apparently to some people being raped is a sin

[BlaqueKatt]

horrifying story here (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/interview-mom-says-no-to-plan-b-after-her-disabled-daughter-is-raped)

A mentally disabled girl was brutally raped and her mother refused plan b, because in her words "What child deserves to die due to a parent’s sins and brutality?" So she believes her daughter being raped was her daughter's sin. She does not deserve to be a mother. Especially after telling her daughter that plan b causes an abortion(most zygotes don't implant anyway, is menstruating abortion?). I'm just sick and disgusted by this.

What really gets me is the comments, telling the mother how strong she's being when "her faith is being tested", NO she's not risking anything, she's risking her daughter, and lying to her to push her f'ed up morality on someone who can't really comprehend what's happening.

[Kheldarson]

I think the "sins and brutality" bit was about the rapists, not the daughter. So the baby shouldn't be punished because dad's evil, not mom.

And the daughter operates on an 8-10 year old level. I don't think she could fully comprehend the full impact of taking the drug anyway. Which is why it's mom's decision.

As for birth control as causing an abortion, that depends on how you define start of life. For most Christians, life starts at conception (egg and sperm combine) so to prevent its implantation through birth control is the same as going in for an abortion.

Now, I will say that even as a pro-lifer myself, I'm not sure I quite agree with mom's decision simply because I think she should have had a full discussion with her daughter. But maybe she did and she's just summarizing. But based on the quote, I don't really like the tone. However, mom has guardianship, I'm sure, so ultimately, it is her decision, not her daughter's.

[BlaqueKatt]

As for birth control as causing an abortion, that depends on how you define start of life. For most Christians, life starts at conception (egg and sperm combine) so to prevent its implantation through birth control is the same as going in for an abortion.

as stated above 60-80% of fertilized eggs (http://discovermagazine.com/2004/may/cover/article_view?b_start:int=2&-C)(zygotes), fail to implant in a normal, healthy female that is not on any form of birth control, so if plan b is an abortion so is menstruation.

also abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, which begins after implantation(6-8 days after fertilization), if the zygote doesn't implant there is no pregnancy to terminate, so it can't possibly an abortion.

[smileyeagle1021]

I think the "sins and brutality" bit was about the rapists, not the daughter. So the baby shouldn't be punished because dad's evil, not mom.



Which then comes down to, someone has to lose, now the woman who was raped is going to be punished for being raped (or at least potentially so, I know women who have carried a child from a rape to term and have raised that child and love them dearly and are grateful they didn't abort, so it's not a guarantee this will be a punishment).
So, we now are balancing plan b, which turns something that, as blaquekatt has pointed out, has 60-80% of happening anyway into something that is more like upper 90's% chance of happening, against forcing a woman to have a child against her will.
That changes the equation greatly.

[bara]

This is messed up.

My aunt is mentally handicapped. She is beyond the age where pregnancy can occur, but I couldn't imagine her being able to withstand the stress involved with carrying a child to term.
When she was little my grandparents took her out of school so that they knew she would never get pregnant. This was in the 50s-60s and many of the mentally handicapped girls were getting pregnant generally on their way to or from school from what I've been told.

The girls mother in the article is not a paragon of faith as many of the commentators there state. She is an idiot with less business raising a child than her daughter is.
I'm not trying to be insulting. I truly believe she fits the definition of the term.

[tropicsgoddess]

That is just fucked up. Bad enough the daughter was raped, traumatized over it and is mentally disabled but worse is how her idiot "mother" is forcing her to keep the pregnancy to term! That's just fucking disgusting! :burnup: I honestly don't see how the hell these religious and pro-life nutbags think that rape is a sin for one and two plan B pills being an abortion pill. Plan B just PREVENTS the egg from being fertilized by the sperm and implanting to the womb...RU 486 TERMINATES the pregnancy that already occurred. Huge fucking difference.

[HYHYBT]

I honestly don't see how the hell these religious and pro-life nutbags think that rape is a sin...Surely, by any reasonable definition of "sin," rape would qualify? I can think of very few things that could be more blatant.

