Racial insinuation?

[Fenrus]

Okay, taken from http://www.customerssuck.com/board/showthread.php?p=344933

Is it just a passing "this person happened to be THIS race" or is it more a "this person is this way because of his race".

Is it a PC thing to jump on someone who mentions race, or more a person problem with bigotry?

Your thoughts?

[AFPheonix]

I personally think it's an overreaction. It makes as much sense to harp on the race part as it does for someone to harp that she identified him as male. That could be sexist and all. :rolleyes:

[anriana]

I personally think it's an overreaction. It makes as much sense to harp on the race part as it does for someone to harp that she identified him as male. That could be sexist and all. :rolleyes:

English practically requires identifying the gender of someone you're telling a story about as the correct and less awkward pronouns are gender-based. Hir and ze haven't caught on quite yet.


How many times do you hear "We called him cranky white guy?" or "cranky straight guy?" Demographic descriptions are only used to point out and Other minorities, that is why people get upset.


Personally everyone I know who needlessly points out other people's races is an actual racist and it's hard to remember my sig everytime I encounter a new person doing the same.

[AFPheonix]

You can identify by pronouns, but my point was the specific descriptor of "guy". They could have easily described him as "that cranky indian person", yet they did not, and no one jumped on the OP's case for being sexist for identifying his gender.
Nothing from the post on CS indicates that they were describing him as Indian because his crankiness was due to his ethnicity. It is simply a descriptor, and should not be any more significant than calling him the "Cranky guy who always wears a red shirt".

[ArcticChicken]

I think the problem people are having isn't the fact that race was mentioned, it's that race was mentioned in conjunction with a negative term, i.e. cranky. If he had been the Sexy Indian Guy, would you have gotten on the OP's case?

Race is a perfectly valid descriptor, so long as you understand that description is all that it is being used for. For example, the community I live in is mostly white, with the second largest population group being black, and any other races coming in a poor third. So, were he to walk into my store, he'd be "That cranky Indian guy", because he's a lot easier to identify that way then by saying "That one really cranky guy, about yea tall, shortish hair, with the scar on his jawline", where as a white or black person is "That cranky, elderly <insert race here> lady, with the whiny daughter" because saying "That cranky <white/black> lady isn't going to narrow down the options very much.

[DesignFox]

I avoid using race as a descriptor as much as possible on the boards only because written word is so easy to misinterpret.

I personally see no problem with using ethnicity as a descriptor- it's not racist to describe someone by mentioning the color of their skin or their background.

It would be prejudiced if the descriptor was used by saying "all indian people are cranky" or "all white people are trash" or "all jews are cheap."

But saying to someone, "Oh yea! He's the tall black guy!" isn't a racist remark. It is simply a way of differentiating that tall guy from the white tall guy.

*shrug* people are so sensitive about everything and it's just plain silly.

I think the mods get on top of it a bit because such discussions don't normally end well. The preference is to head off a problem before it starts.

As for the sexist thing...well...I guess that's an interesting point. If you say, "the cranky guy" no one is worried that you described the person's gender. They take it for what it is- a description of the person.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I just think it's being oversensitive to the point that the person complaining is the one who seems racist to me, not the person using the description.

For example, I have two friends who have the same first name; some of my friends only know them by their first names, so seeing as one is white and one is black, I describe them as such to differentuate as using the surname would be pointless, as some of my friends don't know either as well, or only know one and not the other. Incidently, my black friend has called me "crazy white girl" before; he's not being racist either, just stating a fact. ;)

[Ree]

If I'm not mistaken, using the word "Indian" to describe someone of native or aboriginal descent is derogatory. Using it to describe someone from India is probably fine.
The OP didn't specify, but since he is not from North America, I am inclined to believe it was the latter usage, so it was not used in the less PC manner.

In that thread though, it just came across as a potentially problematic and insulting usage.

The whole joke was based on a name that was slightly mocking of the guy's race.
"Cranky Indian Guy II".
It's too 'cutesy' and could be construed as a veiled racial comment.

Really, why is the guy's race relevant?
He's a cranky guy who happens to be from India.
How is the joke any funnier by mentioning his race?
If it becomes less funny by taking the mention of race out of the equation, then perhaps the mod, who ended up being raked over the coals, had a point after all by questioning the inclusion of the man's race in the joking and mocking nickname.

Oh yeah...and people need to learn to use the freakin' report button. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v219/lilsis1125/report.gif

[ebonyknight]

Well, since the thread is closed, I couldn't clarify.

While I explained to Snowbird, my rationale for finding the issue (in general) offensive. I did not find the OP offensive at all.

The person he was talking about was called "Cranky Indian Guy". Should whomever first coined the term have used his race? Probably no, but Edible was relating the guy's (in essence) name. And then went on to relate it to CIG II. The sins of the father......

Anyway.....

While I don't find the use of racial descriptors racially malicious, they are indeed an indicative sign of institutional racism.

Ironically enough, I had this type of conversation with an Indian girl in college (my GF's roomate). A guy had stopped by and she took a message and wrote it down (this happened a lot). My GF and I returned and got the message. Next time I saw her (I was feeling in a mentally frisky mood) and asked her why she pointed out that he was black? She got a confused look on her face and asked me what I meant. Well, yesterday when "felix" stopped by (not the black guy) you didn't mention that a white guy stopped by. Why did you feel the need to point out that "pablo" (black guy) was black but didn't mention that "felix" was white? She told me I was being silly and I pressed her why? She ironically got mad at me and wanted to drop the subject, because I was offending her. :D

IMO it's an institutional conditioning that "white" is "normal" and doesn't need to be mentioned. "non-white" is not normal and must be pointed out as being different.

Now I will admit that as a Gen "X"er I am quite surprised and pleased about how the millennium generation gets along. Unlike my generation and previous ones, I don't think I ever hear the millennium generation using such descriptors or have the apprehension about race that the older gens do. While being PC now has "whites" on edge (ironic), the millennium generation seems oblivious to the tension between older generations.

Quite an improvement. Now if they just weren't so damn self centered!!!!! :D

[Zyanya]

While I don't find the use of racial descriptors racially malicious, they are indeed an indicative sign of institutional racism.

The high school I went to was predominately Mexican.

When a friend described me to someone else as 'the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class', are you saying I should have been offended?

The reason it is used as a descriptor is simply that it is a good descriptor in most cases, especially in areas where the predominate race is that of a different ethnicity.

There was no racism meant in the statement my friend made, he just picked the quickest way to narrow down who I was.

While some who make the statement may be racist, it should not be assumed the statement itself is inherently racist nor based in racism.

For better or worse, I am blond and thus look 'white'. Oh teh noes, how dare someone notice?

[ebonyknight]

I thought my statement was quite clear. :confused:

While I don't find them to be intentionally racist (IE your friends reference to you), it is indicative of a society based in racism.

She decided to use race instead of other descriptors (your hair color, your build, your eye color, etc) to single you out. While this is a generality, not a lot of "mexicans" have blond hair or blue eyes. Assuming these apply to you, they could have been used, rather than "the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class."

What if you were obese? Would you find it appropriate for her to call you "that fat chick in Mrs. Redd's class"? Or were missing a limb, "that gimp in Mrs. Redd's class"?

After all "it is a good descriptor in most cases".

Just because there is no malicious intent on her part, doesn't mean it's not wrong. I am sure you would say the same about blacks calling each other "nigger". They may not have malicious intent, but it's still wrong.

[Snowbird]

I wanted to share something that I thought was appropriate, copied and pasted from the Mirriam-Webster online dictionary:

Main Entry: rac·ism
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2 : racial prejudice or discrimination
- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

Main Entry: 1prej·u·dice
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'pre-j&-d&s
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Latin praejudicium previous judgment, damage, from prae- + judicium judgment -- more at JUDICIAL
1 : injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights ; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims
2 a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

I'm afraid I still don't see how using a race to clarify someone's identity is seen as racist or prejudiced. I will say, however, if someone used a nationality or race as a slur in any way, then of course it is offensive and should not continue.

As to the suggestion that calling someone 'the fat chick' or 'the gimp in so and so's class' is in the same spectrum, those terms are derogatory and offensive from the start. I suppose it is all in a person's intentions and that is where I believe the problem began; assumption of intent.

It is entirely possible that the Indian roommate (and yes, the race was previously used as a clarifying description), knew that whoever the message was for knew 'the white guy' was named Felix and needed no further prompting. It's hard to say because we don't know. I will say she was most likely put on the defensive from the get go by being accused of something that people find utterly offensive and thus reacted as she did. Only she could answer that, however.

The definitions are pretty clear and I truly can't agree that using a race as a description is within either boundary unless used, as I said, as a slur. I would not be offended personally if someone described me by my race. I really don't understand why mentioning someone's race is seen on the same level as demeaning and degrading name calling.

I'm sorry about the post length, it's just something I've been thinking about for a while now. It's good to know other people's opinions too. :D

[jayel]

I am in the camp of I use race as a descriptor in certain situations, when it will help accurately explain to someone who I am talking about. If we are at the grocery store, for instance, I would not say "the black cashier", because there are so many cashiers it would be easier to say "checkout 12" or whatever. But, if I am at a party where only one or two guests are black, it would be easier to tell someone "the black girl with the blue dress was in my biology class last year" rather than saying, "the girl in the blue dress, with brown hair, brown eyes, standing by the punch bowl," etc.

She decided to use race instead of other descriptors (your hair color, your build, your eye color, etc) to single you out. While this is a generality, not a lot of "mexicans" have blond hair or blue eyes. Assuming these apply to you, they could have been used, rather than "the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class."

To me, what you are suggesting is just silly, because it's like tip-toeing around the elephant in the room. Sure, you could describe the 'white' girl as the 'blond' girl, or the 'blue eyed' girl, but seriously, why bother? The fact that she is white is the most obvious and notable difference between her and her classmates, and therefore will garner recognition more quickly than beating around the bush with other, more minor descriptions. Why hint around, hoping someone will catch on, when you could just say what you mean and be done with it. That's trying too hard to prove you're not racist, imo.

What if you were obese? Would you find it appropriate for her to call you "that fat chick in Mrs. Redd's class"? Or were missing a limb, "that gimp in Mrs. Redd's class"?

Using this logic, you are implying that calling someone black or white or mexican or whatever, is just as bad as calling them fat or crippled. One is derogatory, one is a factual statement. This type of thinking further stresses that certain races are thought of as 'bad', more so than just acknowledging the race for reference and being done with it.

As far as your girlfriend's roommate, she probably used descriptors that stood out the most to her, without realizing how it would sound, or that it would be unnecessary to use them with you. I doubt she had any racist intent, and personally it would have pissed me off if someone had implied such by questioning me like you did her. That sort of thing is the reason people are on pins and needles these days, trying so hard not to accidentally offend someone. On the other hand, I guess I would have been better able to explain myself than she was.

[Zyanya]

While I don't find them to be intentionally racist (IE your friends reference to you), it is indicative of a society based in racism.

Actually, the fact that you think the descriptor 'white' is the equivalent of the descriptor 'fat chick' says a lot more about you than it does about the person who originally used the term 'white'.

[MystyGlyttyr]

I never really thought of references to race in a story as anything other than an adjective, myself. White girl = girl who's skin is white, black guy = guy who's skin is black. Okay. Got it. Next paragraph.

To me, acknowledging someone's race isn't the same as making a big deal out of their race. It's just one more characteristic, on the same list as "tall" or "annoying" or "gang-banger" or what-have-you. All it does for me is form a more complete mental image. And, and this is my opinion, assuming that just because someone makes note of a race automatically = racist is just kind of stupid. I mean, it's a very rare person who is well and truly "colorblind". I mean, if you see someone, it's one of or THE first thing you might notice about them. But there's a big difference between just noticing "this person is ______" and assuming "Because this person is ______, then they _____."

Maybe being faceblind as it turns out I am makes it different, though. If I try to just go by a person's face, I'll mix up black, white, male, female, etc. There were people I went to school with for YEARS who I could never tell apart just by their faces, I had to use in one case, their haircuts, and in another case, their eye colors, even though apparently neither pair looked anything alike to anyone else. I HAVE to take stock of everything about them, and if it's a couple of females with similar clothes and hairstyles and heights and weights and whatever else, the only thing I have left to use is skin tone.

(And if THAT'S the same...well, then I'm fucked, as a pair of black women with identical hair cuts and wearing the same dark pink business suits found out about a month ago here at the paper. On the other hand, my mixing up their business had no negative effects on either AND introduced them to one another and has made them become good friends...silver lining, LOL.)

[Rapscallion]

I find it interesting that you're commenting on this one, Mysty. A while ago, just after we introduced new member moderation, we had a couple of neo-nazis try to stir up crap on the board. A prompt banning followed, and Nightangel (if memory serves) used Google on their names. We found a racist message board dedicated to white supremacy, and they quoted one of your posts in graceless terms.

I'm not giving you the URL. I know you'll want it, but it's unpleasant stuff. There are minds you cannot change, no matter what you say or do.

There are complaints that we're overly zealous and politically correct on CS.com. Maybe we are, maybe we aren't. We've seen true racism, though, and one of the people trying to stir it up had three hundred posts. We looked back and their posts had certain little signs and attitudes.

We're careful, but we're careful for a reason.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

Sure, you could describe the 'white' girl as the 'blond' girl, or the 'blue eyed' girl, but seriously, why bother? The fact that she is white is the most obvious and notable difference between her and her classmates

You're sort of proving ebonyknight's point here. In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin. Skin tones don't differ as greatly as hair colour.

[MystyGlyttyr]

I find it interesting that you're commenting on this one, Mysty. A while ago, just after we introduced new member moderation, we had a couple of neo-nazis try to stir up crap on the board. A prompt banning followed, and Nightangel (if memory serves) used Google on their names. We found a racist message board dedicated to white supremacy, and they quoted one of your posts in graceless terms.

I'm not giving you the URL. I know you'll want it, but it's unpleasant stuff. There are minds you cannot change, no matter what you say or do.

Heh, don't worry about it, Raps. If it is who I think it is, they were pissed at me long before I ever came to CS.com...and I've probably heard much worse from much better. I take people like that hating me as a compliment, as I would never want to be appreciated by men with such tiny minds and tiny...other things. ;)

I'm not against the mods in this case, despite how my post sounds. I know you guys are just doing your jobs. I just do wish this didn't HAVE to be a part of your job.

[jayel]

You're sort of proving ebonyknight's point here. In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin. Skin tones don't differ as greatly as hair colour.

Oh, please. Since when does "I see color" = "I am a racist"?

