Buffet: Tax Wealthier Americans

[tropicsgoddess]

Now THIS I can agree on! Warren Buffet talks about how the middle class and poor are being taxed more than the wealthy and how the wealthy have been getting numerous tax breaks and how the (the wealthy) should be taxed more.

Linky! (http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/15/news/economy/buffett_tax_jobs/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2)

[Andara Bledin]

There are actually several conspicuously wealthy individuals who have stated that they should be paying more in taxes and that the middle class (often where they came from) should get more breaks.

Warren Buffet says it rather more often than most because he understands that if the middle class collapses, they will take the wealthy with them. He takes a long view, whereas most tend to only look at the next couple of years or so.

^-.-^

[jackfaire]

Warren Buffet says it rather more often than most because he understands that if the middle class collapses, they will take the wealthy with them. He takes a long view, whereas most tend to only look at the next couple of years or so.

^-.-^

*facepalm* That and the fact that he has spent much of his life defending the rights of others he is genuinely one of the good guys and has repeatedly shown himself to be ethically and morally sound even if it would benefit himself not to be.

[smileyeagle1021]

Warren Buffet says it rather more often than most because he understands that if the middle class collapses, they will take the wealthy with them. He takes a long view, whereas most tend to only look at the next couple of years or so.



Not just that, but he makes a great point, people aren't going to stop trying to make money because they are taxed on it... even being taxed on the extra income, it is still more than they had before and they will still work for it.

That and I think he understands (unlike the tea party) that the wealthy have not created a single job in this country, not a single one. Oh yes, they have employed quite a few people, but they haven't created a job, it is their middle class customers that are creating the jobs. Without customers creating the demand for products or services, there are no jobs to provide those products or services.
So, he realizes, the middle class collapses and he has no customers, and no customers means his money will start to run out.

[HYHYBT]

Oh, *Warren Buffet.* I thought from the subject that there was some sort of connection between tax rates and all-you-can-eat restaurants.

[jackfaire]

Oh, *Warren Buffet.* I thought from the subject that there was some sort of connection between tax rates and all-you-can-eat restaurants.

lol I gotta confess for a second that was what I thought too.

[Andara Bledin]

The only reason my mind didn't go the same direction is because I don't usually read the thread titles unless someone brings them up.

^-.-^

[guywithashovel]

I saw this piece yesterday, and I actually thought about starting a thread on it.

Here is an article providing a counter to Buffett's remarks.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/08/15/warren-buffetts-very-strange-tax-argument/

[DrFaroohk]

Sometimes I look at all these "big" numbers, and people are like "OMG the taxes are killing me they took 50% of my income!" That's all good and well...except no one cares. No one cares you "only" have 50 million left out of the 100 million you made. I know, its just unfair. You lost 50 million. But you HAVE 50 million!

It's like anyone who's privileged in some area complaining they don't have enough...fat guy complaining about food? no one cares. Manwhore complaining he doesn't have a date tonight? He bangs 2 chicks every day! Who cares if he has an off night!?

Friend of mine, while not in the millionaire bracket, still makes a very comfortable living at something like 150K a year. I know that's not rich, but unless you live in beverly hills, you're doing pretty well. And he whines about his taxes all the time...I try to remind him that while him paying high taxes might mean he can't afford that third beach house in florida, higher taxes for ME means I can't heat my home this winter. Seriously, which is better?

[Rageaholic]

It's nice to see a billionaire actually fighting for the rights of the every day American.

[Greenday]

Sometimes I look at all these "big" numbers, and people are like "OMG the taxes are killing me they took 50% of my income!" That's all good and well...except no one cares. No one cares you "only" have 50 million left out of the 100 million you made. I know, its just unfair. You lost 50 million. But you HAVE 50 million!

I'd be willing to bet that if you had $100 million and somebody walked up to you and said that he was going to take half for the government, you wouldn't be so cool with it.

You know, I find it funny that people with so much money, if they want the government to tax them more, don't just give the government their money. It achieves the same result and even would make them look better. Except they won't because they really don't want to part ways with more money to the government than they have to. I find it to just be a lot of PR talk tbh.

[jackfaire]

You know, I find it funny that people with so much money, if they want the government to tax them more, don't just give the government their money. .


