Would you pledge your virginity to your father? [Archive]

Myra

01-23-2007, 08:02 PM

This is disturbing to me for two reasons. One is rather silly, but Jessica Simpson did one of these promise deals to her dad, and her dad creeps me the hell out. So this creeps me out by the fact that it reminds me of Papa Joe Simpson. Ugh.

And more seriously, this is the other part that creeps me out. The dad is supposed to "pledge to protect" his daughter's virginity. Hello old-fashioned! If a girl wants to make some sort of virgin pledge, that's her right. But the dad "protecting" her purity just reminds me of the redneck with the shotgun.

The fact that fathers of girls as young as four or five have brought their daughters is weird to me. At five, I had NO IDEA what sex was! They claimed it was more for the daddy/daughter bonding than anything else. Well then take her to the movies! Looking for an excuse to dress up? Go to a restaurant! It just looks creepy go take a four-year-old to a "chastity ball."

Eep. Don't get me wrong, everyone's personal life is their own. If a girl wants to wait until she's married to have sex, fantastic! I just don't think she should have to broadcast it to her father or anyone else if she doesn't want to. That's just one chick's opinion, though.

rahmota

01-23-2007, 10:51 PM

I'll agree that this is rather wierd and creepy. Somehow I'm not surprised by this though. The evanelicals like to try and pull the old holier than thou publicity stunt quite frequently.Didnt they ever hear the parable about pride goeth before the all?.

Wonder how many of those virginity pledges actually last though?

Ps. What's so bad about being old fashioned enough to take an interest in your child's life? I'll agree this sort of thing is goign a bit too far with the whole issue but a parent should still at least be able to talk with their child about this, at an appropriate age and level.

Oh and I am a redneck and i do plan on being the redneck dad with the shotgun :p Although my daughter will probably kick their butts if they get out of line on her own anyhow.

AFPheonix

01-24-2007, 09:07 PM

I'm just happy that there's a lot of dads out there willing to stay involved in their daughter's lives and outwardly showing that they care for them.
Maybe it's because I grew up in an environment more like this, so it's not particularly shocking to me. (My father didn't do any of this stuff with me or my sisters, but that's fine). While mentally healthy for the girls in some ways, in that they are less likely to have sex before they're mentally and emotionally mature enough for it, it does kind of keep them in this weird naive state.
As the father of the 7 year old daughter mentioned, the ball for him was less about keeping her from having sex than it was a bonding experience. I also suspect it was more for his benefit, to pledge to stay involved in her life and love her no matter what. I frankly was more disturbed by the 25 year old woman in the opening who apparently is still a virgin. Did she not go to college or something?
The other thing that is interesting to me is the lack of opportunities for a mother/son dance in the same vein. That strikes me as a tad sexist. Shouldn't the same amount of energy be invested in males treating women well?

At the church I used to attend before I got booted, there were several couples who made their first kiss their wedding kiss. A lot of people lauded that, much like they would laud the girls who, at high school graduation, would state their intent to get married and have babies. Not a whole lot of mention for girls like me with intentions to go study science. (As is was, church members either tended to get glassy eyed when I'd tell them what classes I was taking, or would attempt to enter a Creation/Evolution debate with me....sigh....)

rahmota

01-28-2007, 01:15 AM

yeah I'm happy to see dad's staying involved with their children. I'm trying to do so with mine. The way the church has it set up is a bit odd. And now that you mention it a mother son version would be a ood idea as well. Unless they actually are going for the old fashioned father protects the daughter and the daughter obeys the father midevil style. Either that or they feel that the female drives are more dangerous than the males.;)

Ryu

01-28-2007, 11:22 AM

While I dont think its necessary for a girl to pledge it to her father instead of keeping it private, I also support the idea
In addition, it keeps the tradition of courting alive because anyone who wants to be involved in a relationship with her has to get her dads permission, which when it is possible I think is a great idea
I know most people wont agree with me but thats how I see it

BusBus

01-31-2007, 05:44 AM

Personally, I don't there is anything wrong with saving your virginity for marriage. Granted, that was not the path that I chose, but it is one that I do have respect for. The whole chastity ball thing kinda weirds me out, though.

Rubystars

02-27-2007, 03:30 PM

While I agree with virginity before marriage as a moral principle, that event is way too creepy! It implies that the daughter is somehow the property of her father and has to get his permission to explore her own sexuality. That's an awfully sexist thing in my opinion.

squall

02-27-2007, 05:39 PM

Virginity until marriage.....way too much trouble if you ask me.

Ryu

02-27-2007, 06:29 PM

would you say the same thing if there was a similar program for guys to do the same thing?

blas87

02-27-2007, 07:50 PM

I always say you're a fool to buy the clothes without trying them on first...gotta try out the merchandise to make sure it works for you!

Sorry, maybe laughter wasn't what everyone needed right now. It's a tough subject. Ultimately, the daughter herself should make that desicision, and rely on both of her parents (or parent if one is deceased or not in the picture) for guidance and support with such a mature decision.

I think forcing to pledge virginity to your father would be like my mother trying to hide me under the sex rock. No sex till you're 40. Look what happened? No success.

DesignFox

02-28-2007, 03:02 AM

To me, the point of having such events should be more about staying involved with your daughter.

