People who abuse the social assistance programs

[Ree]

This is a subject that comes up often over on CS.

There is currently a brand new thread started by a new member.
I figured I would start this in case the debate has to be moved here.

Anyone want to discuss it?

[AFPheonix]

All I have to say is, to the couple that drove up in a pretty new BMW SUV and handed me a medicaid card for their kid: This had better be a foster kid, because otherwise, you are jackasses.

[rahmota]

seriously i will agree. There are quite a few people who are using the system as the safety net that it is supposed to be. Unfortunately there are those that somehow slip through and wind up abusing it, and they are the ones who get the publicity making the honest people look all the worse. Like everyone who is using it is just some lazy money whore wanting to suck off the public teat. In the end though the abusers either goof up and get caught or kharma catches up and things fall so they actually need it. I'm rooting for kharma.

[protege]

Social assistance is a way of life in some parts of rural SW PA. Too many people are on it, and they shouldn't be. Granted, there are some that *need* to be on it, but quite a few do not. These people are able-bodied, yet would rather receive assistance than actually *work* for a living.

Assistance should not be given to those folks. Make the bastards work for it. After all, the *rest* of us have to work for things--why shouldn't they? If they had to work for it, it would free up cash for those who *truly* need it.

[rahmota]

Well about forcing people to work or the whole work thing. I have been unemployed for a year now. I have been out there busting my arse looking for work and unfortunately here in SOhiothere is a very tight job market. I am receiving the whole gamut of rejection slips. You're over qualiied, under qualified, inexperienced, wrongly experienced, no reason given, and my personal favorite is the no answer at all ignore you as if you didnt exist rejection.

I am registered with 4 temp agencies. i have stopped bothering to call them because every week for the past 12 months I have called them and gotten the same answer. We dont have any work for you. Which I dont understand when they are always running ads for people to come in. Which implies they have ork but they dont have work. Arrrggggghhh!

So the whole work thing is irritating unless you do he whole civilian conservatino corps make busy work like back in the thirties.

[Kelly Lynne]

Well about forcing people to work or the whole work thing. I have been unemployed for a year now. I have been out there busting my arse looking for work and unfortunately here in SOhiothere is a very tight job market...

So the whole work thing is irritating unless you do he whole civilian conservatino corps make busy work like back in the thirties.

My personal take is that anybody receiving social assistance should be either working, actively looking for work, or actively doing things that will help them get a job (taking classes, for example) in order to qualify for those benefits.

It's easy to say "Just get a job" but much harder in some cases to get one that actually pays the bills. However, requiring that you do something to make sure your dependence on the system is temporary might weed out the ones who are taking advantage.

It would also prevent people from not looking for work, not because they're lazy, but because they're being responsible. How's that work? Okay, so, let's say you've got a couple kids, and your spouse leaves you or dies. Money's tight, and this rather sucks, and then you get laid off & end up on public assistance. You're looking for work, but the only thing you're finding is low-paying jobs. While you'd rather work than be a drain, your benefits will go away (or be cut drastically) once you have income, and the job at McDonalds will not pay your bills and pay for a baby-sitter. So, rather than leave your kids unattended to work, you stay home with them and collect public assistance, waiting until they get older.

If you're actually rewarded for working (as in, you have to be working or doing something productive in that direction to get benefits, and you don't lose them because you finally managed to land a minimum wage job), that problem should be reduced.

[rahmota]

I'll agree with you on how there should be consequences if all you are doing is sitting around being a parasite. But that also the system is setup so that people can wind up doing the exact thing that is not good by being good.

In my instance for example. I have been unemployed for a year. But we get the minimum of assistence because I am doing some odd self-work, the farm is giving some income, my wife is bringing in some income and we have a renter. But even with all of that I would not say I am affluent or even very high into middle class. Breaking even would be a good phrase to use. So all I have is the state assisted HMO.

Fortunately long ago my wife and I made arrangements and agreement that at least one of us would be a stay at home parent for our kids sake. But like you said those people who cannot make those arrangments are getting shafted by society in general due to the vicious circle. A mcjob that doesnt even pay the regular bills and then trying to add child care on top of that is not a good solution to the problem.

