But *I'm* Not a Criminal!

[crazylegs]

This really bugs me.

People want the police to deal with offences. Except when the police deal with them personally, this story http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/7421097.stm illustrates it perfectly, there are people parking illegally and yet they don't want to be ticketed.

Why get the council to take a vote of no confidence? Its petty and it serves no real purpose. I'm sure if all these lovely people couldn't find somewhere to park they'd be in uproar.

[Greenday]

Oh no! They broke the law! And they got in trouble for it! What is the world coming to?

[protege]

Reminds me of several areas here. These fools bitch about all the crime in their neighborhood, yet also bitch when the cops come in and arrest people...either with a warrant, or while the crime is being committed :rolleyes:

[crazylegs]

Here's another one, chap drops rubbish, doesn't want to pay the fine... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/7424153.stm

[rahmota]

Well just to play devils advocate and remind a balance here there are a lot, A LOT, of stupid laws that innocent people do run afoul of at times. There are situations where the law takes a judge dredd black and white no mercy or gray area attitude when it should'nt. My own case is a fine example. My exstepson assaults my daughter, and when I try to thump him for assaulting my daughter I'm the one who gets arressted when I should have been given the key to the city and an award for being a good father. There are times when the fuzz abuses their power and authority just for the kicks of it or because they can or they get off on the power trip. There are cops out there (among other govt agents) that are nothign more than tin plated dictators with delusions of godhood.

[Greenday]

Yea, but when you park in an illegal spot, or litter right in front of a cop, you really have no right to whine about how you shouldn't get in trouble for so obviously breaking the law.

[rahmota]

Yea, but when you park in an illegal spot, or litter right in front of a cop, you really have no right to whine about how you shouldn't get in trouble for so obviously breaking the law.

This is true assuming that all the person gets is a ticket or a minor talking to. If they get thrown into cuffs or a beat down then they have every right to complain. Anyhow just making my comment to play devils advocate about the big picture and not the particular case examples given.

[Rapscallion]

I don't think we have full information in that article. The area had been used as parking for the last thirty years or something like that, but it doesn't say if the law on that stretch of road recently has changed. If it had changed recently and people were still using it, then I would consider that a grey area of sorts when police are saying that the shopkeeper cannot warn people that they're likely to be ticketed.

I'd need to know more.

Rapscallion

[rahmota]

then I would consider that a grey area of sorts when police are saying that the shopkeeper cannot warn people that they're likely to be ticketed.


I missed that part. If thats the case then those cops definately need a swift kick and sent back for some more sensitivity training about abuse of power and authority coercing shopkeepers into supporting their entrapment of innocent people.

See thats part of the problem there. the laws change and the public servants not carring about the public they are supposed to serve do not make it clear that the laws have changed. Do not give warnings and public information that the law has changed. they care about exhibiting their power over the people, getting that ticket money in and generally strutting around looking tough on crime pushing petty people around while real criminals get to run around scott free.

[Rapscallion]

I should point out that there is a huge perception in the UK - true or otherwise - that many parking restrictions are there to gain income for the local council. Some are obvious traffic hazards that needed work to make safe, but there are some that just make everyone seeing them suspicious. I think Crazylegs would be the best person to comment from the official side on this.

Rapscallion

[crazylegs]

I should point out that there is a huge perception in the UK - true or otherwise - that many parking restrictions are there to gain income for the local council. Some are obvious traffic hazards that needed work to make safe, but there are some that just make everyone seeing them suspicious. I think Crazylegs would be the best person to comment from the official side on this.

Rapscallion

The issue with the parking is that vehicles have been wholy (sp?) obstructing the pavement (to the extent that it is impassable) so that people have to walk around them in the road to get to where they want to go, the offence code is unnecesary obstruction, but basically it means you've parked like an arse and you're in the way of someone else.

The interesting thing about the obstruction offence is that you must have a complainent, If I was on the other side of the road and saw a car totally obstructing the pavement I would be unable to ticket until I received (either directly or via a Phone call from the member of the public) a complaint. This means that there is someone who is continually contacting the Police to complain about the parking there...

The reason why the Sgt had a chat to the shop keeper was because she had gone out and become abusive, not because she was warning her customers. She was also acting in a manner that was obstructive to the PCSO which is an offence under the Police Reform Act 2002 (just as there is an offense to obstruct a Constable)

Just as one final note, the £30 fine that obstruction carries doesn't make any money for the Constabulary at all, every time one is issued there is a net loss to the issuing force.

Hope that clears things up a little.

