MS & Personhood At Conception

[FArchivist]

So it looks like Mississippi is about ready to pass the Personhood Amendment to their state constitution, defining life as beginning at conception. (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/10/mississippi_personhood_amendment.html) I'm just going to sit back and watch this with a whole lot of schadenfreude, because they really don't understand the legal consequences of such an amendment. (http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20110910/OPINION/109100306/Personhood-Amendment-could-unintended-effects)

Aside from the elimination of all IVF and the inherent problems with tubal pregnancies and stem cell treatments, I will be anxiously awaiting on tenterhooks for the first state official's family that has a miscarriage. Why? Because, since the miscarried fetus was a person at conception, that makes it a possible homicide. Or at the least, manslaughter. IT'S PROSECUTION TIME! :devil:

[Andara Bledin]

What a massive waste of taxpayer dollars.

^-.-^

[HYHYBT]

Why would a natural miscarriage not be considered a natural death, the same as if a sickly newborn died?

[Gravekeeper]

Its kind of amazing how determined some of your states are to drag the rest of you kicking and screaming back into the Dark Ages. -.-

[fireheart17]

Why would a natural miscarriage not be considered a natural death, the same as if a sickly newborn died?

Some products can induce a miscarriage, but are your average legal everyday products i.e. caffeine, vitamin C, certain herbs and such etc.

Would you really want to ban the sale of those products to pregnant women?

[FArchivist]

Why would a natural miscarriage not be considered a natural death, the same as if a sickly newborn died?

Let's say you have a miscarriage. You say it's natural. Normally, that would be the end of it - a fetus is not a person and that just happens sometimes.

But if the fetus is a person from point of conception, everything changes legally. You saying "I just had a spontaneous natural miscarriage." is the equivalent of saying "Oh, my 15-year-old teenage son died in his sleep last night. Naturally."

Assuming that your 15-year-old didn't have a terminal disease, the police are going to be right curious as to how he kicked the bucket. You'll have an autopsy, a preliminary investigation at the least, and a full-on homicide investigation if the autopsy warrants it.

Under this amendment, they're going to do the same with this fetus. Why? Because legally, this fetus has all of the rights and privileges of any minor, be they 3, 8, or 15. It's no different, legally. So, they're going to need to do an autopsy, a preliminary investigation at the least, and a full-on homicide investigation if the autopsy warrants it.

After all, you could be lying. You could have committed a homicide, by an induced miscarriage. There could be all sorts of motives - financial, emotional, etc. And it's not a feticide anymore - no, under fetal personhood, an abortion is cold-blooded 1st degree murder, eligible for the death penalty if it exists in your state. Same would go for an self-induced miscarriage. Let's say you had an accident, fell down some stairs, and miscarried? That's manslaughter. You miscarried because a car hit your car and the accident hurt you enough? Vehicular homicide on the part of the crasher.

Really, all you need to do is replace "fetus" with "15-year-old" and that presents all of the reasons why. Because with fetal personhood, there's no difference between the two.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I live in MS. This should be fun. I suspect the law will eventually be blocked/struck down by the Supreme Court, much like the Texas sonogram law.

[Panacea]

I live in MS. This should be fun. I suspect the law will eventually be blocked/struck down by the Supreme Court, much like the Texas sonogram law.

Very likely you are right. Even though we have a conservative Court, I think they will recognize the legal can of worms this constitutional amendment would create, and will block its implementation (since even a state constitution doesn't trump federal) even if they are leaning more towards overturning Roe v Wade.

[Rageaholic]

And this is why I'm leaning more pro choice every day.

[bara]

Some times I feel as though my country is a train wreck in slow motion... and Im on the damn train and cant get off.

[blas87]

I'm really torn on this because I see silly and outrageous a woman could be criminally charged for having a miscarriage. Lots of women miscarry in early weeks/months of pregnancy, for various natural reasons that are no fault of their own.

I don't think personhood should be defined at conception, and I believe abortion should always be available to a woman in need of one. I've never been in a pregnant woman's shoes and I never want to be. I'd hate to have to make that kind of decision.

[Panacea]

I just want the government out of my personal life.

The same people who argue for limited government are the same ones who want to legislate people's sexual and reproductive lives.

The question of when does "humanness" begin is one that can't be answered arbitrarily. Science can't prove it. Neither can religion.

It's a decision that needs to be made by the woman who has to carry the child.

It's one thing to offer resources and options. Another to criminalize or emotionally blackmail someone into following YOUR morals.

[Greenday]

The same people who argue for limited government are the same ones who want to legislate people's sexual and reproductive lives.

That's because to them, "limited government" is only in relations to their wallet. They want to continue to legislate other people's personal lives.

[HYHYBT]

Although at the extremes each would affect the other, given a choice I'd far rather have meddling in my finances than in my personal relations.