[Andara Bledin]

Surely, by any reasonable definition of "sin," rape would qualify? I can think of very few things that could be more blatant.
I think it's fairly obvious from context that she mis-spoke and meant "being raped" not "raping" is not a sin.

^-.-^

[Kheldarson]

That changes the equation greatly.

Not really. What the mother in the article is measuring is the the potential child's life vs. her daughter's vs. the guy who did it. Her point is that her daughter can run the risk and allow this child to have a life, if it implants, despite the fact the father is a douche.

It's called leaving it to God's will, and that does take a measure of faith. Now, assuredly, I don't know how being raped is a good thing, but I don't think a child from rape necessarily needs to be punished because they're from rape.

[Rebel]

The mentally disabled girl is being dehumanized by her mother.
Simple as that.

A horrible thing has happened to her child, she was attacked and raped.
There's a possibility that she could now be pregnant.
Right now, the mother cares more about the possibly fertilized single celled zygote than she does about her own daughter.
Her daughter has now been reduced to being an incubator.

I hate this world sometimes.

[Andara Bledin]

The mentally disabled girl is being dehumanized by her mother.
Simple as that.
This. This is what every pro-life person who wants to force a woman to carry to term does. They dehumanize the thinking, breathing woman involved over a potential person. It's disturbing.

[mooncat]

A zygote is not a child.

If you're going to talk about "life" consider this: An ovum is alive. A sperm cell is alive. Every month, every woman of childbearing age who does not conceive has a "life" in the form of an ovum go down the drain. Every time a man has an orgasm, millions of sperm shoot out and also die, if they are not the "lucky" one who implants an egg. Life is profligate. It is abundant. We have "gone forth and multiplied" without regard to the consequences of other life on this planet, to the point that some places on this earth are in dire straits because of overpopulation. I can't speak for God or Goddess (and neither can anyone else), but I have to at least suspect that any divine power did not intend for children to be born only to die of starvation a few months later. Or to be beaten to death by parents who are not emotionally stable. Or any of the other things that happen to unwanted children. And the stance that "we don't know God's plan" is a cop-out, not an explanation. And God gave us brains and free will, so we don't ever HAVE to bear a child that we cannot love or care for.

Unfortunately, this girl's choices have been taken away from her, first by the rapist (scum of the earth) and now by her mother.

[AdminAssistant]

If she has the mental capacity of an 8-10 year old, will she be able to understand what's happening to her body? The morning sickness, the tenderness, the swelling? Not to mention the pain of labor and childbirth.

I hate hearing about "God's will" in these cases. If there is a God and it's his will that a mentally-handicapped girl would be raped and then forced to carry the baby, then God can go fuck himself with a rusty screwdriver.

[blas87]

I've heard the "why punish the child" reasoning behind a lot of women keeping their babies that are a result of rape.

And ya know, if they aren't mentally handicapped and are able to handle something of that magnitude, good on them.

This woman probably has no idea what happened to her, much less what will be happening to her in the coming months. I don't think it's right at all to force someone who isn't even mentally "all there" to have a child.

This just burns my butt.

[Andara Bledin]

Speaking of this matter with a friend, it occurred to me that perhaps the mother is ashamed that her daughter is not a fully functioning individual and might be angling for the grandchild in the hopes that she will have the opportunity to raise a normal child to make up for the daughter.

This is, of course, all complete speculation, but I've known people who would do such a thing.

^-.-^

[Ginger Tea]

It occurred to me that perhaps the mother is ashamed that her daughter is not a fully functioning individual and might be angling for the grandchild in the hopes that she will have the opportunity to raise a normal child to make up for the daughter.


I was going to post something like this last night, but I was too tired to really see my keyboard.

"I will raise my grandchild as my own and raise him/her like the child I never had."

And I do hope that "being raped is a sin" was something miss comunicated along the way

[BlaqueKatt]

t perhaps the mother is ashamed that her daughter is not a fully functioning individual and might be angling for the grandchild in the hopes that she will have the opportunity to raise a normal child to make up for the daughter.



"I will raise my grandchild as my own and raise him/her like the child I never had."

