The problem with "religious rights"

[Rageaholic]

is that for some people, their "rights" are the right to discriminate against others they don't like (Usually LGBT).

Shorter University forced employees to sign a pledge denouncing certain lifestyles. (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/shorter-university-ga-requires-employees-sign-pledge-gay-article-1.969789?localLinksEnabled=false)


"Employees who sign the pledge promise to reject homosexuality, as well as premarital sex, adultery and other behavior the school says violates the Bible's teaching."

Now I know this is a private religious school and anyone willingly working with them should expect them to have some rather... outdated views, but seriously? Is this pledge really necessary? In fact, I'd say it's borderline discrimination.

Which brings up my next point, Michigan's anti bullying law. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/03/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-senator-bullying-bill_n_1073928.html) It apparently makes exceptions for those with "a sincerely held religious conviction" which isn't good for victims who are LGBT.

Now I don't know much about this law or anti bullying laws in general. In fact, I suspect that there is a bit of emotionalism and embellishing going on, but the fact remains that this bill makes exceptions for those who are religious. I don't know the extent, but I don't know why they felt the need the include that. What makes religious people any more right than non religious?

This is why so many people are fed up with the religious right. They cry persecution when they are forced to acknowladge "sinners" as people. They get on their high horse about how their rights are being violated, but they want to continue to violate the rights of others. Bullshit. Just because we're more open and accepting than before doesn't mean that Christians are being oppressed. The only Christians who are a minority are the fundamentalist nutcases, and considering that they have such backwards views, I think that's a good thing.

[Kheldarson]

Okay, on the first one, that's pretty standard for any privately run Christian school. The fact that they're pointing out the homosexuality is rather ick, but whatever. But the pledge is technically a necessity for them. Sure, they have to hire atheists and such, but since they, and the parents who want their children there, want to know that whoever is teaching them will teach them in the way they want to be taught.

The second...is a bit more worrying. I don't agree with that at all.

I don't think either group needs to force themselves on the other, but the religious aren't more right than another.

[smileyeagle1021]

I've heard a lot of people saying that it seems fair for pagan children to bully Christian children for foolishly rejecting the old ways and the old gods and see just how long this law stays on the books.

edit for clarity, I was referring to the Christian children that are using their religion as an excuse for bad behavior themselves... while two wrongs don't necessarily make a right, at least it isn't involving more innocent bystanders, and will probably put a lot of pressure on the powers that be to close that loophole.

[Kheldarson]

Except pagan households don't even hold to the "old" ways either.

[Andara Bledin]

Except pagan households don't even hold to the "old" ways either.
But if religion can be used as an out for being punished for bullying, it doesn't matter if nobody follows the old ways, just that you can claim your faith demands that you bully your classmates.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

But if religion can be used as an out for being punished for bullying, it doesn't matter if nobody follows the old ways, just that you can claim your faith demands that you bully your classmates.


Mine demands I mock and deride idiots. I'm sure Buddha totally approves...<cough>.

[Rageaholic]

I've heard a lot of people saying that it seems fair for pagan children to bully Christian children for foolishly rejecting the old ways and the old gods and see just how long this law stays on the books.

That's a good idea. Bully back the Christian bullies and claim a "sincere religious conviction". Nothing like finding a loophole in a loophole.

[Hyena Dandy]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2011/11/03/the-intolerant-antinomy-revisited/

I think that's a rather interesting commentary on the whole "Tolerate my intolerance" thing...

[smileyeagle1021]

That's a good idea. Bully back the Christian bullies and claim a "sincere religious conviction". Nothing like finding a loophole in a loophole.

Exactly, there is something poetic about using their own law against them

[Andara Bledin]

As poetic as it would be, all it would do is drop you down to the rank of asshole bully and do as much nothing about the problem as the law does in the first place.

^-.-^

[Rageaholic]

I'm not talking about bullying all Christians, just the ones who are bullies.

[Kheldarson]

Even then, that just puts you at their level. Does acting like an EW when approached by an EW work at all?

[Rapscallion]

I'd be fine with that in this case. They set in process a law to allow them to discriminate, so I think it's fine to turn that same law on them.

Rapscallion

[Hyena Dandy]

You're not bullying the people who set the law up, though.

[SkullKing]

Even then, that just puts you at their level. Does acting like an EW when approached by an EW work at all?

I Strongly disagree with this statement.

Fighting back an attacker does NOT put you in the same level as the attacker, It Raises you.

[Iseeyouthere]

I Strongly disagree with this statement.

Fighting back an attacker does NOT put you in the same level as the attacker, It Raises you.

Depends on the method and situation.
But I agree.
Loop-hole in a loop-hole. Who will cry first?

[IDrinkaRum]

... as long as the kids doing the bullying hold a religious belief that being gay is wrong (http://wonkette.com/455735/michigan-gop-approves-bullying-gay-kids-as-long-as-its-moral)

[smileyeagle1021]

You're not bullying the people who set the law up, though.

