Mum loses right to have daughter baptised

[fireheart17]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/mum-loses-biblical-row/story-e6frea6u-1226229775274

In short, the mother didn't lose custody of the child, just the right to baptise her child. Methinks that this will probably result in a baptism which occurs outside of the church (i.e. with a priest out on the beach). The mother's logic is what surprises me "her daughter was asking about baptism and [she] thought it would help her fit in".

[HYHYBT]

This is not something courts have any business in.

[Rapscallion]

Sometimes courts are the only place a resolution can be attained, but quite frankly my attitude to this is 'meh'. I'm not even certain why a fairly minor squabble between an estranged couple is even in the news like this.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

This is not something courts have any business in.

The mother wanted her child to be baptized, while the estranged and atheist father felt that was wrong. The court made the right decision - let the child grow up and decide for herself. Considering that many churches won't baptize those under the age of 12, it's a very good decision.

[Hyena Dandy]

Wait, I'm confused about the 'asked about baptism'.

Was it "Can I be baptized, I'm being teased about it?" or "What's a baptism and why don't I have one?"

Because from my perspective, those should result in different solutions.

[Gravekeeper]

From the sounds of it, mom is doing whatever she can to stir shit up with dad. The judge's decision is perfectly reasonable and correct here. Which is why this is from Australia.

If it was in the US, this would be a shit storm. >.>

Also, the Telegraph has the best article image (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/family-split-over-baptism-of-seven-year-old-daughter/story-e6freuzi-1226229738099) possible for this.

[Rapscallion]

Also, the Telegraph has the best article image (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/family-split-over-baptism-of-seven-year-old-daughter/story-e6freuzi-1226229738099) possible for this.

I'm a bad man. I was hoping for a fire hose.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

This is not something courts have any business in.

Why? Considering I feel exactly opposite about this case, I'd like to know why the court shouldn't be a part of this? A legal dispute was going on and from my understanding, that's what courts are for.

[Panacea]

Baptism is a very touchy issue among some Christian sects.

For Catholics, not being baptized means you are not a Child of God and your soul cannot go to Heaven. That's why children are baptized early, in infancy.

For other faiths, baptism means an affirmation of accepting Christ as your personal savior and is more appropriately done in adulthood as a conscious choice. The Anabaptists are an example of this.

[Andara Bledin]

I've never been baptized. It's one of those rituals that I don't have any use for. But if other people need some physical ritual to prove to themselves or others that they are one of the faithful, they can have it.

But I do agree that it should not be done to those not yet old enough to even understand what's happening; that sucks all of the meaning out of it and makes it nothing more than just a ritual, and rather against the teachings of the Bible.

^-.-^

[Panacea]

I've never been baptized. It's one of those rituals that I don't have any use for. But if other people need some physical ritual to prove to themselves or others that they are one of the faithful, they can have it.

But I do agree that it should not be done to those not yet old enough to even understand what's happening; that sucks all of the meaning out of it and makes it nothing more than just a ritual, and rather against the teachings of the Bible

I've never been baptized, either. My parents believed that should be a choice I made on my own when I was old enough to understand what religion is all about. Since I've never formally joined any chuch, I've never been baptized.

I don't see baptism as a requirement of faith. What's required (in Christianity) is acceptance of Jesus Christ, and belief in His Death and Resurrection.

However, I also don't see baptism as harmful for infants or very young children. I know plenty of people who were baptized as infants; whether or not they turned out good or bad was always an issue of their own choices and not whether or not water was splashed on their forehead in a formal ritual. And I've never heard anyone claim harm from being baptized.

The ritual is an affirmation of faith and connection with God. What you get out of it depends a lot on what your relationship with God is like. If you don't have one, you get . . . nothing.

One of my nieces was formally baptized in the Methodist Church, even though her mother (at the time) was Wiccan (she's now an atheist) and her father is and was at the time a non-practicing Methodist. For him, the ceremony was about family traditions, which were and are very important to him. For her, it was about making her husband happy, which was and is very important to her.

It was a lovely ceremony. I attended, and enjoyed it. It was a time of bonding between family and friends. My niece was an infant, and so remembers nothing about it; I can't say it's harmed her in any way. She's a pretty typical, well adjusted teen starting to go through "that stage" where she's establishing her own independence and identity.

[Gravekeeper]

I was baptized ( and curiously enough, the water didn't burn me nor did the candles get mysteriously extinguished by a sudden gust of ill wind that blew the doors open. Well, actually I've never asked, so maybe it did ). But it was because my dad's side of the family is die hard Irish Roman Catholic and they breed like rabbits, so they outnumbered my mom's by 5 to 1. >.>

My mom put up with it till I was about 5 when my grandparents traumatized me by sending me to confession. At which point she pulled me out of the RCC, forbid them from dragging me to church anymore and sent me to hippy Jesus sunday school. Hippy Jesus school involved a lot of colouring. It was a vast improvement.



I don't see baptism as a requirement of faith. What's required (in Christianity) is acceptance of Jesus Christ, and belief in His Death and Resurrection.

Objection. I think historical Jesus would be pretty chill with people merely listening to his wisdom, and his death and resurrection are iffy topics depending on the sect. They are not what I would refer to as required compliance for all of Christianity.

