Scientology

[friendofjimmyk]

I started to rant about Tom Cruise and his shennanigans on the CS board and I stated that I will take my Scientology opinions here to fratching...so here I am...

Scientology is bunk! It's a "religion" created by a science fiction writer. Its claims are not only outrageous - but in order to have Scientology work for you - you have to have lots of money. The only way to receive the benefits of this "religion" is to keep paying them money to advance through different levels of their "healings".

I have researched this "religion". I didn't want to run off making statements that were not backed up by any research.

I have read the principles and the "rituals" of Scientologists. Scientology came about in the early 50's if I recall correctly. This is several years after 12-step fellowships and many counseling theories were formulated. I am a member of a 12-step fellowship and I am also studying to be a therapist. When I was researching Scientology I was baffled at how much the ideology of Scientology sounded like the ideology of some counseling theories and 12-step principles.

In reading through information that was formulated about L Ron Hubbard and how its reported that he was a substance abuser and a paranoid schizophrenic. I concluded that he may have been through a 12-step fellowship at some point as well as several therapists and Psychiatrists. Which makes sense at how he formulated some of his ideas for Scientology.

Then add to that the OUTRAGEOUS story behind the reason for why we experience things the way we do. Because an evil alien lord froze other aliens and dropped them in volcanoes on our planet and then when their souls escaped, the evil lord blocked them from entering the atmosphere sending then back down to earth to wander aimlessly until they eventually inhabited our ancestors. :eek: WHAT THE FUCK?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Can you say "whack job!"

Tom Cruise making the statement that Psychiatry is bunk and there is no proof that it works or that people even need Psychiatrists based on the "teachings" of L. Ron Hubbard is ridiculous. L Ron is a hack. He was bat shit crazy (he used to think the FBI was following him all the time - he was an extremely paranoid individual who was diagnosed as so by Psychiatrists!) It's also reported that he commited suicide - but the powers to be at Scientology do their best to claim otherwise.

Tom Cruise making the statement that they are the "authorities on addiction" is insane. The only thing that Scientologists are authorities on is crazy! Oh, and bilking a good portion of our celebrities out of thier cash. Because only the super rich can afford to move up in Scientology - it's not a "religion" for "common people."

[Rapscallion]

What baffles me is that those who become scientologists just don't seem to realise that the discoverer/creator was a noted writer of science fiction.

Pretty big hint.

Rapscallion

[Amethyst Hunter]

Scientology's nothing but a crackpot cult, and a dangerous one at that. IMO it should be treated as such.

As for Tom Cruise, he seriously needs to go drink the Special Kool-Aid. :D

[daleduke17]

Scientology's nothing but a crackpot cult, and a dangerous one at that. IMO it should be treated as such.

As for Tom Cruise, he seriously needs to go drink the Special Kool-Aid. :D

What did Kool-Aid ever do to get lumped in with crackpots and cults? Kool-Aid is an innocent victim. :-p

[Pedersen]

What did Kool-Aid ever do to get lumped in with crackpots and cults? Kool-Aid is an innocent victim. :-p

Jonestown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown) cult committed mass suicide using poisoned grape Flavor-aid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid).

[daleduke17]

Jonestown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown) cult committed mass suicide using poisoned grape Flavor-aid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid).

I knew there was a couple cults that really did that, I was making a smartass comment. I'm surprised people haven't tried to sue Kool-Aid's (and Flavor-Aid's) owners for being "responsible".

[CancelMyService]

To be fair, the FBI was after Hubbard. They knew that Scientology was basically a con designed to shake down members for ridiculous "fees" to gain access to higher levels.

IMO Hubbard was also suffering from an undiagnosed mental disorder, possibly schizophrenia. It would explain both his increasingly odd behavior as his life went on and Scientology's inbred hatred of psychology (to think it's a real science is to be "glib", as ol' Tom would say).

[friendofjimmyk]

What baffles me is that those who become scientologists just don't seem to realise that the discoverer/creator was a noted writer of science fiction.

Pretty big hint.

Rapscallion

EXACTLY!!!!! He was a SCIENCE FICTION writer - he has TONS of books in the genre of SCIENCE FICTION!!!!

I mean, c'mon!!!!!

[friendofjimmyk]

To be fair, the FBI was after Hubbard. They knew that Scientology was basically a con designed to shake down members for ridiculous "fees" to gain access to higher levels.

