Religious Persecution

[the_std]

... But coming from the other side.

Yesterday, I saw an art exhibit about how religious people are being persecuted by the media, the schools and the majority in general. The artist talked about how religious people were being told to shut up about their religion, about how they weren't allowed to talk about it because the PCs would cry "religious discrimination". She mentioned kids not being allowed to pray in school at all, about not being taught anything about religion in public schools, about not being able to publicly celebrate Christmas or other religious holidays and about not having any modern Christian culture like the secular part of the West does. She talked about all Christian music being termed "preachy and boring", about religious TV shows being ignored because they weren't considered edgy and about religious novelists being told that they were outdated. She said that the pendulum has swung the other way, and that it was like the Crusades, except against the religious.

So, what do you think? Is religion being persecuted?

[Norton]

I don't think it's being persecuted, but that rather power is being taken away from it. It seems to me that less people are being drawn to Christianity, and more people are abandoning it. If that's correct, then it only makes sense that the Christian influence will lessen.

Yes, in some areas Christians are being told to keep quiet about their religion. More and more people are disbelieving in it, and don't want to hear about how the Christian way is better. How is this different from a Christian not wanting to be preached to by a Wiccan/Hindu/Scientologist? My beliefs are just as strong as anyone's, and I have a right to not be preached to.

There are a great many kids in public schools that don't celebrate Christmas. Yes, it's a national holiday, but it's also a religious holiday. I'm sure being bombarded with Christmas themes in school makes non-Christian children uncomfortable (I was one of them). However, I disagree that there should be no prayer in public schools. If a child wants to say grace before eating lunch, they should be allowed to. The problem is when school staff lead the children in prayer - no one should be forced to pray, just as no one should be forced to celebrate a religious holiday.

As for not being taught religion, that shouldn't be the school's burden. Parents should be instilling religious values in their children. At the most, schools should only explain the basic beliefs and practices behind various religions. If someone wants their child to learn religious values through school, they'll have to forgo the public school system and invest in a private, religious school.

As for Christian music... um, of course non-Christians won't like it! It preaches something they don't believe in. I dislike some of the messages I've heard in Christian music because a lot has to do with letting God fix your problems - something I strongly disagree with. Oh, aside from the messages, I find a lot of Christian rock sounds very generic and un-inspiring musically.

The current situation is very different from the crusades. No one saying to Christians "Become an Atheist or else!" I doubt it will come to a point where people have to practice Christianity in secret, lest they suffer torture. Christians are free to believe and practice what they wish, but the influence they've held for so long is starting to wane - as it should. America is slowly shifting from being a largely Christian country to a melting pot of ideas and beliefs. I see this as a good thing.

[Slytovhand]

It's an interesting thought.... that one of the most fundamental apsects of human nature is being 'persecuted'... and I'd put it down to technology and science.

Some of it will be the PC's of the world (damn that Microsoft!!!) - because they don't want to offend anyone (and please recall, it was I who started a couple of threads on here about that... such as the 'Blaspheme' thread...but I tend to throw stuff up in the interests of debate). Besides which, there was the very real aspect of christians attacking muslims after the WTC attacks (still goes on.. and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are being termed in religious contexts.... by some).

If you are going to bring the Crusades into this, then yes... religion is going to be persecuted... because quite often, history will follow any discussion of religion... and history is full of religious persecution.

As a slight argument against Norton... I do think that religion should be taught in public schools - comparative religion... to help a) curb some of the persecution that has gone on in light of the woes of the world, and b) to help instill that belief - any belief - is important to people as something inherent... and that just because you choose to believe something (or nothing) then what others believe has just as much validity and worth. (it's way too easy to scoff at someone else's beliefs when you don't bother trying to accept that simple premise!) This might go a little way to easing some of the attitudes people have towards each other.


But in a way - it is understandable... as a lot of the media's attention will focus on those religious leaders who go for the media - and thus are vocal... and have a tendency to be fundamentalists and extreme conservatives (often... read looneys). Moderates tend to get silenced in the media (unless they're put on a back foot from the fundies). And a lot talk about retribution and sin and evil... people don't want to be continually told they are evil and have to atone... they've gotten past that (and don't want to think that what is socially acceptable is actually bad... or give up their creature comforts). So.. religion of that kind will decline.


Just my thoughts... at 6am

Slyt

[Difdi]

So, what do you think? Is religion being persecuted?


In that context, yes. The statement "all opinions are equally valid" is semantically identical to "all opinions are equally invalid." As a result, in an attempt to be tolerant of everyone's religion, the end result is to prevent the practice of any religion, since one person visibly practicing would have an impact on someone of another religion watching it.

Personally, my religion is a private thing. I don't pray aloud, I seldom wear obvious symbols of it. I don't wear much jewelry, period. But get on my case about me clasping my hands and meeting God's gaze, as I silently pray? I'll give your opinion the respect it deserves, and do as my rights permit me. If someone has a problem with my prayer, they can pound sand...because they have no right to tell me not to, no matter where I choose to do it.