I'm not a racist but I'm also not blind. Differences in race are generally pretty distinguishing characteristics, and describe a person quite definitively. Seeing these differences does not imply that thay are bad, or that the person underneath is bad. Aren't we supposed to cherish our differences anyway?

I'd like to add that I think in general, when describing a person, place, or thing, we tend to give the most basic description first, followed by more details if necesary. "Let's go to a restaurant. McDonald's. The one on N. Parkway."

[Boozy]

Oh, please. Since when does "I see color" = "I am a racist"?

No one is saying that. I think you need to re-read ebonyknight's original post.

[blas87]

Seems to me white people are also described in great detail........although no one writes a story like "So there was this obnoxious caucasian man in the store tonight", but they'll write stuff like "This pasty white guy" or "This fat white guy"

[jayel]

No one is saying that. I think you need to re-read ebonyknight's original post.

Actually, it sounds like what you were saying. Had nothing to do with ebonyknight's post.

In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin.

Were you not implying that because I notice skin color/ racial heritage more so than I notice hair color, that I have underlying racial tendencies? Because that's sure what it sounded like.

[ebonyknight]

Actually, the fact that you think the descriptor 'white' is the equivalent of the descriptor 'fat chick' says a lot more about you than it does about the person who originally used the term 'white'.

As someone once correctly pointed out, you don't know anything about me.

I'd like to add that I think in general, when describing a person, place, or thing, we tend to give the most basic description first, followed by more details if necesary. "Let's go to a restaurant. McDonald's. The one on N. Parkway."

And what makes race the "most basic description" as opposed to hair color, weight, etc? If we strive for a color-blind society (that's what I hear all the time), then why continue to use labels that prevent that?

I doubt she had any racist intent, and personally it would have pissed me off if someone had implied such by questioning me like you did her.

Oh, please. Since when does "I see color" = "I am a racist"?

I'm not a racist but I'm also not blind. Differences in race are generally pretty distinguishing characteristics, and describe a person quite definitively. Seeing these differences does not imply that thay are bad, or that the person underneath is bad. Aren't we supposed to cherish our differences anyway?


*sigh*

Try re-reading my posts.

I will try again for the third time.

While I don't believe it is indicative of "I am a racist", it is a symptom of a racist society.

I don't understand why that is such a hard concept. Several people have implied that I believe them to be racist because they use racial descriptors, when I have clearly said several times that, that is not the case.

I find it quite funny the first reaction is "I am not racist", to any issue involving race.

[Boozy]

Were you not implying that because I notice skin color/ racial heritage more so than I notice hair color, that I have underlying racial tendencies? Because that's sure what it sounded like.

No, I am not saying that you personally are racist.

You and I are products of an inherently racist society. This society recognizes race as an important distinguishing feature between people. Even if you and I disagree, we still have to live in this society, which means we are forced to notice racial differences.

No system can accurately examine itself. Because we are products of our own society, its hard for us to determine the exact extent of its racism. But the fact that we see differences in skin tone before that of differences in say, height or hair colour, says a lot about the issue.

[Zyanya]

As someone once correctly pointed out, you don't know anything about me.

Nor do you know anything about me, or my friend.

Yet you feel content to call us racist because we noticed something.

I turn it around, and point out the racism in what you noticed.

Sure doesn't feel good now, does it? Kind of makes you angry. Puts you on the defensive a bit? Sure seems like an attack on your nature, like I'm implying you are a bad person for happening to notice something. Of course, since it is untrue, it's extremely insulting and rude to imply.


So why don't you knock off the hypocrisy?

Sometimes the best way to describe a rose is to call it a rose, and it's in no way degrading to the rose.

No system can accurately examine itself. Because we are products of our own society, its hard for us to determine the exact extent of its racism. But the fact that we see differences in skin tone before that of differences in say, height or hair colour, says a lot about the issue.

The skin is the single largest organ in the body. Why are you shocked that it's noticeable and thus may appear in a brief description of a person?

Were you not implying that because I notice skin color/ racial heritage more so than I notice hair color, that I have underlying racial tendencies? Because that's sure what it sounded like.

Yes, that is exactly what they are implying, though they are trying to backtrack on it.

[Zyanya]

You're sort of proving ebonyknight's point here. In a completely colour-blind and non-racist society, the first thing thing someone would notice about a blond girl in a room of Mexicans would be the blond hair, not the pale skin. Skin tones don't differ as greatly as hair colour.

The epidermis is the single largest organ in the body.

The average woman's skin makes up about 1/12 of her body weight and covers approximately 22 square feet.


Why are you so shocked and insulted that it is a noticeable feature on your body?

[DesignFox]

But why should we have to be "color-blind?"

Why is it racist for society to notice someone's skin color? It's a characteristic of the person, afterall.

Seriously. At the store I work at, all of us were white except for one guy. So, it was easiest for customers to say they spoke to the "black guy" than trying to pick out which of the other two guys that work there they spoke to. It was his most identifying feature compared to the other two. Not a racist slam against him.

For awhile, I was the only chick in the store. So, customers would say they spoke to "the girl that works here." Well, my being the only girl in the store, that was the best way for them to identify me.

Now we only have one guy. So, if a customer forgets his name, they ask for "the guy I talked to" because he's the ONLY one.

I think if someone is in the minority of a group either because of their race or gender, it's not racist or sexist to point them out that way. It's just the easiest way to describe them without getting into specifics- which a lot of people may not remember off the top of their heads.

If I were in a room full of black people, I'd half expect people to point me out by saying "the white girl." I'd be the ONLY one, wouldn't that be the easiest way to find me?

I don't see anything wrong with this.

I think everyone was upset with ediblehat because she/he? used the word "cranky" in conjuction with "Indian" which somehow automatically implies that he was cranky because he was Indian.

I don't see it that way...but apparently others do. I just avoid using race descriptors in my stories to keep from upsetting the sensitive people.

I think it's natural for people to use descriptors for types of people that are different from their "norm."

I tend to picture everyone as white unless told otherwise simply because I'm white, I've grown up with white people, went to school with white people, lived with white people. It's just the way it is. Although equally, I have a different picture in my head for "white trash" than I do for "normal" white people.

I'm sure if I were Mexican, I'd picture everyone with those traits and only see differently if the person had been described to me.

I don't think it's racist. I don't think it's bad. It's just the way we're wired. I don't picture people in fifty shades of tan, brown, black, red and yellow...I picture most people to look like me unless descriptions show me otherwise.

I think for most of what we discuss on CS, the person's race doesn't really matter to the story; unless the customer was being sucky by pulling race into the scenario.

So, it probably isn't necessary to paint so clear a picture of the person in question. I can see how it gets misinterpreted fairly quickly. But I think it's equally wrong to always assume that the person is picking on someone's race or gender.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and unless they come right out with a slur, I don't paint them with the racist brush.

[ebonyknight]

Nor do you know anything about me, or my friend.

Yet you feel content to call us racist because we noticed something.

I turn it around, and point out the racism in what you noticed.

Sure doesn't feel good now, does it? Kind of makes you angry. Puts you on the defensive a bit? Sure seems like an attack on your nature, like I'm implying you are a bad person for happening to notice something. Of course, since it is untrue, it's extremely insulting and rude to imply.


So why don't you knock off the hypocrisy?

Please quote me as to where I was "content to call you racist"????????????????

[Zyanya]

Okay.

You even confessed when you told the story of you harassing someone about their supposed racism until they got mad, then laugh because you offended them.

Then you acted like saying someone was black was the equivalent of calling someone a 'gimp'.


You got offended at my insinuation, but didn't hesitate to make insinuations first, nor to harass someone until they had to get mad at you and call their anger 'ironic'.

Your basic premise is that if I notice skin, it must be because of inherent racism, and have nothing to do with the skin being the largest and most visible organ in the body.

Thus you self-righteously assume I must be racist, even if subconsciously.



And yet you get angry when the same insinuation is directed at you, with more valid reasoning behind it.


Knock off the hypocrisy. Your race card is no good here.


While I don't find the use of racial descriptors racially malicious, they are indeed an indicative sign of institutional racism.

Ironically enough, I had this type of conversation with an Indian girl in college (my GF's roomate). A guy had stopped by and she took a message and wrote it down (this happened a lot). My GF and I returned and got the message. Next time I saw her (I was feeling in a mentally frisky mood) and asked her why she pointed out that he was black? She got a confused look on her face and asked me what I meant. Well, yesterday when "felix" stopped by (not the black guy) you didn't mention that a white guy stopped by. Why did you feel the need to point out that "pablo" (black guy) was black but didn't mention that "felix" was white? She told me I was being silly and I pressed her why? She ironically got mad at me and wanted to drop the subject, because I was offending her.

While I don't find them to be intentionally racist (IE your friends reference to you), it is indicative of a society based in racism.

She decided to use race instead of other descriptors (your hair color, your build, your eye color, etc) to single you out. While this is a generality, not a lot of "mexicans" have blond hair or blue eyes. Assuming these apply to you, they could have been used, rather than "the white girl in Mrs. Redd's class."

What if you were obese? Would you find it appropriate for her to call you "that fat chick in Mrs. Redd's class"? Or were missing a limb, "that gimp in Mrs. Redd's class"?

After all "it is a good descriptor in most cases".

Just because there is no malicious intent on her part, doesn't mean it's not wrong. I am sure you would say the same about blacks calling each other "nigger". They may not have malicious intent, but it's still wrong.

[ebonyknight]

You still haven't answered my question. I am not going to let this go.

*Please quote me as to where I was "content to call you racist"????????????????*

[jayel]

When you tell someone that their actions are indicative of an inherently racist society, that implies to me that you are saying they have racist tendencies, thus acting like a racist. Not a hard pattern to follow.

I really don't get why it's such a horrible thing to notice racial differences. Especially when so many people are into celebrating their heritage these days. Is it only okay for me to notice it if you point it out first? Perhaps after I concede that your race is made up of great and wonderful people? What if I told a Mexican that I loved authentic Mexican food? Would that be racist of me because I noticed that he/ she was Mexican?

This 'color-blind society' is a bunch of bleeding heart b.s. What's the goal here? To create some sort of generic generation where everyone is the same? We will always be able to see the differences in others, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We are all unique individuals within unique heritages. We're NOT all the same, and frankly I think it's a betrayal of yourself to expect others to ignore the things that make you, you. As long as I treat each individual with respect and dignity (unless I have a reason not to) there is nothing wrong with recognizing and appreciating the differences between cultures.

As far as using race as an identifying quality, appearance-wise there's a much greater difference between an Asian and an African than a blond and a brunette. So yeah, I'm going to notice ethnicity before hair color, and so will the majority of the people.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I tend to picture everyone as white unless told otherwise simply because I'm white, I've grown up with white people, went to school with white people, lived with white people. It's just the way it is. Although equally, I have a different picture in my head for "white trash" than I do for "normal" white people.

I'm sure if I were Mexican, I'd picture everyone with those traits and only see differently if the person had been described to me.

I remember reading somewhere that apparently, what you said is what people do for pictures of Jesus. Black people paint him as black, white people paint him as white. It's cuz they automatically see him as being of their own race. Not dragging religion into this debate, just thought of it when I read your post. ;)

[Zyanya]

You still haven't answered my question. I am not going to let this go.

*Please quote me as to where I was "content to call you racist"????????????????*

You were quoted. The relevant parts were bolded.

You made an insinuation, then got pissed off when a similar insinuation was made towards you.

You want me to come right out and quote you saying the exact phrase 'Zyanya is a racist'. Yet I notice an interesting lack of you quoting anyone directly making a racist remark when making your heavy implications of racism. The real problem here seems to be your inherent (and racist) belief that all white people are racist.

You did unto others, and it was done unto you. Now you are crying foul.

Your hypocrisy has been fully exposed. Learn, and move on.


And speaking of answering questions, when are you going to answer mine?

Why are you so shocked and insulted that the organ that makes up 1/12th of your body weight is a noticeable feature?

[jayel]

I just want to say (while I'm thinking about it) that if people feel uncomfortable because they look different, that is their issue, not mine. Stop projecting your uncertain self image onto me, just because I happen to be aware of said differences. I may feel a little strange if someone points me out as the 'white girl', but no more than I do when I am called out on anything else that draws attention to me. I guarantee you I'm not going home crying about it. For someone to get upset because they were referred to as a member of their own race indicates to me that they, themselves, have a problem with said race, rather than the person who said it.*


*As long as it was not said in a derrogatory manner. I admit that this happens in some instances, but for the purposes of this discussion, I haven't seen it as an example.

[DesignFox]

Jayel, I agree. I don't understand why being referred to as a member of your own race is so insulting.

[Boozy]

Were you not implying that because I notice skin color/ racial heritage more so than I notice hair color, that I have underlying racial tendencies? Because that's sure what it sounded like.
Yes, that is exactly what they are implying, though they are trying to backtrack on it.

It is not necessary for you to speak to other people's intentions, especially if you plan to do so inaccurately. Ebonyknight and I can speak for ourselves.

And for the record, I imply nothing. If I have something to say, I try to do so clearly and without ambiguity.

I've been as clear as I can be on this point. I don't know how else to explain myself. There is a difference between being a racist and being a product of a racist society, and if you can't or won't acknowledge that, I have nothing left to say.

[jayel]

I don't have to be a product of a racist society to note some distinguishing physical differences between myself and an Asian/ Mexican/ African. They're really kinda obvious. ;)

I would also like to say that at 27, I am fully capable of using discernment regardless of my upbringing and social experience, to know the difference between right and wrong, racist and not racist. Product of your environment is a cop out for weak people who do whatever they want to do. I take personal responsibility for my actions, opinions, and attitudes.

I'm not really sure what you think the difference is in being racist and being a product of a racsist environment? Does one mean I'm a bad person because of my racist opinions, and the other means I have racist opinions but can't be held accountable for them? (Cop out) Does a racist hate people because of their differences, while a p.o.r.e is simply more aware of the differences? (Not sure why that's such a bad thing, as long as they are judging the person individually.) The way I see it, the distinction between racist and p.o.r.e is either non-existant, or so great that they're hardly worth comparing. I'd like to hear if you have better examples.

For the record, I don't really think society is all that racist anymore. I think a lot of what we experience now is backlash from having "You're racist!" crap shoved down our throats constantly; e.g., some of the comments in this thread.

This doesn't speak for all ethnicities, but I (being white) went to an almost all black college. Seriously, there was maybe one other white person in ONE out of all my classes each semester. I was never treated poorly, and at times felt welcome. But I was more of a curiosity than anything, I think. Everybody wanted to know why 'the white girl' was at a predominantly black school when LSU was right up the road. I took no offense. I thought it was kind of interesting to be the minority for once. Gave me some insight and new perspective.