[crazylegs]

Apologies for the double reply but I wanted to clarify in one post (the one above) and to reply in another (this one) to keep them seperate

This is true assuming that all the person gets is a ticket or a minor talking to. If they get thrown into cuffs or a beat down then they have every right to complain. Anyhow just making my comment to play devils advocate about the big picture and not the particular case examples given.

You're not going to get arrested for a parking ticket. Simple as that. If you were to become abusive there would be offences under the Public Order Act, but you don't need to interact with someone to issue a parking ticket, it can be placed directly on the car rather than handed to the driver. Jobs done.

I don't think we have full information in that article. The area had been used as parking for the last thirty years or something like that, but it doesn't say if the law on that stretch of road recently has changed. If it had changed recently and people were still using it, then I would consider that a grey area of sorts when police are saying that the shopkeeper cannot warn people that they're likely to be ticketed.

I'd need to know more.

Rapscallion

One thing about PCSOs is that they concentrate on areas that are concerning the local community as a whole, it wouldn't suprise me if this is now a local policing priority (set by the local community by a process I won't go into at this moment in time but I can if you want me to later), which is why its being looked at so hard now. The vehicles are parking on the pavement obstructing it, its an offence, it always has been and it will be for the foreseeable future.

I missed that part. If thats the case then those cops definately need a swift kick and sent back for some more sensitivity training about abuse of power and authority coercing shopkeepers into supporting their entrapment of innocent people.

See thats part of the problem there.(1) the laws change and the public servants not carring about the public they are supposed to serve do not make it clear that the laws have changed. Do not give warnings and public information that the law has changed. they care about exhibiting their power over the people, (2) getting that ticket money in and generally strutting around looking tough on crime pushing petty people around (3) while real criminals get to run around scott free.

(numbers added by me so you know which point I'm responding to)

1)The law hasn't changed. The Sgt hasn't spoken to the shopkeeper about warning her customers but with regards to her abusive manner.

2)We make a loss on each ticket so it would make more sense to ignore it if all we were concerned about was the income.

3)Crime is down, there is no escaping that, fewer offence are being committed and more offenders are being brought to justice (as a percentage of crimes commited), PCSOs deal with these 'minor' issues which means the police with their full power range can spend more time dealing with 'more serious' issues.

[protege]

The interesting thing about the obstruction offence is that you must have a complainent, If I was on the other side of the road and saw a car totally obstructing the pavement I would be unable to ticket until I received (either directly or via a Phone call from the member of the public) a complaint. This means that there is someone who is continually contacting the Police to complain about the parking there...

That's how it works here too. The street I live on, is one-way because it turns back on itself. It's a bit narrower because of that. Still doesn't stop idiots from parking on *both* sides...while they're attending events at the elementary school around the corner.

There was an instance last year, where an older woman fell in her house. The ambulance couldn't get through because some idiots didn't know how to fucking park--the ambulance had to turn around on the grass...and go the wrong way around to reach her.

Even so, the cops will *not* ticket vehicles parked there, unless they're blocking someone's driveway, blocking the entire street, or because they've illegally parked in someone else's driveway. There's not really much they can do, since as long as those conditions aren't met, and there aren't any "No parking" signs, they aren't breaking the law. We're currently drawing up a petition to get that changed--there are signs *before* you reach the school, but not after it for some reason :rolleyes:

[Rapscallion]

The law may not have changed, but I'm concerned with the area in which the law is enforced. That specific stretch of road may not have come under that jurisdiction before. I'm thinking in terms of new double-yellow lines and the like.

The money from fines certainly doesn't go to the police, but I believe the local council gets some of it, right? Do they profit from this sort of action? I'm not feeling argumentative, just curious.

I still think there is an awful lot of information not in there. The shopkeeper's perspective is that they were pleading with the officers in attendance, but the PCSO version is that she was being argumentative etc. I'd like some verification either way on this.

I can see both sides. PCSOs have a job to do, and the shop has to try and keep trade up despite more and more restrictions on their customers. It's not going to be fun.

Rapscallion

[crazylegs]

The law may not have changed, but I'm concerned with the area in which the law is enforced. That specific stretch of road may not have come under that jurisdiction before. (1) I'm thinking in terms of new double-yellow lines and the like.

The money from fines certainly doesn't go to the police (2), but I believe the local council gets some of it, right? Do they profit from this sort of action? I'm not feeling argumentative, just curious.

I still think there is an awful lot of information not in there. The shopkeeper's perspective is that they were pleading with the officers in attendance, but the PCSO version is that she was being argumentative etc. I'd like some verification either way on this (3).