I realize a lot of students, particularly younger ones, might have problems doing this. Teachers and other adults have a lot of power. But teach your kids to stand up for what is right, and if necessary, sue the bejeezus out of the district -- after all, if they expel your kid for being insubordinate and praying anyway, you've got a airtight civil rights case (which begs the question...how can you be insubordinate by obeying a higher civil authority than the one who is giving you cotnrary orders?)

[Zyanya]

http://bligbi.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/anti-christian-bigotry.gif

[Zyanya]

Yesterday, I saw an art exhibit about how religious people are being persecuted by the media, the schools and the majority in general.

We have 23 local channels that all TVs in the area can pick up, free of charge.

Two of them are entirely devoted to Christian programming.

On Sunday Morning, only 4 of them are NOT showing Christian programming, and 2 of those are showing the news.

She mentioned kids not being allowed to pray in school at all, about not being taught anything about religion in public schools, about not being able to publicly celebrate Christmas or other religious holidays and about not having any modern Christian culture like the secular part of the West does.

Oh no, the poor little Christian has to deal with someone wishing them Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Whatever is the world coming to?

Hang on, let me check......

Nope, the pledge of allegiance still says 'under god' and there are still Christian clubs allowed on all school campuses. It's still legal to attend church and pray on your own time. So, what, she's upset that her kid can't pray out loud during a math test and disrupt other students?

No, she's upset because her little snowflake isn't being allowed to preach to her classmates on school time and that her little snowflake can get in trouble if she tries to bully students of different faiths that they need to follow hers or go to hell.

She talked about all Christian music being termed "preachy and boring", about religious TV shows being ignored because they weren't considered edgy and about religious novelists being told that they were outdated.

*gasp*

You mean people aren't being forced to listen to music, read books, and watch TV that isn't to their tastes? The shame of it! The horror! Someone must do something immediately!

[the_std]

You mean people aren't being forced to listen to music, read books, and watch TV that isn't to their tastes? The shame of it! The horror! Someone must do something immediately!

Haha, that's pretty much what I was thinking as I looked at the exhibit.

[aniwahya]

How many Presidents of the US (a major world superpower) have been a non-christian?

I think there were two atheists. A lot more were non-practicing christians, but nonetheless felt the need to distinguish themselves as christians.

Complaining about being persecuted is a common passive-aggressive tactic. It takes focus away from their aggressive actions, is intended to make other religions defensive, and build sympathy for the "victims" all at the same time.

It varies between cities, but in my area of the US churchs of christian denominations outnumber all other religious centers 100:1. I have never seen non Christians marching in the streets proclaiming their beliefs via signs and yelling. Every time I turn around I see chistians exercising their right of free speech and freedom of religion, all the while ruthlessly oppressing other religions and lines of belief.*

I simply fail to see the persecution. :confused: The whole argument sounds like she is interpreting rejection of christian beliefs and values as being an oppressive attack.

*I am using these as examples of where the balance of power is in favor of the christians.

[Amethyst Hunter]

You can't be and are not persecuted if you're the dominant religion in an area. The dominant makes the rules.

When Christians are forced at gunpoint to convert to a different religion, when Christian churches everywhere are systematically shut down as part of a concerted fascist effort, when one can't even admit in public to being Christian for fear of literal life and limb, then, and ONLY then, can it truly be said that Christianity and those who follow it are under real persecution. (At least in this country, anyway)

The whole "Xtians are soooo persecuted!" "There's a War Against Christmas/Xtians!" is total bullshit. It's just a way for the wankers (who should not be confused with actual Christians) to play the pity card and grab up more power than they deserve. They want real persecution, they should go overseas and get yanked out of bed in the middle of the night to be driven downtown and beaten to a bloody pulp, or completely disappear for good. THAT'S persecution.

[AFPheonix]

How many Presidents of the US (a major world superpower) have been a non-christian?


Hell, it was a big deal when Kennedy was elected because he was Catholic, not Protestant.

Kids are allowed to pray in school, I'm not sure where that lady is getting that from. Teachers and whatnot are just not allowed to do official prayers for the kids. The kids can instigate prayer at appropriate times, though, like recess and other breaks.

This is a pretty common theme in a lot of churches, because giving the congregation something to rally around and fight against promotes unity of a sorts. There was a lot of "us against the world" stuff at the one I grew up in. Hell, even some of the Sunday School songs we'd sing were reminiscent of that idea:
I may never march in the infantry
Ride in the cavalry
Shoot the artillery
I may never fly over the enemy
But I'm in the Lord's Army
(Yes Sir!)
-repeat ad nauseum-

I'll bet the originator of the exhibit grew up saying and thinking exactly that sort of stuff.