[anriana]

For the record, I don't really think society is all that racist anymore. I think a lot of what we experience now is backlash from having "You're racist!" crap shoved down our throats constantly; e.g., some of the comments in this thread.

It's great that you personally haven't experienced racism. Lucky you! That doesn't mean society isn't all that racist anymore. Have you followed any of the dialogue over the Dem nomination? Have you heard of the Jena 6 at all?

I really don't get why it's such a horrible thing to notice racial differences. Especially when so many people are into celebrating their heritage these days. Is it only okay for me to notice it if you point it out first? Perhaps after I concede that your race is made up of great and wonderful people? What if I told a Mexican that I loved authentic Mexican food? Would that be racist of me because I noticed that he/ she was Mexican?

Would you seriously walk up to a Latino person and say "Oh, me encanta comida mexicana?" How do you know they're Mexican? How do you know they eat authentic Mexican food? How do you know they're not as Americanized as you? I am picturing this in my head and it reminds me of the scene in Bend It Like Beckham where Jules' mom is talking to Jess about her culture and mispronouncing her full name.

This 'color-blind society' is a bunch of bleeding heart b.s. What's the goal here? To create some sort of generic generation where everyone is the same? We will always be able to see the differences in others, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We are all unique individuals within unique heritages. We're NOT all the same, and frankly I think it's a betrayal of yourself to expect others to ignore the things that make you, you. As long as I treat each individual with respect and dignity (unless I have a reason not to) there is nothing wrong with recognizing and appreciating the differences between cultures.


And I think it is truly obnoxious to assume that you can determine other people's cultures and "unique heritages" based on physical racial clues. My partner has dark skin/hair/eyes and a large nose - he's had people assume he's Latino, Samoan, and Chinese (his racial background is none of those). P eople are always assuming that he is Buddhist or a big fan of The Rock or that it makes sense to call him Latino ethnic slurs, but he is culturally American, and far more so than me, but people treat us completely different because of our races. Is he betraying himself by not adhering to the culture you see in him? Would you respectfully tell him how much you like Mexican food?

[ebonyknight]

You were quoted. The relevant parts were bolded.

And still fail to answer the quest

You made an insinuation, then got pissed off when a similar insinuation was made towards you.

You want me to come right out and quote you saying the exact phrase 'Zyanya is a racist'. Yet I notice an interesting lack of you quoting anyone directly making a racist remark when making your heavy implications of racism. The real problem here seems to be your inherent (and racist) belief that all white people are racist.

You did unto others, and it was done unto you. Now you are crying foul.

Your hypocrisy has been fully exposed. Learn, and move on.


And speaking of answering questions, when are you going to answer mine?

Why are you so shocked and insulted that the organ that makes up 1/12th of your body weight is a noticeable feature?

Answering questions is a two way street.

Again, Please quote me as to where I was "content to call you racist"????????????????

[ebonyknight]

When you tell someone that their actions are indicative of an inherently racist society, that implies to me that you are saying they have racist tendencies, thus acting like a racist. Not a hard pattern to follow.

I can act like I am the Governor of Delaware, doesn't mean I am.

I really don't get why it's such a horrible thing to notice racial differences. Especially when so many people are into celebrating their heritage these days. Is it only okay for me to notice it if you point it out first? Perhaps after I concede that your race is made up of great and wonderful people? What if I told a Mexican that I loved authentic Mexican food? Would that be racist of me because I noticed that he/ she was Mexican?

Hey, if you don't get it, you don't get it. I can only explain it so many times. Different things offend different people. And as you can see, what's minor to you and me can REALLY offend someone else. :)

This 'color-blind society' is a bunch of bleeding heart b.s. What's the goal here? To create some sort of generic generation where everyone is the same? We will always be able to see the differences in others, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. We are all unique individuals within unique heritages. We're NOT all the same, and frankly I think it's a betrayal of yourself to expect others to ignore the things that make you, you. As long as I treat each individual with respect and dignity (unless I have a reason not to) there is nothing wrong with recognizing and appreciating the differences between cultures.

If justice should be blind, why not society?

As far as using race as an identifying quality, appearance-wise there's a much greater difference between an Asian and an African than a blond and a brunette. So yeah, I'm going to notice ethnicity before hair color, and so will the majority of the people.

Anriana, beat me to it. How do you know that someone is African or Asian? My wife is mistaken for being Hispanic ALL the time. Doesn't mean it's correct. If you call an Indian a Pakistani or vice versa, they WILL get offended. I had a friend in grade school who's mom was white and dad was black. His hair was straight as can be, and looked white, except his skin was quite dark. I am sure no one thought twice about thinking he is Arabic, yet he was neither.

And these days, you call someone Arabic who isn't, you are going to piss someone off. Hell, if you call a Persian an Arab, you might start a fight. So just because it's no big deal to you, doesn't mean it means nothing to everyone else.

I remember on this very board I referred to a mod as he, instead of she and someone took minor offense to it. Did I think it was a big deal, no. But I understood how it could be taken offensively and understood their position. I apologized and corrected myself. Sometimes, it not just about being right, it's about making an effort to get along.

[Zyanya]

It is not necessary for you to speak to other people's intentions, especially if you plan to do so inaccurately. Ebonyknight and I can speak for ourselves.

Then perhaps you should take the same advice and stop implying people are racist when they happen to notice what color the largest organ on a human body is. Hypocrisy is an ugly trait.

[Zyanya]

Again, Please quote me as to where I was "content to call you racist"????????????????

I did.

Twice now, in fact.

But please, continue to try very hard not to admit to your own hypocrisy. It might mean you have to learn something.

Whatever, willful ignorance isn't worth my time.

[ebonyknight]

I did.

Twice now, in fact.

But please, continue to try very hard not to admit to your own hypocrisy. It might mean you have to learn something.

Whatever, willful ignorance isn't worth my time.

I'm a little slow. ;) Humor me.

Please quote me as to where I was "content to call you racist".

The questions only get more difficult. :p

[jayel]

I can always tell that a debate is on it's way over, and the opposition has no more points to make, when they start arguing semantics and nit picking over every small wording issue.

[Zyanya]

I can always tell that a debate is on it's way over, and the opposition has no more points to make, when they start arguing semantics and nit picking over every small wording issue.

I'm done dealing with someone who is flailing about desperately trying not to get the point. If he demonstrates a desire for honest debate, then yea, I might respond to him again. But looks to me like he's just going to keep going with the double standards and hypocrisy, so he's not worth my time.

[jayel]

It's great that you personally haven't experienced racism. Lucky you! That doesn't mean society isn't all that racist anymore. Have you followed any of the dialogue over the Dem nomination? Have you heard of the Jena 6 at all?

I live in freaking Louisiana, so yes I've heard of the Jena 6. Again, I think it mainly stems from backlash.


And I think it is truly obnoxious to assume that you can determine other people's cultures and "unique heritages" based on physical racial clues.

Just assume I know he's Mexican for a fact. This is an example of you twisting my statement and grabbing at straws to make some sort of argument.


I can act like I am the Governor of Delaware, doesn't mean I am.

No one's been able to tell me the important difference between acting like a racist and being one, so I'm not worried about this argument anymore.


If justice should be blind, why not society?

Justice is blind in that we're all treated the same, not that we don't notice each others differences. Which is what I've been saying is okay all along.



Sometimes, it not just about being right, it's about making an effort to get along.

I get along pretty well with most people. But I, knowing in my heart I am not a racist, am not going to walk around on my tippy toes and worrying about how every little thing I say may be miconstrued. If I say something you take as racism, it's your problem, not mine, because I will know that's not how I meant it.

[jayel]

I'm done dealing with someone who is flailing about desperately trying not to get the point. If he demonstrates a desire for honest debate, then yea, I might respond to him again. But looks to me like he's just going to keep going with the double standards and hypocrisy, so he's not worth my time.

Yeah, I think we've made our points very clearly and now they're trying to twist every possible scenario into a pretzel. The important points have been made and I think they stand. So yeah, there's not much more we can say here. It's been fun though!

[Zyanya]

Yeah, I think we've made our points very clearly and now they're trying to twist every possible scenario into a pretzel. The important points have been made and I think they stand. So yeah, there's not much more we can say here. It's been fun though!

Well, there is one more thing they've neglected to think about.

Sometimes, noticing 'race' is a good thing, especially as it pertains to culture.

As an example, let's say people from the island of Krakow have a tendency towards some particular physical traits. They also find it deeply offensive when someone offers to shake hands, apparently in their culture the same gesture used to offer to shake hands is part of their sign language for 'your mother sucks elephant dick'.

So someone with the particular physical traits of someone from the island of Krakow comes into your place of business and you must greet them. You notice the traits, and keep your hands at your sides instead of reaching out to shake hands.


No racism, simple politeness, but a couple in this thread would find your actions offensive.


No matter. They'll refuse to get this point too. Probably imply I'm a racist for using an elephant in my example or something. Or swear up and down 'but that's different' without ever covering WHY it's different.

I suppose I could have used the real-life examples of left hand vs right hand, soles of the feet, pointing with the wrong finger, etc...

[ebonyknight]

I can always tell that a debate is on it's way over, and the opposition has no more points to make, when they start arguing semantics and nit picking over every small wording issue.

Give me a break. Zyan said I called them racist and that was the entire basis for Zyan's getting bent out of shape. I never did, they couldn't quote me and you acknowledged that.

When you tell someone that their actions are indicative of an inherently racist society, that implies to me that you are saying they have racist tendencies, thus acting like a racist. Not a hard pattern to follow.

There was nothing to imply since I had stated earlier on three occasions (twice to you, ironically) that I don't believe that an individual doing this was based on racism, but is because of institutional racism. Despite that disclaimer if you want to put words in my mouth..... *shrug*

But I did notice you responded to everything except.

Anriana, beat me to it. How do you know that someone is African or Asian? My wife is mistaken for being Hispanic ALL the time. Doesn't mean it's correct. If you call an Indian a Pakistani or vice versa, they WILL get offended. I had a friend in grade school who's mom was white and dad was black. His hair was straight as can be, and looked white, except his skin was quite dark. I am sure no one thought twice about thinking he is Arabic, yet he was neither.

And these days, you call someone Arabic who isn't, you are going to piss someone off. Hell, if you call a Persian an Arab, you might start a fight. So just because it's no big deal to you, doesn't mean it means nothing to everyone else.

I remember on this very board I referred to a mod as he, instead of she and someone took minor offense to it. Did I think it was a big deal, no. But I understood how it could be taken offensively and understood their position. I apologized and corrected myself. Sometimes, it not just about being right, it's about making an effort to get along.

Do you not acknowledge that referring to people's race can be offensive?

[anriana]

Do you not acknowledge that referring to people's race can be offensive?


I guess that person vaguely did by saying anyone who finds it offensive should deal with it, as it is their problem, not his/hers.

[ebonyknight]

I guess that person vaguely did by saying anyone who finds it offensive should deal with it, as it is their problem, not his/hers.

I guess getting along is a one-way street. ;)

[Slytovhand]

Sheesh!! What's gone on here???

From the OP... If Hat had said 'Indian', when the guy (uh-oh... sexist slur :p) was actually Pakistani or Bangladeshi, or Fijian... then I see that there's an issue. (for the record, Australia, and Edible_Hat is in Adelaide, South Australia) has a large Indian population... these days a lot of immigrants come over to do Master's Degrees - usually accounting these days (so I was told by one of my Indian mates at the last job I was at - "If you see an Indian student, they're probably doing accounting - IT has been overdone now").

Skin colour does not equate to race... just a technicality - which would also technically mean that describing someone as 'black' isn't racist. I work with a Kenyan, and he doesn't find it offensive to be called 'black' (depending on the usage). I'm 'white' - unless I'm sunburnt... or envious in which case I'm green... or sad, in which case I'm blue.... I often find the one's calling on the 'race card' (doesn't happen a lot over here...) are trying to defend other people - not themselves. Black people call themselves 'black' - white people call themselves 'white'.

If in a different country (say if I go to Kenya), I'll be a 'white' guy to some people, and a 'black' guy to others... that's because a of numerical difference in the population.

'Justice is blind'... ummm - if the police are looking for someone, the description will be - sexist, racist, ageist, heightist, weightist and fashionist.... eg female caucasian, approx 30-35 years old, 5'6" tall, medium build, wearing pink trackies....

(couldn't be bothered going back a page - so I'll use this quote)..Do you not acknowledge that referring to people's race can be offensive?

I'm thinking... getting a person's race or nationality wrong would be offensive... otherwise it may well be taken as showing interest.


Back to the argument... EK and Boozy... I'll go with Zyan and J with part of this - I don't see much of a difference between 'racist' and 'product of a racist (or institutionalised) environment'... I haven't seen any specifics that show that difference. And thus, when Zyan commented on EK's 'content to call someone racist', she was referring to not seeing a distinction here either. So... please explain... in detail.

I guess getting along is a one-way street.

Sometimes... yes. Well - in as much as sometimes people want to make something into an issue. Just look at all the CS posts about some idiot trying to use a 'race card' for the most ridiculous things. Out of curiosity... if someone is referring to me using a generic term, and I'm not offended by it, but someone else takes offense... what's the go there? And vice-versa? If I say "All Aussies are great"... (which they are, btw..:D - well, maybe not all)...), is that racist as well?

(getting a little OT here - aren't we?)


Slyt

[Boozy]

Back to the argument... EK and Boozy... I'll go with Zyan and J with part of this - I don't see much of a difference between 'racist' and 'product of a racist (or institutionalised) environment'...

All right. Despite my better judgment, I'll give this one more try:

Institutional racism can be defined as a group of societal patterns that have the net effect of creating negative conditions for a certain racial or ethnic group. It differs greatly from individual racism in it's intent; institutional racism is more of a product of inertia than malice.

The US has made great strides in solving the problems of individual racism, but institutional racism still exists. Non-racists living in America adhere to societal norms because they are forced to; it is so ingrained that minorities themselves adhere to these norms.

A good example of this can be seen in police forces: Black officers have been shown to be every bit as likely to "racially profile" blacks as their white counterparts. Of course, it would be ludicrous to draw the conclusion that blacks are actively and personally prejudiced against their own race. It is institutional racism we see at work here.

Institutional racism is not well understood by the general public, a fact that civil rights leaders are well aware of. Martin Luther King's writings were almost entirely focussed on institutional racism, a fact which is often overlooked.