I'm leaning more toward mother theresa line of thought "suffering is a gift from god" martyrism as according to the article it's her adopted daughter, one of 5 special needs children she's adopted. In other words she specifically adopted the girl because she wasn't "normal"

[Sarah Valentine]

I'm thinking the same thing as Andrea and Ginger, that this "woman" sees this as an oppertunity for the child she feels she should've had. This bitch has NO buisines being a parent.

[Nyoibo]

Not really. What the mother in the article is measuring is the the potential child's life vs. her daughter's vs. the guy who did it. Her point is that her daughter can run the risk and allow this child to have a life, if it implants, despite the fact the father is a douche.

Following this type of reasoning then you must be against all forms of birth control?

[blas87]

A line of thinking does not always mean that's what the person behind the computer believes.

Believe me, I am trying to find some way that this....stupid bitch for lack of a better word, could justify this. I am trying to NOT rage porn here. Doesn't mean I believe in what she's doing.

[Ginger Tea]

I had not read the article at the time of posting (nor have I yet), so I did not know that the child (I have no idea on here age, she could be 30 without reading the link) was adopted, so the Mother probably knew she had a dissability from the get go.

But if she wasn't adopted then I stand by my initial post.

[Kheldarson]

Following this type of reasoning then you must be against all forms of birth control?

Pretty much. That's not to say I'm against using hormones if you have a separate medical condition, but I don't support birth control simply so you can avoid responsibilities. Don't want to have kids? Don't have sex.

As for rape cases, I still lean more towards the same answer, but realize it's a different situation and far more emotionally traumatic in general.

[AdminAssistant]

Don't want to have kids? Don't have sex.

*blink* *blink*

I would really hate to live in your world.

[Andara Bledin]

I would really hate to live in your world.
I'm just glad that the prevailing sentiment in the majority of modern civilization is that birth control is a good thing.

Besides, using birth control is being responsible.

^-.-^

[Kheldarson]

You mean the world where my husband and I waited five years to get married before having sex for the first time?

The world where we pay attention to what my body's doing to figure out the least likely time for me to be able to get pregnant so we can enjoy ourselves, yet still understand that there may be consequences for our decision? And we are willing to take that responsibility, which is why we got married in the first place.

Part of my issue with birth control is that it's used a lot to remove personal responsibility. And that's stupid.

[the_std]

Part of my issue with birth control is that it's used a lot to remove personal responsibility. And that's stupid.

How about exercising personal responsibility with birth control? Knowing that I would A) make a terrible mother and B) getting pregnant would likely kill me, I choose to use birth control because I like sex, and my boyfriend likes sex, and neither of us would be happy in a relationship where we weren't having sex. Yet our relationship is perfect for us, and I fully plan on being with him for the rest of my life.

So my using birth control to prevent unwanted children and serious medical complications and allow me to continue to enjoy the most fulfilling part of my life is... Stupid? I can't say I understand that logic at all.

And we are willing to take that responsibility, which is why we got married in the first place.

Okay, You guys got married in the first place to be together under the understanding that there would be no birth control used and that any children resulting from your sexual activities would be embraced and accepted. Great. But why should other people have to follow your lifestyle choice? What is it about your choice that is so great that it should be applied to the rest of the world? A world currently facing massive overpopulation?

[AdminAssistant]

You mean the world where my husband and I waited five years to get married before having sex for the first time?

Yep. I prefer my world where I know that my Fiance and I are sexually compatible, where we can have that intimacy, and where, most importantly, we can fulfill our sexual desires without having a child that we can't afford. My only complaint is that I can no longer take hormonal birth control. The IUD is more reliable, but I hate having week-long super painful periods that I can't predict.

Considering the fact that less than 3% of people wait until marriage to have sex, and considering our planet's overpopulation, the strain on resources, our nation's debt...preventing the birth of children is actually a very responsible act.

I don't understand people who are pro-life but oppose birth control. The best way to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies is to improve access to birth control, because people are not going to stop having sex. I would say that's a Puritannical way of thinking, but I'm pretty sure even the Puritans were getting it on on a pretty regular basis.