[Greenday]

So I saw on Fox News tonight that the bill is up for a vote. And they were SLAMMING the bill.

You know when Fox News says it's too conservative that it's WAYYYYYYYYYY too conservative.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Official as of about an hour ago: the MS personhood initiative has been defeated.

[Greenday]

Official as of about an hour ago: the MS personhood initiative has been defeated.

Victory for human rights!

Though it's scary that 44-45% of the people in MS voted for it.

[mikoyan29]

I remember hearing a statistic somewhere that 25% of all pregnancies end in a miscarriage at some point. I think in the first trimester, there is a pretty high chance of a miscarriage. In many cases those miscarriages are within the first couple weeks of pregnancy and the woman wasn't even aware that she may have been pregnant. So if this law would have passed, we would have to put more already overworked policemen investigating stuff that is fairly routine.

[Duelist925]

I remember hearing a statistic somewhere that 25% of all pregnancies end in a miscarriage at some point. I think in the first trimester, there is a pretty high chance of a miscarriage. In many cases those miscarriages are within the first couple weeks of pregnancy and the woman wasn't even aware that she may have been pregnant. So if this law would have passed, we would have to put more already overworked policemen investigating stuff that is fairly routine.


This right here is why this bill filled be with a strange mix of fear and schadenfraude style interest....since it could have led to many a new kind of "witchhunt". Dont like that Cindy the office manager didn't give you that raise? Start a rumour she'd been pregnant....and miscarried.

Pissed at your teacher for failing you? Give an "anonymous" tip to the cops that she induced a miscarriage a few weeks after conception.

It could have led to many a woman undergoing an intrusive medical procedure just to prove she'd never been pregnant in the first place.

[senor boogie woogie]

Abortion is the killing of human life.

Most abortions are done out of convience. Who put their own needs above the life of the child growing inside them.

People who do abortions are not doctors in the literal sense. The Hippocratic oath states "First, do no harm." Well, killling a growing baby in incubation is doing harm. The psychological pain that this will bring the mother is doing harm. The common side effect of the woman not bearing anymore children is doing harm. It doesn't take that much talent to take a vaccum tube and suck the child's brains out.

These abortion mills make millions of dollars per year! An abortion costs several hundred dollars, they aren't free! Abortion is somthing that is done as a last result of birth control.

I do however support teaching about sex and contraception in schools. I would teach abstinance as a choice, but I want teenagers to have the tools and the information out there to know about pregnancy and STD's. My mother told me as a teen to wear a condom and that I can buy them anywhere, and I once challenged a store clerk when I was 16 who tried to refuse me the sale of condoms and got my condoms.

Now I and my wife want children of our own and cannot have any, and I would love to have a child of our own. This is why I get so pissed off at these pro choice people. Unfortunately most of the people that are anti-kill you baby crowd are chucklehad Christians which makes the anti-abortion people that much easier to bash.

Dont kill your child. There are many people who want to adopt.

[AdminAssistant]

There are two problems with your position, senor.

First, if I am assaulted, I should not be forced to carry the child of my attacker. If I learn that my child will be born with a severe birth defect, I should not be forced to carry the child so that I can watch it die in my arms. If I learn that attempting to carry the child to term and deliver it will put my life at significant risk, I should have the right to protect my own life.

Second, where do you draw the line if all abortions are banned? Do you also ban the morning-after pill? Oral contraceptives and IUDs? Do you then punish women who have ectopic pregnancies and have the gall to want to live?

Oh, and hell fucking yes my needs come first. That's why I have a copper IUD, because I want a life and career. Because we are not in a financial position to raise a child. We are doing the responsible thing by not having children. Because abstinence isn't an option for me. (It isn't an option for most people, and anyone who thinks otherwise is incredibly naive.)

Religion is a significant part of the problem. Most of the anti-choice folks are fundies. They are the ones forcing abstinence only sex ed in the school systems. They are the ones telling the world that birth control and condoms are evil, dirty, and of the devil.

However, most importantly, you are wanting the United States government to interfere in what should be a medical decision between a woman and her healthcare provider.

[linguist]

Dont kill your child. There are many people who want to adopt.

if this is the case, why are there so many children in the system who aren't being adopted?

[Gravekeeper]

Most abortions are done out of convience. Who put their own needs above the life of the child growing inside them.


Citation needed. An abortion is a major decision in anyone's life. It is hardly "out of covenience".



People who do abortions are not doctors in the literal sense. The Hippocratic oath states "First, do no harm." Well, killling a growing baby in incubation is doing harm.

Opinion only.



The psychological pain that this will bring the mother is doing harm. The common side effect of the woman not bearing anymore children is doing harm. It doesn't take that much talent to take a vaccum tube and suck the child's brains out.

As opposed to the psychological pain of forcing a woman to bear the child of her attacker, or forcing a woman to bear a child she is not mentally, emotionally or financially capable of enduring or supporting.



