox" is located?

It's not okay to kill helpless animals. It's not okay to hurt helpless animals. It is your problem, because it's your society's problem. Read up on the problems associated with beastiality. The site (http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty/bestiality.php) I linked to earlier is a good start. To list just a few dangers of sex with animals; it hurts or kills the animals involved (which is illegal and immoral), it's linked with sadism, it's used to abuse the humans involved, and it's used to perpetuate harmful sexual stereotypes, including sexism and racism.

Coming back to the moral issue of beastiality, it's not acceptable to hurt animals. You may think "it's just one dead gerbil", but that animal did not have to die. Animals feel pain, and as moral beings it is our responsibility not to spread pain.

How do you think people get the semen for artificial insemination? I've helped work a neighbors cattle farm during implantation time. Trust me you do that the last thing on your mind is kinky fun.

That's hardly the same thing. Firstly, as you yourself said, it's not "kinky fun". Secondly, you're doing this to help the animal or its species. Thirdly, you're taking reasonable precautions to help the animal. In fact, it sounds like you need great precautions to protect yourself. You can't compare masturbating a bull for artificial insemination to masturbating a bull for selfish pleasure.

Bestiality involving some animals may wind up with the person injured and the animal very confused but not much else.

Maybe. Maybe not. Without knowing the animal's state of mind, how can you know? That's like arguing that a man can't have been raped because he was erect or he orgasmed. The body's responses have little or nothing to do with the fact of rape, or cruelty.

And if the lady doing it was an adult and sober and decided to dance with a bull and she gets hurt then oh damn too bad joe thats her problem. If she lives she might decide to change kinks.

I'm really not worried about people who get hurt while hurting other people or things. Call me callous, I just can't work up the energy.

No there isnt. And society shouldnt bother trying to police the thoughts and actions of individuals to that degree anyhow. Heck goign into borders for those who are truely messed up could find somethign to trigger them. It all depends on the individuals and if there is laws against criminal behaviors such as rape and child molestation then good clean porn dont need to be hidden away.

Agreed, with reservations. I don't like the thought of a police state or a nanny state, but for those who are truly in need of psychiatric help, there must be a way to keep most triggers away from them. Right now that responsibility is on the individual. In the future, we may come up with a way to protect the general population from privacy invasions and at the same time protect disturbed individuals from their triggers.

[rahmota]

Could you please explain to me where precisely on the body the "joybox" is located?
Yes I can. Its the vagina you know.


It's not okay to kill helpless animals. It's not okay to hurt helpless animals. It is your problem, because it's your society's problem. Society has a lot bigger problems than the warm fuzzy brigade wanting to end "animal cruelty". Yes I agree that anythign that hurts or interferes with the productivity or usefulness of an animal is a bad thing. But thats it.

Coming back to the moral issue of beastiality, it's not acceptable to hurt animals. Not for just the fun of it on the surface no I guess. Making an animal so it cannot work or cannot be used or useful after its death is morally wrong. Getting jiggy with it while sick and disgusting is a gray area I dont particularly care about as I dont see it as my personal problem. And as for my societies problems my society can go take a flying frak on this problem as there are many other more important thigns to be resolved first like making sure everyhuman is not mistreated or abused first.
I dunno if a person getting jiggy with an animal hurts the animal more than the human gets hurt or not. Animals are hardwired to respond a certain way to certain things. They dont feel the way humans do. They dont think the way humans do. Thats what makes them animals and us humans. We are above them in the sentience scale for a reason you know and it aint just opposable thumbs.

You can't compare masturbating a bull for artificial insemination to masturbating a bull for selfish pleasure.
*shrug* I guess. From the bulls perspective its no different. The only difference is the human factor.

Without knowing the animal's state of mind, how can you know?They are an animal how much of a state of mind can they have? I've grown up on a farm with cattle and chickens and pigs and goats and believe me, I wonder if someof these creatures even have a mind sometimes. Horses I believe do possess a crude degree of mental ability but still not even close to a normal human level.

I'm really not worried about people who get hurt while hurting other people or things. Call me callous, I just can't work up the energy.
No I'll agree with you on this one. Someone hurts themselves by being a moron or a bully or doing harmful thigns to another I'm gonna be like nelson on simpsons and walk away. So if you're callous I'm in that boat too.

but for those who are truly in need of psychiatric help, there must be a way to keep most triggers away from them.
Sad to say but the day we as a country can do that and respect the rights and freedoms of people is the day i tap dance to the moon.