ETA:

So my using birth control to prevent unwanted children and serious medical complications and allow me to continue to enjoy the most fulfilling part of my life is... Stupid? I can't say I understand that logic at all.

Oh, std, don't you know? It's obviously God's Plan (tm) for you to die in painful childbirth! Isn't that wonderful! :rolleyes:

[Sleepwalker]

Not wearing a seatbelt and accepting head trauma and death in case of an accident is the only responsible thing to do. Ride in a car and be prepared to accept the consequences.

[Rebel]

Hopping into water could possibly lead to drowning.
To avoid drowning you must completely avoid water.
Sure, I could teach you about the dangers and how to be safe, but I think swimming is wrong so I'm not going to.
Sure, you could try using a boat, but who knows if that's going to suddenly spring a leak and sink?
And if you do find yourself drowning because you haven't taken my advise? Well, you got yourself into that position and now you have to just deal with the consequences.

[KabeRinnaul]

I like the part where everyone assumes we think our personal decision about our own relationship and sexuality should be enforced for everyone else.

[the_std]

You know what, Kabe? If someone is going to out and out call a decision I make that has no effect or bearing on anyone's wellbeing but myself "stupid", then I'm going to question that. I might not have been correct assuming you want to apply it to other people, but I still have a problem with people having this mentality since it's this kind of thinking that stops us from solving underdeveloped countries whose populations are so out of control that they are having problems sustaining the food levels to support their populace.

[BlaqueKatt]

Don't want to have kids? Don't have sex.

and considering only women get pregnant......men can and do just walk away, even married ones...that's about the most hardcore misogynistic thing I've ever read on fratching.

Personally I think making the decision to be responsible, use science and birth control is taking personal responsibility.


My son was born with severe autism, any children I may have had after that had a 25% chance of also having autism, I went on birth control to prevent having another child who will never be a functioning member of society, I have since had my tubes tied, but using your standards I should've ceased having sex with my husband if I didn't want another unhealthy child. That's not even logical, or feasible. I think putting the health of any potential children above my own desire for more children is taking personal responsibility.

Women should not be punished for wanting to have sex without bearing children. What about married women who are told another pregnancy would likely kill them? Are they supposed to just tell their husband, sorry you can never touch me again, or just commit suicide by baby?

[Glados]

A healthy sex life is often a major factor in whether or not a marriage is successful. If married couples did not have sex in order to not have children it would most likely lead to more divorces. The divorce rate in America is already too high.

For people like me the method of timing the sex in the cycle is not an option. My cycle is never regular and, therefore, predicting ovulation can be very difficult and an accident is very likely.

[jackfaire]

but I'm pretty sure even the Puritans were getting it on on a pretty regular basis.


*wicked grin* Yup otherwise I wouldn't be here.

[Racket_Man]

Women should not be punished for wanting to have sex without bearing children. What about married women who are told another pregnancy would likely kill them? Are they supposed to just tell their husband, sorry you can never touch me again, or just commit suicide by baby?


THIS ^^^^^ RIGHT HERE.. My Ex had a VERY complicated and dangerous pregnancy with our daughter. Her labor was hell on earth also. without going into too much detail - little or no dilation, given lots of meds, emergancy C-section, technically dead for 5 minutes, not sure if she (Ex) was going to even make it.

Then after daughter was born, more physical problems in the abdominal area leading the Dr.s to conclude that another preganancy WOULD kill her (Ex). we decided the only recouse was to have her tubes tied and burned shut (YES burned).

I guess that the marriage should have ended about 17 years earlier than it did??? OR maybe I should have let the Dr. just let her (Ex) die right after giving birth?????

[tropicsgoddess]

I think it's fairly obvious from context that she mis-spoke and meant "being raped" not "raping" is not a sin.

^-.-^

You have it right...meant to put in how I didn't understand how the religious nutbags think being raped is a sin. I think raping somebody is a sin.

[blas87]

Wow. Gone for a day and the shit hits the fan.

We're really, really going to go there with birth control?

Personal responsibility? You really want to preach about that?

Don't want kids, don't have sex, you preach? Ok. Then if I don't want to risk a car accident, I shouldn't drive a car. Then I'd lose my job.