I don't think the event should hinge on the idea of controlling her sexuality. While everyone is entitled to believe what they want regarding abstinence and what have you, I think you are setting your kids up for future embarrassment or failure by having them pledge chastity in front of their fathers and entire congregation. Frankly, unless your child is endangering herself, and more-so when she turns 18, it is none of your business whether or not she is having sex; it certainly is not anyone else's business- ever. That is something that is private- only public if the person chooses to share.

Also, I find it disturbing that half of these kids are too young to really understand what is going on, or what they are even signing on to. If you are an adult, and you wish to pledge to the entire population on the planet that you will remain a virgin until the day you DIE that is within your rights. But forcing a 4 year old to take a chastity oath, when she doesn't even know what sex IS? That sits the wrong way with me.

Let's make it about Daddy's looking out for their little girls, rather than worrying about who she may or may not sleep with and then I'll give it the thumbs up. Educating and protecting your children is precisely what needs doing. Offering advice and solutions and helping your children make wise decisions on their own is the way they will learn best.

Forcing your choices onto your chlidren and sheltering them from the realities of the world-- That is how we end up with abortions, babies in garbage cans and scared little girls out on the streets.

Involved Daddies who educate their daughters rather than make the decisions for them, often don't have those problems arise because their girls will feel comfortable talking to them and seeking help from them. And likely, they'll make more informed decisions about sex to begin with- or even choose the abstinence path on their own! I know people who have done it- without having to announce it to the world.

And I DO think their should be similar bonding events for mothers and their sons. All children need their parent's presence and guidance.

My other beef with these chastity balls is the use of the term "pure" to describe virginity. What the hell is that supposed to mean? A woman is now "dirty" because she is sexually active? That's just fucking damaging. Let's get over this ancient bullshit. Sex is part of life. Deal with it. People who have sex aren't any more or less "pure" than those who do not.

Rubystars

02-28-2007, 11:52 AM

would you say the same thing if there was a similar program for guys to do the same thing?

Once someone is an adult, then it's up to them to decide what to do as far as sexuality goes, whether they're male or female.

rahmota

03-12-2007, 03:59 AM

I'll say this again: What CONSENTING ADULTS do with their lives and their bodies and with whom they do it is their business and their business only.

A parents duty is to teach, protect and prepare their children for becoming adults to the best of their ability. This whole virginity pledge thing is a bit wonky at best and downright wierd at worst. But if it helps a parent be involved in their child's life and is not used as an excuse to smother and dominate their child then it can't do much more harm than many other things the church and people in general do. Or if it does then the child will have to deal with that when they become and adult and either stand or fall on their own.

Luna

03-23-2007, 02:40 AM

I can understand wanting to raise your children to be good and not take risks that could get them into trouble. I can understand that certain religions frown upon having sex before marriage and that is fine for them. But to force it on children who don't know what sex even is yet? that's creepy.

I know a woman that brags about how she was a virgin until she got married (27 yrs old). Good for her. But she won't let it go, and brags about it in a way that attempts to make everyone else look like they are shit on the bottom of her shoe - every chance she gets. Maybe she's yakking it up to make up for all the lost time she wasted. I for one, waited until I met the right guy, was 19 - and I married him. But I didn't waste any years before marriage that's for sure! :D

As long as no one is yelling at me about how to run my life - like the above girl - it doesn't bother me.

Banrion

03-28-2007, 10:54 PM

In response to the original question NO! And he never wanted me to. Both my parents were very open talking to us about sex, and as I got older sometime it was TMI, but neither of my parents ever made it taboo. When I was about 15 and my brother 13, my mother put a "family size" box of condoms in the medicine cabinet, opened the carboard box, and said "Just in case you ever need them. They are already open, so I won't have to know."

I didn't have sex until I was about 16 closer to 17 and I had been dating the guy for 4 years at that point. No, I didn't end up marrying him, but I don't regret it. I am actually a serial monogamist. I have been in 3 relationships, all lasting 4+ years and I am only 25. This current relationship will now last me the rest of my life, and I won't be that 45 year old woman wondering what I am missing.

SongsOfDragons

04-15-2007, 05:04 PM

What a lovely way to spend your wedding night. The man, inexperienced, probably swollen, doing nothing to please himself and probably hurting the woman; and she, not even knowing what bit is what, bleeding all over the sheets...wake up next morning in pain and grumpy.

Idiots. Virginity ain't some special certificate. It...doesn't...matter... Wake up and get with the rest of the universe.

Ryu

04-15-2007, 05:23 PM

way to be polite and understanding of peoples faiths and beliefs there...
how does it hurt you if some people choose to wait until their wedding night?

SongsOfDragons

04-15-2007, 08:18 PM

powerboy

08-26-2007, 09:29 PM

If I have a daughter, then I am going to be a Redneck Father. You touch my future daughter in any way, that I do not approve. You deal with me.

Rapscallion

08-26-2007, 09:45 PM

Considering where a future daughter would be right now, that would involve ... dealing with you...