[AFPheonix]

Think of it this way. People who treat animals in sadistic ways tend to go on and treat other people in sadistic ways. So human welfare and animal welfare are not really 2 separate ideals. Cracking down on beastiality is not the same as being a crazy PETA person who throws paint on someone wearing a fur coat.

[Dreamstalker]

Someone was talking about Hentai...I watched some out of curiosity with a group of people at college. I hope I'm not insulting anyone by saying that that shit is fucked up and I don't know who in their right mind is turned on by it cause it's that weird...
I would tend to agree. The ex once said "But you like japanese stuff, this is japanese, so you should like it"...um, no. Obviously-contrived tentacle porn? No thanks. Now there is some mild hentai I actually like, but the fetish-y stuff is just...ew.
Animals are hardwired to respond a certain way to certain things.
So are humans.
They dont feel the way humans do. They dont think the way humans do. Thats what makes them animals and us humans. We are above them in the sentience scale for a reason you know and it aint just opposable thumbs.
What defines sentience exactly? The human standard of intelligence isn't the only thing out there.

[Sylvia727]

Yes I can. Its the vagina you know.

Then why didn't you say vagina? I have difficulty taking an argument with immature and juvenile synonyms seriously.

Society has a lot bigger problems than the warm fuzzy brigade wanting to end "animal cruelty".

Sure. But that doesn't diminish the severity of the problem, nor does it make animal cruelty justifiable. There's no reason different members of society can't tackle different problems, and no member of society should be allowed to perpetuate a problem just because it's minor.

Making an animal so it cannot work or cannot be used or useful after its death is morally wrong. Getting jiggy with it while sick and disgusting is a gray area I dont particularly care about as I dont see it as my personal problem.

I think these two examples are for different reasons, or rather that the first example is wrong for two reasons and the second is wrong for one. Hurting an animal is wrong, whether the injury comes from sexual abuse or by purely physical abuse. Rendering an animal useless is merely wasteful.

And as for my societies problems my society can go take a flying frak on this problem as there are many other more important thigns to be resolved first like making sure everyhuman is not mistreated or abused first.

Yes, there are things that should have a higher priority. But there's no reason different people can't address different priorities. Even if animal cruelty was given a one percent priority, there'd be 3 million people in the united states alone who could be helping. Just because it's not the most important doesn't mean it's not important.

I dunno if a person getting jiggy with an animal hurts the animal more than the human gets hurt or not. <snip> We are above them in the sentience scale for a reason you know and it aint just opposable thumbs.

They can feel pain. That is a fact. Many forms of beastiality cause physical pain or even death to the animal. That is also a fact. This is an opinion: as humans are moral beings, as we are at the top of sentience scale, and as we are the stewards of the earth, we have a moral obligation to avoid causing pain wherever possible.

*shrug* I guess. From the bulls perspective its no different. The only difference is the human factor.

A significance difference is the human factor. This would fall under 'needlessly' causing pain, as there is a need for artifical insemination. I don't know enough about bulls and other large mammals to know whether mounting a human would cause the animal pain, either physically or psychologically. But I do know, from my research, that a human mounting a farmyard animal can cause internal injuries and the act itself can be painful to the animal. Beastiality with smaller animals will almost certainly cause pain, injury, and death.

They are an animal how much of a state of mind can they have?

More and more research is being done on this question. I know they have enough mind to feel pain. Cats and dogs have enough intelligence to learn commands and overcome obstacles. My cousin has a helping hand dog, and she (the dog) knows over 50 commands, including "bring me object", "help me walk", and "get Mommy", along with conditional learning like when to cross traffic at a crosswalk, and the difference between a seizure and four-year-old-with-disabilities rough loving. That dog is smarter than some people I know; why is it okay to hurt her?

Sad to say but the day we as a country can do that and respect the rights and freedoms of people is the day i tap dance to the moon.

Maybe, yes. I think there's got to be a way to do this; whether we can find it, implement it, and protect it from corruption in the near future is hard to say. I think we will find it eventually.

[rahmota]

Think of it this way. People who treat animals in sadistic ways tend to go on and treat other people in sadistic ways. So human welfare and animal welfare are not really 2 separate ideals. Cracking down on beastiality is not the same as being a crazy PETA person who throws paint on someone wearing a fur coat.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen people that would kick a dog for wagging its tail too loud and be the kindest thing to kids and vice versa. there isnt always a correlation between the two. At least enough that I've seen.

