Booting out Illegal Aliens = many industries would fail?

[IDrinkaRum]

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/WhatIfWeThrewOutAllTheIllegalImmigrants.aspx

What is y'all's take on this article? Is it accurate? Do you agree Americans wouldn't move in and take over jobs vacated by illegal aliens?

[Dreamstalker]

I think they would, but it also seems that the root of the issue is: companies are cheap. Someone who knows what they're doing costs more...but shouldn't they ultimately cost less as there's less time lost in training?

A computer-related example:

Acme Computers has the option of hiring 20 support workers who only need to be able to follow a script and know when to escalate. Or 8 support workers who combined know how to fix pretty much every issue their users could face.

The 8 workers would cost more per employee and have longer per-call times, but would take pressure off the supervisors who would have time to deal with the truly dire problems. If a problem can be resolved in a single call, per-call-time should not be a factor.

With 20 workers, there's more manpower for the same amount of money, but those 20 workers run the risk of pissing off supers by escalating every. little. thing.

I don't take much stock in what the Heritage Foundation says: according to my dad their legitimacy doesn't make them right.

[protege]

Those 20 workers also have the ability to piss off the customers as well. Sorry, but if I'm being given the run-around, or I run into several people who don't know what they're doing, they've lost me as a customer. I have better things to do than waste time on hold because someone decided to save money by hiring people who don't know what they're doing.

With that said, I'm all for paying a bit more when it comes to service. I'd rather pay someone more who knows what they're doing...instead of paying little, and then having to repeat the job multiple times!

[Greenday]

Did I read that right? The most missed job will be maids? Oh noez! We won't have anyone to clean our own messes up for us!

[Boozy]

We don't really have to play the "What if?" game, because we've already seen the effect of more stringent immigration enforcement to some extent.

Crops rot in the fields. It's happened in Oregon, Washington, and parts of California.

Ontario (Canada) is also struggling, as migrant workers are no longer able to pass the border to pick our fruit crops.

I'm not coming down on any one side of the illegal immigration issue, but from an economics standpoint at least, the question is "Okay, we prevent all the illegal immigrants from crossing the border....now what?" We need a more comprehensive solution to this problem. A big fence is laughably shortsighted. The US economy is based on equal parts cheap labour and cheap imports. Now what?

[tropicsgoddess]

Illegal immigrants are not the only ones that work in the industries they are known to work for. You do have the recently arrived legal immigrants that work in those types of jobs as well since they might the qualifications (degree,license,etc.) to have the same job they did in their native country (i.e. teacher). Besides that, you have the lower skilled Americans and the younger generations (teens and 20 somethings) who would take those jobs. I don't think I'd really see those industries they spoke of in the article going down in flames, but what is highly possible is that the wages would go up.

[Dreamstalker]

Those 20 workers also have the ability to piss off the customers as well. Sorry, but if I'm being given the run-around, or I run into several people who don't know what they're doing, they've lost me as a customer.
Hell yeah. Unfortunately all corps seem to care about is call times, and have no idea how many customers are lost because of their money-saving measures.

My dad called his ISP exactly twice in my memory. Both times, the "answers" were so incredibly off-the-mark (one claim for an email authentication server denying a connection was "because you're using a Mozilla product which we don't support, uninstall that and it should work" [hi, it's worked fine until today and nothing has been changed on our end]...the actual problem was a server failure on their end that was fixed the next day) that he now calls me for advice. When the customer knows more than the workers hired to help the customer...there's something really wrong.

The new Click & Clack animated show on PBS had an episode tonight about outsourcing which seemed to hit the mark...in the short run it looks good with numbers, but ultimately it can go very, very wrong. All anyone cares about anymore is the short (very short)-term gains in money saved. I'm betting if that was balanced against customers, time, and money lost through incompetence things would change very quickly.

(if only freelance references were followed up on...there are dozens of people I do work for who say I'm worth every penny they pay me and then some)

[lordlundar]

Would it destroy those companies? Yes, but to say it's a bad thing is something I don't agree to. The companies which employ these illegal aliens do so because they pay them and treat them as poorly as the law will allow (and in some cases, even less) and seeing these companies go down would send a message to other companies.

Of course, that message is that it's better to spend more and have quality staff that they can keep than to spend less and lose money from incapable staff with lousy training who are going to be yanked away.

[AFPheonix]

We don't really have to play the "What if?" game, because we've already seen the effect of more stringent immigration enforcement to some extent.

Crops rot in the fields. It's happened in Oregon, Washington, and parts of California.

Ontario (Canada) is also struggling, as migrant workers are no longer able to pass the border to pick our fruit crops.

