The Pledge of Alliegence

[Lace Neil Singer]

How to start this... well, I once read a fiction book that had a teacher being fired cuz she refused to say the pledge. It got me thinking about it, and whether or not there's anyone here who refuses to say it, for whatever reason.

I'm not American and also atheist, so if in an alternative world I was a transfer student, I wouldn't say it. I wouldn't try and disrupt those who were saying it, but what would be the point in saying a pledge to a god I don't believe in and a country that I don't belong to?

[Boozy]

I doubt there would be any ramifications for you as a transfer student if you chose not to recite the pledge. Perhaps a non-fictional teacher might face consequences, because their paycheck comes from the government. I don't know.

The pledge thing is kind of weird to me. Canadians don't get it. Maybe one of my American friends here could answer some of my questions:

What are you pledging allegiance to, exactly? The flag? Your country? That's either an inanimate object or a intangible concept. What are you agreeing to when you recite the pledge? Or is it just something you say because you always have? And if that's the case, why does anyone still bother with it? Do you feel something when you say the pledge?

[anriana]

The pledge thing is kind of weird to me. Canadians don't get it. Maybe one of my American friends here could answer some of my questions:

It's weird to some of us too. Way too cult-like.

What are your pledging allegiance to, exactly? The flag? Your country? That's either an inanimate object or a intangible concept. What are you agreeing to when you recite the pledge? Or is it just something you say because you always have? And if that's the case, why does anyone still bother with it? Do you feel something when you say the pledge?

I said it as a child when I didn't understand what it means; now I've stopped saying it. When I understood it and still said it for a few years, it was just because everyone else was, and all I felt was mildly annoyed at the religious part. Some people are very fervent about being patriotic and continuing our good ol' Christian traditions.

[Rapscallion]

There are two things I don't understand about the US pledge of alleigance.

Why is god in there at all? Separation of church and state and all that.

Why does it have to be re-affirmed very regularly? Wasn't the first time enough?

Rapscallion

[Norton]

As I've mentioned before, I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. JWs do not recite the Pledge, or salute the flag since it's a form of idolatry to pledge allegiance to an inanimate object. That, and patriotism is discouraged (JW's are supposed to be loyal to God and to eachother, and not their country).

Anyway, growing up in the public school system while not being allowed to recite the Pledge was awkward. Whenever I had a new teacher, I had to explain to them why I would not be reciting the Pledge, or even standing up as the others recited. Thankfully, the teachers never gave me a hard time about it - religious tolerance and all. The kids never really gave me a hard time eaither, aside from asking why I didn't stand up and say the Pledge.

The real problem was that kids would see me sitting silently during the Pledge, and would decide they didn't want to stand up or say it, either! Frankly, most school-age kids didn't give a rat's ass about the Pledge, and never really considered it's meaning. They saw it as a few boring minutes where no one was allowed to talk to their friends. Most would rather sit quietly than mindlessly recite their dedication to a piece of cloth.


As for the "Under God" bit, I agree with the people who want it taken out. America is not "one nation under God". First of all, many Americans are flat-out godless, while the rest serve various different gods. God does not unify this country. Even if I allowed myself to believe in a traditional God, I doubt he'd care more for America than any other country.

[Lachrymose]

Maybe one of my American friends here could answer some of my questions:

What are you pledging allegiance to, exactly? The flag? Your country? That's either an inanimate object or a intangible concept. What are you agreeing to when you recite the pledge? Or is it just something you say because you always have? And if that's the case, why does anyone still bother with it? Do you feel something when you say the pledge?

You're pledging allegiance to both: "I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands..etc."

You're agreeing to be loyal to your country, which in my opinion is kind of dumb.

And Raps, "under God" was added during the McCarthy era:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm

[Rapscallion]

Oh, him. Enough said, really.

Rapscallion

[Lachrymose]

Oh, him. Enough said, really.

Rapscallion

Sad isn't it? More sad that the SCOTUS has decided to leave it in.

[Slytovhand]

As Boozy said.. how can you have a flag as an ally?

And curious.. how do you people feel about flagburning? I know some have a massive issue with it - I just find it's either symbolic (by those who hate what it represents) or a bit amusing...


Slyt

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I have mixed feelings about it, and they mostly stem from the fact that I consider myself a Christian.

I will say the pledge in certain circumstances. I absolutely will not say it inside a church during a church service. Which is one reason I am not in Church approaching July 4th. Better to just avoid the whole uncomfortable mess. This year (yesterday) I was not in church Sunday morning, but nursing a hangover like a good American after a night of drunken Karaoke until 3am at a friend's house Saturday night.

I do consider myself a patriot. I think we live in a wonderful country, despite all our problems. While the pledge smacks a bit of idolatry to me, I will do it in certain circumstances. It's a nice sentiment, after all. There's nothing wrong with expressing national pride.

However, the whole thing of "he's not an American, cuz he won't say the pledge" is ridiculous. What's awesome about our flag is that it represents our right to pledge or not. Under our flag, we have the right to refuse. We have the right to speak out against our government. We have a right to choose what to believe.