[jayel]

... the same gesture used to offer to shake hands is part of their sign language for 'your mother sucks elephant dick'.


Lmao. Thanks, I needed that bit of levity.

[Slytovhand]

All right. Despite my better judgment, I'll give this one more try:



Good version of 'despite better judgement'... clears up things a lot for me :D

Now... as to the results of that... I still don't see that identifying a person by their most obvious characteristic as inherently 'racist'. It isn't saying anything about the person except their skin colour...

I am thinking that the 'institutionalised racism' as described here is the precursor to the debate on here... if it's not malice in intent, then is it still 'racism' if it's not actually stereotyping? (which the OP wasn't). There is absolutely no judgement calls being made on the individuals when a 'descriptor' is used... only if it is being used as a 'prescriptor'.

[DesignFox]

I think myself, zyanya and jayel were all making the point that just because we mention the color of someone's skin doesn't mean we're making judgements about that person.

ok?

And yes, I've heard of the Jena 6 and that's the biggest bunch of BS I've had to read about. I'm glad the racial tensions aren't as high in my area as they are in Louisiana. (and I guess we could make another thread about that, if anyone wanted to de-rail this one)

Yes, I can understand that someone may be upset if you incorrectly label their culture, but I would think that adults could use the opportunity to talk to one another and get a better understanding of their cultural differences rather than having a fist fight over it. I guess I'm an idealist.

For those who are offended by the term "Indian" or "Pakistani" we can use the terms "South Asian" and "Middle Eastern."

:rolleyes:

For the love of Pete.

[Boozy]

There is absolutely no judgement calls being made on the individuals when a 'descriptor' is used... only if it is being used as a 'prescriptor'.

Which is why both ebonyknight and I agree that calling an Indian guy "Indian" is not necessarily malicious or judgmental, and therefore not racist in the colloquial meaning of the term. Here's a quote from EK:

I did not find the OP offensive at all....
While I don't find the use of racial descriptors racially malicious, they are indeed an indicative sign of institutional racism.

Institutional racism is a difficult concept to grasp for many of us, which is partly why its discussion has been relegated to academic circles instead of taking its rightful place in public discourse. The word "racism" is so loaded that it can be difficult to discuss these concepts openly without one or both parties thinking they are being called names.

I think myself, zyanya and jayel were all making the point that just because we mention the color of someone's skin doesn't mean we're making judgements about that person.

I have never asserted otherwise.

[DesignFox]

I have never asserted otherwise.

Thank you. I didn't think you did Boozy. :D

I am interested in hearing more about this institutional racism idea, though.

Any rate, saying someone is a product of racism because they recognize that there are differences in skin color sounds a lot like saying the person is racist and they just can't help it...because that's the way society is.

I disagree that it's racist to see color. I think it IS racist to form your opinions about the person based on the color of their skin.

I disagree that seeing color is necessarily the product of a racist society. Attitudes formed about those differences are slowly changing- attitudes born of former racist ideas.

[anriana]

Yes, I can understand that someone may be upset if you incorrectly label their culture, but I would think that adults could use the opportunity to talk to one another and get a better understanding of their cultural differences rather than having a fist fight over it. I guess I'm an idealist.

So if you had people coming up to you ever day and mislabeling your culture, you'd take the time to calmly and rationally talk about your actual heritage to every single one of them? I don't know if you meant that to be condescending or not, but you seem to be implying that anyone who gets upset over anything as silly as this is being excessively immature, and having seen first-hand a fraction of the things my partner deals with, I find that offensive.

[Pedersen]

So if you had people coming up to you ever day and mislabeling your culture, you'd take the time to calmly and rationally talk about your actual heritage to every single one of them?

Slight derailment: Look at my handle. That is my real life last name.

Now, close your eyes and spell it.

If you're like most people, you spelled it in one of a few ways: Peterson, Petersen, Pederson, or Penderson.

Not one of those spellings is correct. Pretty much every day, I see someone spell it wrong.

I now have two choices: I can say something to every one of them. Or I can just acknowledge that they are trying to spell it, don't even know they've spelled it wrong, and would be somewhat embarrassed to learn that they were wrong. To do that second option, I just have to grin and bear it.

Which option do you think I take? And why? Because it's not worth the aggravation to me to try to force everybody to get it right.

I know, I know, it's not the same, not everybody sees my last name, yadda yadda yadda. Maybe you'll still get the point of my having told you about this.

Returning you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Slytovhand]

Which is why both ebonyknight and I agree that calling an Indian guy "Indian" is not necessarily malicious or judgmental, and therefore not racist in the colloquial meaning of the term. Here's a quote from EK:



Institutional racism is a difficult concept to grasp for many of us, which is partly why its discussion has been relegated to academic circles instead of taking its rightful place in public discourse. The word "racism" is so loaded that it can be difficult to discuss these concepts openly without one or both parties thinking they are being called names.



I have never asserted otherwise.


Weeelllll...... I was thinking about this today (when I should have been sleeping... dangnabit!!), and 3 things came to mind...

1 - which of the following (if any) is a racist/racism comment?

a - Chinese food
b - Russian Culture
c - Greek and Roman Architecture
d - a Black person
e - 6'8" Caucasian male, medium build, long blonde hair


2 - This one I do take an issue with when I think about it, though it falls a bit more under the 'wilfull ignorance' thread...

"I hate chinese food" (or similar). Racist - because it categorises every bit of food traditional to 'China' (given the spread of time and land that the term has been used to describe) into one simple bucket (and it ain't a 13 piece bucket either... :p). 'Traditional' chinese food ranges from steamed rice, to spicy Mongolian Lamb, to hot and spicy Szechaun, to Peking Duck, to... and that's just the names given to them in English...

So it infuriates me no end to hear that sort of comment... just like 'I don't like Indian food - it's too hot for me'... Lassi isn't hot! Kulfi isn't hot (mmmmm.... kulfi....<drool>), etc, and I personally love a good yellow curry - incredibly mild!!!

/rant


3 - Back to the main agenda...

In any good debate, we need to be clear that we are talking about the same thing, and are using the same defintions. A couple of definitions were pasted for 'racism/racist'. Boozy and EK seem to be using the term (especially in 'institutionalised racism') in a way that does not fit those definitions.

Is there a particular issue you have with those definitions that you'd like to put forth?


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

My concern is that I don't think this case would necessarily fit into institutional racism at all. We don't know that the OP based her knowledge that the guy was from India based only on skin color. He could have offered other clues, such as dress, accent, and perhaps a credit card with a last name.
Hell, he could have also done the "Back in India we do things such and such a way".

So still to me, the mere fact that the OP referred to the customer as Indian still does not rate as racism of any kind, especially since she did not assign any values to his ethnicity, only to his own, unique personality.

[Boozy]

That's a good point - we don't know enough about this story to make a judgment about that either way.

[Zyanya]

Institutional racism can be defined as a group of societal patterns that have the net effect of creating negative conditions for a certain racial or ethnic group. It differs greatly from individual racism in it's intent; institutional racism is more of a product of inertia than malice.

I shall also give it another try.

Part of institutional racism is believing each time race is mentioned, there is a racist motivation for it.


So please stop with the double standards. Your getting offended because someone's ethnicity was mentioned is on the same level of 'racist' that assuming someone from India only eats spicy food is.

[Zyanya]

Give me a break. Zyan said I called them racist and that was the entire basis for Zyan's getting bent out of shape. I never did, they couldn't quote me and you acknowledged that.

Perhaps someday, you'll actually read my posts and get the point.

But I won't hold my breath.

[Boozy]

Your getting offended because someone's ethnicity was mentioned is on the same level of 'racist' that assuming someone from India only eats spicy food is.

:confused:

I wasn't offended that race was mentioned in this story. I never said I was. Where are you getting this from?

[Zyanya]

:confused:

I wasn't offended that race was mentioned in this story. I never said I was. Where are you getting this from?

See my last post.

[the_std]

What's the point of a debate forum if all there is going to be is cryptic phrases and blaming?

[Zyanya]

What's the point of a debate forum if all there is going to be is cryptic phrases and blaming?

Can't have a debate if one side won't actually address the point.

[Slytovhand]

Yeah - it's getting a bit... derailed... talking more about what he said/she said and all...

I asked Boozy to do a clarification, cos I didn't see the difference in the argument. She cleared it up (very nicely, thank you :D), though I still saw it didn't quite answer my thoughts (but that's what debating is all about).

So... I'd suggest, please - specific quotes, and how that is meant to mean, and all that sort of stuff... please?

Oh.. and Boozy/EK...3 - Back to the main agenda...

In any good debate, we need to be clear that we are talking about the same thing, and are using the same defintions. A couple of definitions were pasted for 'racism/racist'. Boozy and EK seem to be using the term (especially in 'institutionalised racism') in a way that does not fit those definitions.

Is there a particular issue you have with those definitions that you'd like to put forth?

You said "not racist in the colloquial meaning of the term", but it's still a form of 'institutionalised racism'...

So... what's the other meaning? The strict definition doesn't fit, nor the colloquial...


Slyt

[jayel]

I actually had a dream about this thread last night. I wanted to laugh at myself when I woke up. I was walking down the street and an Asian family was coming up behind me. Apparently there were water puddles on the ground, because I heard the father say to his daughters, "stop splashing that white girl." At this I thought about this thread, laughed , and turned around to speak to the father. I told him that I couldn't help but overhear what he'd said, and he started apologizing that he hadn't meant anything by it. I told him not to worry, that I wasn't mad, explained this debate we'd been having and proceeded to discuss the whole issue with him.

No, I didn't eat anything wierd last night. I didn't even look at this thread yesterday. :o

Anyway, back OT, I have one last thought. Is it possible that acknowledging race makes some people uncomfortable simply because it drives home the point that you are different? In a room full of people of the same race, if someone points you out as the black/white/Asian/ Mexican, aren't they in essence saying "The one who's not like us?"


I'm still not seeing it as necessarily a bad thing, or racism, but maybe this would make some people uncomfortable. We have to be careful not to make it out o be a bigger deal than it is, though, and slapping a 'racism' label on it is definitely over the top. Not that this would be the case for every situation or person, but it's just a thought.

[DesignFox]

So if you had people coming up to you ever day and mislabeling your culture, you'd take the time to calmly and rationally talk about your actual heritage to every single one of them? I don't know if you meant that to be condescending or not, but you seem to be implying that anyone who gets upset over anything as silly as this is being excessively immature, and having seen first-hand a fraction of the things my partner deals with, I find that offensive.

Well. It certainly wasn't meant as an insult.

Proof of why some of us tip toe around and don't know what to say or do for fear of offending people.

Like Pedersen, I have a last name that some people have difficulty spelling or pronouncing. Like he said, I can get mad about it, and yell and kick and scream and be offended. OR I can make the choice to calmly correct the person. OR I can just ignore it. Because really, is it THAT big a deal?

Unless I walk up to someone and call them a nasty name and tell them I hate them because of their race, I really don't see what they have to be upset about.

That's the only point I was making. It wasn't meant to be condescending.

But frankly, YES. I think if someone gets upset over being called "Chinese" when they happen to be "Korean" (for example) then they are a bit silly. You can be offended if you want, although I'm very sorry that you feel that way.

I just think there are bigger things in the world to be worried about. Being mis-labeled isn't one of them. Again, unless someone comes and punches you in the face over your race or mistaken ethnicity, I really don't think it's worth getting in a froth over.

You could describe me a lot of different ways- I don't get ANGRY when people think I'm of one background over another. I correct them. Or I let it go. Life's too short.

[AFPheonix]

Actually, I could kind of understand why people would be unhappy if you just assumed what heritage they had, especially if you were really stupid about it. (Example: Hurr! I shore like yer poo-poo platters you people make, hyuk!)
It's similar to the racism that that "Black People Like Me!" website lampoons. http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

[Boozy]

It's similar to the racism that that "Black People Like Me!" website lampoons. http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/

Hilarious - for the most part.

I especially enjoyed the letter page.

[Lace Neil Singer]

All the time I've been online, there have been a few people who, due to the fact that I post under a couple of masculine sounding names (The Anti-Crisst and SS Lt Frehley) and like a lot of American bands, have mistaken me for an American guy. Shock horror! Should I be offended? In fact, there are people who on CS have mistaken me for a guy! I must immediately demand a letter of apology!

Seriously tho I couldn't care less. I also have a first name that can be misspelt; I just correct people. Life's too short to burst a blood vessel at such trivial matters. Especially since there are people being stoned, beaten, raped, tortured and murdered for the colour of their skin, so I really don't see why people would waste time being offended just cuz they're Mexican and get called Spanish.

[ebonyknight]

http://www.deaddog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/white-powerandlight.jpg

Can't get more blatant, than that! :p

[AFPheonix]

If you were Pakistani and mistaken for an Indian, you might be pissed. If you were Chinese and mistaken for Japanese, you might also be pissed.

I can see a few instances where just assuming someone's heritage could get you a look of displeasure in the least.

[Zyanya]

If you were Pakistani and mistaken for an Indian, you might be pissed.

If you were Pakistani and I mistakenly thought you were Indian and so made certain that I ordered at least one pizza that had neither pork nor beef on it, would you still be pissed?

[the_std]

If you were Pakistani and I mistakenly thought you were Indian and so made certain that I ordered at least one pizza that had neither pork nor beef on it, would you still be pissed?

... Where the heck did that scenario come from? It doesn't have much of anything to do with the debate that's going on. And that is not what AFP said.

[DesignFox]

Again. If you mistake someone's identity and say or do something insulting, I can certainly understand being offended- that person was trying to offend you based on your ethnicity. And that is WRONG.

But if someone innocently describes a person as "the Chinese gentleman" and he just happens to be Japanese, what is the big deal?

I think Zyanya's point was that she doesn't know the Pakistani guy is Pakistani...she mistakenly thought he was Indian- so she placed the order for pizza and was sure not to put beef or pork on it, as according to Hindu religion, those animals are not to be eaten. It was just a supposed scenario in which incorrectly labeling someone may have happened out of courtesy and respect, not in an effort to insult.

I, personally, try not to use descriptors of specific countries because they are far too specific and may be incorrect. But someone else may not have that much forethought to be broad in their description.

Not everyone who uses race as a descriptor is trying to be insulting.

I think the people who get so bent out of shape because they are accidentally mislabled are just as bad as the racists who PURPOSELY use race or ethnicity as an insult.

It makes regular people afraid to say or do anything at all.

[AFPheonix]

My point is, that because those particular groups of people have historically had emnity towards each other, that they would probably be offended if you referred to them as the wrong nationality/ethnicity.