Also, I am leary of any proclaimation of required belief in order to be let into the tree house.

[fireheart17]

Baptism is a very touchy issue among some Christian sects.

For Catholics, not being baptized means you are not a Child of God and your soul cannot go to Heaven. That's why children are baptized early, in infancy.

For other faiths, baptism means an affirmation of accepting Christ as your personal savior and is more appropriately done in adulthood as a conscious choice. The Anabaptists are an example of this.

Given that the child is seven (thanks for the article GK), I suspect that they are recent converts in some shape or form, or the church does not practice infant baptism.

I've never been baptized, either. My parents believed that should be a choice I made on my own when I was old enough to understand what religion is all about. Since I've never formally joined any chuch, I've never been baptized.

One of my nieces was formally baptized in the Methodist Church, even though her mother (at the time) was Wiccan (she's now an atheist) and her father is and was at the time a non-practicing Methodist. For him, the ceremony was about family traditions, which were and are very important to him. For her, it was about making her husband happy, which was and is very important to her.


I was never formally baptized either (from memory) although my family attended the local Uniting Church (in Australia, that's a mix of Presbyterian and Methodist and generally they're more family-focused) up until I was almost four. I did go to Sunday School whenever I slept over with my grandparents, which was thankfully not so much fire and brimstone, more "let's learn all the Biblical stories" (David and Goliath, Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel etc.)

There was a book that I'd picked up some time ago (and I have since gotten rid of) written by a Wiccan in Australia who was answering some questions from her teenage fans (not the ones who kept asking "how can I make X love me?" SERIOUS questions) and one of them was regarding a family who had recently joined a church, were baptized and the girl in question wanted to know how to incorporate some Wiccan traditions into the ceremony. She and her brother did a little ceremony after the baptism. :)

[Panacea]

My mom put up with it till I was about 5 when my grandparents traumatized me by sending me to confession. At which point she pulled me out of the RCC, forbid them from dragging me to church anymore and sent me to hippy Jesus sunday school. Hippy Jesus school involved a lot of colouring. It was a vast improvement.

My parents sent me to a Christian school for kindergarten because the public schools didn't offer it at the time (they started the year I started first grade, damn them!). I wasn't too happy there, got a lot of grief from the teachers because I hadn't had any religious education up to that point and didn't know the first thing about Jesus. Wheras some of my peers were already memorizing Bible verses (repeating what was read to them I guess, none of us could read yet).

We went to a Methodist church for awhile, but Dad pulled out because the minister was always hitting the congregation up for money, and was a real arm twister (he wanted to build a new sanctuary for the church and eventually did).

I remember when a school friend invited me to go to church with her and asked me what religion I was. "Christian" I replied.

Friend: But what religion
Me: Christian. :confused:
Friend: ...
Me: ...
Mom: Protestant.
Friend: Oh! We're Catholic. Can Pan still come?
Mom: Of course.

And that was my introduction to Catholicism and my first Mass :rolleyes:

Up until the age of 11 I had no idea there was more than one kind of Christian. It wasn't until a few years later that I learned was a Jew was. It wasn't until high school that I heard of Islam, Buddhism, and Wicca. I learned more about alternative religions doing research for role playing games than I ever did in school.

Objection. I think historical Jesus would be pretty chill with people merely listening to his wisdom, and his death and resurrection are iffy topics depending on the sect. They are not what I would refer to as required compliance for all of Christianity.

Also, I am leary of any proclaimation of required belief in order to be let into the tree house.

I beg your pardon. Yes, the whole death and resurrection thing came with Paul. It was the solution to the controversy over whether or not Gentiles had to conform to Jewish Law to be a Christian. Paul said all you had to do was believe in the Death and Resurrection. Christ himself only said that you had to go through Him to get to God.

[tropicsgoddess]

This is not something courts have any business in.

I agree. The religious upbringing of the child (or lack thereof in some cases) should be up to the parent(s) to decide, NOT the courts.

[Hyena Dandy]

I agree. The religious upbringing of the child (or lack thereof in some cases) should be up to the parent(s) to decide, NOT the courts.

Yes, but the thing is that the parents evidently can't agree, so the court decided to allow the child to choose.

Although I think the father is being petty (if there is no God,what does it matter if someone is baptized?) it's a reasonable decision if they have joint custody.

[HYHYBT]

Joint custody *would* make a difference. I wish the article bothered to say whether they had that or not.

Though for something like this, if the parents cannot agree, there's no harm in letting the child decide.

[crazylegs]

Joint custody *would* make a difference. I wish the article bothered to say whether they had that or not.

Why?

If the father only has minor visitation rights (maybe because of work commitments) then is his opinion any the less relevant? His rights to be a father are not diminished by the amount of court appointment time he is allowed to spend with the child.

Should I ever have children I will never force religion on my child I will leave it to them to decide once they're an adult.

[HYHYBT]

Why? Because that's what custody means. The parent with custody makes the decisions, regardless of visitation arrangements. Joint custody means they both do, which is a poor choice if they don't get along well enough to talk such things out between themselves instead of going to court over trivialities.