Don't run faster than the other boys

[jackfaire]

I get when the explanation for not using your powers in things like competitions is to protect your secret identity.

I get not using your powers for personal gain if bestowed by TPTB.

What drives me nuts though is if your powers are a matter of biology and normal for you then why is there a restriction on using them for your own person gain?

That's like telling someone, "Well your really smart but you need to try and do badly at school so you don't outshine the other boys"

I hate that trend in books, movies and TV where using your abilities for your own personal gain is somehow bad yet at the same time the message of the show may be about discovering your own talents.

[HYHYBT]

Well, it depends... if someone can read minds, would it not be cheating for them to play poker (with people who don't know)?

[Hyena Dandy]

In some cases, the reason may be that the person has a motivation to keep their talents hidden. Family secret, personal secret, just don't want tostand out, whatever.

[jackfaire]

Well, it depends... if someone can read minds, would it not be cheating for them to play poker (with people who don't know)?

No more than playing poker with someone that can read people's faces well would be. That's my point he isn't violating the rules of the game by using his ability.

For one reading minds in stories shouldn't work in an unrealistic way it should be like how minds work getting impressions ideas etc the way people actually think and they would still be having to interpret them.

And Hyena no I totally get the must protect secret identity case but that either should be given as a reason not, "I am better so it wouldn't be fair" is what bothers me. or characters in a world where it doesn't matter staying a secret yet refusing to use their abilities for their own gain or in cases where it wouldn't be a big deal like washing dishes fast.

Or using your fame to raise money but then for a change not feeling guilty about it since it hurt no one and helps people.

[Nyoibo]

Can you give an example, becuase the only ones I'm coming up with are things like Smallville and the Incredibles and they both give reasons.

[Hyena Dandy]

No more than playing poker with someone that can read people's faces well would be. That's my point he isn't violating the rules of the game by using his ability.


Yes, but the rules of the game are based on the knowledge of the game's creators. If nobody knows you can read minds, or that mind-reading is possible, then there's no way that any safeguard can be taken against it. I can guard against people reading my face by controlling my face. I go into the game knowing that people can read my face.

If its known that people CAN read minds and its still not against the rules of the game, then go ahead. But if you're doing something that not only do people not know you can do, but not know ANYONE can do. Its like the fact that football doesn't have rules against time-traveling and teaching a neanderthal how to kick field goes, then letting him be your kicker. There isn't a rule because nobody knew there needed to be one.

[Racket_Man]

Yes, but the rules of the game are based on the knowledge of the game's creators. If nobody knows you can read minds, or that mind-reading is possible, then there's no way that any safeguard can be taken against it. I can guard against people reading my face by controlling my face. I go into the game knowing that people can read my face.

.

and I will point out how they "handled" the "mind reading" thing in Babalyon 5 with the Psi-Corps. Join or be drugged. and no going rogue. but the Vorlons and the Shadows had super Psi powers.

[jackfaire]

Yes, but the rules of the game are based on the knowledge of the game's creators. If nobody knows you can read minds, or that mind-reading is possible, then there's no way that any safeguard can be taken against it. I can guard against people reading my face by controlling my face. I go into the game knowing that people can read my face.

Why would time traveling and recruiting a neanderthal ever be against the rules. Nothing saying he will be a good kicker or any good at the the game. Not everyone knows that people playing poker can and do read their faces in fact that comes as a surprise to a lot of online poker players that thought they were awesome at the game and found playing in person doesn't have the same result.

Look at it from this point of view. Due to the positioning of the table, the lights and the person's glasses you can see every hand they have reflected in the glasses. Do you tell people that you can see the cards and measures should be taken to prevent that or play on.


Can you give an example, becuase the only ones I'm coming up with are things like Smallville and the Incredibles and they both give reasons.

And Incredibles is the exception that proves the rule. They finally let Dash compete as long as he didn't run fast enough that his secret identity would be caught out. As Dash repeatedly pointed out it was unfair to not let him run competitively when he could easily beat anyone.

As far as Smallville I haven't seen the show so I am going with the movie. I can understand not using your abilities that go beyond being Human when your trying to protect your identity but there should be no reason you cannot use your abilities to win in competitions where you may be better than other people.

Saying Clark can't join the football team or run track because of his powers is BS. You might as well tell Clark he has to sit in a wheelchair even though he doesn't need one because it's unfair to the other boys that he can walk faster than them.

Yes secret identity is always a concern but in the movie it was considered unfair for Clark to compete even though Football is a team sport and just his being better wouldn't guarantee a win if he didn't use anything beyond the scope of human ability.

One of the arguments other than secret ID that I hear is "Well he may forget himself and hurt someone" Then he needs to quit being Superman because the same rules apply. However he has never in the heat of battle, that I know of, used more force than the other person could handle.