[Difdi]

Kids are allowed to pray in school, I'm not sure where that lady is getting that from. Teachers and whatnot are just not allowed to do official prayers for the kids. The kids can instigate prayer at appropriate times, though, like recess and other breaks.


There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers. A number of schools have canceled their official Christmas celebrations (which, due to the establishment clause, is a good thing) but many schools take it too far, and punish kids who wear Christmas-themed clothing to school.

[IDrinkaRum]

AFP - I was going to mention Kennedy's Catholicism, but you beat me to it. :) But yeah, I remember being told in History class that he had to make a promise that the Pope would have no say in his administration. :rolleyes:

I don't feel I'm persecuted, per se by non-Christian people. However, I do sometimes feel I'm persecuted by other Christian peoples 'cos I'm a Catholic and not a Protestant because Catholics are baby-eating, devil-worshiping, non-God worshiping, worshiping the Virgin Mary religious zealots. Or something like that. I don't know - I usually stop listening to their rantings.

Ahem, yes, well, I'll get you back to your Original Topic and stop the off-topic ranting. :)

[AFPheonix]

There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers. A number of schools have canceled their official Christmas celebrations (which, due to the establishment clause, is a good thing) but many schools take it too far, and punish kids who wear Christmas-themed clothing to school.

Then that's an infringement on the child's right to freedom of religion, and is prosecutable. The school cannot promote or discourage religion. It gets to be neutral. The kids can either be religious or not, but should not allow their religion or lack of it to be a disruption to the rest of the kids.

[Boozy]

There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers.

Can you provide links to specific incidences?

I'm questioning you here because schools cannot prevent a student from praying during their free time on school grounds, as long as they are not unduly disruptive to other students.

To ban individual prayer would be in violation of several major Supreme Court judgments (most notably, the 1990 Mergens ruling) and these schools would not have a leg to stand on if they were sued.

[anriana]

So when this person said "religious people are being persecuted by the media" she meant "Christians are being persecuted?" Or it just happened at all of her examples that specified a religion specified something Christian?


"People tell me to shut up when I try to witness to them and they don't want to hear it, work wouldn't let me set up a nativity in my office, someone said tv shows based on a 2,000-year-old religion aren't edgy, and people who don't share my religious beliefs don't want to consume media that involves those beliefs? This is EXACTLY like an army invading my country, sacking my temple, and killing my family!"


She may have been able to make a statement about the declining influence of Christianity, but not if she's going to make asinine claims like "This is exactly like the Crusades!"

[the_std]

She said "religious people", but all of her examples were Christian save one. I think it was something along the lines of "what if you're religious, but not a Christian? You're told to go to a Christian school, because public schools don't allow religion", but that was so absurd (ignoring the various Jewish, Hindu, Muslim and Native American schools we have here) that I didn't include it in the original post.

And I don't think she meant it EXACTLY like the Crusades, but she said what I included in the OP.

[BlaqueKatt]

Yesterday, I saw an art exhibit about how religious people are being persecuted by the media, the schools and the majority in general. <snip>
So, what do you think? Is religion being persecuted?

Let's see how webster's dictionary describes persecution shall we?

Persecution
Per`se*cu"tion\, n. [F. pers['e]cution, L. persecutio.]

1. The act or practice of persecuting; especially, the infliction of loss, pain, or death for adherence to a particular creed or mode of worship.

2. The state or condition of being persecuted.

3. A carrying on; prosecution.


I see no infliction of Loss, pain or death-so nope no persecution.

[Pedersen]

You can't be and are not persecuted if you're the dominant religion in an area. The dominant makes the rules.

Let's see how webster's dictionary describes persecution shall we?

Wow. Let's check out Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution) real quick (mainly because it's online):

Persecution is the active, systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group or individual.

Now, since that's Wikipedia, and so many people have issues with them, I'll go with the Compact Oxford English Dictionary (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/persecute?view=get) online, which lists persecute as:

verb 1 subject to prolonged hostility and ill-treatment. 2 persistently harass or annoy.

My apologies, I don't have access to a full copy of the OED, or I'd quote from there, too.

Oh, and one more quote, from BlaqueKatt, quoting Webster's dictionary:

The act or practice of persecuting

Note that not a single one of these definitions require that one group be dominant, nor that one group have any loss or death inflicted on them. Only that there is prolonged action against a specific individual or group. That's the one thing that all of them have in common.

Is Christianity being persecuted? I don't know, and honestly don't much care.

I do know that what you're all arguing against, though, is not what these people are stating. They are stating that they feel like they are experiencing hostilities on a regular basis, and this has been going on for some time. As such, they do feel persecuted.

If you want to get on their case because you feel that they're obnoxious, or because you feel that they are trying to force their way into every aspect of your life, or whatever, that's fine. Have at it.

But be honest about it, and don't try to hide behind a shield of majority/minority, or focusing on a specific (and optional) subsection of a specific definition of a word. That just makes you look dishonest to those that know the definitions that you are (apparently) ignoring.