IMO Hubbard was also suffering from an undiagnosed mental disorder, possibly schizophrenia. It would explain both his increasingly odd behavior as his life went on and Scientology's inbred hatred of psychology (to think it's a real science is to be "glib", as ol' Tom would say).

Yeah, I had heard he was actually under investigation for basically being a con artist.

And yes - that is why Scientology is so anti-psychiatry/psychology - because ol L Ron was wacko and didn't like his diagnosis so, of course, the doctor was wrong and the ENTIRE field is bunk! Makes sense - NOT!!!

[DesignFox]

What baffles me is that those who become scientologists just don't seem to realise that the discoverer/creator was a noted writer of science fiction.

Pretty big hint.

Rapscallion

A fool and his money are soon parted... :D

Hubbard was a damn genius in that regard (not applauding him, I think it was a dirtbag thing to do, but you have to admit, it was genius).

I find it amazing that there are that many truly clueless people that'll just go for that garbage...especially garbage spewed out by a madman.

[Slytovhand]

Ah... why do I always miss out on the good bits??? (I haven't visited here for a few weeks... needed to get away from arguments for a while).

I don't call myself a scientologist, but I do have respect for some of the techniques involved. I also personally know ppl who have been through the 'Church' of $cientology - and those who are still involved with it.. and those who aren't.

I don't know the 'reality' behind the whole story, but I've heard a stack of propaganda - from both sides. And I'm not about to defend such things (nor really add to them).

What I will say is quite simple.. I have experienced some of the techniques which are employed in scientology, and they are quite effective for what they are meant to do. no, I haven't gone through all of them (but will be sort of shortly). I am not involved with the Co$, though I have been. For various reasons (which don't quite reflect what has been written here, but certainly can be seen to relate to it), I have no desire to go near it again (I think I've mentioned that elsewhere... and will go read that thread shortly...:) )

I, having quite different beliefs to most scientologists, have a more interesting perspective on things. Such as - what if <insert deity of choice> looked down and heard LRH making his wager with ?Asimov (IIRC) about being able to make his own religion... and then actually gave him some truths?? I believe He/She/It/they have a sense of humour... and a sense of irony.

Am I 'truly clueless'.. who goes 'for that garbage'?? dont' think so... but then, I meditate, and ppl think that's rubbish too!


Slyt

[BlaqueKatt]

I find it amazing that there are that many truly clueless people that'll just go for that garbage...especially garbage spewed out by a madman.



Yes NOW we know from information gathered over time-however 14 years ago they almost got me. I was searching for meaning in life and stumbled across a book that "explained" the beliefs of scientology-I can understand how it can be attractive(especially to celebrities). The book explained that humans have a collective consciousness-and that if we let down the barriers of our mind we would all share knowledge. They explained this is why so many people "remember" being Cleopatra in a former life, or some other famous historical person-through the collective consciousness we all were, we also all were a lowly peasant, but choose not to open our minds to that memory. It also states that once you are aware of this "collective consciousness" and work to eliminate the "walls of your mind" and reach out to others that have eliminated the walls, We are actually all God.

Tell an actor they are actually God(as in creator of the universe God), you don't think that would seem attractive? The bat-shiat crazy stuff doesn't come in until after you're hooked, and humans do not like to admit they've been duped-so they keep going deeper, hoping to be redeemed.

Look at how many people are still duped by the "nigerian money scam", or "Pyramid Schemes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme)/Ponzi schemes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme)*" most for increasing amounts, because they refuse to admit they've been duped, so they keep sending money.

*And pyramid schemes make you get your friends involved-I see Scientology as a pyramid scheme without cash payout-the payout is instead, you get to feel smug and superior(I'm God, and I know more than you pathetic mortals)-which to some is worth more than money.


Some experts have suggested that unregulated virtual world banks such as Second Life's Ginko Financial closely resemble Ponzi schemes. By February 2007, Ginko was noted by the Illinois Business Law Journal for offering interest in the range of 44% annually on virtual "bank accounts," with no real transparency in the entity's investment strategy.[24]

Ultimately, Ginko Financial declared itself insolvent in August 2007, reporting unpayable Linden Dollar deposits in the L$200,000,000 range (roughly $650,000 USD at current exchange rates).[25]

[Slytovhand]

While what you have said, BK, may be very much true (re: collective consciousness, "walls of mind", godhood, etc), it is no different than any other religion.