These abortion mills make millions of dollars per year!

Hah! Yeah, thats it, its a money making scheme. >.>


This is why I get so pissed off at these pro choice people. Unfortunately most of the people that are anti-kill you baby crowd are chucklehad Christians which makes the anti-abortion people that much easier to bash.

Its easy to bash because many of the arguments are flawed, crazy or based on religion, and they all ultimately involve removing a woman's rights. You don't have to like it, but it is their right and as long as you advocate taking away rights, I will stand in front of you.



Dont kill your child. There are many people who want to adopt.

You act like a pregnancy ain't no big thing and you can just pop it out and be done with. Ignoring the physical and emotional toll, possible life threatening complications, especially for young mothers, and 9 months of social stigma.

[fireheart17]

OK my turn to attack this post:

Most abortions are done out of convience. Who put their own needs above the life of the child growing inside them.

Women are not walking incubators. Women are not walking incubators. I can also provide some data that shows that abortion is usually done due to condom failure-not necessarily misuse, just that the condom broke mid-intercourse. (this is the link I use (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/abortion-not-used-as-birth-control/story-e6frea83-1225874718678)


People who do abortions are not doctors in the literal sense. The Hippocratic oath states "First, do no harm." Well, killling a growing baby in incubation is doing harm. The psychological pain that this will bring the mother is doing harm. The common side effect of the woman not bearing anymore children is doing harm. It doesn't take that much talent to take a vaccum tube and suck the child's brains out.

A friend of mine had an abortion and can still have children (she's on the Implanon, her abortion was due to health reasons). A woman I know had two ectopic pregnancies (where abortion is the only option) and has since gone on to have a child.

In fact, a few worldwide reviews (http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/safety_of_abortion.html#n4)have stated that out of the number of women who do have abortions, the number of women who are complication-free is 97%. 2.5% have some very minor complications that can be fixed immediately, while the remainder have serious ones.


These abortion mills make millions of dollars per year! An abortion costs several hundred dollars, they aren't free! Abortion is somthing that is done as a last result of birth control.


OK, I'm going to guess that your first language isn't English based on the fact that it's to be used as a "last RESORT" but abortion "mills" do not make millions every year. In fact, I do believe that plastic surgeons make more from the vapid and vain.

I do however support teaching about sex and contraception in schools. I would teach abstinance as a choice, but I want teenagers to have the tools and the information out there to know about pregnancy and STD's.

This I agree on, although try not to make it abstinence-only. There's some proof out there that being armed with this info doesn't make teenagers want to go and do the horizontal salsa.



Dont kill your child. There are many people who want to adopt.

There are plenty of children in care. They have been abandoned by their parents for whatever reason. We should not be forcing out MORE babies simply because parents who can't have children want a "cute" baby to raise.

I'll say it simply: Women are not walking incubators.

[Andara Bledin]

Most abortions are done out of convience. Who put their own needs above the life of the child growing inside them.
Have you ever listened to the emergency instructions when you fly? When they get to talking about the oxygen masks, they make a point of etlling you to put your mask on first. Of course the mother's needs come first: if her needs aren't met, then it's possible that neither her nor the baby will make it.

The psychological pain that this will bring the mother is doing harm.
Most women feel relief afterward, not regret or "psychological pain."

The common side effect of the woman not bearing anymore children is doing harm.
A properly performed abortion will do nothing to prevent a woman from conceiving and carrying to term.

There are many people who want to adopt.
There are more children out there than there are people willing and able to adopt them.

According to this article (http://blog.childtrends.org/2011/05/31/waiting-to-be-adopted/) at Child Trends, about a quarter of the children currently in the foster care and CPS systems will never be adopted. That's 30,000 children who will never have a stable home to grow up in.

^-.-^

[Greenday]

Who put their own needs above the life of the child growing inside them.

I fail to see the problem with this.

I'd rip the rest of the post, but I'd say the past few people have done a good enough job.

[Eisa]

Not much to say, but I will say this.

If my rapist ex-boyfriend had gotten me pregnant, I would have had an abortion or killed myself. I decided that quite calmly.

[bara]

Here is the thing about abortion that made me pro-choice.

Once you start limiting the number of 'convenience abortions', or try attempting to draw lines in the sand, then you are back onto the slippery slope leading to not allowing them at all.

[Boozy]

Now I and my wife want children of our own and cannot have any, and I would love to have a child of our own. This is why I get so pissed off at these pro choice people.

My husband and I can't have children either, but we don't expect the fertile women of the world to produce babies for us. Their bodies and lives are their own, and what they decide to do with them is not my call.

[Sleepwalker]

My god. You oppose abortion because you want to force a woman to create and birth a child for you. Because these women are putting themselves before YOUR desire for a child.