Birth control removing personal responsibility. Ohhhh my lordy, that's the funniest thing I've heard in ages.

That's admirable and even great, to hear that some people still wait to have sex. Seriously, I have respect for that. I do. But don't lash out or judge others for their decision.

The people who are most against birth control are also usually the most against any form of help for people who can't afford to take care of their kids. So go figure.

I say, ANY woman (and hopefully someday, men as well) who wants to prevent pregnancy, go to your doc and find what's right for you. And do it. Take responsibility and control of your body.

THAT is responsibility in itself. And it's a shame others just fail to realize it.

[SkullKing]

Part of my issue with birth control is that it's used a lot to remove personal responsibility. And that's stupid.

Could you please, explain this to me?

I do not understand how using birth control removes responsibility. After all you are making sure what you do does not have undesirable consequences.

To me that is taking responsibility, not avoiding it.

I honestly do not understand your point.

[Boozy]

I do not understand how using birth control removes responsibility.

I suspect Kheldarson meant 'removes consequences" instead of "responsiblity". However, using birth control removes the same consequences (pregnancy), so there's something else being said here.

When I hear "responsibility" in certain contexts while discussing sex and sexuality, what I really hear is "punishment".

And why should there be punishment for having sex? Because some people consider it to be wrong and dirty outside of marriage and naturally, people who do wrong and dirty things need to be punished.

That's a moral (and sometimes religious) argument that really has no basis in fact. It's just how some people feel about sex.

Personally, I don't feel that thinking about sex that way is healthy, and I treat sex the same way as any other moderately risky behaviour, like driving a car. Using birth control mitigates the risk of unwanted consequences, sort of like buying snow tires.

[Hyena Dandy]

Part of my issue with birth control is that it's used a lot to remove personal responsibility. And that's stupid.


Birth control doesn't REMOVE responsibility, it IS responsibility.

It removes consequences. Just like a condom removes the same consequences (of pregnancy).

Responsibility is about taking steps to avoid consequences.

[jackfaire]

Responsibility is about taking steps to avoid consequences.

Which is why no one would suggest that jumping out of an airplane without a parachute is the responsible thing to do.

[Nyoibo]

Which is why no one would suggest that jumping out of an airplane without a parachute is the responsible thing to do.

I don't know, there are a few people on the planet that it would be the responsible course of action for.

[Ginger Tea]

For that we have very tall buildings.

Get them into basejumping and fill thier chute with frilly underwear.

[HYHYBT]

I can think of other reasons jumping out of a plane without a parachute would be a responsible thing to do. I did it myself just the other day. Of course, the plane was on the ground and stationary at the time :)

[Rageaholic]

I hate hearing about "God's will" in these cases. If there is a God and it's his will that a mentally-handicapped girl would be raped and then forced to carry the baby, then God can go fuck himself with a rusty screwdriver.

*claps*

Couldn't have said it better.

[Hyena Dandy]

Which is why no one would suggest that jumping out of an airplane without a parachute is the responsible thing to do.

Yes? I agree?

But stepping out of the airplane WITH a parachute is responsible.

[jackfaire]

Yes? I agree?

But stepping out of the airplane WITH a parachute is responsible.

Exactly which according to the person that posted "Avoiding consequences is irresponsible" you should refuse the parachute because avoiding the consequence of jumping from a plane is irresponsible.

[Seshat]

Part of my issue with birth control is that it's used a lot to remove personal responsibility. And that's stupid.


I can understand that some people use birth control with the (incorrect) idea that it's 100% safe, 100% effective, and even prevents STDs. And then go around acting irresponsibly.


However, the key word in that sentence is some.


Many, many people sit down and study birth control options, discuss them with their doctor, if appropriate they also discuss them with their religious advisor. Then select the one (or more) which they feel most appropriate to their bodies, their lives, and their families. Including any existing or desired children.


The former people need to learn responsibility. That is an issue separate, IMO, from birth control.
The latter people already have responsibility. Birth control is just a tool they use as part of acting responsibly.

[HYHYBT]

Jumping from a plane wearing a parachute can be irresponsible as well.