And how the hell would they do that? Donate money to politicians? Last I checked there isn't a process to hand the government money not to mention there would be no oversight your talking a blank check with no review of how it's spent.

[mikoyan29]

It's nice to see a billionaire actually fighting for the rights of the every day American.
There are some people that realize that they got to where they were with the help of other people.

[Jason]

This arguemnet is so frustrating....
Warren Buffet is taxed on Capital Gains which is less than the tax on salary.

Also, according to the IRS figures....
The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income



Which means the "rich" ARE taxed more than the middle class.....

[mikoyan29]

This arguemnet is so frustrating....
Warren Buffet is taxed on Capital Gains which is less than the tax on salary.

Also, according to the IRS figures....
The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income



Which means the "rich" ARE taxed more than the middle class.....
When you cherry pick your stats, yes they are. But when you start adding in the myriad of other taxes that are paid, the figures start to change a bit. For instance, the payroll tax is capped at $125,000 (or so, I don't remember the exact figures). Granted that is nominally for the Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security but it still amounts to a tax. Everybody who drives a vehicle pays gasoline taxes directly and indirectly if they use some sort of public transportation. Everybody also pays tariffs and corporate taxes indirectly as well.

[Evandril]

This arguemnet is so frustrating....

Which means the "rich" ARE taxed more than the middle class.....

But how much of what they are taxed do they pay, and how much does their lawyers make go away? Even saying your figures are correct from the start, I do not believe anyone who has even made a million pays those rates, without adjustment from a professional. You'll notice that Warren Buffet himself flat out said he only paid 17.4%, which is far less than the middle class pays.

[Jason]

You will also notice that I menttioned Warren Buffet is taxed as Capital Gains not salary. Capital Gains is taxed at a much lower rate then compesation.

Those are numbers from the IRS. The percentages paid to the IRS, after the tax professional makes "go away" whatever deductions the "rich" claim. I'm also not talking about property, gasoline, sales, or other taxes.

How much should be taken/taxed/whatever by the government?

[smileyeagle1021]

When you cherry pick your stats, yes they are. But when you start adding in the myriad of other taxes that are paid, the figures start to change a bit. For instance, the payroll tax is capped at $125,000 (or so, I don't remember the exact figures). Granted that is nominally for the Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security but it still amounts to a tax. Everybody who drives a vehicle pays gasoline taxes directly and indirectly if they use some sort of public transportation. Everybody also pays tariffs and corporate taxes indirectly as well.

Social Security is capped at $125k if I remember my tax classes properly, medicare/medicade and income tax have no cap.
There is something to be said about removing the cap on social security tax, it would solve the solvency issues with social security, but that is slightly beside the point.
If we want to look at the tax burden on the poor, I would like to introduce two words to you, "sales tax"
A lot of states charge sales tax on food.
If we are looking at a percentage of income, sales tax alone completely destroys the "rich pay the majority of taxes" argument, especially in states where food is taxed.

[mikoyan29]

You will also notice that I menttioned Warren Buffet is taxed as Capital Gains not salary. Capital Gains is taxed at a much lower rate then compesation.

Those are numbers from the IRS. The percentages paid to the IRS, after the tax professional makes "go away" whatever deductions the "rich" claim. I'm also not talking about property, gasoline, sales, or other taxes.

How much should be taken/taxed/whatever by the government?
Given the hub-bub about Ms. Heinz-Kerry's taxes a few years ago (her percentages were around 15% as well) and Buffet's 17%, something tells me that about 15 to 20% sounds about right for folks in their bracket. So something is not adding up here.

[Sleepwalker]

I would be thrilled I was making that much money. I do not understand the impulse for MORE, MORE that some people have. What else could I possibly need after even one year of making 100 million? Why would I begrudge the government half of that? Are they nazi germany? Why do you hate our country?

;)

[Jason]

"To each according to his need, From each according to his ability"
This quote seems to explain the thoughts in this thread.....anyone know who said it?

[rivenhex]

And how the hell would they do that? Donate money to politicians? Last I checked there isn't a process to hand the government money not to mention there would be no oversight your talking a blank check with no review of how it's spent.