So maybe a percentage solution. Where a person's job "benefits" are taken into account with the public "benefits" would be a good idea.

[Primer]

I wonder what it would take to have day care run by the public assistance folks so that the people who do have young kids could find work and/or take classes?

I understand that kids at home is a huge hurdle, but if daycare could be provided, then could job searching and/or schooling be mandated in order to receive further assistance??

Just a thought to throw out there...

[rahmota]

Interesting idea. Unfortunately it would cost money, somethign politicians are loathe to spend on poor people. While it may be good PR to say they care about the poor and the working poor and want to help them it doesnt actually fill their election coffers. And the changes to society that would truely have to be done to close the gap between the haves and the have nots would be even less popular.

[rdp78]

When I was a cashier I had few customers using food stamps and that's becuase there was a supermarket on the other side of the shopping center not mention we were in a fairly middle class section. Anyway most of them were nice folks but there were a couple that did give me attitude becuase they went over their limit and told me I didn't know what I was doing or something like it (yeah, but at least I'm working for my money which I really wanted to say). Anyway there was a one woman who used her food stamp card and then brought a remote control truck that was 50 bucks with cash. I didn't say anything and that she was with a friend who I think actually brought.

Anyway I do think that government assistance should be a hand up not a hand out and encouraging people to find a job by having classes, providing daycare, etc. It shouldn't be for people who don't want to work and don't even bother to find a job I mean they need a reality check. I mean there are agencies that help people find jobs and businesses like the Goodwill that train people.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Plus, I don't want to open up a can of worms but there's a big difference between a struggling woman who's partner left her holding the baby and a parasite who just pops out babies like she's never heard of the pill. Sometimes the communist in me cries out for forced sterilisation. -__- Those people must be a huge drain on welfare resources, and it's the good people who for whatever reason can't work who get screwed.

[rdp78]

Well, I should realize every situation is different as to why people use government assistance. I wasn't trying to be harsh yes people might face with unexpected death of their partner or even split from them and that person was the breadwinner so they need find a way to put food on the table. Those situations are more short term and there are other situations where a person just needs help while they get back on their feet. Of course, there are long term situations where a person just can't work becuase of illness or disablity.

Now there are other parasites other then the girls that pop out babies and need to be sterilize. There are the ones who have worked but have bad attitudes and so they ussually don't last long at any job they do. There are people who make any excuse not to find a job or don't want a low paying job. Of course, there are people who grew up on welfare and so they continue the family tradition.

[rahmota]

Thats why it gets me when i hear about some program that trys to be a one size fits all "solution" to the public assistence "problem". Much of the problems with public assistence is that there are too many ways to fall into the need for help and not enough ways to get out of the pit. Sometime speople can wind up in a death spiral and have little if any hope out.

Personally I blame capitalism, trickle down theory , current societal attitudes and the unfair and uneven distribution of the means and access to wealth. Companies getting to throw people away so they can go overseas and use cheap labor, among the various other cost cutting methods used. Thereby making it harder for people to have a decent job to pay their bills and keep themselves out of public assitence. the increase of low paying mcjobs with no benefits and little pay. *sigh*

[SuperDan]

Random theory:

Within 15 days of acquiring public assistance, each person over 18 and not currently in high school has to do one of the following:

Acquire a job of 35 hours per week or more (at any pay rate)
Enroll in classes at an accredited university for 6-11 credit hours each regular semester and acquire a job at any pay rate of 20-30 hours per week. A 2.0 GPA or better in school is required.
Enroll in classes at an accredited university for 12 credits or more each regular semester and acquire a job at any pay rate of 10-18 hours per week. A 2.0 GPA or better is required and the student must be enrolled in a program working toward a bachelor's degree.


If these conditions are not met, all assistance is to cease immediately. This includes not only the welfare checks, but also Section 8 housing, food stamps, medicaid, free school lunch, and the like.

Exceptions may be granted for one parent of a child under pre-K age, as well as people with documented permanent disabilities. All exceptions are to be approved by a majority vote by a group consisting of the family's case worker, the case worker's immediate supervisor, and a member of the state board responsible for public assitance.