Yes, but these people are the children of the people who pushed for this loophole... just watch how quickly these people will change the law when their spawn (I hate to call them children when they are raised so badly) are the victims of the loophole they created.

[HYHYBT]

Grrrrrr...

[Hyena Dandy]

Yes, but these people are the children of the people who pushed for this loophole... just watch how quickly these people will change the law when their spawn (I hate to call them children when they are raised so badly) are the victims of the loophole they created.

They're already getting a bad upbringing, let's make things worse for them. :)

[fireheart17]

One thing that made me laugh in the comments about that was that eventually they will end up being choked to death by their own loophole. Someone can have a different definition of "gay" and then go out and beat a Bible-Basher because it's their "religious belief." :lol:

[Nyoibo]

Just remember your deeply held religeous beliefe that all who worship something other than you must be ridiculed and tormented, I don't believe in God, therefore those who do must be ridiculed and tormented and it's my protected right to do so. :p

[fireheart17]

Just remember your deeply held religeous beliefe that all who worship something other than you must be ridiculed and tormented, I don't believe in God, therefore those who do must be ridiculed and tormented and it's my protected right to do so. :p

Oh lord you and I do think alike :runaway:

If that were the case here, I think my first target would be a certain so-called "Church" who's recently been held up in the Supreme Court against Paradise Community Church :whistle:

[Boozy]

Mod Note:

I've merged two threads that both deal with the Michigan bullying law. Apologies if it makes them slightly more difficult to follow.

Thank you to the member who reported them.

[Hyena Dandy]

I Strongly disagree with this statement.

Fighting back an attacker does NOT put you in the same level as the attacker, It Raises you.

But we haven't said "Defend yourself against attackers". The bullying law shouldn't (and it might, but it shouldn't from what I've read) count against children who are being bullied defending themselves. To take advantage of the loophole, you would need to go and seek-out Christian children to bully. As Nyoibo said.

I don't believe in God, therefore those who do must be ridiculed and tormented and it's my protected right to do so.

That's the only way you can take advantage of the loophole.

Additionally, despite my snide comments earlier, I would like to reply to

Yes, but these people are the children of the people who pushed for this loophole... just watch how quickly these people will change the law when their spawn (I hate to call them children when they are raised so badly) are the victims of the loophole they created.


I do not think its acceptable to torment children in order to exert pressure on their parents.

Look, I was bullied pretty badly throughout school. I nearly killed myself three times. I think we've all been bullied at some point. I STILL get panic attacks when I think of my old middle/elementary school. For me, at least, the bullying was extremely traumatic. I don't want anyone to have to go through something like that. The idea that people on this forum, who I know and respect, are advocating bullying severely disturbs me. Even if it is jokingly.

If you're being bullied, and defend yourself, good for you. The anti-bullying law doesn't apply to you if you do it. For it to apply, you need to be actively bullying someone who DIDN'T approach you and taunt you first. The reaction to this loophole should be "This is a terrible, immoral thing." Not, "Oh yeah? Well now we can bully you!"

That really, really scares me.

[tropicsgoddess]

That Michigan bullying law still opens up discrimination and hate towards the LGBT community and I can foresee (unfortunately) the religious nutbags using that law to their advantage to bully the LGBT "in the name of their beliefs". As for the Shorter University lifestyle pledge, that's a crock of shit. It's not like the school is a religious convent or nunnery! What teachers do on their own time shouldn't be anybody's business (so long as it's not illegal or involving inappropriate relations with students).

[Hyena Dandy]

That Michigan bullying law still opens up discrimination and hate towards the LGBT community and I can foresee (unfortunately) the religious nutbags using that law to their advantage to bully the LGBT "in the name of their beliefs" I completely agree, its a horrible law. But I don't think we should say "Okay, all pagans, go bully the Christians now." The idea of encouraging bullying against anyone, for any reason, severely disturbs me.

[Zod]

Now I know this is a private religious school and anyone willingly working with them should expect them to have some rather... outdated views, but seriously? Is this pledge really necessary? In fact, I'd say it's borderline discrimination.

It is absolutely discrimination : but it is a private religous school : is it so unreasonable that they'd only want to hire people who subscribe to their beliefs?


It apparently makes exceptions for those with "a sincerely held religious conviction" which isn't good for victims who are LGBT.

Does this apply to all religions, or just Christians?

Seems like an easy way to sabotage this one would be to casually mention to the people proposing it that it would allow hardcore Muslims to bully women who don't wear burka ( for example ) - because it's their "sincerely held religious conviction" that all women should cover up.

[Duelist925]

...

Does this apply to all religions, or just Christians?

Seems like an easy way to sabotage this one would be to casually mention to the people proposing it that it would allow hardcore Muslims to bully women who don't wear burka ( for example ) - because it's their "sincerely held religious conviction" that all women should cover up.

That....that is scarily, Scarily brilliant. It just might work.