If reading your mind was like (other players thought) "I hope he doesn't know I am holding a royal flush" VS (Other players real thoughts) "that song stuck in my head, car, cat, wompom, wooohooo, green, louie louie" and that's just the verbal not mentioning that a lot of the thoughts are visual in fact mind reading would be less reliable than face reading unless you worked on it a lot.

Also complaining someone else has an ability you don't an that's why they shouldn't be allowed to play is like saying that you should be disqualified because it turns out you can run faster than your opponent and they didn't know that.

It's like card counting. It's not considered cheating because it's a natural ability of theirs and they should be allowed to use it. Casinos instead of trying to figure out a way to restructure games to challenge the card counters or simply barring them from any game where card counting helps they blanket ban them.

Last I knew both Roulette and Slots have nothing to do with the ability. Superman in the comics actually often subverted this in a few ways. He would always fly places instead of paying for a plane ticket and waiting through all of that. Also in high school he played team sports.

There was a great Outer Limits episode that covered this line. In the episode everyone wore these devices to make it so everyone was a C student so the smarter kids wouldn't have an "unfair" advantage. Dancers were forced to be mediocre so that anyone could be a dancer and no one would think any one dancer was better than the other.

Hiding your abilities to protect your family makes sense but never using a spell to magic up some food well that doesn't.

Hugely subverted in the Harry Potter series when most witches and wizards use magic in their daily lives. Most shows would have snapped their wands for daring to enjoy the things their magic could bring them.

[HYHYBT]

There's a difference between not using your special abilities in daily life in general (say, Samantha Stevens twitching up dinner instead of spending all afternoon at the stove which, yes, is silly unless she just likes the challenge of it) and spoiling a competition. Should heavyweight and flyweight boxers compete directly against each other? Should Union Pacific's Challenger (http://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trains/steam/locomotives/3985.shtml) sign up for the county tractor pull?

[jackfaire]

Yes they should. It's not competition if you don't compete against the best. To me spoiling a competition was finding out the other guy held back. That spoils a competition if you can beat me then do it. I don't want to win because you held back. That's not winning.

Calling it a "special ability" because no one else can do it is like saying the runner who places first can't run in the next race because the other people can't compete against them.

You can't write that novel because other people trying to publish books don't have one tenth of your "special ability" so your not allowed cuz then other people won't get published.

Chances are that if your the fastest person in the world there are other speedsters and you most likely won't choose to compete against people that don't challenge you.

What if your ability your talent your power whatever you call it is that you never miss?

What if you can look at a fighting style and instantly know it?

Etc. If you want to compete against a person that spent years learning the fighting style it took you 10 seconds to learn it's still gonna be a challenge but according to the rules of "don't use for personal gain" you would excuse yourself from competing when the other person has equal chance to beat you.

If you can fly then slam dunking would be easier for you but it would also be easier for a person that is really tall should both be benched?

That's my point if you still have to adhere to the rules then usually your ability won't give you a leg up on the competition.

In the basketball one flying the ball to the basket would still be traveling.

And typically people who compete at a higher level don't choose to compete at a lower level. Like you said Heavyweight versus Lightweight. You probably wouldn't choose to box someone that couldn't take a real punch from you.

But staying out of the competition entirely because that person is a really good kicker naturally and your power is super agility well what's the difference?

[Hyena Dandy]

Calling it a "special ability" because no one else can do it is like saying the runner who places first can't run in the next race because the other people can't compete against them.


Its a special ability not because nobody can do it, but because nobody knows that ANYONE can do it. If it is against all known physical laws, then yes, I'd consider it cheating. If its known that its possible, then there should either be a rule against it, or not.

[jackfaire]

Okay then say it was known and there were no rules against it then it should be fair. My point is that it doesn't give anymore advantage than say being able to run fastest but it's not the same kind of ability as being able to run fastest.

Like if you could fly but no faster than a human could walk.

[Hyena Dandy]

Delete, reposting

Okay then say it was known and there were no rules against it then it should be fair. My point is that it doesn't give anymore advantage than say being able to run fastest but it's not the same kind of ability as being able to run fastest.


If it exists, and the people running the sport KNOW it exists, then of course its fair to use.

But if the people running don't know it exists, you should at the very least INFORM them that you can do it. Then rules can be implemented, either blanket rules regarding superpowers, or specific rules for the power in question.

If you can fly, even if you can't fly any faster than a normal person can run, it gives you a huge advantage in pretty much any sport I can think of. Except maybe running a race, in which case the power doesn't give you an advantage, so why would you use it? But anyway. That's off topic. What's on topic is.

IF its known that its possible to do, there will almost without a doubt be a rule regarding when, where, and how you can do it.