Flag burners are just attention whores. Another great thing about our flag is that represents our right to...well burn our flag. Burning the flag is loathesome, and really says more about the burner than anything else. Still, once it's made illegal, then the act itself is somehow less loathesome, if that makes sense.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I'd burn it if I needed it to start a fire to save me from freezing to death, otherwise... it seems a bit pointless.

It's good to know that if I was ever in America, I wouldn't face loads of crap for refusing to say the pledge. XD

[BlaqueKatt]

personally I think one line says it all about America(not actually being a democracy)

"And to the REPUBLIC, for which it stands"

note it does not say democracy-it says republic which is defined by the new american heritage dictionary as:

republic

A form of government in which power is explicitly vested in the people, who in turn exercise their power through elected representatives. Today, the terms republic and democracy are virtually interchangeable, but historically the two differed. Democracy implied direct rule by the people, all of whom were equal, whereas republic implied a system of government in which the will of the people was mediated by representatives, who might be wiser and better educated than the average person. In the early American republic, for example, the requirement that voters own property and the establishment of institutions such as the Electoral College were intended to cushion the government from the direct expression of the popular will.

[Dark-Star]

BlaqueKatt, major kudos for knowing the difference. You would not believe how many people do not know that basic fact.

I swear, every time I hear that the US is a 'democracy' I want to scream. :mad: Our Founding Fathers recognized democracy for what it was - glorified mob rule and 51%-majority tyranny. That's why they gave us a representative republic.

But dollars to donuts you'll NEVER hear any of the talking heads on TV or radio say anything about this...

[AFPheonix]

It's easier and faster to say democracy than representative republic. And talking heads are not really well known for their insight into public policy and social events. They're too busy freaking out about terrorist fist-bumping.

The "under God" quote wasn't in the original pledge. Some dingleberries added it in 1951. I'd be fine with it getting taken out, too.

I'll be in the minority that I actually don't mind the thought behind the pledge. It's not really about pledging to the flag, it's about pledging to the ideals that were behind the founding of this country. Yes, our country can suck some serious balls on a lot of occasions, but there are underlying principles that are really good and decent, and those are the things that I think the pledge serves to remind us all whenever we recite it.

[crazylegs]

And curious.. how do you people feel about flagburning?

Burning the flag is loathesome, and really says more about the burner than anything else. Still, once it's made illegal, then the act itself is somehow less loathesome, if that makes sense.

Um, US codes of practice state that the method to destroy a flag (that is worn out) is to burn it, it is not to be discarded, buried or otherwise destroyed other than by burning.

Slightly ironic that all the people who burn flags in protest are actually discarding of them in the correct manner!

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, technically you are correct, but I think we all realize that there is a big difference between respectfully retiring a used flag and setting one on fire in front of a crowd of people to get attention.

[DesignFox]

I wouldn't mind that whole "under God" thing being removed...

I see no problem with the pledge of allegiance. I think it's a nice thing to have some pride in our country. Our country has it's problems, but on the whole I'm pretty happy to be a part of it.

I was always taught to respect our flag and all that it represents. To this day, that lesson sticks with me. I'm not a blind patriot, but I take pride in where I'm from. I can't imagine living in or being a citizen of any other country.

Of course, I also don't have a problem with someone choosing not to say the pledge, and while I don't like the attention mongers who burn flags for the shit of it, they are well within their rights to do so. That's part of what makes our country great.

[Dreamstalker]

I don't say it because as a whole it just doesn't make sense. Doesn't mean I'm any less "patriotic" (although I've been questioning the definition of such for a few years now) or "Godless" (ah, but which god?), just that I have my own reasons whatever they may be for not subscribing to it.

I also wondered about the daily reaffirmation in schools as well. It's like everyone had traitoristic (is that even a word?) leanings overnight or something and had to get rid of them.

[machinest]

I have always stressed that the pledge is about what the Country should be working toward not necessarily a celebration of where it is(12 years as a scoutmaster you need to think about these things). On the "under God" issue I find the subject of God to be the most divisive issue in the country today and as such it has no place in the pledge

[powerboy]

I see no problem with the pledge of allegiance. I think it's a nice thing to have some pride in our country. Our country has it's problems, but on the whole I'm pretty happy to be a part of it.

I was always taught to respect our flag and all that it represents. To this day, that lesson sticks with me. I'm not a blind patriot, but I take pride in where I'm from. I can't imagine living in or being a citizen of any other country.

Of course, I also don't have a problem with someone choosing not to say the pledge, and while I don't like the attention mongers who burn flags for the shit of it, they are well within their rights to do so. That's part of what makes our country great.

That is how I feel about it. I grew up with the part about "One Nation under God" & I like saying it, when I pledge the allegiance.

[the_std]

That is how I feel about it. I grew up with the part about "One Nation under God" & I like saying it, when I pledge the allegiance.

Keeping something because of habit is a very unconvincing argument.

[DesignFox]

Keeping something because of habit is a very unconvincing argument.

I think he was saying he agreed with my reasons for saying the pledge, but unlike me, liked keeping in the God part.

I'm not very religious, so I see no need to place God in the pledge to my country, especially since not all the people who live here worship God.