[CancelMyService]

It's hard for someone belonging to a religion shared by like 80% of the country to claim persecution. I'd wager someone of wiccan belief has a much, much better case to make.

From someone who considers themself a retired Christian, it seems that most of the "OMG persecuted!" claims can be boiled down to "OMG you won't let me force my beliefs on everyone!"

[Boozy]

It's hard for someone belonging to a religion shared by like 80% of the country to claim persecution.

Yes and no.

Claims of persecution by Christians in America are at best laughable, and at worst offensive (to those who have truly experienced persecution.)

But its important to recognize that the majority does not always hold the power; blacks in South Africa would be a good example of this. In the case of Christianity in America, persecution cannot be claimed because it is the religion of the ruling elite, not necessarily because it is the choice of religion for the majority.

I realize that was a bit nitpicky, but I'm trying to head off some more predictable objections.

[Zyanya]

There is a growing trend where schools are actually forbidding individual prayers. A number of schools have canceled their official Christmas celebrations (which, due to the establishment clause, is a good thing) but many schools take it too far, and punish kids who wear Christmas-themed clothing to school.

No, there really isn't.

There are right-wing editorials claiming there is such a trend, but any actual activity in that 'trend' is a statistical rarity if not an over-hyped misunderstanding or downright work of fiction.

I do know that what you're all arguing against, though, is not what these people are stating. They are stating that they feel like they are experiencing hostilities on a regular basis, and this has been going on for some time. As such, they do feel persecuted.

The 'hostilities' they are 'experiencing on a regular basis' amount to such horrid crimes as when they walk up to someone and say 'can I tell you about Jesus', the person responds 'no'. Or when the knock on someone's door to 'spread the good word' and the person on the other side of the door points to the very clear 'no solicitation sign'.

And don't forget the extremely cruel insult of 'happy holidays'. How dare people try to be inclusive instead of only acknowledging Christians!

Or the nerve of not allowing someone to lead me prayer when coming over to my house for dinner.

Why, just the other day I persecuted someone who forced a religious tract into my hands by turning around and tossing it in the trash. I probably should at least get 3 months probation and community service for that.

And when giving someone a ride home, when they reached over and turned my radio to a Christian talk station without asking if it was okay with me, I, and yes it shames me to the core to admit this, I reached over and *gasp* turned the dial back to where it was originally.

And I *sniffles* replaced my darwin fish bumper sticker after some well-meaning individual vandalized my old one. Not only that, I removed the 'Jesus is Lord' bumpersticker that same well-meaning individual placed on my car.

Yeah, that's totally persecution.

[Pedersen]

It's hard for someone belonging to a religion shared by like 80% of the country to claim persecution. I'd wager someone of wiccan belief has a much, much better case to make.

Claims of persecution by Christians in America are at best laughable, and at worst offensive (to those who have truly experienced persecution.)

The 'hostilities' they are 'experiencing on a regular basis' amount to such horrid crimes as when they walk up to someone and say 'can I tell you about Jesus', the person responds 'no'. Or when the knock on someone's door to 'spread the good word' and the person on the other side of the door points to the very clear 'no solicitation sign'.

Wow... three people respond to me, and not one of them actually seems to have read my post. Either that, or I was so obtuse that my post was simply not possible to be understood.

I'll try again. Persecution is not a numbers game. It is about words and actions.

1 person can persecute 100. For instance, I'm a white guy. If I move into a predominantly black neighborhood, I can easily persecute every black person in this neighborhood. How? Start walking around wearing a white sheet. Hang a confederate flag. Walk around wearing a white sheet. Put offensive bumper stickers on my car.

These are all just examples. Ah, wait, that's bigotry, not persecution, isn't it? You all seem to need persecution to relate to religion. Fine.

How about a single Wiccan persecuting a neighborhood of Christians? Will that do it? Because here's some examples for how that could happen. Wiccan hangs religious symbols in every window of the home. Hangs them from every tree in the yard. Walks up and down the street, preaching how the Christian faith is wrong at the top of his lungs, and that any Christians who fail to follow that Wiccan's chosen path are evil. Wiccan makes show of casting various spells on people on the street. Visits the local church, and spray paints various symbols over the local symbols. Breaks in, burns the bibles. Etc, etc.

Is that enough for you to get the point? Or do I have to continue to provide more and more examples? One person can persecute one hundred people, and do so quite easily.

Oh, and since this point was mostly ignored: I have zero idea if Christians are being persecuted. And I honestly do not care. But this crap of "You're in the majority, so it can't possibly happen to you" is just that: crap. Gah, it's that other racism thread all over again.

Go ahead, pat yourselves on the back. You're in the minority, some one else is in the majority, and therefore they're automatically in the wrong. Now that I've realized that that's what these sorts of threads are for, I'll step away and let you have whatever delusions you wish.