It's pretty simple. Overpay your annual taxes and don't seek a refund. Just cut the check. I bet the government will MAKE a bureaucratic process lickety split if the rich liberal crowd decided to start cutting bigger checks.

I love how they feel a need to codify a higher rate. Just pay it. If you think you aren't paying enough, pay what you think you should. But the idea that everyone else in that bracket (which encompasses a rather wide income range) should be forced to do so is really counter to the principles of our founding. We're not really a free society if someone else can arbitrarily decide you've "made enough". Whatever happened to "equal before the law"?

Additionally, it's not really our business how much money these people have, what they earn annually, or what they spend it on.

[DrFaroohk]

I know this one! It's Marx. Groucho Marx.

[smileyeagle1021]

"To each according to his need, From each according to his ability"
This quote seems to explain the thoughts in this thread.....anyone know who said it?

Umm, I'm going with either Karl Marx or Jesus.

[Jason]

Answer: Karl Marx....as a founding principle of communism.

[Andara Bledin]

For those who are interested and who agree, MoveOn.org Civic Action has an online signature collection going that they will be forwarding to Congress.

I Stand with Warren Buffet petition (http://civ.moveon.org/standwithwarren/)

It's not a legal device, merely a way for people to impress upon those who govern that we're at least interested enough in this issue to take half a minute to type out our names and press a big red button.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

Answer: Karl Marx....as a founding principle of communism.

So Marx said it, therefore its bad?

[Jason]

Isn't communism the antithesis of the american free enterprise society?

[Evandril]

"To each according to his need, From each according to his ability"
This quote seems to explain the thoughts in this thread.....anyone know who said it?

So the fact we're talking about taxing people equally, or even taking the rich more than the middle class, falls into this? In a communist society, there are *no* taxes, since everyone would be given what they need, no more, no less. The fact a true communist society has yet to exist, to the best of my knowledge, is besides the point.

[smileyeagle1021]

Isn't communism the antithesis of the american free enterprise society?

communism is the antithesis of capitalism.
As it is though that we are not truly a pure capitalist society (not really a pure free enterprise society either... or have I been screwing over the businesses that operate our road system for the 7 years since I got my driver's license)
Likewise, Marxism was never truly pure communism either.

We should not ignore different ideas just because they come from a system that leans a different direction than ours.

[mikoyan29]

Isn't communism the antithesis of the american free enterprise society?
what American Free Enterprise? Would that be the same one where the majority of the tax breaks and other breaks go to the large multinationals? Apparently it's only communism if it's some black woman getting food stamps but if one of the more profitable companies in the country doesn't pay taxes and in facts get a couple billion dollar credit..that's Free Enterprise.

[Sleepwalker]

I like how that 'free enterprise society' thing gets snuck in there. Really, isn't applying federal law to southerners the antithesis of confederate american society? Isn't allowing foodstamps to buy non kosher food the antithesis of jewish american society?

Cmon now, I'm sure we can sneaka few more outraged assumptions as to what america is in here. Oooh, I know- government funded animal shelters are the antithesis of ethical animal treatment america!

[Hyena Dandy]

Isn't communism the antithesis of the american free enterprise society?

Maybe. But, you have to prove that this SPECIFIC thing is bad, not just say "It sounds like what Marx said, Marx is a communist, therefore its bad."

You also, if you're up for the challenge, should prove that "the american free enterprise society" is the best society there is.

[Rageaholic]

Maybe. But, you have to prove that this SPECIFIC thing is bad, not just say "It sounds like what Marx said, Marx is a communist, therefore its bad."

You also, if you're up for the challenge, should prove that "the american free enterprise society" is the best society there is.

And who says Captalism is the American way in the first place? It's just an experiment.

[mikoyan29]

So we see where Republicans really stand on lower taxes. Apparently, they want to end the brief Social Security holiday. I guess when the tax cuts benefit the wealthy, they aren't fine but when they benefit everyone else.

[Evandril]

One other point I wanted to mention....Warren Buffet wasn't saying he should *pay* more taxes...He was saying he should be *taxed* more...there is a difference. Similar to you going to a resturant, and getting a bill for $100. You can pay $120 if you'd like, but your bill is still $100...he's asking for his bill to be $120, if that makes sense.