Rapscallion

CancelMyService

08-27-2007, 05:24 AM

Those "promise your daddy (and God, but mainly your daddy) you won't have sex" events bury the needle on my personal creep-the-hell-out-meter. The ones where they have what looks like a wedding ceremony between daddy and daughter are just too weird for words. Yeah, no one looks forward to their kids becoming sexual active, but there should be limits in your involvment in such matters? Why are some fathers so obsessed with the status of their daughter's hoo-has? There's no way to frame that to where it doesn't come off all sorts of EW.

Also, being raised in an environment where anything sexual is repressed usually doesn't end well. This isn't me being disrespectful of anyone's faith, it's my personal experience with my family. You teach your kids that sex is this big huge ordeal that should be put off as long as possible, and you're either going to end up with a pregnant teen or a 50 year old schoolmarm who's never even clicked her own mouse because she hasn't found that special man yet.

Boozy

08-27-2007, 04:17 PM

Rubystars already touched on the sexist thing, but I'd like to put in my two cents.

Pledging one's virginity to either one of your parents is creepy. But what I find especially heinous is the implication that it's usually pledged to the father. This smacks of the worst kind of archaic sexist thinking - that a woman's body belongs to a man, whether it be her father or her husband.

With that said, I wouldn't think any more highly of this practice if girls were asked to swear their virginity to their mothers, either. Girls need to be taught that they are in control of their bodies and what happens to them, no one else. Girls shouldn't be taught that their sexual choices are anyone's responsibility but their own.

protege

08-27-2007, 07:28 PM

You teach your kids that sex is this big huge ordeal that should be put off as long as possible, and you're either going to end up with a pregnant teen or a 50 year old schoolmarm who's never even clicked her own mouse because she hasn't found that special man yet.

I second that. I have an uncle who is of the "oh noes, sex is evil" types, and let's just leave it at that. This is the same guy who got upset because his daughters wanted to watch Top Gun with me at Grandma's one night. He didn't say anything until the bar scene, when some of the characters discuss getting laid. At that point, he went *batshit* and made us change the channel. Did I mention that his oldest daughter isn't married, and is having a kid? Oh, and his son just ran out on his wife and 3 kids? He has a *serious* problem with both of those things...so I'm sure lots of sleepless nights are involved ;)

squall

08-27-2007, 08:29 PM

It doesn't. I can't see sense in their actions, so I leave them to their owwies the next morning and get on with life.

I'm a very blunt person. Usually I will say what I want without dumbing it down.

Same here. In this politically correct culture, you cannot tell the truth without offending somebody. Sometimes it just needs to be said.

Seshat

09-06-2007, 08:15 PM

Both my parents were very open talking to us about sex, and as I got older sometime it was TMI, but neither of my parents ever made it taboo. When I was about 15 and my brother 13, my mother put a "family size" box of condoms in the medicine cabinet, opened the carboard box, and said "Just in case you ever need them. They are already open, so I won't have to know."

That's what I think is better than most of the alternatives. I think another good thing would be for the parent to take the kid to the family doctor, and sign, in front of the kid, a thing saying 'if Kid ever needs or wants medical attention they're too embarassed to talk to me about, I'll pay for whatever they need, and authorise whatever treatment you and Kid agree is necessary'.

I'm strongly in favour of sex education, but in addition to the basic physical stuff, I think sexuality education is also necessary. When I hit the age of experimentation, I knew all sorts of details about gonads and reproductive function: but I didn't know it FELT GOOD.
And I was totally unprepared for the idea that it can become a psychological/emotional bonding thing.

Instead of vague hints about sex being simultaneously dirty and quasi-religious, why on earth not just tell kids that sex can be anything from mildly feel-good to a mind-blowingly intense bonding experience; and that the chances of it being the latter are way, way better when you're with a long-term partner who knows you and cares about you, and who you know and care about.

And that the chances of it being a traumatic, horrible experience are very, very good if you're with someone who you don't really want touching you: so if you mean no, SAY IT.

I dunno. I just think we're really weird in how we treat sex and sexuality, and that kids would be best off if we actually gave them the information and resources they need to handle it well.

As for 'pledging one's virginity to one's parent': ewwww. It'd be a lot less creepy to pledge it to one's future spouse. One's parent is for teaching about sex in the theoretical and abstract, not .. to be promised one's sexuality.

Greenday

09-07-2007, 02:14 AM

Personally, my belief is if you are going to lose your virginity, make sure it's with someone special. Not some random person while drunk at a party or with someone well known for putting out. But to go so far as to pledge your virginity to your parents? I can't even fathom that.

I honestly don't feel your virginity is as huge a thing as some people make it. Life as we know it won't end because you had sex before marriage. If two consenting people want to have some fun, there's nothing wrong with that, especially if they are being safe about it.

HowMayIHelpMe?

10-23-2008, 01:29 AM

This is so gross. A dady going to a prom with her father, and the whole thing being some kind of a demonstration of her purity?

When I was a high school boy, I was not looking for a girl with "purity". And what's more, I was definitely wanting to get rid of my own virginity. Such an albatross, that. And had there been at the time some kind of equally gross-ass phenomenon of young guys pledging to their mothers to "remain chaste", I would have thrown myself bodily right through the nearest plate-glass window before I said yes to anything like that.

AdminAssistant

10-23-2008, 02:51 AM

Erm. Ew.