[the_std]

Personally, I think that the claim of persecution is silly. Not because it's the majority claiming persecution, but because persecution is such a loaded, heavy and very negative word. Simply receiving hostility from groups different from yourself isn't persecution, it's life. If they were receiving hostility that made it impossible to practice their religion anywhere, at any time, then I might agree. If they were being constantly harassed to the point of not being able to admit their Christianity in public for fear of being ostracized or beaten, then I might agree.

But her claim of Christian persecution here, in the city, hell, in the country I live in, just doesn't fly. Not because the Christians are the majority (which they are), but because she is seeing a balance returning as discriminating against her religion.

[AFPheonix]

Wow... three people respond to me, and not one of them actually seems to have read my post. Either that, or I was so obtuse that my post was simply not possible to be understood.

I'll try again. Persecution is not a numbers game. It is about words and actions.



That's funny, you went on to restate what Boozy already said:
Yes and no

But its important to recognize that the majority does not always hold the power; blacks in South Africa would be a good example of this. In the case of Christianity in America, persecution cannot be claimed because it is the religion of the ruling elite, not necessarily because it is the choice of religion for the majority.



The part you quoted was referring to the actual lack of persecution itself. Christians really aren't as persecuted as they'd like to think. I would think athiests or Muslims have a better claim to persecution in this country, really.

[Boozy]

Wow... three people respond to me, and not one of them actually seems to have read my post.

Why did you think I was responding to you? I didn't quote you in my post. I was quoting CancelMyService.

You're right about one thing, however - I didn't read your post. :p

[Slytovhand]

I'll join in this bit...:D

Pedersen...
How about a single Wiccan persecuting a neighborhood of Christians? Will that do it? Because here's some examples for how that could happen. Wiccan hangs religious symbols in every window of the home. Hangs them from every tree in the yard.

Nope.. those 2 examples are just 'freedom of speech', not a form of persecution... Letting people know what you believe, especially in your own home, isn't persecution.

Yeah... the rest of the story is though :D

Given that your various elected officials are under an oath 'to god' (presuming they still are...??), I think it would be hard to push the 'christians are persecuted' line. And that, so I read not so long ago, that apparently the majority of US citizens don't want an atheist as president... as if that actually matters.

And 'feeling persecuted' doesn't actually mean they are being persecuted... as was mentioned - it's a nice word to use when you want to elicit support for a cause.


Pedersen... can we have some more examples please?? :D:D

Slyt

[CancelMyService]

Well there's certainly a difference between blacks in South Africa and Christians in America, and I'm not sure that's something that needed pointing out but ok.

Perhaps I should have phrased it more like "It's hard for someone belonging to a religion that has major influence on national discourse and elections to to claim persecution".

[anriana]

Pederson - I see what you mean by stating that a majority can still technically be persecuted, but I still don't agree that Christians are being persecuted even under the definitions you provided. There is no long "prolonged action" against the religion, only a prolonged REaction. Very few, if any, people have randomly decided "Hey, prank calling CSRs and making fun of Islam is getting old, let's move on to harassing Christians!" Every example she provided of "persecution" is a response to actions by Christians.

[Zyanya]

Is that enough for you to get the point? Or do I have to continue to provide more and more examples? One person can persecute one hundred people, and do so quite easily..

You have to find me a real-life example, then demonstrate it's a widespread problem.

Since you cannot, it's pretty safe to say the persecution is exactly what we are saying it is.

You haven't countered anything we have said.

[Difdi]

Then that's an infringement on the child's right to freedom of religion, and is prosecutable. The school cannot promote or discourage religion. It gets to be neutral. The kids can either be religious or not, but should not allow their religion or lack of it to be a disruption to the rest of the kids.


The problem arises in how you define a disruption. Kids being kids, someone simply being visibly different can cause disruption. One Wiccan kid in a Bible Belt school can cause a massive disruption. The other kids wearing a cross on a neck chain won't cause a disruption -- it's normal. But what happens in gym class if someone sees that Wiccan kid wearing a symbol of his faith? Instant disruption.

Is the kid wrong to quietly wear a necklace? Not at all. But it's easier for a school to control 1 kid than to control 3000. Defined the way the more authoritarian schools do so, that kid is being disruptive in class.

Can you provide links to specific incidences?


I can probably dig up a few, but I don't have any right at the moment.

I'm questioning you here because schools cannot prevent a student from praying during their free time on school grounds, as long as they are not unduly disruptive to other students.

To ban individual prayer would be in violation of several major Supreme Court judgments (most notably, the 1990 Mergens ruling) and these schools would not have a leg to stand on if they were sued.