I'm not coming down on any one side of the illegal immigration issue, but from an economics standpoint at least, the question is "Okay, we prevent all the illegal immigrants from crossing the border....now what?" We need a more comprehensive solution to this problem. A big fence is laughably shortsighted. The US economy is based on equal parts cheap labour and cheap imports. Now what?

Exactly. However, the position we are in now where we have to rely on these workers to pick our produce and do other menial jobs that no one else will (they can't even get school kids to pick strawberries anymore) is untenable. It's not fair to the workers, either. They frankly deserve better than they're getting between xenophobia here, health issues from the line of work they're doing, and constant fear of getting deported back to countries that are frankly broken.
What can we as the US do? Well, we can support better legislation that doesn't undercut farmers down south like the farm bill does currently, we can innovate better farm machinery that does the same job as migrant workers. Etc etc etc. It's just going to be one of those things that in between the situation we have now and a decent fix, things are going to suck. So until it gets too expensive to maintain the status quo we have now, we will continue to have an influx of immigrants and farmers who don't benefit from the farm bill taking advantage of cheap and plentiful labor.

[Rapscallion]

I don't think the US economy would collapse, but it would be a shock. There are jobs that need doing, but the companies doing them would have to pay more to attract legal workers and thus pass their costs on.

What baffles me, when I think about it and the figures in that article, is that the country has a semi-toleration of illegal workers, yet has many more unemployed than that who are - to a certain extent - not willing to do the work. That pretty much translates to, "I was born in this country, so I should be paid more than someone who came over the border illegally, so I'm not willing to work on the jobs I can get an income for, and thus the illegal aliens are doing it and willing to do so. Hell, no, I'd prefer to claim welfare."

Pride will get you only so far. Pride and a dollar will get you a small burger. Laziness will, apparently, get you a living.

Not all people on unemployment/welfare are lazy or too proud, but there are (if the US is anything like the UK) a fair number of people who just want to claim money off the state and not seek work. If someone's genuinely seeking work then fair play to them.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

Pride will get you only so far. Pride and a dollar will get you a small burger. Laziness will, apparently, get you a living.

Someone should steal that for a signature.

[Dreamstalker]

The companies which employ these illegal aliens do so because they pay them and treat them as poorly as the law will allow (and in some cases, even less) and seeing these companies go down would send a message to other companies.
Exactly. Companies get away with paying peanuts and treating workers like dirt because at the present time, they can. More pay and better treatment if that's what's needed to get workers won't necessarily mean CEOs lose their zillion-dollar bonuses, just that they get a few less zeros tacked on (not like they'll miss it).

[DesignFox]

The problem with the welfare vs. work issue, too is that some of those jobs pay JUST enough to keep you off the poverty line, but not enough that a person can subsist off of welfare or qualify for state assistant medical insurance. I'm sure those big wigs aren't providing their workers with health insurance...which is also part of the allure to hiring illegals.

[Boozy]

I'm sure those big wigs aren't providing their workers with health insurance...which is also part of the allure to hiring illegals.

What's that? Yet another reason to consider state-provided universal health care?

(I'm notorious for de-railing threads. Y'all feel free to smack me.)

[powerboy]

I am tired of Illegals saying that American will not work in the fields. Not all of them will. But there is a lot that will.

It is sad, that alot of people are unemployed because of the illegals. Yes, because of the illegals. They come over and take every job. They use someone else identity and make this money. Do they pay taxes, no. We have to make up for it.

Business's would not fail, if they booted out illegals. That is a bunch of bullshit. The companies would have more loyal customers. As what was mentioned before, if a customer keeps getting the run around - then lost a customer. Multiply that buy thousands or even millions. That is a lot of money that is not coming in, and all because the company wanted to get rich in the short run.

[AFPheonix]

Not enough will work that produce will get picked in time. Sorry, but it's the truth. Hood River, OR had that very problem when INS went to town on their immigrant population. The orchard farmers there couldn't get anyone to come help pick, so a lot of fruit got wasted.

It's the same story over and over again in many businesses: owners put out ads for boring, repetitive and dirty jobs, they can't get enough workers to come and stay for any length of time, so they resort to immigrants.

My argument is that those types of jobs need to be automated, frankly.

[daleduke17]

Get rid of the illegal immigrants, start putting welfaries to work in their place. Want welfare? Get out in the fields and start picking crops, go to the high rise and start cleaning it. Do SOMETHING to earn your way. No work? No welfare.

And, Boozy, no, it is NOT another reason for the government to provide healthcare.

[DesignFox]

Well, even if it is an excuse for the government to provide healthcare, I really don't want it going to people who are here illegally. F that.

[the_std]

What I think Boozy was trying to say is that, if the States adopts universal health care, companies don't have to worry about paying for their employees' health care plans and can therefore put more money towards wages, attracting more legal workers to the jobs that are filled by illegal immigrants.