Also, the children in these families will be eligible for subsidized daycare and pre-K programs. Fees for these programs, as well as housing and medicaid, will be on a sliding scale based on income of the whole family.

As long as all family members continue to meet eligibility guidelines, assistance shall continue until the family as a whole can meet and maintain a living wage on their own, or in the case that a member of the family leaves the household, until he can meet a living wage on his own and the remainder of the household can meet a living wage amongst themselves.

If a family fails to meet these requirements at any time, such as loss of a job or a drop in GPA or school credits below minimum, they have 15 days to rectify the situation or adjust to meet one of the other eligibility requirements, or they find themselves flat out on their asses.

Yes, I know this will never happen, but I can dream, right?

[Rapscallion]

While I applaud the intentions here, I have a problem with the state effectively saying that stupid people shouldn't be allowed to live. Take away their sustenance, which is what cutting off aid will do, is going to kill people. People will turn to crime, hence hurting the honest people.

Rapscallion

[SuperDan]

Actually, IMO this scheme would reflect the putting forward of at least a minimal effort to improve yourself. Exceptions as I said would be made for those who are physically unable to do work as well as for parents with extremely young children. These exceptions would naturally also apply to the extremely cognitively disabled. Most universities over here, if they don't like getting sued for being in violation of the ADA, will work their asses off to accommodate learning disabilities of all sorts, as well as other physical disabilities such as blindness or deafness that would hinder learning under normal university circumstances. And of course, if university just isn't your thing, how hard is it really to stand behind a retail counter for 35 hours a week? My hiring manager usually does a good job of proving that any idiot off the street can work for our company, but that's another thread...

Speaking as someone who has a GPA below 2.0 at two different schools (but still scores extremely high on aptitude and IQ tests), I can say that you pretty much have to be trying to suck to have less than a 2.0, and there are plenty of warning signs that tell you it's a pretty good idea to change your program to one more suitable to you. Hell, most universities offer tests at low or no cost to figure out what programs they offer would be best suited to you.

The bottom line here is if you have no desire to do anything other than freeload off of my tax dollars, I have no desire to let you freeload off of my tax dollars.

[rahmota]

Well again in theory it is a good idea to try and get people to be self sufficient and improving themselves I do have a couple of problems with your suggestions.

1) The timeframe available. I have been looking for a job for a little over a year now. Fortunately I am not quite in a make or break position about jobs so the inability to find one who agrees to hire me is not a major issue. Annnoying as hell as I dont see why I havent been hired but thats another topic altogether.

But suffice to say it is not always easy for everyone to go out and get a job within a month or so , much less within 15 days. Another one of those one size fits all problems I mentioned.

Also I live 10 miles from the nearest population center of any size. 4 miles from the nearest general store. But it is family run so if you are not related to them then you dont have a job. Otherwise within a 5 mile radius it is farms. To get to the nearest big city which in my case is cincinnati it is a 25-30 mile drive one way. See the problem with using the big brush to paint everyone like that?

2) Colleges are also another problem. The local community college only has enrollment for classes 4 times a year. The local jobs program through the ODJFS (welfare/unemployment) has only so many slots available. The local union apprenticeship program closed up when the factory left town. So educational programs are extremly limited if not unavailable. SO again the one size fits all approach doesnt work.

3) involving the governmental people you mentioned would be problematic and make thigns stretch out even longer than they already do. You are talking about people who may have a dozen or more families to deal with in some areas. They do not/may not have the luxury of being able to spend the kind of time it would take to have meetings about each and every individual case in their control district. The ODJFS office for highland county (Using my home county) for example services an entire county that according to the last census has a population of almost 30k people. Not everyone is on the welfare roll I know but still one office to deal with an entire county. Imagine if say 10% for a nice round number of those people are on the lists. Thats 3000 people for one office to deal with. Now the district manager above them has to deal with several different counties offices. And above them at the state level those people have to deal with the various district offices under them

Nice idea. I'd like to see something more equitable and hand up not handout as well but it has to be one that is manageable and fair for everyone. As well as flexible to deal with the various situations

Maybve some sort of social credit would be a good thing in my mind. Either that or a try at true hippie communism, not the soviet style communism.