I talked about allll of that kind of stuff with my Mom. And when I'd been dating someone for 4 months, and I was 16, she just asked me, "So, have you two had sex yet?" I said yes and she called the doctor to put me on birth control. That was pretty much the end of the discussion, beyond, "Let's not tell Dad" (because he would've freaked the hell out)

And not only do girls need to learn to say no when they feel uncomfortable, boys need to learn that when a girl says 'no' to BACK OFF. And if they don't back off, girls need to know that a fistful of car keys to the crotch is a perfectly acceptable response.

Having sex is a huge ordeal emotionally (at least for girls, I can't speak for guys - since I have a uterus and all). Women DO bond with people they have sex with. It's how we're biologically programmed. It isn't something to be taken lightly - and Sex in the City is a big, fat, dirty LIE.

Sylvia727

10-23-2008, 05:28 AM

Talk about your Electra complexes (the father-daughter equivalent of the Oedipus complex). I find it terrifying, for all the reasons mentioned above, but particularly because this practice uses peer pressure to reinforce in the girl's mind that she and her sexuality belong to her father. And any way that he might choose to abuse this ownership, either physically or emotionally, she is less likely to resist because if everyone else is doing it, then she must be the one who has trouble thinking straight. Make no mistake, this can be an emotional ownership too.

Where does this lead? Having pledged her "purity" to her father, can she not marry if daddy dearest doesn't approve of her groom? Is her "flower" a physical possession the rights to which she has now surrendered in exchange for...what? Daddy's unconditional love and approval? He's just proven to her that she is only worthwhile if she is pure, and that making decisions Daddy doesn't agree with would make her unclean.

And while I do find it telling that there are no parallel proms for mothers and sons, the undertones of violence, control, and incest would be no less prevalent in those.

AFPheonix

10-23-2008, 07:00 AM

Whelp, here's to hoping a lot of these girls get the opportunity to go to a secular college somewhere far from home. Unfortunately, that kind of kid always has some energy to get out of their system after being repressed for so long. Yay for some fratboy at the first party she goes to. Not that Daddy has to know, unless he does a hymen inspection.....

anriana

10-23-2008, 09:02 AM

AdminAssistant

10-23-2008, 12:51 PM

Or maybe your experience with sex represents your and some other women's experiences and Sex in the City represents a different group of women's experiences?

Perhaps. But I'm not crazy about this idea that women bed-hopping just like "all men" do (another lie) is somehow "empowering". Um, no. I have several friends who've tried to live that way, and they all ended up really depressed and sleeping with MORE men to try to relieve the depression. I tried to have a 'friends with benefits' relationship and put myself through hell - because I really fell for the guy.

And before anyone yells at me - I don't agree with the double-standard regarding men who sleep around vs. women who sleep around. If a woman can have a lot of casual sex without forming any emotional bonds, then more power to her. I just don't think it's really possible.

We were just talking about Sex in the City in class during a discussion of Helene Cixous and feminism and how there has been such a giant step backwards in television and film regarding positive female role models. But that's a different discussion.

Boozy

10-23-2008, 01:25 PM

If a woman can have a lot of casual sex without forming any emotional bonds, then more power to her. I just don't think it's really possible.

It's entirely possible, and entirely normal and healthy.

Not all of a woman's sexual experiences will lead to emotional attachment. Just as not every sexual experience a man has is cold and detached. To say differently is just pigeonholing people, and that's inaccurate and unfair.

I'm with you on the "Sex and the City" thing. I have no problem with the casual sex. It's the vacuous materialism that annoyed me about that show. (I freely admit that I could only stomach a few episodes, so I'm not an expert.)

MystyGlyttyr

10-23-2008, 03:02 PM

I find this no more stupid and/or annoying than any other reason people choose to have a "ball" or whatever other event.

That being said, I wouldn't have any issue attending one of these sorts of things with my father. If I, as a consenting adult, choose to allow him to "protect" my virginity (though he and I both know that I'm the far more capable of the two of us in that regard), that's between him and me. There's no creep factor to that. I actually kind of see it as a sort of honor for him, with me effectively saying "You're my dad and I accept that you always want to protect me, so I'll allow you to do that".

And I don't necessarily see anything wrong with a dad bringing a daughter who's too young to understand the chastity vow, if he's just bringing her so that they can dress up and she can play princess for a little while.

I guess it just doesn't seem so weird to me. The only thing that strikes me is the apparent lack of understanding on the parts of the girls in the story as to what exactly goes into sex outside marriage. I don't personally feel that I approve of it, as I simply don't see why it's so important to so many people, but I realize that it IS, and I can accept that. Some of these girls seem to even lack the ability to reach that realization, as though they've been brought up in the "all sex is rape" camp or something.

(Disclaimer, all this is being said by an asexual person so my understandings of the issues might be off kilter. It wouldn't be the first time I missed the point entirely.)

AdminAssistant

10-23-2008, 06:06 PM

I'm with you on the "Sex and the City" thing. I have no problem with the casual sex. It's the vacuous materialism that annoyed me about that show. (I freely admit that I could only stomach a few episodes, so I'm not an expert.)