So are humans.What defines sentience exactly? The human standard of intelligence isn't the only thing out there. Humans are hardwired in some regards but we also have the capacity to rise above that programming and choose our own paths. Animals do not. It is the capacity to reason and choose a behavior that seperates us humans from the lower animals. Not tools, not language (althouhg there is a difference between the works of william shaekespeare and the grunts and clicks of even a dolphin or whale) not even the opposable thumb. It is our minds and our thinking capacity and capability to rise to the challenges and adapt to new things. Our imagination and ability to deal in the theoretical that makes humans above mere animals. "What a piece of work is man, how noble in reason!"

Then why didn't you say vagina? I have difficulty taking an argument with immature and juvenile synonyms seriously.
Because I didnt. As for what you do or do not take seriously thats your choice. Not mine.

As for the rest of the discussion here we are drifitng away from porn and into animal "rights" (which IMO they have as many or as few as their owners give them) and animal cruelty discussion.

Beastilaity is sick and disgustign I'll not disagree with that. that it is at the very least potentially harmful and dangerous to all involved human or animal I'll even agree with. That it is up into the abuse and cruelty region I'll shrug my shoulders and say that on a case by case situational consideration then maybe yeah. maybe nah.

Either way you are right humans as the stewards of earth should be responsible and caring. unfortunately as the highest thing on the food chain due to our big brains we have a bit of an ego as a species. Deal with that and the rest can fall into place.

[AFPheonix]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen people that would kick a dog for wagging its tail too loud and be the kindest thing to kids and vice versa. there isnt always a correlation between the two. At least enough that I've seen.


Wait, what? There's a well documented correlation between animal abuse and sociopathic behavior against humans. You may see people in public be nice to their kids, but I know and you know that at home it may be a whole different story. Hell, there was an elder in our church who seriously physically abused his kids. I remember because mom was always telling us, "why aren't you as well behaved as so-and-so's children?" Why? Because we weren't scared shitless of getting the crap kicked out of us as soon as we were out of public view.

[Seshat]

I created a thread for animal welfare debating, to let people join in who aren't interested in the porn debate and have skipped this thread.

Follow this link to the Great Animal Welfare Debate (http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?p=7452#post7452).

[rahmota]

There's a well documented correlation between animal abuse and sociopathic behavior against humans.*shrug* maybe. Yeah theres the old wives tale that if a man'll kick a dog hes more n likely gonna kick a kid or be mean to someone.

The point I was trying to make was that there is animal care, animal abuse, and animal cruelty. Kicking a dog for yapping is in the abuse range, tying it up by its tail is cruelty and bestiality is not really in any of these three categories IMO. TO be honest I dont care enough if a person wants to eff a horse to get worked up one way or the other. As long as 1) I dont gotta see it, and 2) that person dont wann try and do anythign with me or mine involving it. I dont care. They are a consenting human adult, the other is just an animal. The only "crime" I might see is if they didnt own the animal they are effing. Then it might come down to tampering with or damaging someone elses property. As thats all an animal is, property. You cannot rape an animal. It is property that would be like sayign you could rape a toaster.

Beastilaity while sick and disgusting is not somethign I care enough about to want to deal with. At worst it is a property crime. At best its a rather twisted way of getting your rocks off, at least in my own subjective opinion which is all porn comes down to anyhow.

My friend thats a homosexual finds regular hetero porn to be quite disgusting and sick and twisted but has utterly no problem watchign two guys buttfuck each other. Thats one of the biggest issues about what is and is not porn. It mainly all comes down to subjective views and values.

[Sylvia727]

Back on topic:

I think all porn manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure that no living thing is injured or law is broken in their porn shots. If they violate this, every individual responsible (including bystanders like camera operators who didn't get help for the victims) should be punished at least as severely as private citizens who violate this law. So in a porn shot with an underage actress, the hiring director and anyone else who knew should be convicted of statutory rape.

There is a correlation between violent porn and violent rape, but I don't know the specifics. Essentially, porn can act as a trigger for an already disturbed individual. As I've said previously, I don't see any perfect way to balance the privacy of the general population with the protection of the disturbed from their triggers. The best way I can see is to make it illegal, or a violation of parole, for a violent criminal to own violent porn. The responsibility is then on the disturbed individual to avoid his triggers, with the state enforcing penalties if he fails.

[Seshat]

I think all porn manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure that no living thing is injured or law is broken in their porn shots.

And what if they're fine by the laws of country/state A (where the porn is made), but not by the laws of country/state B (where it is sold)?