Yes, I agree that mentioning someone's race/nationality/ethnicity does not in and of itself indicate racism, but to be ignorant and offend someone with your silly remarks, regardless of how harmless you intended them to be, can be racist. Again, Black People Love Us was an illustration of my point.

[anriana]

Again. If you mistake someone's identity and say or do something insulting, I can certainly understand being offended- that person was trying to offend you based on your ethnicity. And that is WRONG.

but it's only wrong if someone else says it's okay for you to find insulting - otherwise being offended is just immature!

But if someone innocently describes a person as "the Chinese gentleman" and he just happens to be Japanese, what is the big deal?

If they really must describe people that way and can't differentiate between people of different nationalities, why not just say "the Asian person?"

I think Zyanya's point was that she doesn't know the Pakistani guy is Pakistani...she mistakenly thought he was Indian- so she placed the order for pizza and was sure not to put beef or pork on it, as according to Hindu religion, those animals are not to be eaten. It was just a supposed scenario in which incorrectly labeling someone may have happened out of courtesy and respect, not in an effort to insult.

The Hindu religion doesn't prohibit eating pork - many Hindus are vegetarian due to ahimsa/beliefs on reincarnation/other things, but there is no specific prohibition against pork like for Muslims/Jews. If I was Pakastani and someone came up to me and said "I made sure not to get pork or beef on one of the pizzas because I know you people don't eat that" I'd just be confused. As far as being respectful/courteous, how about actually asking the person if they have specific dietary restrictions instead of just assuming their nationality, religion, and what they eat based on their outward appearance?

I, personally, try not to use descriptors of specific countries because they are far too specific and may be incorrect. But someone else may not have that much forethought to be broad in their description.

Not everyone who uses race as a descriptor is trying to be insulting.

I think the people who get so bent out of shape because they are accidentally mislabled are just as bad as the racists who PURPOSELY use race or ethnicity as an insult.

It makes regular people afraid to say or do anything at all.

My last name is Schneider. I live in a town with a major freeway called the Snydor. No one ever spells my last name correctly, but that is nothing like having your race constantly misidentified. No one treats me differently because they can't spell my very white, very European name, yet people Other my boyfriend all the time when they see him, because he does not look white or European. So whoever posted that, you're right, I don't get the point of you mentioning that as I don't see how having to spell out a name from a foreign language to people and being treated as an outsider are related.

As I mentioned upthread, my partner is completely American. He's born here, he only speaks English, he's never left the country, he likes baseball and applie pie, etc, etc, yet people treat him completely different because he doesn't "look American." If I go for a walk, I might get a comment or two on my (electric blue) hair, if we go for a walk, we get comments on the earthquake in China (before that it was the tsunami) or about famous Asian celebrities. People ask him to teach them phrases in his language, they ask him how long he's been here, they ask him where he's from, they ask him how he learned to speak English so well, etc, all things that are "fairly innocent" yet also insulting (or is it immature and just as bad a skinhead to be insulted by those?)

Is "you'll know him, the Asian guy" the same as "What's up Jackie Chan/wetback/yellow fellow/other clearly racist comments?" No. Do they both serve to identify him as something other than normal and white? Yes. He isn't Chinese/Latino/Pacific Islander, he is freaking American. Referring to someone by their race is one small piece of Othering. Sometimes it is meant innocently or respectfully, but it is still a piece and impossible for people who actually deal with it to separate from all the other pieces. So no, when my partner is dealing with yet another instance of being Othered, I won't think he is being just as bad as the person who called him a chink, or that he is being incredibly immature.

And if you honestly think that being "afraid to say or do anything at all" in, I'm assuming, matters of racial interaction is the same as being harassed and intimidated on a daily basis due to the color of your skin, then all I can really say is I hope your next life is spent as a minority in Kentucky.

[Boozy]

The most notable difference between Pakistan and India isn't even race; it's religion. Pakistan is almost entirely Muslim, whereas the majority of India is Hindu.

Only 80% Indians are Hindu, so there's still about a 1 in 5 chance that an Indian person offered a vegetarian pizza might ask "Where's the beef?" :D

I'd suggest anyone hosting a multi-ethnic pizza party should simply ask their guests if they have any dietary restrictions, rather than jumping to conclusions based on the colour of their skin.

[Rapscallion]

Hindus consider cows to be sacred - omnivorous Hindus don't eat beef.

Rapscallion

[DesignFox]

I'd suggest anyone hosting a multi-ethnic pizza party should simply ask their guests if they have any dietary restrictions, rather than jumping to conclusions based on the colour of their skin.

Generally, I agree with that.

But if you have no idea, and you don't know the person well enough to ask, is it a bad thing that you assumed they might want or need something different? As long as you don't go up to the person and say something stupid like, "I know you people don't eat meat, so here ya go!" I don't think it's a bad thing. There's a difference between tact...and...rudeness.

And, maybe Anriana didn't catch it, but as I said, if I wasn't sure of someone's background, I WOULD describe them as Asian (for example). I wouldn't pick a country, because I have no idea.

I also wouldn't assume that the person was fresh off the boat...or any other assumptions that were mentioned. While I think those assumptions would be annoying, I would think a brief, "I wouldn't know, seeing as I've lived in America all my life" would be enough to shame the other person into silence. Those questions are beyond presumptious.

Maybe the "othering" would stop if we got rid of things like, Affirmative Action. If we did away with our "Irish pride" "Italian Pride" "Black history months" etc. If we're all AMERICAN, then why do we all celebrate our different hertiages? Or is it ok as long as no white person points out the differences?

Just saying. That seems to be the attitude. If someone DARES describe your ethnicity or race, it's "othering." But if the Mexicans come out and dance and have a party, that's ok. They are celebrating their "other-ness" but it's not ok to point it out when describing someone...hmm. Interesting. We can have parades celebrating Italians....but don't dare "other" them by describing them as Italian.

Am I making my point?

Why is OK sometimes, and not others? Why does it matter so much how I describe a person, so long as I'm not using it in an insulting matter?

[DesignFox]

And if you honestly think that being "afraid to say or do anything at all" in, I'm assuming, matters of racial interaction is the same as being harassed and intimidated on a daily basis due to the color of your skin, then all I can really say is I hope your next life is spent as a minority in Kentucky.

I didn't really mean that it was the "same." But carrying a torch and a chip on your shoulder doesn't help matters. Not all people are horrible racists out to lynch people who are different from them. Attacking someone for a slight stupid assumption is just very unfair. Especially if they really didn't mean anything by it.

And sorry- if you're different. You're different. Not bad. Not Other. Not outside. Just different. Why do Americans find the need to simultaneously celebrate and become offended by their differences?

[Slytovhand]

Firstly... India and Pakistan would also have a large-ish population of Buddhists and Christians.. not to mention animistic religions... I'm an Aussie, and live in a country with a very high christian population... I'd be a pissed if it was just assumed that I was as well... (but that's a little different anyway... just mentioning...)

Secondly... a few years ago (actually - quite a while back...) we had football (soccer) teams named after and supported by, various immigrant nationalities .. such as Sydney Croatia. The government stepped in (via our head sporting body for the soccer) and ruled that all references to other nations be removed. Why? Cos of the amount of 'patriotic' violence that was going on. The Croats would be having big punch-ups with the Yugoslavs every single damn time they had a match. Even in the smaller leagues - get 2 parents together and it'd be on! We are a damn mulit-cultural society... please leave your baggage at the border!

Now.. those 2 countries are so damn close together that it wouldn't be hard to mis-place their ethnicity. So... I call a Croat a Slav - and I'd be in for it... and that's crap.

Part of the whole 'racist' stuff is because people a) want to hang onto the bad stuff, and b) want to hang on to a sense of 'security' about themselves. Differentiating between people is part of that.. and is often quite stupid (as per Anriana's posts... we had an add down here about coffee. There's a big tall dark-black skinned person in the aisle looking at coffee. White girl goes over and wants to chat him up, and opens with a comment about 'I like my coffee a bit exotic - like where you're from"... "What?.. Whopshire?" in a slightly lispy English accent.

Tell me.. how do you Americans take to being called Canadians (and vice versa)? How do us Aussies take to being called Kiwi's? (other than being disgusted cos the accent is so damn different!!!) Or, for that matter - English?? (yeah - right.. English and Australians sound exactly the same!!).

And another thing that just came to mind.. a few years ago, a leading member of the ?Black Panthers came over here trying to get the aboriginal population to push for rights and all, seeing as they were both 'black'... went down like a ton of bricks by pretty much all concerned. Why? Cos of the completely different historical perspectives (he was basically told to go back home...).

Which, getting to my idealism... we are all people, all from different 'races' and background. Be proud of your Irish heritage (and if someone calls you a Scott or Pom... just deal with it.. sort of nicely :p). It does't matter what your skin colour is, nor your name, nor your ancestry.. try being just a human, and treat everyone else as 'just a human' as well.. (except for the nasty criminals.. oh, and politicians... :p)


Slyt

[jayel]

Do they both serve to identify him as something other than normal and white?

You are the first person in this thread I've seen equate 'normal' with 'white'.

That came from you, not me. Kind of telling.

[DesignFox]

slyt- I don't think people would mix up us Americans with Canadians...but, you know what, if someone did. so be it. I'd shrug it off.

It's just not important to me what a complete stranger makes of me. Unless of course, they are punching me in the face...then I'd have something to say about it. :p

We are all human. We are all different. If someone points it out, big whoop-de-do. As long as they are not being derogatory, it's not a big deal.

Part of the reason racial tensions still exist is not just because of the true racists, but because of the few vocal people who can't let it go.

And you know...some of the stuff...I thought about it. Anriana, did you ever think that some of those people who ask your BF annoying questions are really just trying to make conversation? Maybe they aren't trying so much to segragate him out as they are just trying to get to understand or know him better. Like I said, if he tells them he's American, plain and simple, they should stop with the crap...but...I mean...honestly? I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm honestly stating what some people might be thinking.

I personally, have dealt with people of multiple ethnicities, backgrounds, race, generations long being in America and people fresh off the boat. Maybe it's different here. But some other places, maybe the "normal white (your words)" people aren't used to seeing anyone that is different. Maybe it is just their way of trying to be friendly...?

[anriana]

Just saying. That seems to be the attitude. If someone DARES describe your ethnicity or race, it's "othering." But if the Mexicans come out and dance and have a party, that's ok. They are celebrating their "other-ness" but it's not ok to point it out when describing someone...hmm. Interesting. We can have parades celebrating Italians....but don't dare "other" them by describing them as Italian.

Because those Mexicans/Italians are choosing to celebrate their culture. Not everyone of a different ethnicity chooses to do so. Sorry, sometimes you have to treat people of different races as individual people and not just one large group of others who should all be treated exactly the same.

You are the first person in this thread I've seen equate 'normal' with 'white'.

That came from you, not me. Kind of telling.

Oh dear you've figured out my secret. I'm clearly completely racist and not at all referring to the attitudes of the people who Other my partner.

[the_std]

slyt- I don't think people would mix up us Americans with Canadians...but, you know what, if someone did. so be it. I'd shrug it off.

Just to let you know, I'm a Canadian and have been mistaken for American many times before, mostly when I was in Europe. But no, I never took offense to it. It's a subtle difference to them, like the difference between Finnish and Swedish people to me.

[jayel]

Oh dear you've figured out my secret. I'm clearly completely racist and not at all referring to the attitudes of the people who Other my partner.


Didn't come out of their mouths either.

[anriana]

Didn't come out of their mouths either.

It's amazing how you understand the attitudes and know what people you've never met said. Have any other cool ESP tricks?

[ebonyknight]

http://myapologies.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/king_rodney.jpg

"C...C...Can't we all get along????" *snif*

Oops, we already got that answer. :p

[protege]

Part of the reason racial tensions still exist is not just because of the true racists, but because of the few vocal people who can't let it go.

That's *exactly* why this crap continues. Too many idiots (and that's what they are) just won't let old things die. Locally, you don't hear of Asians still pissed about detention camps during WWII, or Jews still pissed about concentration camps. Because of that, it's not uncommon locally to hear things like "those aren't real minorities...because they've done too well :rolleyes: (Yes, I know how that sounds...)

A lot of racism is instilled by one thing. Fear. I try not to see people as being "different" or "of color." I try to take people at face value. I try not to let skin color be a factor.

Locally though, it's difficult. For years, I've lived in a mostly-white suburb. That's starting to change, and many residents are *not* happy about it. Many of the new arrivals come from high-crime areas, and long-term residents are worried that our neighborhood will turn into a ghetto. After driving through many of those neighborhoods, I can't say I blame them for thinking like that. I'm not saying I *condone* that thinking, but that I *understand* it.

Most of the black families that are moving in are decent people. They want to escape the drugs, crime, and violence of the ghettos...and do not want to see it continue. Yet, because they have the same skin color, they tend to draw unwanted attention.

Further, when I had my paper route, one of my customers was black. Nicest family ever--they tipped well, invited me in if it was cold, etc. Things changed after someone spray-painted a certain word on their driveway, and vandalized their cars :eek: The bastard was never caught, but things changed after that. They were still nice to me, but were always on their guard...even to the neighbors that they'd known for years. Unfortunate, but I can't blame them for that.

[jayel]

It's amazing how you understand the attitudes and know what people you've never met said. Have any other cool ESP tricks?

You are doing the same thing, unless you can show us where some of these people who offended you by guessing at your s.o.'s race actually said he was something other than 'normal and white'.

Part of the reason racial tensions still exist is not just because of the true racists, but because of the few vocal people who can't let it go.


I think you're right. And this is where the backlash I mentioned came in.



"C...C...Can't we all get along????" *snif*

Oops, we already got that answer. :p

Maybe the only way to get along is to quit speaking and interacting with each other, since it's apparently so easy to inadvertently offend someone.

I'm not going to go out of my way to make 'special' friends if I have to walk on eggshells all the time trying not to piss them off.

[ebonyknight]

Maybe the only way to get along is to quit speaking and interacting with each other, since it's apparently so easy to inadvertently offend someone.

I'm not going to go out of my way to make 'special' friends if I have to walk on eggshells all the time trying not to piss them off.

Ah, those bygone days of Segregation. The nostalgia, eh?

[DesignFox]

"C...C...Can't we all get along????"


heheh. I wanted to say that, but refrained.

and anriana, you didn't answer my question. How many people were just trying to be friendly by asking your SO about his heritage?

And yes, it is understandable that some people wouldn't want to celebrate their differences, but many people do. You expect every person in the world to know this, when they don't know you? How do we learn about one another if we don't ask?