Yes, this we can agree on. I hate the whole, "Well, I'm a girl so I must love SHOES!! Lots and lots of expensive shoes with insanely high heels!" Er, no. It's rare that I'll spend more than $20-30 on a pair of shoes and pretty much all of my shoes are functional. I have black and brown boots, black and brown heels, black and brown loafers, tennis shoes (you get the idea). Stuff I wear over and over.

Not all women adore shopping and fashion and pink girly drinks. *bleah*

Sylvia727

10-23-2008, 08:01 PM

If I, as a consenting adult, choose to allow him to "protect" my virginity (though he and I both know that I'm the far more capable of the two of us in that regard), that's between him and me.

The problem I have with it is the girls' lack of understanding. They cannot give informed consent if they have been raised in a household that suppressed accurate information about sex and sexual relationships. The article mentioned that most (or many, I don't feel like rereading all seven pages) of the girls in attendence were adolescents, right around the age when they start menstrating. That's a difficult age, and few adolescents are mature enough to make binding decisions about the rest of their life. Without access to the full story, how can they possibly make decisions that accurately reflect their own will?

Shangri-laschild

10-27-2008, 03:15 PM

My worry is that this is something that should be done when the girls know what's going on. I worry about the girls that go with their dads before they even know what's going on and sign the paper. What happens if later on they decide they don't want to wait? What if their dad's decide to try to hold them to what they signed despite them not understanding any of it? I guess I could understand bringing the younger girls if it was just a bonding time and allowed them to be in what the parents thought of as a good crowd. Then, later when they were older, they could come back and actually sign the paper.

Granted the kind of father who did that is probably the kind of father who would do the same even if you hadn't ever signed anything. I don't think a girl should be made to feel like a whore if she decides to have sex before marriage and that's what a lot of religions like this can sometimes do. They push that idea on you and even if you decide that you don't agree, there's always that thought there from years of being pounded into your head.

But there is striking evidence that more than half of teens who take virginity pledges—at, say, rallies or events—go on to have sex within three years, according to findings of the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, the most comprehensive survey of teens ever taken. And 88 percent of the pledgers surveyed end up having sex before marriage. “No pledge can counter the fact that teenagers are, in fact, sexual beings postpuberty,” notes Cary Backenger, a clinical psychotherapist in Appleton, Wisconsin, who works with teens, including several who have taken virginity pledges. “You can’t turn that off.”

Disturbingly, the adolescent health study also found that STD rates were significantly higher in communities with a high proportion of pledgers. “Pledgers are less likely than nonpledgers to use condoms, so if they do have sex it is less safe,” says Peter Bearman, Ph.D., a Columbia University sociologist who helped design the study. For these teens, he believes, it’s a mind game: If you have condoms, you were planning to have sex. If you don’t, sex wasn’t premeditated, which makes it more OK. The study also found that even pledgers who remained virgins were highly likely to have oral and anal sex—risky behavior given that most probably didn’t use condoms to cut their risk.

The kind of mentality that goes into these a lot of times seems to be "teach them not to have sex" alone, instead of teach them all the menthods and give strong notice to the fact that not having sex is the best method.

katie kaboom

10-28-2008, 07:38 PM

In addition, it keeps the tradition of courting alive because anyone who wants to be involved in a relationship with her has to get her dads permission, which when it is possible I think is a great idea

How in the world is that a great idea? I find it to be incredibly demeaning. Why would anyone think it is necessary to get their father's permission to date someone? Are we as women so used to being ordered around by men that we can't even be in a relationship with someone without having our father's permission? I have never in my life heard of a guy needing permission from his mother to have a girlfriend. So why should we have to have our father's permission? That is absolutely a double standard and if there is one thing i can't stand, it's double standards.

katie kaboom

10-28-2008, 07:47 PM

Virginity until marriage.....way too much trouble if you ask me.

It's not even so much that it's too much trouble, it's just a bad idea all around. Let's face it, sex is a pretty big part of marriage. Now if you marry someone without ever having had sex with them, how do you know that that part of the marriage will be satisfying enough to sustain the rest of it?

It's the same as not living with a person before you marry them. How do you find out whether or not you two are compatible in, as well as out of, the bedroom if you don't experience these things together before marriage? I don't know about you guys, but i would much rather find out before marrying someone whether or not we're compatible than wait till after the wedding to find out we can't please each other and can't live together.

I just think there are too many outdated ideas floating around about the whole process of courtship and marriage. A lot of people need to get with the times. We live in a much different world than past generations did. Everything is more complicated...and that includes relationships and everything that surrounds them.

Flyndaran

10-29-2008, 12:27 AM

It's not even so much that it's too much trouble, it's just a bad idea all around. Let's face it, sex is a pretty big part of marriage. Now if you marry someone without ever having had sex with them, how do you know that that part of the marriage will be satisfying enough to sustain the rest of it?
....

While I understand what you meant, your comment hit a little close to home.
I'm on such a high dose of medication, that despite having only one side effect it is still a doozy.
I have almost no sex drive. I have less than 5% of my previous level. The idea that without sex I cannot maintain my 10 year long, this halloween, relationship is scary and fundamentally wrong... at least according to my life partner.
Sex is a nice part of an adult relationship, but it is not, on its own, enough to destroy a REAL stable loving partnership anymore than major weight gains, or disfiguring accidents would.