Collective consciousness is (IIRC) part of Jungian psychology, 'remembering' being Cleopatra or any other individual is pretty standard for any beliefs which incorporate reincarnation. And not wanting to admit being duped is a normal human reaction/response.

Being God is, to me, not overly much different (when looked at from the outside as a non-believer... just need to clarify that point before I get shot down in flames here...) from saying that you are part of the chosen people, or that because you follow a certain belief, you are saved while all the others aren't - and you get to feel smug and superior to the other ignorant masses.

Religion (of whatever context) has a tendency to play on people's egos. Especially if it's an organised religion. Whether it's positive reinforcement ('you are great and fantastic', etc) or negative ('if you don't do this, then you'll go to hell' etc), it's still 'duping' people.

I mean, when I look around at religion in general, I do wonder just what it is about scientology that comes under so much fire, in comparison to so many other religions out there - including (and probably especially) the 'mainstream' religions. When I look at them in a rational logical light, I really don't see it being any worse (though in some cases, better) than most other religions.

Can anyone explain that one to me??

Slyt

[BlaqueKatt]

I mean, when I look around at religion in general, I do wonder just what it is about scientology that comes under so much fire, in comparison to so many other religions out there<snip>

Can anyone explain that one to me??




Possibly because it tends to mirror the "traditional religions" and due to it's "youth" comparitvely(most other mainstream religions are 1000-2000 years old), look at the mocking Gallelio took for challenging the age-old belief that the Earth was center of the universe.

It's easier to tear apart and mock something that threatens your beliefs if it's newer-because it doesn't have the "history" and tradition yours does.

we'll look at it as if it were an institute of higher learning.

Harvard has been around since 1687, the university of WI has been around since 1848, MATC(Madison Area Technical College) since 1911, Herzing College since around 1970(not excatly sure on that)-I know people that have gone to all four for the same degrees, however the Harvard Grads mock the UW and MATC grads for going to an "inferior(read newer) school", and UW and MATC grads mock Herzing-when Herzing students flunk out they go to MATC and get on the dean's list-what does that tell you about the caliber of education from MATC vs Herzing(Herzing is also cheaper to attend)? Herzing the younger school is actually better-however since it doesn't have the history, and is cheaper people assume it's inferior.

Would you rather hire someone that graduated from Harvard Law at the bottom of the class or from UW at the top of their class? Most companies would choose the Harvard grad-even if the UW student knew more due to the prestige of the "historical school".


Same with most religion-the older religions have more "prestige" than the newcomer Scientology, so they mock the younger one.

Personally I don't like ANY organized religion(Buddhisim is NOT a religion*, it's merely a code of ethics, no doctrine, no God(s), no Dogma-and yes I get tired of telling people that)---as it encourages laziness and apathy(pray for a solution, as opposed to actually doing something or "it was God's will")

*Definition of Religion for those that want to argue:

re·li·gion
n.

1.
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

[CancelMyService]

Also Scientology is not a real religion, it's a pyramid scheme cooked up by a writer of bad science fiction who most likely had undiagnosed mental disorders which led the "church" he founded to have a hysterical fear of psychiatry that has led to even more people suffering.

People tend to giggle since it looks like only celebs with money to spare get fleeced, but there's been several cases of non famous folks who were conned into not only handing over money but also property like houses all in the name of being cleansed of their body thetans.

There's a reason more than a few countries keep a close watch on them or ban them outright: Scientology is a dangerous cult that demands its followers to spend large amounts of money to advance to higher levels and uses fear and intimidation to keep any doubters in check.

[Slytovhand]

CancelMyService - please read over what I said previously. I know that you are expressing your opinion, and it's also true that people have been severely hounded by that particular cult (that calls itself a 'church'), and that some of those people have committed suicide due to the harrassment, intimidation, etc caused by them - but 'scientology' is not limited merely to the doings and goings of the 'church' alone. Being a 'christian' does not automatically mean you are one of the looney fringe that believe in killing yourself and others for a holy cause so you can get to heaven. And yes, there have been christian cults that have done that... does all christianity get thrown into the same boat as you've just thrown all of scientology to the Co$ boat?

BlaqueKatt... what happened to #3??? (which should actually have been number 4). Buddhism is surely "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader" - yes??

And, because of the 5 different possible meanings of the definition of the word, yes, scientology would be defined as a religion!