Of course they can prevent it. They're not allowed to under the law, but they can. The balance of power is such that a student has little recourse save to file a lawsuit if hir rights are violated. In the meantime, the student will be in constant detention, possibly expelled, punished by the school, shunned by classmates, possibly even facing criminal charges, and may never recover academically. Assuming it gets to a court, well, a number of courts have refused to hear school related cases -- They claim a lack of jurisdiction. Assuming the family goes to great expense and manages to get onto a docket, they will probably win. But that takes quite a lot of money and time, and in the meantime, the school does whatever it feels like.

And again on the subject of disruption: If your local community is so intolerant of paganism, that simply displaying a Wiccan (or Sikh, or Discordian, or whatever) symbol is enough to get crowds of parents talking about morality and/or picketing the school, then showing that symbol is almost certainly going to be ruled disruptive by the school administration.

No, there really isn't.

There are right-wing editorials claiming there is such a trend, but any actual activity in that 'trend' is a statistical rarity if not an over-hyped misunderstanding or downright work of fiction.


Yes, there really is. I'm not referring to editorials or opinion pieces. I'm talking about real news articles. And as I replied to Boozy up above, I don't have the URLs right at my fingertips, but I could find quite a few links if I worked at it.

Perhaps it is getting reported more now and always happened in the past, unnoticed. Or perhaps I'm right and the increase in reporting is indicative of a trend in schools. I do object to you characterizing things you don't like as a work of fiction though. As an example. there's an actual published book that chronicles a chain of events that most people in the US would claim "can't happen here". The book is often shelved in the fiction section of libraries and book stores, due to people not believing that something like that can happen in America. But it's not fiction. It's also not relevant to the topic of this thread, but go google "The Hacker Crackdown", by Bruce Sterling.

Why, just the other day I persecuted someone who forced a religious tract into my hands by turning around and tossing it in the trash. I probably should at least get 3 months probation and community service for that.

Yeah, that's totally persecution.


Be careful. In some places, doing that to holy literature (throwing in trash, flushing down a toilet, whatever) could be considered a hate crime. There's a case in Canada at the moment of a priest quoting aloud from the Bible to support his Church's opposition to abortion being charged with a hate crime. :eek:

[AFPheonix]

The problem arises in how you define a disruption. Kids being kids, someone simply being visibly different can cause disruption. One Wiccan kid in a Bible Belt school can cause a massive disruption. The other kids wearing a cross on a neck chain won't cause a disruption -- it's normal. But what happens in gym class if someone sees that Wiccan kid wearing a symbol of his faith? Instant disruption.



But in that case, I would define the children who noticed the symbol and proceeded to make a big deal out of it to be the disruptors, not the child with the necklace. But you're also assuming that other kids will notice the necklace and even understand what it represents. In this case, the kids who theoretically would be making noise would be getting the negative attention.

I would love to see articles where kids were bullied into not praying in school. Maybe I went to a weird public school k-6, but I never had an issue. Now, I have heard of teachers who weren't allowed to pull bibles out in class or preach to kids without facing retribution, but that's understandable.

[Zyanya]

Yes, there really is. I'm not referring to editorials or opinion pieces. I'm talking about real news articles. And as I replied to Boozy up above, I don't have the URLs right at my fingertips, but I could find quite a few links if I worked at it.

Then work at it. I see tons of claims that it's widespread, but no actual real cases except for obviously one-sided propaganda like 'well, I was lecturing this student on why she was going to hell and the teacher told me to knock it off so he oppressed me!!!"

The simple fact that you would have to work at finding a few links demonstrates that no, it is not widespread or a growing trend.

But let's go ahead and look at an actual case of religious persecution in a school, m'kay?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/29/us/29delaware.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

Wow. So much persecution going on there. I mean, how dare a JEW ask that the prayers be a little more inclusive of other faiths! That's anti-Christian bigotry right there! How dare these people not want to be proselytized to! It's downright unAmerican.

I do object to you characterizing things you don't like as a work of fiction though.

Sorry dear, but I've dealt with enough people who were persecuted only in their own minds to know it is primarily a work of fiction and wishful thinking. My own aunt thinks I am stamping down on her religious beliefs by refusing to let her take my son to church. She thinks it is her right to force her religious beliefs on others, thus in her mind it is religious persecution anytime someone objects or states a different belief.

Been there, done that, t-shirts are $1.99 a 12-pack.

It's the same claptrap that says 'because we aren't forcing kids to be Christian, they are getting in trouble', while conveniently forgetting the majority of the prison population is Christian.

No, the real story of this 'Christian persecution' is that some Christians see adding any opposing viewpoint to the school library (like a book about a gay penguin) as an attack on their religion. I see people claiming that schools are teaching kids about studying human sacrifice. WTFBBQ damn right it's a work of fiction.

Look at this piece of stupidity -

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1954210/posts

"In some primary and elementary schools, students are taught how to cast spells."

Yeah, I call it a work of fiction for a reason. That being, it's a bald-faced malicious lie trying to slander public schools.