[Akasa]

Its MY body. If I don't want to carry a baby to term I shouldn't be forced to. Personally I would give the baby up for adoption, but I shouldn't be forced to carry it. And this MS law would have made it illegal to terminate ectopic pregnancies. Do you know what those are? Let me tell you. Those are pregnancies that will NEVER come to term. In fact if left alone it will KILL both the mother and the fetus. So an abortion is needed, but under this law it would have been illegal. So countless women would have needlessly died because some assholes had it in their minds not even the life of the mother was more important than the BABY!

That's the kind of thinking that disgusts me about the pro-choice movement. It's all about the BABY screw the life of the mother! She's just an incubator to MAKE BABIES!

[fireheart17]

That's the kind of thinking that disgusts me about the pro-choice movement. It's all about the BABY screw the life of the mother! She's just an incubator to MAKE BABIES!

I think you mean pro-life :lol:

Pro-choice folk consider the mothers rights.

[HYHYBT]

Abortion is the killing of human life.Before using that as a basis for arguing against abortion, at the barest minimum you need to change it to "abortion is the killing of a person." After all, every cell of the body is human life, even cancerous ones.

And before you have any reasonable expectation of those on the other side taking you seriously in any way, you need to prove that the zygote or whatever is indeed a person. Not a potential person, not something that is gradually becoming a person, but a person, as-is. That's *prove,* not merely state, and no cheating by passing laws to declare it so or anything like that.

[Akasa]

I think you mean pro-life :lol:

Pro-choice folk consider the mothers rights.

You're right, I was worked up.

[SkullKing]

Not to mention we already have too many people in this planet.

Superpopulation is a very real and very grave problem

[bara]

You're right, I was worked up.

Understandable, its a charged subject.

[fireheart17]

You're right, I was worked up.

That's understandable, abortion is always a hot-button topic.

I just didn't want someone to come on here and get hte wrong idea about pro-choice folks :lol:

[FArchivist]

Abortion is the killing of human life.

According to which definition of life?

Most abortions are done out of convience.

Wrong. (http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html)

Who put their own needs above the life of the child growing inside them.

If you don't put your own needs first, you will be unable to meet the needs of your children.

People who do abortions are not doctors in the literal sense.

That is not true.

The Hippocratic oath states "First, do no harm." Well, killling a growing baby in incubation is doing harm.

That depends entirely on how you define "harm". When an abortion occurs, it is primarily because letting the fetus grow to full term and be born would cause more harm than aborting would. "Harm" is an extremely complex thing to calculate.

The common side effect of the woman not bearing anymore children is doing harm.

This is not a common side effect. That is a myth. (http://www.prochoice.org/pregnant/common/myths.html)

It doesn't take that much talent to take a vaccum tube and suck the child's brains out.

Even though that's not what occurs, that is frankly untrue. It would take GREAT skill to be able to do that.

These abortion mills make millions of dollars per year! An abortion costs several hundred dollars, they aren't free!

From the myth link above.

Myth:
People who do abortions make a lot of money. They just want my money. They don't care about me.

Fact:
The cost of abortion has risen much less than the cost of most other medical procedures. Abortion providers generally charge less for their services than physicians in other specialties.

Now I and my wife want children of our own and cannot have any, and I would love to have a child of our own. This is why I get so pissed off at these pro choice people. Unfortunately most of the people that are anti-kill you baby crowd are chucklehad Christians which makes the anti-abortion people that much easier to bash.

1) IVF is your friend.
2) Adoption is an option, if you have the money.
3) You have personal problems and you want to use those as an excuse to force others to have children? That's morally disgusting.

Dont kill your child. There are many people who want to adopt.

It ain't that easy. Adoption first requires the consent of BOTH parents and the agreement of a court to sever parental rights. THEN, if someone wants to adopt a kid, it costs at least $30-40K to do so - something you probably already know if you can't have children and want one and have researched adoption.

You're doing a lot of talking out your ass here.

[Nyoibo]

Abortion is the killing of human life.


Unless it can survive on its own, it's a parasite, no one bats an eye at destroying any other parasite living in the body.



People who do abortions are not doctors in the literal sense. The Hippocratic oath states "First, do no harm." Well, killling a growing baby in incubation is doing harm.

No, it doesn't actually state that.

Modern version
"I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous"

Another modern version
"I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism"

Clasic version
"I will apply dietic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice"

Original translation
"I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone."

Advents in modern medicine have rendered many parts of the hippocratic oath obsolete.

[fireheart17]

Original translation
"I will prescribe regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm to anyone."

Advents in modern medicine have rendered many parts of the hippocratic oath obsolete.

Thank you, I just thought of something that would definitely render that obsolete: chemotherapy. Or any form of immunosuppression. That is doing harm to the patient by wiping out their bodies defence system so they can introduce a lifesaving measure and not have the body reject it.