Slyt

[AFPheonix]

Color me stupid, but I don't think the church of Scientology has really split into different sects like Christianity has. Furthermore, a lot of the rot comes directly from the top in Scientology, as do the directives to spend money to earn certificates.

Not defending other world religions or anything since a lot of bad shit has gone down in their names too, but at this point the largest ones are so diffuse that it's difficult to blame the actions of a few on the entire thing. Scientology is small enough and new enough that you can, since the few, like Cruise, are poster children for the whole.

[Slytovhand]

APF - sorta. There's the 'church', and then there's a group called the 'Freezone'. Naturally, the church derides the Freezoners.

The Freezone is about keeping what works, and chucking the crap that doesn't - including the attitude.

You're not likely to find the Freezone unless you particularly look for it - it doesn't advertise itself because they'll cop the harrassment, intimidation and other crap from the church - but even more so. Mostly because a stack of the Freezoners were part of the church, saw the bad crap, and got the hell out.

But...yes - the rot comes from the top, and Tom saying some of the things he does (and, of course, some things being taken out of context...) doesn't really help. But, I do note, it's Tom doing a stack of damage, and not other prominent scientologists... John Travolta, Kirstie Alley, the Presleys, Beck, Isaac Hayes, et al. No-one seems to be overly questioning their sanity (Kirstie Alley has stated that it saved her life).


So - all I'm saying is that there is more to the story than becomes well known, and while there is undeniably a stack of bad crap, it's not (dare I use the term) 'fair' to write the whole lot off in one sweeping motion.


No AFP, you're not even remotely stupid - it's just something that tends to remain very very quiet (as per the 'harrassment and intimidation' I mentioned above...)


Slyt

[Boozy]

BlaqueKatt... what happened to #3??? (which should actually have been number 4). Buddhism is surely "A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader" - yes??

No. Buddhism is a philosophy. The "teachings" of the Buddha are not to be taken as doctrine. Buddhists are continually warned to question everything, and to discard any conclusions they may have drawn, including those of the Buddha himself, if the evidence dictates.

Incidentally, there is no such thing as "belief" in Buddhist thought anyways. Beliefs are considered false constructs, and Buddhists would consider it ludicrous to hold them.

Buddhists do perform rituals on occasion. These are holdovers from their roots in Hinduism, and Buddhists find them very helpful as meditation aids. They aren't any more sacred to a Buddhist than a lamp post.

[Slytovhand]

I'm thinking this ought to be topic on it's own, but since it's here....

Isn't that more semantics? After all, the term 'supernatural power' is fairly lively, and depending on who you talk to will determine whether something is really supernatural or not??

A Buddhist may not say they have 'beliefs', but the rest of the planet would say that they do...????Which, to my mind, is similar to a christian saying that pagans don't worship gods, but a version of the devil, but (of course) the pagans are going to disagree....

Thus, the concept of 'belief' fits. Certainly 'values and practices' surely does.

All comes down to definitions... isn't language fun?? :p

Slyt



(edit: yes, I have studied Buddhism....)


(hey - don't you 'believe' that it's actually a philosophy, and not a religion?? hehehe :P)

[wanderingjoe72]

It has been purported that Scientology is the result of a bet between L Ron Hubbard and Arthur C Clarke. Hubbard stated that he could start a religion and scientology is the result. Depending on where you look, this is supported and refuted. One telling also has Clarke starting a religion and then abandoning it as he felt it was getting out of control. Hubbard found that he liked being revered and continued on to build the "church" as it is today. Research it at your leisure and make up your own mind.

I personally haven't seen anything by Tom Cruise in a long time, mainly because his beliefs have turned him into a real asshole.

[Slytovhand]

Yeah, I heard that one WanderingJoe. I go with the idea it's true... but I also like the idea that the Gods of Irony jumped in and helped out a bit :p (but then, I'm like that...)

Really? Last I heard was Katie was leaving him... and not too soon either! Someone starts forcing their beliefs on you, you leave them in the dirt. (of course, that's all tabloid stuff, so who knows what the truth is?? And if it is, how stupid not to realise that it just might be a problem and not do something about it? There's enough cult girls out there who'd adore being his wife...)

[Flyndaran]

Ok, here I go.
I consider Scientology to be on the absolute edge of how absurd a religion can get before it becomes a loony cult.
Yes, as a born atheist the idea that people can murder eachother, because of how 1+1+1=3 or whether the right of ledearship succession should be heritable or to the best pupil.
The idea of volcano nuking aliens doesn't really set of any laugh alarms that conventional religions don't.