Be careful. In some places, doing that to holy literature (throwing in trash, flushing down a toilet, whatever) could be considered a hate crime. There's a case in Canada at the moment of a priest quoting aloud from the Bible to support his Church's opposition to abortion being charged with a hate crime. :eek:

Uh-huh. Now give me the whole story there, cause something similar happened in the US. Turns out the real story was the guy was supporting abortion clinic bombings by using passages about killing unbelievers.

No, there is no place where me throwing a religious pamphlet thrust into my hands into the garbage is a 'hate crime'. That to is a work of fiction.

[Pedersen]

Uh-huh. Now give me the whole story there, cause something similar happened in the US. Turns out the real story was the guy was supporting abortion clinic bombings by using passages about killing unbelievers.

No, there is no place where me throwing a religious pamphlet thrust into my hands into the garbage is a 'hate crime'. That to is a work of fiction.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4608949.stm

[AFPheonix]

^^ In that case, it was more of a disrespect for someone else's property than a hate crime due to having thrown away a pamphlet someone gave to you.

[Zyanya]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4608949.stm

AFPheonix covered the obvious difference between that occurrence and the scenario I offered.

But for the peanut gallery, the difference is this -

If I go into your house, take your holy book, and destroy your property, that is a hate crime.

If you force a holy book into my hands, making it my property, and I destroy my property, that is my right.

Just like if I sell my car on craigslist, it's business, but if I sell your car on craigslist, it's theft.

Or if I pull out all the flowers from my flower bed, it's gardening, but if I pull out all the flowers from your flower bed, it's vandalism.


Like I said, look at the WHOLE story.

So again, no, there is no place where me throwing a religious pamphlet thrust into my hands into the garbage is a 'hate crime'. That to is a work of fiction.

[Seshat]

<Mod hat on>

Let's try to keep things civil, they're starting to edge towards the point where we'll have to interfere, and I'd rather not.

Remember: argue the ideas, not the individual.

<Mod hat off>


My parents tried to tell me that Christianity is persecuted in Australia.

On that same trip, I went with them to their church, at their request. The guest speaker that day went on this great raving monologue about pushing Christianity down other people's throats. (Though he phrased it more as 'missionary work'.)

Honestly, I feel that my spiritual and religious beliefs are far more 'persecuted' than theirs:

- They, for many years, successfully ran a business which advertised its Christian owners and (many, not all) Christian staff.
- I've only once dared mention my own beliefs at a workplace, for fear of being fired. Oh, not openly 'how dare you believe that, you're fired', but reasons can always be found. The one exception was a business owned and run by pagans.

- Their religious holidays and 'day of rest' are the dominant ones for the nation.
- If I want a religious holiday off, I have to negotiate for it. Which, given that I dare not mention my beliefs in a workplace ..... is kinda hard.

- Go into any major city in the nation on Friday or Saturday night, and somewhere, there'll be a Christian street preacher bugging everyone about how they're going to Hell.
- The closest I've seen to someone of my religion feeling secure enough to openly celebrate their religion are the Hare Krishnas dancing and singing their joy. And no, I'm not one of them - but I kinda like them. They're fun.

Sure, I - and many, many other Australians - will tell proselytising Christians to get the hell of our doorsteps. In varying degrees of 'polite' or 'rude'. But that's not persecution.

Sure, some people don't like Christian music or to be talked to about Christianity. But on the other hand, I bet most of the folks here will recognise this lyric snippet:

Going on up to the spirit in the sky
That's where I'm gonna go when I die
When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best.


Or this one:

Your own personal Jesus
Someone to hear your prayers
Someone who cares.



When stuff like this is so popular, I don't think Christianity is generically persecuted in this country. Oh sure, some individuals might find it excessive, or offensive, or whatever. But turn the other cheek and ignore those individuals.


Reach out and touch Faith.

[the_std]

Ahhh, Seshat, Marilyn Manson is definitely my favourite Christian musician ever. :D

[repsac]

From my experience, my personal experience that is, it seems to depend on a ton of things. Whether your sect, your particular religion, or you current living location.

Take me for example, I follow a faith that's...well it's REALLY hard to explain. Officially it's called Shintoism, but the more accurate naming of it is Shinto Christianity.

(See. confusing. Trust me it could get worse.)

It's a japanese take on Christianity, and has been described by many outside the faith as being quote "Peaceful and beautiful."

However, I happen to live well into the "Bible" belt. Right smack dab among all the fundamentalist and southern baptists. Because of their beliefs, and the fact that they control most of the governmental and legislative positions in my area, I can't openly talk about my faith.

If I do, I'll face persecution. In most cases, out right open persecution. I remember a few years back, going to this harvest fair with a few friends of mine. While we were there, we were invited to eat at this large buffet, and well...I guess I slipped.