Norton

10-29-2008, 12:05 PM

It's the same as not living with a person before you marry them. How do you find out whether or not you two are compatible in, as well as out of, the bedroom if you don't experience these things together before marriage? I don't know about you guys, but i would much rather find out before marrying someone whether or not we're compatible than wait till after the wedding to find out we can't please each other and can't live together.

My fiance and I have been living together a few days shy of a year. What really suprised me was when some of his older relatives told me that they think we made the right choice by living together first, and that it was better than how things went in their day. I happen to agree.

My fiance didn't ask my father's permission before he proposed. Dad found out the time as Mom did the next day. My sister was suprised by this. "He's supposed to get Dad's permission first!" she said.

My response was "Why? Dad's not marrying him."

anriana

10-29-2008, 12:08 PM

I would break off an engagement if my partner told me they had asked my father's permission first. I wouldn't want to be with someone who values my father more than me.

katie kaboom

10-29-2008, 12:34 PM

While I understand what you meant, your comment hit a little close to home.

I'm sorry about that, i swear to you that wasn't my intention.

And i will give you credit...you brought up a point i hadn't thought about. So your particular situation would be an exception to the norm and i do apologize for not looking at it from that angle until right now.

But i still maintain that in most cases, sex is a huge part of marriage and committing to someone without knowing how that part of the relationship will work out is only asking for trouble.

katie kaboom

10-29-2008, 12:38 PM

My fiance didn't ask my father's permission before he proposed.

Neither did mine, and quite frankly, if he had, i wouldn't marry him. But my fiance knew how i felt about that long before we were officially engaged. I need no one's permission to accept a marriage proposal...that decision is mine and mine alone.

Boozy

10-29-2008, 01:07 PM

I think sex is a huge part of marriage if the couple thinks it should be.

Otherwise, it's not.

Every couple is different.

Saydrah

10-29-2008, 10:50 PM

While I understand what you meant, your comment hit a little close to home.
I'm on such a high dose of medication, that despite having only one side effect it is still a doozy.
I have almost no sex drive. I have less than 5% of my previous level. The idea that without sex I cannot maintain my 10 year long, this halloween, relationship is scary and fundamentally wrong... at least according to my life partner.
Sex is a nice part of an adult relationship, but it is not, on its own, enough to destroy a REAL stable loving partnership anymore than major weight gains, or disfiguring accidents would.

Yes-- I agree. With one caveat:

If someone medically/physically/emotionally CANNOT satisfy their partner's sexual needs and the rest of the relationship is okay, but the partner with a sex drive doesn't want to live without sex forever, they should be able to go outside the relationship for sex. I don't think it's fair to force someone to choose between sexuality and love. Of course, the exception would be if the relationship began with the understanding there would be no sex or very little sex.

In essence, if the relationship starts out including sex, and one partner ends up happy without it and with no desire to continue having it, but the other partner can't envision either life without the first partner OR life completely without sex--- well, it's like Dan Savage says: If you buy a cow and refuse to milk it, it'll be in pain. And while a cow will just moo forlornly at you, a romantic partner will probably eventually go elsewhere or leave the relationship. So, in certain situations, it makes sense for one person to be able to safely, casually, occasionally fulfill their sexual needs outside the relationship.

Sylvia727

10-30-2008, 04:56 AM

Saydrah, that situation is why we use the term "cheating". If one partner has an extra-marital (or extra-relationshipal) affair, and the other approves or condones the activity, then no cheating has occurred. The nonsexual partner freely gave permission, and was cheated out of nothing. But if one partner has extra-marital sex without the other's permission, the other has been cheated out of that trust and understanding, regardless of his own sexual activity. If a person agrees to be in an exclusive relationship with a nonsexual individual, with the understanding that this relationship will be both nonsexual and exclusive, then they have no justification for cheating on the other person.

Shangri-laschild

10-30-2008, 05:30 PM

anriana

10-30-2008, 05:42 PM

DesignFox

11-02-2008, 03:13 PM

While sex can be an important part, it's not like that person's level of skill in bed will always be at that point. If someone doesn't satisfy you, then teach them instead of throwing your hands up about the whole relationship. It just doesn't make sense to me to throw out a relationship because you aren't a perfect fit in bed at first.

This is a point, as a relationship develops, and you get more in synch with your partner, the dynamics of sex change. The first time isn't always the "best." But each time you are together, it gets better. It's part of the fun of the relationship in my opinion...

There is a lot more to sex than skill level though. What if one person wants kinky sex and the other is completely vanilla? What if one wants sex once per day and the other wants sex once per month?

And yea...this is a good point, too. Everyone is different. And there are some people out there with some....interesting...fetishes... I'd hate to find out on my wedding night that my partner only gets off on something I find completely humiliating...or gross.

And when you care about someone deeply, you really do want to please them...the sex isn't just about your own pleasure.

Flyndaran

11-02-2008, 08:02 PM

This is a point, as a relationship develops, and you get more in synch with your partner, the dynamics of sex change. The first time isn't always the "best." But each time you are together, it gets better. It's part of the fun of the relationship in my opinion...
....