[Slytovhand]

Hmmm... isn't it Anriana's sig line of "The plural of anecdote is not data"??

[IDrinkaRum]

Bart Simpson's voice used to promote a Scientology event (http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=350116&gt1=28103).

Nancy Cartwright - the voice of Bart Simpson - is a Scientologist and though the article says she identifies herself as herself, most of the message promoting the event was in Bart's voice.

[Flyndaran]

Bart Simpson's voice used to promote a Scientology event (http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=350116&gt1=28103).

Nancy Cartwright - the voice of Bart Simpson - is a Scientologist and though the article says she identifies herself as herself, most of the message promoting the event was in Bart's voice.

That sounds illegal to use someone else's property to promote your own agenda in a non-satirical manner.

[Flyndaran]

Hmmm... isn't it Anriana's sig line of "The plural of anecdote is not data"??

How about the plural of tired expressions is not wisdom? ;)

[Slytovhand]

That sounds illegal to use someone else's property to promote your own agenda in a non-satirical manner.

Yeah, that's got to be a fun one... after all, it is her voice, so 'property' would be interesting.

And it said 'phone message'.. sounds like an even more fun court hearing..

As for my previous post, that was to indicate.."where's your evidence", or "where are you getting your information from", because, as someone who knows scientologists, and read various official (and unofficial) books and documents on the subject, I hear stuff from the general public that seems a stack of hogwash and taken out of context (sort of like saying, eg, Christians worship a dead guy...weird).

(and yeah, I know, you probably do see Xtians that way :p)

[Flyndaran]

In the same vein it would be my hand drawing Micky Mouse. It doesn't make it any less illegal.
Cartwright does not own the Bart Simpson character, to my knowledge at least.

[Slytovhand]

I don't see the similarity. Nancy Cartwright did the voice - it's not like she's copying someone else's voice when she does it.

If you draw Mickey Mouse, then you are deliberately copying someone else's image.

Not that I have any idea how the law is going to pan out on this, I'm certainly not a lawyer, and not an american litigation lawyer at that.

[AdminAssistant]

If Nancy was portraying herself as Bart Simpson, then yes, it would be illegal.

Of course, copyright law is an incredibly complex thing, something we can actually thank Mickey Mouse for. See, every time Walt Disney's copyright on Mickey comes close to expiring, the Disney corporation lobbies Congress to extend copyright law. They'll do anything to keep Mickey from going into the public domain.

[PepperElf]

the bart ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnoMGqcN554)

There's no video (other than some words saying there's no video) but the youtube link has the audio recording of her doing the ad. She claims to be Bart at first and then does a Bart laugh and says who she REALLY is but.. yeah she keeps using the Bart-voice to talk, though it does end up sounding slightly more feminine in the middle.

Granted yes it's *her* voice, but... I think she's taking advantage of her popularity with children to an interesting low.


anyway... the thing i find most interesting about the "religion" is... if I remember correctly, wasn't L. Ron Hubbard a racist?

And... the wiki article on him didn't directly say it but they did note use of racial slurs in his diary, etc.


"As a Chinaman can not live up to a thing, he always drags it down."
"They smell of all the baths they didnt [sic] take. The trouble with China is, there are too many ch***s here."

And his writings on Africans were equally disparaging. Wikipedia says the 2007 copy the scientology book changed "African" to "primitive" but... hey he still wrote it in the first place.

Granted it may be because he was a product of the time and during the years he was growing up, it wasn't considered rude to use racial slurs... but... sorry it still makes me twitch.

[Slytovhand]

Well, if she just said "Hi, I'm Nancy Cartwright", the majority of people would say "Who??". In doing Bart first, she identifies herself.

I'm not so sure it's aimed at kids, because if you look at the stats of Simpsons watchers, there's a lot of adults who love it. (noting, I haven't heard the audio - can't get youtube here).


oh, I've read a few things apparently written by LRH (not saying he didn't, but I do also know of stuff that's been put in his name by the church anyway), and yeah... I've cringed. While I like a lot (well, maybe only some) of the processes and theories he's written, he's still a bit of a nutter, IMHO. Very egocentric. And his cult members are incredibly indoctrinated... like good little robots.

[anriana]

[color=pink]anyway... the thing i find most interesting about the "religion" is... if I remember correctly, wasn't L. Ron Hubbard a racist?