[Boozy]

Actually, my point was based on something DesignFox already said. I'll quote again:

I'm sure those big wigs aren't providing their workers with health insurance...which is also part of the allure to hiring illegals.

Legal citizens of the US working full-time expect health insurance provided by their companies. If the government provided health care, there would be less of a cost-saving advantage in hiring undocumented workers.

[DesignFox]

Not enough people in the states will support government funded health-care. Actually, in talking to a lot of people in my own personal circle, they fear it would lower the quality of care (in addition to raising taxes).

Anyway, you might be right Boozy. If the companies didn't have to pay out for health insurance, they might be less inclined to have to search out illegal help.

The problem with hiring Americans is that they NEED healthcare and the only way to get it is through the employers. Otherwise it is OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive, and without it, god forbid you get sick or injured, you'll go bankrupt trying to pay the hospital bills.

Nobody can win.

[blas87]

Illegal immigrants are doing the hard work that people who have been sucking welfare for generations refuse to do, because they prefer never having to get off the couch.

I definetly do not condone people sneaking into this country and all that comes with it, but it's just pure simple fact. They will do ANYTHING for money, things that people here are too lazy to do.

[Rapscallion]

I am tired of Illegals saying that American will not work in the fields. Not all of them will. But there is a lot that will.


I don't think the illegals are saying that. They're more approaching people who can have a reasonable expectation of hiding the workers from the law and getting work that will get them more money than back home.

As a native of my country, I'm saying that there are plenty of 'my' people who won't work in the fields. I don't blame them - the work is hard, back-breaking, seasonal, and I can get much more money working elsewhere.


It is sad, that alot of people are unemployed because of the illegals. Yes, because of the illegals. They come over and take every job. They use someone else identity and make this money. Do they pay taxes, no. We have to make up for it.


Take every job? Your countryfolk, and mine, don't want to do that work. I don't want to clean toilets, break my back in a field, or hunch over a production line. It's got a far lower rate of pay than what I earn doing other things, and that's because our compatriots don't want to pay a reasonable price for their food and goods. The illegals are actually subsidising the US and UK economy and higher standard of living through their cheap labour.

Business's would not fail, if they booted out illegals. That is a bunch of bullshit. The companies would have more loyal customers.

That last sentence in the quote made me chuckle. The Western economy is driven by people who want things cheaper. Look at advertising around you - only the rich are pandered to by adverts saying that something was made in this country/is reassuringly expensive. Everyone else - including me - is on the lookout for deals to save a reasonable amount of money.

Joe punter doesn't really want to pay more for the privelege of goods that are made by fellow countrymen. If it's sold by a fellow countryman, that's enough. Not enough people have enough social awareness to make your ideal work, or they just don't care. My company supplies a fair amount of fair trade goods - better prices for the third world. People buy it for two reasons - the first is that they truly believe, and these are the people who will donate their time to work in fair trade shops. The second are the ones buying it for status - they want to be seen, just like the big car in the driveway.

Ideals are great if you can afford them.


As what was mentioned before, if a customer keeps getting the run around - then lost a customer. Multiply that buy thousands or even millions. That is a lot of money that is not coming in, and all because the company wanted to get rich in the short run.

It's not the short run, though - it's been going on for years. As long as someone can say or think, "I bought these goods from a company that is run by those in my country, I'm patriotic," then it will continue. If I go to a store and want to buy food, I don't know who picked it in the fields, or who made the washing machine I'm considering buying. Most people who go to stores will just look for a cheaper price - ever seen the videos of the Black Friday stampedes as people go for deals? Hilarious, save for the lack of control on view.

If people really gave a shit, they'd try to sort out the problems in the other country that provided all the cheap labour so those countries would be able to give a similar standard of living.

As to the welfairies doing the jobs in another post, great idea! Three days a week of work, two days a week to search for something else. Bloody good incentive. Would need more refinement than that, but it would be a start.

Of course, there would be a huge surge in claims for disability...

Rapscallion

[AFPheonix]

Not enough people in the states will support government funded health-care. Actually, in talking to a lot of people in my own personal circle, they fear it would lower the quality of care (in addition to raising taxes).


Then those people haven't bothered to do the research on it. Every indicator says that we in the US are paying out MORE for healthcare costs and are getting less for our money and are scoring lower on key health indicators than countries with universal care. But then I can't say that I'm too surprised by that, most of my customers are mystified by their private plans and all their intricacies.


As to the welfairies doing the jobs in another post, great idea! Three days a week of work, two days a week to search for something else. Bloody good incentive. Would need more refinement than that, but it would be a start.

Of course, there would be a huge surge in claims for disability...