[rahmota]

And what if they're fine by the laws of country/state A (where the porn is made), but not by the laws of country/state B (where it is sold)?
And thats where you get into the situation we have in the US delaign with stuff from Japan or other adult materials.

Like I bet you didnt know but its illegal to sell vibrators/dildos in some states here in the US but not others. I think its still illegal to even own one in the state of georgia. So bringing one into there fr a state thats illegal may be contraband...

Rather sad.

Same way with some hentai and euro porn where the age of consent is different. IRC britain allows topless females to be published at age 17 whiel stateside anythign under 18 is verboten.

So what happens is that it becomes illegal to sell it here. And if your bring it in or otherwise possess it you can have some serious to minor criminal charges brought.

[Rapscallion]

Regardign Georgia, they tend to name them as 'cake novelties' or back massagers etc.

The UK age of consent is sixteen for sex, and the same for topless modelling. One newspaper famed for putting a topless girl on its third page (two or three do this) did so on the girl's birthday. Not too many seconds later, people realised that they were looking at a picture of a topless girl when the photo was taken when she was only fifteen.

Yeah, they got some flack over that one.

Rapscallion

[Sylvia727]

And what if they're fine by the laws of country/state A (where the porn is made), but not by the laws of country/state B (where it is sold)?

It should be legal in both areas. If kiddie porn is illegal in my area, I don't want to see it sold here, even if the age of consent in Xland is 12. Et cetera. When it runs into problems in one area, such as dildoes being illegal in Georgia, the proper solution is to make dildoes legal in Georgia, not allow manufacturers to peddle wares regardless of local laws.

[Dreamstalker]

I think in TX it's legal to own a dildo, but illegal to sell them (wtf?). I never could see the point of the state-by-state laws for that kind of thing (will online stores that are not based in State X just refuse to ship there?).

The website I mentioned will not stock or even consider material in which any performer/actor is under 18 (at least that's the case with the US-targeted site; not sure of other destination countries). Here, it's legal to possess, make or sell porn, yet you can't (or at least aren't supposed to) send it through the mail system. Weird.

[rahmota]

Raps: ahh thanks I knew it was younger than stateside just didnt remember which.

And as for the vibrators and such yeah I know and love how they are "personal massage devices" and such...Kinda sad and silly that they have to go to such work arounds to avoid a stupid stigma.

And I can imagine they did get a bit of flack. Stateside they might have got the rope (figuratively at least.)

Sylvia: yeah one set of rules for each and every state would be a wonderful thing on that sort of thing. It should fall under the interstate commerce laws but oh well. Too much bad feelings on it for too many people.

[tropicsgoddess]

I'm not into porn, but hey each to their own. To me, it's okay to look at porn, as long as it's not completely supplanting sex in a relationship (if the people in the relationship are sexually active that is). The only kind of porn I'm not okay with at all in any aspect is the animal and kiddie porn.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

*shrug* maybe. Yeah theres the old wives tale that if a man'll kick a dog hes more n likely gonna kick a kid or be mean to someone.


I just wanted to interject here, Rahmota, that this is NOT an old wives tale. Psychiatrists who specialize in serial killers have stated and published for years what they consider the 'triad' of symptoms that the majority of serial killers display as children: setting fires, wetting the bed, and torturing animals.

This information is not linked only to serial killers.

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.

Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children. Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.

[rahmota]

TPG: *shrug* Maybe. I dunno. People are more complex than some people like to think. Then again I dont exactly trust psychologists and such much either. Even though they have been crammed down my throat. They all seem too eager to think that there is somethign wrwong with everyone even if there isnt. But thats a rant for another thread.

[fireheart17]

OK, again I'll go with my own thousand and one questions.

Q: Is it disgusting?
A: I'll admit, the first time I saw a cumshot I almost threw up. (this was when I was younger and accidentally stumbled onto it) On the other hand, what one may find disgusting might be a turn-on for another.

Q: does it degrade women?
A: To answer that you'd have to ask: Does gay porn degrade men? Does shemale porn degrade transsexuals?

Q: is it wrong?
A: If it involves children and animals yes.

Q: Does it provide the "wrong" images?
A: In this case I would say yes. Mostly because I have watched a bit of porn and what I have seen of it compared to my sexual experiences (or lack thereof....) made me think. While a guy might get turned on by watching a woman give a man fellatio until he ejaculates all over her face, he may not want the girl to perform it the exact same way as the video. THere's also the misconception that a big penis equals a better lover, that men only want sex and so forth. These are the things that disturb me.

[HowMayIHelpMe?]

Porn is fine.