Mormonism considered Black people inferior/cursed for 200 years.

Christianity/Judaism advocated the killing of children based on their race.

Can we disparage those too?

[PepperElf]

well that depends...

i don't specifically recall the baby-killing passages but... i'm pretty sure Christ himself didn't advocate killing anyone, let alone children... so in a way for christianity at least, to me that'd be a moot point, and even with the bible passages... it woudl be a moot point because obviously no one sane believes that.

but... then again LRH's "bible" was supposedly written to see if they could trick people into following it... so either way, *shrug*

[lordlundar]

hmm, Nancy must have got a revision in her latest contract, or found a loophole in it. The last one I recall specifically prohibited her from using the voice for anything apart from the show itself and any promotions approved by Fox.

If neither circumstance is true, she could be held accountable for a breach of contract. Not that I care either way, the last episode of the simpsons I watched was several months ago and that was one of their early ones.

[Antipsych]

I don't agree with 99% of Scientology, but don't get me started on psychiatry and Sigmund the Fraud.

[Boozy]

I don't agree with 99% of Scientology, but don't get me started on psychiatry and Sigmund the Fraud.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you DO want someone to "get you started" on psychiatry, or you wouldn't have said anything. ;)

Please start a new thread if you do decide to share your thoughts on the subject. This thread is about Scientology. A little thread drift never bothers me, but psychiatry is a whole new topic.

[Antipsych]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you DO want someone to "get you started" on psychiatry, or you wouldn't have said anything. ;)

Please start a new thread if you do decide to share your thoughts on the subject. This thread is about Scientology. A little thread drift never bothers me, but psychiatry is a whole new topic.

Yeah, you're probably right. After I collect my thoughts well enough to say what I want to, I will, in another thread. And then I'll prepare to defend myself, because the masses have been brainwashed into believing that King Fraud is God. No offense intended to you, if you believe in psychiatry, or to anyone else who does. Okay, enough said for now.

[tropicsgoddess]

I don't see how some people or mostly celebrities for the matter look at Scientology as an actual religion. Seriously, how the fuck can you say that a religion that was created by a science fiction writer where you use machines to read your "aura" or whatever the fuck it's called. That is more like some culty stuff to me, like that dude who did the Heaven's gate cult in the late 90's.

[Flyndaran]

I don't see how some people or mostly celebrities for the matter look at Scientology as an actual religion. Seriously, how the fuck can you say that a religion that was created by a science fiction writer where you use machines to read your "aura" or whatever the fuck it's called. That is more like some culty stuff to me, like that dude who did the Heaven's gate cult in the late 90's.

So nutjob thousands of years ago = real religiion, but one only decades ago = cult?
That seems overly subjective.
Honestly, scientology doesn't seem any less sensible than most "real" religions out there.

[Slytovhand]

I don't see how some people or mostly celebrities for the matter look at Scientology as an actual religion. Seriously, how the fuck can you say that a religion that was created by a science fiction writer where you use machines to read your "aura" or whatever the fuck it's called. That is more like some culty stuff to me, like that dude who did the Heaven's gate cult in the late 90's.

Definitions...

It's a 'religion' because it is 'presumed' that there is life after death, something that survives the death of the body. Belief in an 'aura' as you say would also make it qualify (not that I'm saying they do believe in auras...).

I think it's a 'religion' to get tax exempt status, otherwise it wouldn't matter (hence why on their 'catalogue' of courses etc, the payments are called 'donations'..<cough cough>)

[MadMike]

I think it's a 'religion' to get tax exempt status, otherwise it wouldn't matter (hence why on their 'catalogue' of courses etc, the payments are called 'donations'..<cough cough>)

That's one thing I have a huge problem with, with religions in general. Especially the ones that want to influence politics. George Carlin said it best -- if you're so interested in politics, fine! Pay your fuckin' admission like everyone else!

[the_std]

I don't see how some people or mostly celebrities for the matter look at Scientology as an actual religion. Seriously, how the fuck can you say that a religion that was created by a science fiction writer where you use machines to read your "aura" or whatever the fuck it's called. That is more like some culty stuff to me, like that dude who did the Heaven's gate cult in the late 90's.

How is that more ridiculous than believing that some guy, who was born to a virgin human woman, was the son of god, turned water into wine (without the usual process of fermentation), cured lepers with his touch, and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven?

I'm not saying I support Scientology or that I hate Christianity, but that isn't a very valid basis of comparison. Most organized religion is about leaps of faith and believing illogical things.