Granted, I don't go up to random people and start harping on their ethnicity. No one here said that was polite. But, if I notice someone is different than I am, I might start a conversation and ask some questions. (not just with random guy on the street, but a customer maybe...or someone I made eye contact with who started talking to me...etc.)

As an example:
I worked in an area with many Hasidic (sp?) Jews. Obviously, we have key differences in philosophical leanings. Most of the people I dealt with were extremely happy to have me asking them questions about their religion, rather than just judging them or ignoring them. I would base my questions or my attitudes on the individual person, and some of those people and I had very interesting discussions about our differences. We learned from one another and it was quite positive.

If I notice a person is quite tense, shy or I'm not sure how they'll take to being asked questions, I simply keep my mouth shut. But not all people are good at reading the people around them. Personally, I don't see a need to flip out when someone might just be trying to be nice.

I reserve the flip out for the assholes who deserve it.

[Zyanya]

... Where the heck did that scenario come from? It doesn't have much of anything to do with the debate that's going on. And that is not what AFP said.

Yes, it is. He said that mistaking a Pakistani for an Indian is insulting. I demonstrated that in many cases, no, it is not.

The problem is that those of you talking about 'well, it's racist' are incorrectly and insultingly assuming any racial mix up is an event like saying 'all those India people are horrible drivers' when referencing a man from Pakistan. Of course that is insulting.

But what you are lumping in with that behavior is the non-racial and non-insulting behavior of 'well, I think Joe is from India and I think they hold cows sacred and don't eat beef, so we should make sure there is food available at the pot-luck that he can eat', when Joe is from Pakistan.

No racist behavior there. In fact, it's an attempt to be courteous, tolerant, and just plain nice. You however, are considering it the same as the first scenario, and that's insulting to both sides.

As to where that scenario came from, it came from work last week. A co-worker knew another co-worker was from a different ethnic background and mistakenly thought it was Pakistan. He was trying to hurry up and place an order and didn't have time to go track her down. So, knowing a (very) little bit about the culture of Pakistan, my co-worker made sure he ordered a pizza with no beef or pork on it (actually, he ordered both a plain cheese and a vegetarian). The other co-worker was actually from India, and was pleased at the thoughtfulness, NOT insulted at the mistake in country.


To use another local scenario, there was a high school team whose mascot was named for the local tribe. A group of busy-bodies decided the mascot was an insult to the tribe and campaigned, getting it changed. Shortly afterwards, someone thought to interview the tribe. Turns out, the tribe was upset that the name had been changed, they were quite proud of the team and honored at the name, and had been among the teams largest contributors during fund-raising time. They were insulted that the busy-bodies had thought they were too stupid to speak up for themselves and thought they knew best instead of just asking.


Me, I'm of Ukrainian heritage. The Ukraine and Russia haven't gotten along in years. If you mistakenly call my last name a Russian name, I don't give a rat's arse, cause I think of myself as an American.


It's amazing how you understand the attitudes and know what people you've never met said. Have any other cool ESP tricks?

Yet another example of the hypocrisy in this thread. Content to imply everyone who disagrees with you is a racist, but how dare anyone imply anything about you!

Take a look in the damn mirror.


How many people were just trying to be friendly by asking your SO about his heritage?

Probably most of them, but acknowledging that gets in the way of the drama queen persecution complex. I also wonder how often her boyfriend is insulted vs just her being insulted on his behalf.

[the_std]

Zyanya, these personal attacks against members on this board are very rude and don't have much to do with the actual matter being discussed here. I'm sure we can all discuss racial insinuation without resulting in personal attacks against other members.

And, even if you believe the other members have attacked you, surely you can be the bigger man and stick to the issues?

[Zyanya]

Zyanya, these personal attacks against members on this board are very rude and don't have much to do with the actual matter being discussed here. I'm sure we can all discuss racial insinuation without resulting in personal attacks against other members.

And, even if you believe the other members have attacked you, surely you can be the bigger man and stick to the issues?

At this point, I could take exception to the fact that you've used the term 'bigger man'. I could point out that it's inherently sexist, and size-est. After all, I am female, and the statement would seem to state that only males can be superior. And of course, I'm short, so the statement could also be an insult to my height by saying that because I am short, I will never be as good as someone taller than I am.

But that would be ridiculous on my part. That's not what you meant by the phrase, and that's not the spirit of your post. It would be simple nit-picking on my part, an attempt to be a drama queen, an attempt to twist the argument, an attempt to make you look like the bad guy, an attempt to put myself on a self-righteous pedestal, a bit of slander towards you by suggesting you persecute short females, and in essence, a completely stupid way for me to behave.



So instead, I am just going to hope you get the point of the above rant and realize why I am getting fed up with the implications that I am a racist for happening to be aware of the ethnic backgrounds of my friends, and hope that you acknowledge that every instance of my supposed rudeness came about in response to someone making a slanderous implication as to my personality. And that yes, they had something to do with the argument at hand and were pertinent to the issue, as demonstrated in my above rant. Calling hypocrisy what it is is very pertinent to the issue, as is pointing out drama queen behavior as the real basis for the supposed insult.

[the_std]

Zyanya, I happen to agree with you on a lot of the points being discussed here. I merely wished to point out that people are a lot more likely to discuss their opinions and not put on their defensive face if everyone else in the debate does, too.

[Zyanya]

Zyanya, I happen to agree with you on a lot of the points being discussed here. I merely wished to point out that people are a lot more likely to discuss their opinions and not put on their defensive face if everyone else in the debate does, too.

Then perhaps they should stop implying people are racist and thus putting them on the defensive then?

As I said earlier, hypocrisy is an ugly trait, and if they are offended by what I am saying, perhaps they should look at the comments of theirs that I was responding to.

Because all I am doing is turning their own words and implications back on them.

[Pedersen]

And, even if you believe the other members have attacked you, surely you can be the bigger man and stick to the issues?

I'll speak up a bit. I'm going to speak in the most general terms possible, and am probably going to offend some of the people here. Oh well.

I've seen a few people on this thread who seem to debate the point as if to prove that the majority are all racist, and minorities never are.

I've seen others who provide valid insight into why minorities of any sort feel disadvantaged.

The second group actually made me think that maybe there was something more, something valid. Made me start to be willing to think that maybe, without even intending for it to happen, some form of privilege was being granted to me without my asking for it or seeking it out in any way.

The first group has more or less closed my mind on the subject, and has made me feel like I did before. I'm not doing anything to hold minorities back, and if they feel I am, then that's their problem, not mine. Go whine on somebody else's shoulder.

That first group also makes me feel under attack, as if I have to defend every action I take, every comment I make. I feel unable to discuss what I perceive, because my viewpoint is made to be invalid.

The first group has also made statements which are very similar to "You're white, you're male, you can't possibly experience discrimination/prejudice of any sort in your entire life." Even when I can provide counter examples to show it, the response amounts to "Oh well. You still have it better than me, which makes your experiences insignificant."

I can understand why this thread has gone the way it has. If I were an active participant, I think I'd be responding in a defensive manner, and lashing out at my perceived attackers.

To the people in the second group, please, post more.

To the people in the first group, please examine not just your message, but also how you convey your message. You are alienating people who would support your cause because of the way you convey your message.

As to who is in which group, I'm not naming names. I'm sure I've already offended rather a few people.

[the_std]

No, Pedersen, I agree. I wish that everyone could post without feeling under attack. And that's why I chose to say what I said. I didn't mean that Zyanya was the only one doing it and I'm sorry if I came off that way.

[Pedersen]

I didn't mean that Zyanya was the only one doing it and I'm sorry if I came off that way.

And I didn't mean to even imply you were saying that. If I did, I apologize.

That post of mine has been brewing in my head for days. Probably a week or so.

I've seen a few of these threads lately, and they are rapidly turning into something that closes my mind to the viewpoint they are trying to promote. I read them, and simply find material to reinforce those closing of my mind to these viewpoints.

I hope they're reading, and actually care about the effect of their message, I really do.

[DesignFox]

I'm trying very hard not to get on the defensive, and not to attack anybody.

Pedersen, I think you put the point well.

[Slytovhand]

Pedersen.. I'm offended ...



:p


You know, that's just the reason I like debating you on here... you stick to the topic :D

Even if it starts to get a bit personal, it can still be brought back to 'the bigger issue' -it's not about 'me and you' (even when you are wrong :p), but about 'this is how it will affect me'..."me" being defined as 'people in my situation'.

I've seen a few quotes being thrown around, and thus it's turned into 'me vs you' and quite personal.

some of the examples used are personal - but also valid, but those valid points (as Ped was pointing out) get lost in the argument cos it turns into "You're doing this to me"... which really does destroy the argument. (how about ye olde 'When I hear this, I think/feel...")



STD... yeah - that post did seem to be directed only at Zyanya... just saying (though I'm presuming it's only cos hers was the post immediately before yours..)


Foxy...slyt- I don't think people would mix up us Americans with Canadians...but, you know what, if someone did. so be it. I'd shrug it off.

Hahaha... sorry... :p Nope, I still can't pick your accents.. maybe about 1 in 20 times I'll get it right (and that's only cos I think to myself.."hmm - not obviously New York, not obviously deep south, not obviously anything.. sounds more like my friend in Ohio - I'll go for Canadian"). But then, I've only been around a Canadian briefly in my life... and not around Americans for long at all...

But.. nationality differences like that are pretty insignificant in my book!There's only a friendly rivalry.. some countries still hate each other (and that sucks!)


Oh - as for the pizza scenario... personally - why wouldn't you get vegetarian anyway? After all, how many people in our countries are veggies without a nationality or religious reason? Unless it's a group of friends who all know each other, that's usually what we do here...cover all bases.


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

Yes, it is. He said that mistaking a Pakistani for an Indian is insulting. I demonstrated that in many cases, no, it is not.

The problem is that those of you talking about 'well, it's racist' are incorrectly and insultingly assuming any racial mix up is an event like saying 'all those India people are horrible drivers' when referencing a man from Pakistan. Of course that is insulting.


I'm a she, actually :p
I don't think we're quite on the same page. I'm talking about situations that Ariana's SO encounters: dingleberries who walk up to him and just assume something about him based on the color of his skin. I know quite a few Indians and Pakistanis who would be horrified if I was rude enough to come up and start assuming they're from the other country just offhand. Not just people with that heritage, but first generation immigrants.
Make more sense now?
I'm just advocating for plain old manners, common sense and critical thinking. That's it. If you'll recall, I agreed that the OP of this particular thread was not a case of racism, either individual or institutional.

[anriana]

You are doing the same thing, unless you can show us where some of these people who offended you by guessing at your s.o.'s race actually said he was something other than 'normal and white'.

Okay, let me upload the audio recorder I carry around with me at all times. Or you could always go to lj.com/ruralkybigotsspeak.

And Othering, a phrase I have been using this entire thread, means I am X, X is normal, you are Y, Y is not normal.

I'm not going to go out of my way to make 'special' friends if I have to walk on eggshells all the time trying not to piss them off.
And what exactly do you mean by "'special' friends?"


Anriana, did you ever think that some of those people who ask your BF annoying questions are really just trying to make conversation? Maybe they aren't trying so much to segragate him out as they are just trying to get to understand or know him better. Like I said, if he tells them he's American, plain and simple, they should stop with the crap...but...I mean...honestly? I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm honestly stating what some people might be thinking.

I personally, have dealt with people of multiple ethnicities, backgrounds, race, generations long being in America and people fresh off the boat. Maybe it's different here. But some other places, maybe the "normal white (your words)" people aren't used to seeing anyone that is different. Maybe it is just their way of trying to be friendly...?

Treating someone differently because of their race is one small piece of Othering. Sometimes it is meant innocently or respectfully, but it is still a piece. It is not okay to walk up to strangers and ask "How long you been in America, son?" even if you mean it in a friendly way.

[DesignFox]

Foxy...

Hahaha... sorry... Nope, I still can't pick your accents.. <snip> But then, I've only been around a Canadian briefly in my life... and not around Americans for long at all...

<snip>

Oh - as for the pizza scenario... personally - why wouldn't you get vegetarian anyway? After all, how many people in our countries are veggies without a nationality or religious reason? Unless it's a group of friends who all know each other, that's usually what we do here...cover all bases.


Slyt

I've only met Canadians once. Of course, they had a distinct accent, and ended all their phrases in "eh?" :D BF and I were in Hawaii and met the couple at a restaurant and started chatting...and that's how we found out where they were from. :D And yes, we asked them questions about Canadaland.

As for the pizza...
I would order vegetarian, anyway. But, I could see other people's thought processes being different from mine.

I don't assume people are racist. I give them the benefit of the doubt for trying to be courteous. Which, in the scenario presented, it seemed the person would have their heart in the right place.

Anriana, I guess I just don't understand Kentuckians. I've never in my life seen someone go up to another person and just spout off an inquiry like that. Most people don't ask those questions unless they are in conversation with the person, and detect a very strong accent or have some tip-off that the person celebrates a different religion or culture (and even WANTS to talk about it). I guess diversity isn't a big thing down there, and most people don't know how to handle it.

I would think that it would help your cause more if you were courteous to people rather than instantly crying racism in response, though. Or maybe you are courteous and just spouting your frustration here. I don't know the situation. But instantly getting defensive puts people off and probably doesn't help them think of your SO as anything than "other" which is exactly what you are trying to avoid.

It sucks to deal with ignorance, but ignorance can be be resolved...you can't fix the truly stupid or the racists who refuse to change- but they won't be around forever, and their ideas ARE dying- albeit painfully slow in some places.

Hey just a thought! You can come to New Jersey. With the exception of a few parts, we're pretty diverse, here. No one would glance sideways either at your blue hair, or your SO... :D (kidding) ;)

[Boozy]

Hahaha... sorry... :p Nope, I still can't pick your accents.. maybe about 1 in 20 times I'll get it right .

Considering that something like 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the US border, most of us can't pinpoint nationality based on speech either. There's a Maritime accent (this is where the "eh" stereotype comes from), and obviously a Quebecois (French) accent, but other than that, we mostly sound like northern Americans.

I can usually tell an American from a Canadian within a few minutes of meeting them, but its based on their clothing and behaviour (not bad, just different) more than their voice.

[Greenday]

I'm a she, actually :p

Pwned!

Anyway, this pissing match definitely killed a good hour or two to catch up on.

I think my feelings match what DesignFox has been saying. When people tell a story and don't mention race, I automatically picture white people in my head. The majority of the people I've met in my life are white, that's why I'd assume that. Giving a general idea of the person's race gives me a more accurate idea of who is involved.