May I be the first to respectfully call, "Bullsnot!"?
Some of the best sex I and my love muffin, ever had was at the very beginning of our 10 year relationship. Yes, I love her more now than I would have previously thought possible and in new ways every day, but sex isn't magical. It is usually two bodies doing biology's dance that can be great with strangers, I hear, and mediocre with the ones you love.

People really are different.
I plan on staying with Tonya past retirement age, and if anyone has the guts to say that our sex will, or should, be better then, than it is now or at the beginnning, I would be quite shocked.

DesignFox

11-02-2008, 08:10 PM

May I be the first to respectfully call, "Bullsnot!"?
Some of the best sex I and my love muffin, ever had was at the very beginning of our 10 year relationship. Yes, I love her more now than I would have previously thought possible and in new ways every day, but sex isn't magical. It is usually two bodies doing biology's dance that can be great with strangers, I hear, and mediocre with the ones you love.

People really are different.
I plan on staying with Tonya past retirement age, and if anyone has the guts to say that our sex will, or should, be better then, than it is now or at the beginnning, I would be quite shocked.

I didn't say it is always bad in the beginning, just that, like any other aspect of a relationship, it can and does get better and grow.... geez.

:rolleyes:

Greenday

11-02-2008, 08:15 PM

Honestly, I don't know about that. I think It's kinda like drinking (I can't believe I'm comparing drinking to sex). At first, it's decent. Then it gets better and better. Then it kinda hits its climax for fun and slowly starts to not be the same. I dunno, maybe it's because I haven't been with someone who has the same limits (or lack of) as I do. But in general, that's just been my experiences.

AFPheonix

11-03-2008, 05:08 AM

It's really dependent on how much effort you're willing to put into it. If you let yourself get stuck in a rut, then yes, sex later in a relationship will suck balls. But if you're willing to try other stuff and really please your partner, then yes, it can be as if not more fulfilling than it was in the beginning.

anriana

11-03-2008, 11:32 AM

I'm in a five year relationship and our sex is better now than it ever has been.

Rapscallion

11-03-2008, 01:18 PM

Back to the topic, I've started to think it would be it would be fair for the sons of said families to pledge their chastity to their mothers. Yes, that would be equality.

Rapscallion

katie kaboom

11-03-2008, 03:06 PM

Back to the topic, I've started to think it would be it would be fair for the sons of said families to pledge their chastity to their mothers. Yes, that would be equality.

Exactly. It's only fair the sons be subjected to the same thing the daughters are.

Although i still maintain that the whole thing is just a messed up idea.

Rapscallion

11-03-2008, 07:04 PM

Just realised that Ryu mentioned this as a concept on the first or second page... Oops!

Rapscallion

Antipsych

11-03-2008, 10:10 PM

Did anyone else almost immediately think of "Footloose?" :D

Gabrielle Proctor

01-13-2009, 08:01 AM

Having sex is a huge ordeal emotionally (at least for girls, I can't speak for guys - since I have a uterus and all). Women DO bond with people they have sex with. It's how we're biologically programmed. It isn't something to be taken lightly - and Sex in the City is a big, fat, dirty LIE.

HUGE ORDEAL? Really? Meh. Not for me. I've slept with men without the slightest intention of getting married to them, or even attached to them. I just enjoyed being with them in the time that we spent together. So, I'm some kind of exception to the programming?

I think that pledging your virginity to your dad is not only weird, but incredibly disgusting. This kind of idea promotes that a woman's virginity is an object that has a price. I know that they have the best intentions, but this just leads to objectification of girls and women.

It basically says, you belong to your father and when you're married you will belong to some other man. I view this as devaluing of your self worth. How is a girl supposed to value who she is when her father/husband owns her?

Speaking about virginity pledges as a whole, here's a quote, and a link:

Abstinence education cynics are pointing to a new study that found teenagers who pledged abstinence are just as likely to have premarital sex as those who do not make the pledge.

http://www.woai.com/content/blogs/headlines/story/Discuss-Study-Questions-Usefulness-of-Abstinence/DI49yGIVgUGFy8YvbbmX0g.cspx

I read in another report that while pledgers and non-pledgers are just as likely to have sex before marriage, pledgers are less likely to use contraception. If anyone wants a link to that, I'll hunt one down. Now it's time for bed.

AFPheonix

01-13-2009, 05:17 PM

Oh, you mean this article? (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/30/virginity.pledges/) It's something like a 10 point difference between the kids who didn't take pledges and use contraception and those who did take pledges and go bareback.

Bonus New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/03/081103fa_fact_talbot) opinion piece.

Evandril

01-13-2009, 08:44 PM

I used to have far more respect for people who 'saved' themselves for marriage, though it was never my style...Until I had a good friend who fell in lust...And HAD to get married so they could fool around (They did wait..and are both stuck in a bad marriage because of it.)

Only a single example, agreed...but it did sour my views on the subject *shrugs*

kiwi

01-13-2009, 11:14 PM

I find it very very creepy

Greenday

01-14-2009, 01:25 AM

Oh, you mean this article? (http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/12/30/virginity.pledges/) It's something like a 10 point difference between the kids who didn't take pledges and use contraception and those who did take pledges and go bareback.

I just wanted to point out something funny I found in that article.

"While teens who take virginity pledges do delay sexual activity until an average age of 21 (compared to about age 17 for the average American teen)..."