Rapscallion
Tell me about it. My moron BIL got to hang out with me for a week after he got out of detox. He was whining about the work he got to help me with. I guess being drunk out of your brain and being eyeballs deep in debt is easier than stacking 35 some-odd tons of hay.
They were light bales, too! Weenie.

[lordlundar]

Then those people haven't bothered to do the research on it. Every indicator says that we in the US are paying out MORE for healthcare costs and are getting less for our money and are scoring lower on key health indicators than countries with universal care. But then I can't say that I'm too surprised by that, most of my customers are mystified by their private plans and all their intricacies.

The main reason they are so afraid of it is because they see it as the first step in socialism and communism, <sarcasm> and we all know socialism and communism are mortal sins. </sarcasm>

[Greenday]

If people really gave a shit

Holy cow, did Raps just curse on the boards?

I'm always still split on this. On one hand, work is getting done. There are a lot of people who think the work a lot of illegal immigrants are doing is beneath them.

On the other hand, a lot of the illegal immigrants are making money, then sending it back across the border, effectively hurting the US economy. A lot are also demanding the same rights as US citizens, and I just can't agree with that. You came over the border, breaking our laws, yet you want the same laws we have for protection? I think not.

[Rapscallion]

Holy cow, did Raps just curse on the boards?

Don't get used to it :P Mind you, after today I'm not in a good mood.

I'm always still split on this. On one hand, work is getting done. There are a lot of people who think the work a lot of illegal immigrants are doing is beneath them.

Either beneath them or not worth the pitifully small wage paid for the arduous task at hand. Picking fruit is not good on your body, generally speaking, especially the ground-dwelling stuff. In the meantime, the work is getting done cheaply, and that keeps the costs in the stores down.

On the other hand, a lot of the illegal immigrants are making money, then sending it back across the border, effectively hurting the US economy. A lot are also demanding the same rights as US citizens, and I just can't agree with that. You came over the border, breaking our laws, yet you want the same laws we have for protection? I think not.

They're still keeping the costs down for legal US citizens, thus stimulating the US economy. If the money going back home is sufficient, their children may be able to afford better schooling and a better future, and not have to hop over the border for work. Just hypothesising, here, but would a better use for the money once thought about for that big wall on the Mexican border be better spent improving the lot of the poor in Mexico? Would probably prevent more illegals coming over.

Breaking the US laws - only the immigration laws. The US businessmen/farmers employing them are also breaking laws (employment in their case), so it's not a one-way street. Demanding rights? I have to agree there - that's a bit rich to demand the same treatment when you know you're breaking the law.

I'm not particularly in favour of migrant/illegal workers, but I can see it from a few angles. What I am in favour of is people realising that they sometimes need to do the shitty work, and that people need to expect to pay more for their goods as a result.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

They're still keeping the costs down for legal US citizens, thus stimulating the US economy. If the money going back home is sufficient, their children may be able to afford better schooling and a better future, and not have to hop over the border for work. Just hypothesising, here, but would a better use for the money once thought about for that big wall on the Mexican border be better spent improving the lot of the poor in Mexico? Would probably prevent more illegals coming over.

Many Americans erroneously believe that they live in a vacuum and the rest of the world's problems don't affect them. Closed borders and protectionist economic policies don't work for any country, let alone one whose way of life is based on Mexican labour, Canadian and Saudi Arabian oil, and Chinese loans.

[Slytovhand]

What's that? Yet another reason to consider state-provided universal health care?

(I'm notorious for de-railing threads. Y'all feel free to smack me.)

/smacks Boozy :D

The main reason that this problem has arised is quite simply lifestyle. Not too many Americans actually grew up needing to work hard or shitty jobs. They didn't need to scratch and scrap merely to survive. Most (if not all) illegal immigrants (certainly the one's pertaining to this issue) have had to do that. They haven't been able to eat for days at a time. So - over there in the US, doing a few hours of manual labour and getting paid.. what.. $6/hr for it is a massive amount of money to them. And realistically, what they have to do for that money is either about the same as what they were doing before (certainly no worse), or is so much easier (say for factory work).

Born and bred USA-ans have been brought up on TV, cars, fast food and sodas.. and being lazy and getting away with having to do squat. (and sometimes snowflake syndrome :p)

As for the 'short term/long term' issue.. in business, there is no 'long term'... there's just 'keep on going' terms...Businesses come, businesses go... what's the stats over there on a new business? Over here, most don't make it past the first year. Most don't make actual profit within 5 years.

As Lordlundar has it - Universal health care would look way too much like socialism... too bad the US govt doesn't bother to look at other countries to see how they manage it!! (We've had it for decades now, and so has NZ, UK, Sweden, and others I couldn't be bothered to google for :p)