[jackfaire]

If you can fly, even if you can't fly any faster than a normal person can run, it gives you a huge advantage in pretty much any sport I can think of. Except maybe running a race, in which case the power doesn't give you an advantage, so why would you use it? But anyway. That's off topic. What's on topic is..

Flying would be useful in Football

Useless in just about every other sport I know of.

Basketball it would be traveling.

Soccer you can't use your hands but might help as the goalie.

[Hyena Dandy]

I made a post listing how I could use it in other sports, but then it occurred to me...

Why did you only reply to the part of the post that I finished with by saying "But that's off topic?"

The debate is not about how useful flying is.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Just thought I'd point this one out; Spiderman uses his abilities to make him money, right at the beginning. He becomes a masked wrestler, and wears his costume to hide his identity. Then, when he's at his locker, a thief runs past and Spiderman refuses to stop the thief, cuz he thinks it's nothing to do with him. But when he gets home, he finds out that his uncle Ben was killed by an armed robber. He goes after him, finds him, pulls off his mask... and finds out that the robber was the same thief at the wrestling arena, and if he'd stopped him then, then his uncle would still be alive.

With great power, comes great responsibility... Spiderman learns that using his powers for good is a lot better than simply using them to make himself rich. And that applies to a lot of TV programmes, movies, what have you where there's people with powers.

Also, the X-men use their powers in day to day life; they just can't advertise the fact cuz of the fact that mutants are viewed with suspicion by normal people. The bad guys use their powers all the time to further their own interests. So there's an example for you. XD

[Andara Bledin]

With great power, comes great responsibility... Spiderman learns that using his powers for good is a lot better than simply using them to make himself rich.
And Peter Parker still uses his powers to help himself; he gets some really amazing shots of Spiderman, after all. ;)

^-.-^

[jackfaire]

The debate is not about how useful flying is.

Oh I am sorry let me go back and reply,

"yes mmmhmm your right they should know I totally agree"

You didn't say anything in the on topic stuff I disagree with but in the comic/movie world usually knowing someone has an ability would be followed up with, "But you shouldn't be using it to get ahead."

If people knew Superman types his stories at super speed then they would lecture him about how that's "abusing his powers"

[Hyena Dandy]

I can only think of three examples of characters being told that off the top of my head, though I'm sure you can think of others. And all three are given explanations BEYOND 'because you're abusing your powers'.

Green Lantern, The Incredibles, and the witches on Charmed.

The kid from the Incredibles needs to keep his powers secret. Green Lantern is essentially a policeman, and he should only use his ring for policeman-ing, similar to how cops shouldn't use their sirens to go to the supermarket faster. In Charmed, using powers for personal gain will cause the universe to actively try to screw them over. Whether that's GOOD or not, that's an in-universe reason beyond 'don't do it because I say so'.

Also, Superman usually doesn't use his powers for personal gain, but such a huge part of the character is tied up with only using his powers for good that he won't let HIMSELF get away with it. Perhaps he's being unreasonable, but the idea of 'fair play' is engrained so deeply into his character that if he did, he really wouldn't be Superman.

Spider-man does, in fact, use his powers for personal gain as Spider-Man's personal photographer. Daredevil has the power of echolocation, and he occasionally uses it as Matt Murdoch. Usually he avoids it for the reason a lot of heroes avoid it. Because he doesn't want people to know who he is. The X-Men are, its explained, 'in a world that hates and fears them'. They don't want to cause any more hate and fear than they already have.

[Evandril]

Saying Clark can't join the football team or run track because of his powers is BS. You might as well tell Clark he has to sit in a wheelchair even though he doesn't need one because it's unfair to the other boys that he can walk faster than them.

Yes secret identity is always a concern but in the movie it was considered unfair for Clark to compete even though Football is a team sport and just his being better wouldn't guarantee a win if he didn't use anything beyond the scope of human ability.

One of the arguments other than secret ID that I hear is "Well he may forget himself and hurt someone" Then he needs to quit being Superman because the same rules apply. However he has never in the heat of battle, that I know of, used more force than the other person could handle.


Superman playing football would lead to *lots* of injuries, anytime anyone tried tackling/hitting him, they'd hurt themselves fairly badly.

Superman not taking advantage of his powers I'd say falls more under *who* Superman is...It's just not his style. I'd say the big 'problem' with using your abilities for your own gain is knowing when is enough...Since the logical progression of using your powers for your own profit tends to lead to being a super villan, rather than a hero. The nature of your powers makes a difference, as well...Wolverine was a soldier fairly regularly, that being a natural use for his abilities and training. Dazzle worked as an entertainer, using her powers within her show, Iron Man both used his armor for company projects, and his tech for various things. I'll admit, I'd love to see things like "Flash's Delivery Service, $1mil per run!"