How many teenagers are 21?

Slytovhand

01-14-2009, 04:48 AM

Greenday!!!!

You're one of those who makes comments about low sperm counts in cows!!!

:p

:D

Tanasi

01-16-2009, 09:55 PM

How many teenagers are 21?

I'd say the same number that are used to pad the gun deaths stats. The studyers don't say their children demographic contains 25yos.

goldaries13

04-12-2009, 12:49 PM

Honestly, a purity ball and pleging virginity to one's father squicks me out a bit. If my father (redneck, racist SOB) had been alive when I was a teen, though, there's no doubt I probably would have done something similar. But he died when I was 7, so that's a counterfactual right there.

As it stands, I lost my virginity when I was 13, with my then boyfriend. I have no doubt if my father were alive, he'd probably have taken a shotgun to the boys I fooled with in my teen years. He'd also probably have shot my now-husband, but whether because of the sex thing or because my husband is (in my late father's viewpoint) a dirty, dirty foreigner is anybody's guess.

Back on point: purity balls make me shake my head. I like to think I would have resisted, but really. Girls at young ages are taught to please everyone, and that right there is the point of the while thing: eventually the desire to please Mummy and Daddy and be a virgin till marriage and honor the purity vow is going to collide with the desire to please the boyfriend and have dirty, sweaty, unprotected pig sex in the backseat of the boyfriend's car.

For the record, this was never a problem at my house. My mother took me to get birth control when I expressed the desire for it (right around the time I first had sex, about two months prior to it), and with five brothers and two half-brothers around, someone always had condoms I could swipe.

Amethyst Hunter

04-18-2009, 06:27 AM

Girls at young ages are taught to please everyone

Edited for clarity.

After all, only "nice" girls are "good" girls, as far as this culture is still concerned.

So-called purity balls are just flat-out creepy as hell and I really question the mindset of whoever invented them. I'm not convinced that their intentions are entirely "pure," so to speak.

tropicsgoddess

04-23-2009, 09:24 PM

Purity balls and rings are silly to me, but pledging your virginity to your father is incredibly creepy. Saving it until marriage without all this crazy crap is good enough. Then again on the saving it for marriage bit I can't talk since I lost my viriginity at 19 to my my fiance. When I have children, I just want them to use common sense if they're going to have sex and I definitely won't have them do that silly pledging crap either.

fireheart17

04-26-2009, 10:37 AM

I'm with tropics....why do people need to get all elaborate about pledging virginity, at least to their dad?
Me? I'm still a virgin, but I'm saving it until I'm with someone I love for real, not just a drunken night with some random guy. I know it sounds like I'm putting sex on a pedestal so to speak, but bear in mind that I'm 18, the legal age is 17 in my state and I grew up in an area where girls were losing their virginity at the age of 15, some as young as 14 and usually because everybody else was doing it. Not that I'm against those who did make that step early, but as long as you are fully informed about sex, contraception, STI's and pregnancy, then I don't see why not.

Nyoibo

05-23-2009, 06:22 PM

tropicsgoddess

05-24-2009, 12:46 AM

Hell, I'm going to be that kinda redneck daddy, although not with a shotgun, it'll be having a nice quiet chat with the boy in my weapons room. :p

I'm probably going to be like that with my baby sister too.

I don't know about waiting until marriage, but I figure make the first time count and be with someone special.

I can see SO doing that if we have a daughter or two, but imagine that but with a guy that's 6'9" and well over 300lbs (no lie). Now THAT'LL scare the crap out of the boys.

guywithashovel

05-31-2009, 04:34 AM

Back when I was a teen, I went to this Evangelical Church that did something similiar to this. I can't remember what the program was called, but the teens to took part in it would take virginity pledges (promising not to do it until they got married), and after doing that they would get either a ring or some kind of badge to wear around their necks that symbolized their virginity. Once they got married, they would give that ring or badge (whatever it was) to their parents. If they had sex before they got married, they had to give it back to their parents after they had that premarital sex.

I think that was how it went. I DO remember that if the participating teens had premarital sex, they had to give the ring/badge to their parents, thus confessing the act.

Now, I was a pious youth at the time, and even then, I thought that whole thing was pretty creepy. And the creepiest thing about it was that, if I did it, I would have to wear a symbol of my virginity for all the world to see, thus advertising my abstinence. My sex life, or lack thereof, is no one's business but my own.

AFPheonix

05-31-2009, 05:34 PM

I'm actually kind of impressed that your church got the boys to do it, too. Most of the time those True Love Waits things are geared more for girls than boys.

guywithashovel

06-01-2009, 02:58 AM

I'm actually kind of impressed that your church got the boys to do it, too. Most of the time those True Love Waits things are geared more for girls than boys.

Come to think of it, I think it was called True Love Waits. My sister had a Bible called "The True Love Waits Bible," and it was directed towards teens. And I remember that phrase getting tossed aroudn quite a bit, so that may have been the name of the program. There were several teen couples in the youth group, and our leaders tried to get them to take part in it. I didn't have a girlfriend when I was a teen, so they never pushed the issue much on me, though. I think they mentioned it to me a few times, but after they, they didn't pester me about it much.