When I was handed my food, I reflexively bowed my head and said "itadakimasu". This means "I humbly receive" and is our way of showing thanks to the person who prepared the food, as well as the animals that gave their life to provide nourishment. Well, the server took one look at me as I said that and snatched the food back, stating he wasn't serving no <blank> pagan. Furthermore, if I knew what was <blank> good for me, I'd get my <blank> <blank> out of there before they showed me what their God told them to <blanking> do with <blank> Pagans.

I just quietly left. To this day I still get a hard time, but I no longer talk about my faith openly. It's just not a hassle I think I need.

[guywithashovel]

The 'hostilities' they are 'experiencing on a regular basis' amount to such horrid crimes as when they walk up to someone and say 'can I tell you about Jesus', the person responds 'no'. Or when the knock on someone's door to 'spread the good word' and the person on the other side of the door points to the very clear 'no solicitation sign'.



I've actually had a few door knockers tell me that "No Solicitation" signs do not apply to them, because (according to them) "solicit" means "sell," and they are not selling anything---what they are offering is free of charge. They said that if people do not want religious witnesses to knock on their doors, they need to get signs that say "No Religious Proselytizing." In other words, people need to get special signs just for them. Nice.

As for the original topic, I tend to be moderately skeptical of people who claim to be persecuted because of their religion. From my experience, people who get "persecuted" for their religious beliefs are usually very obnoxious with their religious beliefs. They are the people who like to litter stores, parking lots, and various public buildings with pamphlets pertaining to their religion. They are the type of people who use their religion to exalt themselves above other people. They are the type of people who cannot carry on a conversation with another person without trying to lure that person into their religion.

I'm not saying this is always the case. I'm just saying this has been my observation. I am in the minority with my "religious" beliefs, and I am virtually never persecuted. Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. Perhaps if I lived in Alabama or Georgia as opposed to the Midwestern state in which I reside, it would be different.

[Evandril]

As for the original topic, I tend to be moderately skeptical of people who claim to be persecuted because of their religion. From my experience, people who get "persecuted" for their religious beliefs are usually very obnoxious with their religious beliefs. They are the people who like to litter stores, parking lots, and various public buildings with pamphlets pertaining to their religion. They are the type of people who use their religion to exalt themselves above other people. They are the type of people who cannot carry on a conversation with another person without trying to lure that person into their religion.

I'm not saying this is always the case. I'm just saying this has been my observation. I am in the minority with my "religious" beliefs, and I am virtually never persecuted. Then again, maybe I'm just lucky. Perhaps if I lived in Alabama or Georgia as opposed to the Midwestern state in which I reside, it would be different.

It does make a great difference where you live. I grew up in Colorado, and during my time there, was convinced that the whole 'discrimination' thing was far overplayed, in quite a few of it's forms...Then I got stationed in arkansas, and found things like a publicly active chapter of the kkk, and people being preached at by groups of people...With not 'believing' properly having an impact on your reviews at work, as well as most other aspects of the job.

[Gerrinson]

I've actually had a few door knockers tell me that "No Solicitation" signs do not apply to them, because (according to them) "solicit" means "sell," and they are not selling anything---what they are offering is free of charge. They said that if people do not want religious witnesses to knock on their doors, they need to get signs that say "No Religious Proselytizing." In other words, people need to get special signs just for them. Nice.

Actually, a 'No Trespassers' sign works quite well in this situation. If I A) did not invite you, or B) do not welcome you on my property then you are, in fact, a trespasser and I can tell you to leave or face legal prosecution. :D

And, in this case, prosecution is certainly not persecution. :p

As for as the original topic, I have rarely seen any true forms of religious persecution. There were a few instances of targeted vandilism 'attacks' (yes, the local papers & populace called spray painting an 'outright attack') on the local Methodist church (95% black members, and the 'attacks' seemed racially motivated - such as 'Jesus hates N-words') and there were a few similar 'attacks' on local synagogues (a few Nazi swastikas and the K-word - once). After a few instances at each, the whole thing just stopped.

I would guess idiotic teenagers with too much time and spray paint. While the vandalism was rather vile, it at least represents actual attempts at persecution.

I don't think I've ever seen or read about any actual persecution of Christianity itself in my neck of the woods. Although to hear the outspoken locals, you'd think we were dragging them to the coliseum every weekend and tossing them in with the lions.

Small and isolated incidents, like I mentioned, absolutely happen. I also think they are dealt with hastily and/or come to a rather abrubt end. But a nationwade case of persecution of the entire Christian religion in the US? I haven't seen any evidence to support that.

I think it's simply a rallying cry and that most cases of 'persecution' amount to 'I don't care if you're Christian, just stay out of my business.' Or at least, that's what I've personally seen, and that's the most to which I can attest.

[AFPheonix]

From what I've gathered from growing up fundie, it's persecution from media and general sinfulness. The fact that tv shows exist that aren't Christian qualify as persecuting a christian way of life.
It's odd, but there you go. Onward Christian soldiers, fighting for the cross and all that.