[IDrinkaRum]

Court in France convicts Church of Scientology for Fraud and fined it around $900,000 (http://news.aol.com/article/church-of-scientology-convicted-of-fraud/497105?icid=main|aimzones|dl1|link7|http%3A%2F%2Fn ews.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fchurch-of-scientology-convicted-of-fraud%2F497105)

However, it did not ban the Church as prosecutors wanted them to do.

[jackfaire]

One of the reason's Scientology gets attacked more is because the Spanish Inquisition was centuries ago but today Scientology is telling it's members who need psychological help to stop taking their medication.

It isn't just Scientology either every, "We are all God" faith dislikes things like psychology and hard science.

A girl I am seeing refuses to celebrate her birthday and tries to stay emotionally uninvolved with anything because apparently those are the keys to immortality.

She has a semi cult mentality sometimes and it's freaky.

[Skunkle]

The part about Scientology that irks me isn't the "religion" itself. That, well, if they decide it's a religion, it can be.

The thing is, aside from whether or not their techniques of healing work, in the main body of the church a member must pay prices - exorbitant prices, which increase at each step. Admittedly, some Christian denominations require the person to tithe certain amounts, too, but we are not talking hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even to the smaller points: the E-Meters, which do do exactly what they say (noted below). To run church-sanctioned testing, one must p[urchase an e-meter - which currently is noted to cost about $4,000. And one must have it tested a few times per year at another (high) cost, and must buy a new model when the old one is replaced with a new official model.

The e-meter is essentially just a measurement of skin conductivity. The commonly seen "stress test" offered by Scientologists consists of setting the needle to center to compensate for existing conductivity, then asking questions about events or happenings which may be causing you stress. If something is indeed stressful, the sweat will affect the needle. The issues arise from two things following this: First, there is the notion of what, exactly, causes this stress - I believe the stress is real, the supposed causes are bull. But second, those who run these "stress tests" know next to nothing about Scientology itself - they're usually recent converts - and cannot explain how the meter works or what it indicates. By this, I mean that even explaining what it really is would not destroy their claims - but yet they keep people in the dark as though this will keep them devoted. Next you take one of the "stress tests", ask them questions - they will almost always tell you that they really don't know because they're new, they're honest and polite about this.

I've only met one who tried to bluster his way through, rather than saying he really wasn't sure. I asked him if my being Christian would have any conflict with my being a Scientologist. At first, he told me quite assuredly that there would be no conflict. I wioggled around a bit before asking again, and was told the same thing. We chatted a bit more, and in the course of conversation about Scientology-as-religion, he then stated with equal self-assurance that Scientology was a substitute for Christianity, and thus one did not need and could discard the latter if one had the former. Wondering if he'd notice the discrepancy (since this later response wasn't as a result of my direct askin g, unlike earlier) I asked the same question I'd asked twice before: Would my being Christian have any conflict with my being a Scientologist? He stated quite assuredly that if I am a Scientologist I do not need and in fact should discard Christianity.

...

As stated, he's the only one who tried to bluster through with BS instead of saying "I don't know" or stating that he/she would say (answer) but that, being new, they might be incorrect, and he never did notice that he'd given me two countering answers to the same question in a span of five minutes.

[Slytovhand]

Nice post Skunkle.

Part of the reason it gets called a 'religion' is it takes what would be considered some 'belief's, though those are based on what one perceives as personal experiences..

In theory, there's no contradiction in being a Christian and a Scientologist... "What's true for you, is true for you". In theory, they're not supposed to tell you anything. The whole process of auditing is for you to get your realisations for yourself.

$4000 for an e-meter?? Holy crap! They've gone down!!! Last I saw, they were $10,000 or so! (and you can make a decent one for about $800 - cost in electronics parts).

I've said before, and I will say again, the 'church' of $cio is a money-making business... it gets ppl in, and gets them to believe things... it's basically a cult.

Unfortunately, it's also got some damned handy bits of info/technology in it! Ah, always the way!

[Dreamstalker]

EXACTLY!!!!! He was a SCIENCE FICTION writer - he has TONS of books in the genre of SCIENCE FICTION!!!!
A local Borders has Dianetics shelved under Religion. Or it could be a long-running prank, all I know is I consistently see that title polluting the other innocent books. The others seem to be in sci-fi where they belong (I occasionally see them shoved in with Humor).