[Rubystars]

I don't understand why people don't use food stamps to buy staple foods like rice, cereal, milk, cheese, bread, beans, meats, soups, produce, etc. They almost always buy a lot of junk, like sodas and candy and chips and cookies.

[Rapscallion]

The sensible people who use food stamps do. We just remember the ones who abuse the system.

Rapscallion

[Rubystars]

Sometimes the ones who consistently use it for food actually stand out more, but it is true that people tend to remember the bad more than the good.

[rahmota]

I'll agree the ones who abuse it are usually the ones who are the most remembered.

[SongsOfDragons]

I get NHS assistance because I'm epileptic and require a repeat prescription. Hence I don't have to pay for my meds. Last time I went to pick them up, some person behind me saw my card and started complaining loudly about how I, a 20-year-old student, shouldn't be allwed to have exemptions.

[fireheart17]

We don't have food stamps in Australia, but the major supermarkets will allow financial assistance vouchers if needed (i.e. ones that are handed down by the government). Some of them will buy decent things that they actually need, others will buy about half of what they actually need and spend the remainder on junk. I've had a few customers do that at work and while I don't make comments (obviously), I'm glad that they impose limits.

On the other hand, those that abuse the welfare systems need to be stopped.

[Kyree]

Why can't they make it against the rules to buy anything but the essentials with Food stamps? Or to take cash out?

[Seshat]

Within 15 days of acquiring public assistance, each person over 18 and not currently in high school has to do one of the following:

Nice in theory, impossible in practice: for reasons given by other people.

A more practical version is done in Aussieland:

* You are expected to be disabled, aged, a student, a carer of a disabled person, or looking for work, to get assistance.

* If you are disabled, but your doctor thinks you capable of working if you get the right support, you can use one of the government agencies set up for the purpose to try to get work you can do; and you can get the support.
However, as long as you and the agency are trying, you keep the pension. They don't require success, just the attempt.
An employer who employs a disabled person gets an allowance to use for things like special seating, modifying the staff loo, or whatever is needed.

* If you're a student, you can get assistance for books, travel expenses, study materials, and fees. The 'student' classification includes apprenticeships - the goverment doesn't care whether you're going to be a surgeon or a plumber, 'cause we need both.

* If you're unemployed (or disabled-trying-to-work) & moving from a place with fewer jobs to a place with more jobs, you can get financial assistance to move.

* If you're unemployed, you have to show evidence of applying for jobs. You also attend a meeting with an employment counsellor every so often, who helps you enter life skills programs, training programs, or whatever other programs you and she think will help you get work/cope with your life.

* If you're unemployed (or otherwise low-income) and have a problem (drug use, history of being abused, whatever), rehab or treatment or whatever other programs are likely to help you are either free or extremely heavily subsidised. Some are subsidised by charities rather than the government, but the employment counsellors or family doctors can refer you to any of them.

* Everyone with an income less than $X/annum gets certain types of assistance. There is a kind of sliding scale for things like the 'health care card' and 'family allowance'.
Before they did this, if you were on a pension and then got a job, you could suddenly end up with effectively less real income. There were plenty of people who literally couldn't afford to work.
The charities and the government agencies responsible worked on it, and now you get certain assistances based on total income level, not on your employment status.

It's not a perfect system, but it's better than it was twenty years ago, and we're still working on improving it.

[AdminAssistant]

That sounds like a great system, Seshat.

In SuperDan's plan...I don't like the idea of college being used as a 'dumping ground'. Not everyone needs to or should go to college - it's not for everyone. As Seshat said, we need surgeons and we need plumbers. And most universities in the US are over-enrolled as it is, because state funding is based on enrollment numbers.

[fireheart17]

* If you're a student, you can get assistance for books, travel expenses, study materials, and fees. The 'student' classification includes apprenticeships - the goverment doesn't care whether you're going to be a surgeon or a plumber, 'cause we need both.

On top of that, the only major problem is that with the student allowances, they stop when you turn 21, but the senior student allowance isn't paid until the age of 25. There's also the consideration that they don't consider you "independent" until 25...it boggles me.

MOD EDIT - Please do not quote entire post.