Assuming that using white, black, asian to describe somebody is racist, well, that's just not always true. They are adjectives. Nothing more. If you start using real racist terms to describe people, then there is a problem. But start off a sentence with "This white guy I work with..." does not automatically equal racist.

Colorblind society is completely different to physically blind society. Colorblind society just means we treat each other the same regardless of color.

More to come, after lunch break.

[jayel]

And what exactly do you mean by "'special' friends?"

People who are different than me. I'll be honest, we're not all that diverse down here. And yes, I meant it sarcastically.

Treating someone differently because of their race is one small piece of Othering.

I'll assume you mean until they start asking for special treatment. Not that we ever hear about those kind of stories.:rolleyes:

[powerboy]

I never really thought of references to race in a story as anything other than an adjective, myself. White girl = girl who's skin is white, black guy = guy who's skin is black. Okay. Got it. Next paragraph.




I do the samething.

[Slytovhand]

I was thinking about starting a new post in Pop Culture, but decided this goes in quite nicely here...

I'm watching Stargate SG1 (Atlantis, as it happens).

Now - other than the fact that everyone speaks fluent American - regardless of what ever planet they venture to (and that's even in another galaxy!!!), the main players of those races they meet up with have a large tendency to be white (unlike in SG1 normal... where they have a stack of black actors... called Jafaa for the most part!)

Anyway, I had my goat raised in watching an episode. They get to a planet which is fairly simple (personally, I thought Polynesian, but similar to Native American...), but the head priest dude was LILY WHITE!!! Apparently, no other people had been to that planet, and they were the only damn people on that entire planet.. yet the priest (who was the 'head' of the people) what ghostly white... in a group of people who were not....


I think I get a bit more of the 'institutionalised racism' from that alone!


Slyt

[Zyanya]

I know quite a few Indians and Pakistanis who would be horrified if I was rude enough to come up and start assuming they're from the other country just offhand.

And I've known ones that couldn't care less.

The problem with racism is that it is often subjective. A Jewish friend of mine asked my husband what his favorite food was, pork and shrimp wontons, often served with a butter dip, and with mock horror referred to them as 'Jew repellent'. The name stuck as kind of an in joke amongst our group. Nothing racist is meant by it at all, just friends poking fun at each other.

Should I use the same term to someone outside our group, then yes, it could be taken as very racist (or religion-ist, if you prefer).

Make more sense now?

Yes and no. The thing I have been objecting to from the beginning is the insinuation that noticing race in the first place is racist. It isn't. Making negative judgments based on race is racist.

Assuming someone is from one country to the east of where they are actually from is what is known as an 'honest mistake', not an attempt at racism.

I'm a she, actually

And thank you for proving my point. The other person I know who uses 'Phoenix' in their handle is male, so I assumed you were as well. Nothing negative meant by it, but later, if I was telling the story, I might say, 'so this woman called Phoenix said', without intending anything sexist by using the term 'woman'. It's just a descriptive term.

[Zyanya]

Treating someone differently because of their race is one small piece of Othering. Sometimes it is meant innocently or respectfully, but it is still a piece.

So, if I know that my friend is from India, should I still only have only beef dishes at the barbecue? I probably would if she wasn't coming, so why should I change just because she is. That is treating her differently after all. Wouldn't want her to feel I was 'othering' her at all.


Or we could, you know, acknowledge that people are different in many ways and all deserve to be treated with respect, even if that means acknowledging they are different.

[Zyanya]

Anriana, I guess I just don't understand Kentuckians. I've never in my life seen someone go up to another person and just spout off an inquiry like that. Most people don't ask those questions unless they are in conversation with the person, and detect a very strong accent or have some tip-off that the person celebrates a different religion or culture (and even WANTS to talk about it). I guess diversity isn't a big thing down there, and most people don't know how to handle it.

Doesn't happen often in Kentucky either. Granted, I've just visited a few times, but those times have been with 'Other' friends. In three days, there was one occurrence, and it involved someone walking up to an oriental friend and asking her 'do you know where I can find good Chinese food in this city?'

[Boozy]

So, if I know that my friend is from India, should I still only have only beef dishes at the barbecue? I probably would if she wasn't coming, so why should I change just because she is. That is treating her differently after all. Wouldn't want her to feel I was 'othering' her at all.

That would be like offering nothing other than regular soda at a party to which you've invited a known diabetic. Your example has nothing to do with "Othering" and I don't think anriana would claim that it does.

Also, everything starts to break down once we start using examples of religion in a conversation about race. Religion is a choice that can have profound effects on how the adherents live their lives; race is not a choice, and doesn't necessarily have to change the way one lives.

[AFPheonix]

And I've known ones that couldn't care less.


Yes and no. The thing I have been objecting to from the beginning is the insinuation that noticing race in the first place is racist. It isn't. Making negative judgments based on race is racist.

Assuming someone is from one country to the east of where they are actually from is what is known as an 'honest mistake', not an attempt at racism.



I don't disagree with you. All I've been saying is that making the mistake in a way that's profoundly rude can be at least seen as racist, if not downright racist in an of itself. It shows a general lack of concern about people and a lack of awareness of the world outside one's little bubble. Zyana's example about her friend getting asked where there would be good Chinese food is a perfect one of how one can be kind of racist, whether they realize it or not, simply by making a mistake and an assumption about someone's background.
Making the mistake about my gender was an honest mistake and wasn't made in a way that was insulting. I'm sure there would have been other ways to make the mistake that would have been extremely rude and sexist.
NOW do I make more sense?

[Greenday]

There's always the possibility that the person had been craving Chinese food, and at the time, he had been hungry and wanted to know where there were Chinese resturants, and that Zyana's friend was the only person around. Who else would they ask? If that were the case, it wouldn't be racist at all.

[AFPheonix]

They were in a city. I'm sure there was more than one person around.

Perhaps consulting a phone book was just far too taxing.

[Zyanya]

Zyana's example about her friend getting asked where there would be good Chinese food is a perfect one of how one can be kind of racist, whether they realize it or not, simply by making a mistake and an assumption about someone's background.
Making the mistake about my gender was an honest mistake and wasn't made in a way that was insulting. I'm sure there would have been other ways to make the mistake that would have been extremely rude and sexist.
NOW do I make more sense?

So, where is the difference between my assuming you were male based on a characteristic of yours and someone assuming he was Chinese based on a characteristic of his?

I see you claiming they are different and pointing out one is acceptable because there is no ill intent or insult, but I don't see you demonstrating the ill intent nor explaining why the first is automatically insulting.

Which is the point I was trying to make. I see claims of 'well that's different', such as making an assumption that someone from India could very well be Hindu based on the fact that most of them are, but no real explanation as to WHY it's different other than some folks are just adamant that if you notice skin color you are a racist in spite of all the evidence and reality to the contrary.

I think my initial hypothesis is gaining support. It's the inherent assumption that white people are racist. Evidence for this assumption is Anriana's statement that 'Othering' is noticing anyone is anything other than 'normal and white', demonstrating her belief that 'white' is 'normal', and thus all whites see anything else as 'abnormal'. Once again, hypocrisy.


Sorry, but I am going to continue acknowledge that people are different in many ways and all deserve to be treated with respect, even if that means acknowledging they are different.

[DesignFox]

Sorry, but I am going to continue acknowledge that people are different in many ways and all deserve to be treated with respect, even if that means acknowledging they are different.

And you know, sometimes, in order to treat someone with respect, it is necessary to acknowledge that they are different from you.

[Boozy]

I think my initial hypothesis is gaining support. It's the inherent assumption that white people are racist. Evidence for this assumption is Anriana's statement that 'Othering' is noticing anyone is anything other than 'normal and white', demonstrating her belief that 'white' is 'normal', and thus all whites see anything else as 'abnormal'. Once again, hypocrisy.


Anriana was explaining the concept of "Othering" and used the phrase "Normal and white" to describe the attitude of those who do this.

It seemed pretty obvious to me that this was not her own opinion, and that she was describing someone else's thought process.

[Lace Neil Singer]

A lot of people seem to think that only white people can be racist. If that was the case, there would be no murders of white people by other nationalities, and the Black Panthers wouldn't exist. Oh yeah, and I guess this black girl who barged into me once, calling me a "white bitch" wasn't being racist at all, cuz only white people can be racist, right?

[Boozy]

I don't understand why some people would think that only whites can be racist, either.

Louis Farakkann is a well-known black Islamic leader, and he has often stirred up controversy with remarks widely believed to be anti-semitic. And that's just one of the most obvious examples.

[Zyanya]

Anriana was explaining the concept of "Othering" and used the phrase "Normal and white" to describe the attitude of those who do this.

Yes, I know.

And in doing so, she called everyone who acknowledges the difference in skin color as 'racist' and implies that only whites are racist.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I don't understand why some people would think that only whites can be racist, either.

Louis Farakkann is a well-known black Islamic leader, and he has often stirred up controversy with remarks widely believed to be anti-semitic. And that's just one of the most obvious examples.

Mugabe too; he's definitely an obvious choice.

[daleduke17]

I don't understand why some people would think that only whites can be racist, either.



Because that is what has been taught in public. Whites where the ones who predominately owned slaves. Places all over were divided into White/Black. Apparently being white is the worst thing that can be done.

[blas87]

People like that are just ignorant of history. Slavery of black people did not originate in the US or by white people.

Not saying it was ever right, just bringing up a point.

[AFPheonix]

So, where is the difference between my assuming you were male based on a characteristic of yours and someone assuming he was Chinese based on a characteristic of his?

I see you claiming they are different and pointing out one is acceptable because there is no ill intent or insult, but I don't see you demonstrating the ill intent nor explaining why the first is automatically insulting.

And yet, simply having slanty eyes and olive skin does not make one chinese, or make one all-knowing about what restaurants are "good" in an area. THAT'S the inherent difference between you mistaking my gender and someone mistaking someone's heritage and then asking silly questions based on that assumption. You only had my written words to go by. Now, had you asked me about a man's view of some such opinion, that could be potentially insulting.
I'm not sure how much better I can put this. What that person did to Ariana's boyfriend would be the equivalent of asking a random white person what good Italian restaurants were around the area, simply because they appeared swarthy.
I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept. Have good manners, ask appropriate questions, assume nothing, and life is all good. Be an ignorant ass, and you get what's coming to you.

[Zyanya]

I'm not sure how much better I can put this. What that person did to Ariana's boyfriend would be the equivalent of asking a random white person what good Italian restaurants were around the area, simply because they appeared swarthy. .


I understand they are equivalent actions.

What you have yet to substantiate is your claim that the action is inherently and automatically rude.

WHY is it inherently and automatically rude to think that someone of a particular ethnicity might know where a good ethnic place to eat is?

I have a particular policy regarding ethnic food. If I go to say, a Chinese restaurant, open the door, look in, and there are no Chinese-looking people among the diners, I eat elsewhere. If I look in and see most of the clientèle is Chinese-looking people, I know the food in there is probably both good and authentic. Why? Because if you are of the ethnic group, you are more likely to know the difference between 'good' ethnic food and 'americanized' ethnic food, and 'americanized' ethnic food tends to suck ass.

Explain to me why this is racist.

[Boozy]

WHY is it inherently and automatically rude to think that someone of a particular ethnicity might know where a good ethnic place to eat is?

That isn't what AFPheonix is saying.

She's saying it's rude to assume that someone is of a particular ethnicity because of how they look.

It's one thing to ask your Chinese friend (who actually maintains involvement in the local Chinese community) where a good restaurant is. It's quite another to ask a stranger where a good Chinese restaurant is when you know nothing about them other than that they look Chinese to you. AFPheonix's example was of the latter sort.

[Zyanya]

She's saying it's rude to assume that someone is of a particular ethnicity because of how they look.

Again, WHY?

Substantiate this claim.

[Greenday]

On a side note, I just wanted to pop in and mention how one of my co-workers has a lot of people ask him if he is of Chinese descent. He's Bolivian...

[AFPheonix]

Again, WHY?

Substantiate this claim.

Why? Because usually the people who are willing to make that assumption and act on it in a socially unbecoming way usually aren't well versed in the nuances between races and ethnicities. It's about stereotyping, which is also rude.

Ok. Let's insert other races and nationalities for giggles. If THIS doesn't get my point across, I'm going to think that you're being deliberately obtuse and I'll wash my hands of this line of conversation.

1) White person with blonde hair and blue eyes is walking down the street. Dumbass walks up, does a Nazi salute, commiserates with the now horrified blonde person about how dirty and awful those jews are in the bank, and asks where the closest german food restaurant is. Blondie decks the dumbass, and mentions he'd have no idea, as he is actually from Britain.

2)Black person walks down the street. Dumbass walks up to him, attempts fist bump, greets him with a "hey, what up my nigga?" and asks where the best place to get fried chicken and chitlins are. Black person shrugs, as he is fresh off the boat from Cuba, and proceeds to deck dumbass for being a twat.

Sorry for the Godwin example.

[Norton]

I know the thread has branched far off from the OP's situation a while ago, but I had a thought about it.

Several people had a problem with someone describing a person's ethnicity in a story told on CS. Race had nothing to do with the anecdote, but the poster included it anyway. Most CS members will only disclose the race of the subject if it comes into play in the actual story.

Yet, the same is not done for other non-relevant descriptors. The following examples are sometimes relevant to the story, but I see little-to-no reaction when they are not.

If someone posts a story where the hair color of the customer was mentioned, no one says "Was it necessary to tell us that?" Same thing with fashion. When someone tells a story about a stupid customer, and mentions that her outfit was revealing, I don't see anyone saying "Why did you describe her outfit? Not all women who dress sexy are stupid". Or if the story is about someone acting entitled, and the poster mentions the customer looked wealthy, rarely will someone jump in and say "You know, not all rich people are snobs, and how do you know for sure he was rich, anyway?". If the story is about a pleasant customer, and the poster mentions he was very short, is the poster "othering" short people? Does anyone suggest that posters refrain from mentioning the gender of the person unless it relates to the story?

Why is there no reaction to these descriptors, yet members get questioned if they mention the ethnicity of the other person/people involved?

I just don't see why the line between offensive and non-offensive on CS is drawn at ethnicity. If the fact that someone's race was pointed out in a story is offensive, shouldn't any descriptor besides "human" also be offensive? Afterall, that's what we all boil down to at our core - human. But then, CS would become quite boring after reading story after story with phrases like "This human came in the store", or "A human tried to shoplift".



(I'm not even going to touch all the other examples of possible racism in this thread. Just wanted to comment on the OP).