I can see both sides. PCSOs have a job to do, and the shop has to try and keep trade up despite more and more restrictions on their customers. It's not going to be fun.

Rapscallion

Numbers added by myself

1) There are no double yellow lines, there is a photo in the Telegraph which shows a very narrow pavement, the article states that people have been using it as a car park, which is not what a pavement is for

2) You're thinking of the Safety Camera Partnership (ie speeding). In the case of parking tickets because the police is the issuing authority all the money goes to them, however because of the cost of wages for the writing of the ticket (wages of PCSO) then the additional paperwork (there is a part of a ticket which stays with PCSO and the Pocket Note Book) the remainder part then goes to a central ticket office where it is processed, a fine is issued yadda yadda yadda, basically the Police make no money at all, they make a loss.

3) In the Telegraph article the shopkeeper did state " I'm not proud of my actions, but I found it extremely difficult not to raise my voice and I told them to bugger off." , so even she states she was abusive.

Full article here. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2045298/Parking-spy-shopkeeper-warned-by-%27over-zealous%27-police.html

[miffed]

I love the excuse that the police should be more concerned with bigger problems, as if a bank robbery was happening down the street.

[Rapscallion]

Ah - I didn't have the telegraph article to rely on. Cheers! I'll get around to perusing that later (going to a wedding today and won't be back for long enough).

Rapscallion

[crazylegs]

I've done some digging and found out that the local policing priorities don't mention parking at all, its a bit odd as to why they've begun the clamp down...? http://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/LocalPages/BeatDetails.aspx?BeatID=414

(nothing even mentioned in the previous priorities either... :confused: http://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/LocalPages/BeatPACT.aspx?bid=414

[Slytovhand]

I'm curious Crazy...

If you happen to be walking down that path on duty, and the vehicle is obstructing your safe passage, why can't you ticket it then?

Same also if you happen to see those cars in the narrow street blocking your panda (if you have one - or similar), and then you turn into that street... it's blocking your path... why can't you ticket??

Slyt

(oh... and let's really not go down the no responsibility street... we just had a guy ring in and didn't want to pay for his toll because it was foggy and he didn't see the signs! ...so, if he hits a pedestrian, does that mean he gets off cos he didn't see the stop sign??)

[crazylegs]

I'm curious Crazy...

If you happen to be walking down that path on duty, and the vehicle is obstructing your safe passage, why can't you ticket it then?

Same also if you happen to see those cars in the narrow street blocking your panda (if you have one - or similar), and then you turn into that street... it's blocking your path... why can't you ticket??

Slyt



In my example I gave I stated I was on the other side of the road, therefore I wasn't being obstructed (technical point but *will* be upheld in court)

If however it is on the side of the road I am on then yes I can be the complainent and then ticket (and have done so in the past)

Well, technically speaking PCSOs should be out on foot "At All Times", however yes occasionaly we will be in a vehicle, as long as there is somewhere safe for US to park then yes again I'll ticket. If the vehicle is obstructing that much though I'll probably have it towed (little known in the UK that if your vehicle is obstructing roads completely it can and will be towed).

Simple answer Slyt is that if I am obstruced then I can be the complainent (as long as I have recorded that in my Pocket Note Book to that effect).

[aniwahya]

There are times when the whole "I am not a criminal" spiel is justified. Hell, I am a law abiding citizen of my country and state. I have family members who are not, who have called on the cops, told outrageous lies in an attempt to get into my house and loot stuff they could later sell for drugs. The cop in turn starts treating me like a criminal, because I refuse to have allow them into my house.


On the other hand , I am with you in not understanding how people can be so far in denial that they can't understand why the cops keep "harassing" their family member who couldn't stay on the right side of the law if they were buried in cement there. Heh, when my family members end up in jail I am this {} surprised.

This reminds me of something I saw on Cops awhile ago. Some guy was driving erratically and speeding, so naturally the cop pulls him over. The cop is processing the guys license when the guy decides to take off. High speed pursuit ensues, ending with the guy pulling into an apartment complex and parking in what appears to be his usual parking spot. As is to be expected after a high speed pursuit, a large number of cops jump on him as he gets out of the car and take subdue and cuff him. Sure enough a woman comes running out of an apartment building screaming about police brutality.
You would think common sense would kick in and she would shift her anger to her man, who was quite clearly drunk off his ass, but no it was all the cops' fault, harassing a man in his own apartment parking lot. Couldn't they just let the man go, and how dare they treat him with so much disrespect? There was no need to throw him to the ground when he resisted, that wasn't resisting he just didn't understand what was happening...

Stupidy is a plague upon mankind. Truly!