[DesignFox]

Norton- it's just because nobody says, "This white guy came in..."

I don't understand how using a descriptor is a bad thing, either. I think people read into the story too much by thinking... "you mentioned the person's race, you must be relating their race to their bad behavior!"

I don't know why, but it seems that's how a lot of people think.

The only time I've seen the "white" people described as such is in conjuction with the word "trash"...and I have to say, the poster got in equal hot water for it. And that is a direct slander against the person...but for some reason, not really considered racist...it's more a slam on their economic background...still, it leaves a clear picture... *shrug*

I know people are touchy on the subject, so unless a customer pulls the race or "I'm rich" or "I'm poor" card, I leave their ethnicity, economic background and general description out of my story.

I dunno. I think it's hard. Like I mentioned before, I'm white. So I tend to just automatically picture white people in my head. I'd assume if I were black, I would just picture black people, unless I was told otherwise. (much like the poster who mentioned white people making Jesus white and black people portraying Jesus as black)

We tend to project characteristics not described as those that are similar to our own. When we are told otherwise, we get a different picture in our heads- some people like extreme details in their stories- they like to picture EVERYTHING. But most of what we talk about doesn't require the spinning of a whole environment or it's characters. Brevity is wit...and most of the stories on CS should be brief and entertaining...or a way for our members to share their frustrations and get through them. To those ends, it isn't really necessary for us to relate every little detail about our customers...but a broad description, to me, isn't insulting and can sometimes be quite funny or relevant.

Not everyone has the mastery of tact...so, I just assume innocence in the remark- unless it's outright racist...i.e. "So this guy was being a total [stereotype]"

[Zyanya]

1) White person with blonde hair and blue eyes is walking down the street. Dumbass walks up, does a Nazi salute, commiserates with the now horrified blonde person about how dirty and awful those jews are in the bank, and asks where the closest german food restaurant is. Blondie decks the dumbass, and mentions he'd have no idea, as he is actually from Britain.

Okay, now let's take the strawman BS out of that scenario to make it similar to the scenario that actually offended Anriana.

1) White person with blond hair and blue eyes is walking down the street. Person walks up and asks, do you know where a good German restaurant is?

2)Black person walks down the street. Dumbass walks up to him, attempts fist bump, greets him with a "hey, what up my nigga?" and asks where the best place to get fried chicken and chitlins are. Black person shrugs, as he is fresh off the boat from Cuba, and proceeds to deck dumbass for being a twat.

Again -

2) Black person walks down the street. Person walks up to him and says 'know any good jazz places around here?'

I like how you had to work and twist the scenarios to actually make them racist though. Kind of proved my point for me.

[Slytovhand]

Actually, I'd say all of those examples display an inherent.... hmmm... maybe 'racism' - definitely the 'institutionalised' version.... it's making a judgement call about someone based solely on looks.

It doesn't need to be the extreme type (like the neo-nazi scenario... besides... blonde hair, blue eyes is German??? Why not Swedish? Dutch? etc??). Black person?? Umm... there's a whole continent I can point at...

So, I'd be annoyed as Anriana has been, if ppl kept coming up to me and making some lame-arse presumption about me based solely on how I look - to them!

But... those scenarios don't actually relate to the OP, nor to describing someone to someone else for ease of identification... (so I'm seeing 3 seperate debates going on in this thread..)

Oh - DF... yes, trust me, you use a different descriptor that doesn't directly relate to the story being told, and yes, you'll see the flack fly... depending on what precise description you use. If there's a descriptor, and there is also a negative connotation to the person in the story, you'll see the fisticuffs..

Slyt

[AFPheonix]

I will admit to adding more silliness to my examples to embellish my point, but my point still stands: assuming that someone is a certain race simply because of the color of their skin, and then proceeding to ask a stupid stereotypical question of them is racist. It's not racist like a KKK member, but it still falls under that umbrella. I did not prove your point, I proved mine. Your inability to see what I'm saying when everyone else clearly is able to is not speaking to my inability to explain myself clearly. I chose an exaggerated example to get the point across.

Slytofhand- you're right, this is not part of the OP. As I've pointed out numerous times, the mere acknowledgement that there are different races and kinds is not racist in and of itself. Poor boorish behavior based on that acknowledgement is.

[Zyanya]

I will admit to adding more silliness to my examples to embellish my point, but my point still stands: assuming that someone is a certain race simply because of the color of their skin, and then proceeding to ask a stupid stereotypical question of them is racist.

Aha! Here we have the point. How is asking someone where a good Chinese restaurant is a 'stupid stereotypical question'?

I chose an exaggerated example to get the point across.

You chose an exaggerated example because that was the only way to make it racist.

As I've pointed out numerous times, the mere acknowledgement that there are different races and kinds is not racist in and of itself. Poor boorish behavior based on that acknowledgement is.

And where is the boorish behavior in some of these examples? Where is the boorish behavior in asking someone what their ethnicity is? In short, where are the negative consequences of asking someone where a Chinese restaurant may be? How is asking someone where a Chinese restaurant is treating them rudely, holding them back, etc....?

I sure as hell don't get offended when someone learns where I am from and asks me where to find a good Mexican restaurant. Why? Because I know not a damn bit of offense is meant and that the question does not come from anything negative.

So in essense, stop being so frickin sensitive, cause just noticing you are a little bit different and wondering if that difference means you know something they don't is NOT meant to be rude and it is NOT racist.

[the_std]

So in essense, stop being so frickin sensitive, cause just noticing you are a little bit different and wondering if that difference means you know something they don't is NOT meant to be rude and it is NOT racist.

But why do people have to stop being so sensitive, as you put it? We are all different, different things offend us, and she can be offended by this if she wants to be. I don't see why anyone should have any say in it.

[AFPheonix]

You still don't get it, do you? WHY would someone assume that someone who LOOKS Chinese is 1)Chinese to start, 2)that because they are that ethnicity, they would automatically be imbued with amazing powers to know what good Chinese restaurants are, or anything else stereotypical of that culture?
Not to mention the fact that what a first gen Chinese immigrant might like would totally put off your standard white guy.
I'm not really being that sensitive, I'm being aware of the fact that stereotyping other people by the color of their skin, no matter how innocuous the question, is BAD.
Sorry that you're not getting it. I'm done explaining. Have a nice day.

[Greenday]

AFPheonix, I just think the idea of someone asking where a specific type of resturant is, is the best example of racism.

Let's put it like this: I go to Chinatown and get hungry. I'm by myself and I've never been there before. I'm just going to ask a random person near me for a suggestion. Since the majority of people in Chinatown are Chinese, odds are I'm going to be asking a Chinese person. Does that make it racist if I ask where I can get some good Chinese food then?

I think that's what Zyanya is getting at. It isn't racism every time. It isn't necessarily racism to ask a person if they are of a certain descent. Sometimes a person just wants to chat and make conversation and a person's ancestory can be a really good topic. Nothing racist about that.

[AFPheonix]

I'm not necessarily saying it's racist every time either. I'm saying that the reasons behind why you picked that particular person to ask can be. If Ariana's friend was the only Asian face in a sea of white and someone came up and asked him, wouldn't that seem a little off to you?

[Greenday]

If the person was right next to him at the time, no. But if the person had to move through a huge crowd just to ask him, then yea, I'd wonder what was up with that.

It just seems like there's been a, "Any mention of race in any context is racist" sort of view in this thread. I hadn't seen any of that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't until that last reply, which is what Zyanya seems to be going on.

[Rapscallion]

Why is there no reaction to these descriptors, yet members get questioned if they mention the ethnicity of the other person/people involved?


That's fairly easy to explain.

Those other descriptors generally don't cause a problem in society or on CS. There are a few things that do cause genuine offence - politics, religion, race, tipping, and PETA to name but a few. We've had genuinely racist people on the board before, and looking back at their posts shows that they were dropping hints about their preferences in subtle ways - assumedly to try and draw others of potentially similar mindset out of the woodwork. We have to draw a line somewhere, and that's the main reason we drew the line there.

We did relax the rules a while ago about mentioning race. We decided to trial the idea of allowing racial mentions if it adds description to the scene being portrayed. It's under review, and it would be far easier for us to just scrap it as a rule, since it involves so many grey areas where we have to think about whether it added life to the scene or was possibly offensive.

Rapscallion

[AFPheonix]

If the person was right next to him at the time, no. But if the person had to move through a huge crowd just to ask him, then yea, I'd wonder what was up with that.

It just seems like there's been a, "Any mention of race in any context is racist" sort of view in this thread. I hadn't seen any of that sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't until that last reply, which is what Zyanya seems to be going on.

I've never disagreed with that basic premise either. This is probably the 5th or 6th time I've said that now. Here's my initial post:
I personally think it's an overreaction. It makes as much sense to harp on the race part as it does for someone to harp that she identified him as male. That could be sexist and all.
At this point in the thread, I'm simply making the case (nuanced as it may be) that racism can still exist even in small innocuous ways. That's it. I have a fairly nuanced opinion on this.

[Greenday]

It totally could, and it's quite possible. I just think the majority of the time it's not racist at all.

The only problem is some people are just complete tools and think they are funny by purposely doing it.

[Zyanya]

You still don't get it, do you?

You still don't get it, do you?

The intent of the action matters.


Lets use another example. (in this example, let us assume I am a male)

If I hold open the door for you because you are right behind me and I am a nice person, I am being nice.

If I hold open the door for you because you are a girl and everyone knows girls are frail and need to be pampered, I am being sexist.

See the difference yet?

Now, if I hold open the door for you because you are right behind me and I am a nice person, and then you go ballistic and shout how dare I assume you are a frail little girl who needs the door held open for her, then you would be the sexist.

Now do you get it?

Asking a Chinese person where a Chinese restaurant is COULD be a racist action. But it isn't necessarily a racist action and unless you have another reason to believe it is (the person sneered when he said it, walked through a crowd of white people to ask the question, included some sort of racist monologue when asking the question, etc....) you should not automatically assume the question is racist because frankly, that says something about you. Namely, if you assume all white people are racist, then odds are they will undertake actions you can interpret as racism, such as oh, asking to see your ID when you write a check or telling you the restaurant is currently out of an ingredient in the dish you ordered.

There is no inherent racism involved in wondering if a Chinese person knows something about Chinese food, anymore than there is job-ism involved in wondering if that person in nursing scrubs knows where a pharmacy is located.

[AFPheonix]

I'm not necessarily saying it's racist every time either. I'm saying that the reasons behind why you picked that particular person to ask can be. If Ariana's friend was the only Asian face in a sea of white and someone came up and asked him, wouldn't that seem a little off to you?

You still don't get it, do you?

The intent of the action matters.




Oh look, we're not so far off after all. Seriously, you took three pages of straight arguing when you didn't have to, simply because you didn't really bother reading what I had to say.

[Zyanya]

Oh look, we're not so far off after all. Seriously, you took three pages of straight arguing when you didn't have to, simply because you didn't really bother reading what I had to say.

Funny, seems I said what I did several pages ago. There is a reason I kept asking WHY is the action racist. Funny how you kept ignoring that question. Remember that little bit I said about hypocrisy? Ah well, go ahead and backtrack if you like. My point was proved several pages ago, I'm glad you finally decided to get it.

[the_std]

Okay, in the end, you guys agree. That's great. Your points are made.

[Greenday]

Okay, in the end, you guys agree. That's great. Your points are made.

*douses everyone in confetti*

[AFPheonix]

Funny, seems I said what I did several pages ago. There is a reason I kept asking WHY is the action racist. Funny how you kept ignoring that question. Remember that little bit I said about hypocrisy? Ah well, go ahead and backtrack if you like. My point was proved several pages ago, I'm glad you finally decided to get it.

I said it was racist because stereotyping someone based on their looks is well, racist. I answered your question repeatedly in several different ways.

[DesignFox]

I said it was racist because stereotyping someone based on their looks is well, racist. I answered your question repeatedly in several different ways.

Actually, making an assumption about someone based on their skin color would be prejudiced.

Harboring a hatred or negative opinion of someone based on that observation would be racist.

I don't know how to pull them in here, but I checked definitions via dictionary.com to make sure it wasn't pure interpretation on my part. But there is a subtle difference in definition.

Prejudiced people can be racist...but you can also harbor prejudices without being a racist.

;)

[AFPheonix]

OK, but we can all agree that prejudice in many forms can be bad at least?

Sometimes there's good prejudice, but the case I've been arguing is unhelpful.

[DesignFox]

I agree that prejudices can be bad, Phoenix. I was just pointing out that there is a difference.

[Slytovhand]

OK, but we can all agree that prejudice in many forms can be bad at least?

oh - I dunno... I'm thinking I might just head us off on some completely useless argument and take us nowhere for a bit... and then get a bit narky cos no-one understands what I'm getting at. How does that sound?? :p

Ok.. does 'prejudice' have a good side? I mean, it is still making an unwarranted judgement based on something fairly irrelevant (or have I mis-defined it?)


Zyanya... as for the 'intent' behind the action, while I agree in one sense to what you've said, the problem with it is that people aren't generally telepathic or empathic... so the intent gets somewhat lost in translation. I would have thought that -isms are based on the actions of a person, not their intent (not to say a person can't have racist thoughts..)

But still sort of getting OP... sort of......


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

I think there are prejudices that we all have that are positive for our well being. For example, people tend to have the prejudice that all people who drive while talking on cell phones are dangerous. That to me is a helpful prejudice because it makes people be more aware of the actions of people around them, and can prevent traffic accidents.

While I agree that prejudice and racism are slightly different, they are definitely related, and types of prejudices lead to and justify racism in some people's minds.

[Zyanya]

I said it was racist because stereotyping someone based on their looks is well, racist. I answered your question repeatedly in several different ways.

All people stereotype. As an example, we expect when we see a bipedal hairless ape-being walking down the street in a t-shirt and jeans that it is a human being.

Stereotype is really only a problem when it is used negatively.

As a further example, I expect when I see someone with an 'Order of the Stick' t-shirt on, they are a fan of gaming. I am stereotyping them based on their looks and I could easily be wrong, perhaps they are just a fan of stick figures. But since there is nothing negative or at all mean spirited about my assumption and it is reasonably based, where is the inherent and automatic insult?

The correct answer is that while there may be an insult, it is not right to assume (there is that word again) that it is automatically an insult and that the person making the statement is an ignorant racist.

That is just you making the same mistake you are upset at them making.

I would have thought that -isms are based on the actions of a person, not their intent (not to say a person can't have racist thoughts..)

I believe I illustrated why this is incorrect with my holding open the door example.