[Slytovhand]

EXACTLY!!!!! He was a SCIENCE FICTION writer - he has TONS of books in the genre of SCIENCE FICTION!!!!

I mean, c'mon!!!!!

Since it was just re-quoted, I thought I'd jump on it.

You are aware that there is nothing inherently illogical about writing more than 1 genre, and having good skill with both... (now, if he was a comedian, I'd probably take a slightly different angle on it.. but then, there are also some very well educated comedians out there who have done great things in a different field altogether! Hasn't John Cleese written books on business management? (or was it just videos?). Bill Oddie (The Goodies) is a rather world-reknown ornithologist and documentary maker....


Just picking up on the one point... and choosing not to get into the others......

[BroomJockey]

You are aware that there is nothing inherently illogical about writing more than 1 genre, and having good skill with both...

No, but it's hard to take the story of the beliefs of the Church of Scientology seriously once you know the "prophet" made his living creating scenarios like that.

[IDrinkaRum]

Aaaah ... but see ... his science-fiction books weren't really science-fiction. They were his early attempts at getting the word out to people of what to expect in the future.

He finally was able to write his Bible (for lack of a better word) to indoctrinate ... I mean to bring people into the fold and let them know the truth of what he tells/told them.

(all tongue-in-cheeck of course)

[Fashion Lad!]

Gotta say, I believe that most religions if not all could be filed under "BS". But, I'm not a religious person. If I were Catholic, I'd say that the Catholic religion is the only one worthwhile and so forth. Who are we to judge other people's "religion"? It for some reason makes them happy, let them go on. It's not hurting anyone.

[BroomJockey]

It's not hurting anyone.

Except the CoS DOES hurt people. And I'm not talking about charging money, or anything like that.

I'm talking actual physical damage done to humans and property.

Lisa McPherson.
Operation Snow White.
"Fair Game" orders.
Literally dozens of other examples

So while other religions have a history of things, meaning happened centuries ago, CoS has a present of doing shit. And unlike modern religious extremism, this shit is sanctioned the entire way up the chain.

[bunnyboy]

Except the CoS DOES hurt people. And I'm not talking about charging money, or anything like that.

I'm talking actual physical damage done to humans and property.

Lisa McPherson.
Operation Snow White.
"Fair Game" orders.
Literally dozens of other examples

So while other religions have a history of things, meaning happened centuries ago, CoS has a present of doing shit. And unlike modern religious extremism, this shit is sanctioned the entire way up the chain.

Other than the fact that the average everyday not paying for OT III Scientologist or freezoner really ISN'T hurting anyone I'd say you have it right.

You know just like the average Christian isn't a bible-thumping God Haets Fags loving, religious zealot, or every Catholic isn't ALWAYS on the side of the Pope (just think of the sedevacantists, or to a slight degree Angus Dei), or every Atheist isn't that one God Delusion guy, neither is every scientologist a fair gaming, snow white loving, sickly-lady killer.

Is the CoS bad, yes, is Scientology, not any more than New Age, Laveyan Satanism, or Thelema.

Oh and try telling the extremism isn't all the way up the chain to the folks in Iran or the Taliban controlled areas of Pakistan/Afghanistan.

So nutjob thousands of years ago = real religiion, but one only decades ago = cult?
That seems overly subjective.
Honestly, scientology doesn't seem any less sensible than most "real" religions out there.

Exactly, the whole thing is cult + time = real religion and time is usually about 1000 years, if it survives.

One of the reason's Scientology gets attacked more is because the Spanish Inquisition was centuries ago but today Scientology is telling it's members who need psychological help to stop taking their medication.

It isn't just Scientology either every, "We are all God" faith dislikes things like psychology and hard science.

A girl I am seeing refuses to celebrate her birthday and tries to stay emotionally uninvolved with anything because apparently those are the keys to immortality.

She has a semi cult mentality sometimes and it's freaky.

Eh aside from morons who don't think beyond A! GOD! AM! I! (was that over the top, I can never tell.) most of those faiths (if Laveyan Satanism can be called a faith) are pretty much, dude you NEED to be healthy dumbshit, you might be a god, but you're more like the one that needed Idun's apples to continue living.

really it comes down to how stupid the people following are. Tom Cruise isn't Scientology just like Mel Gibson is Catholicism, just like the local Wicca Shop owner who's as fluffy as can be isn't Wicca, might need to remind people that even Scientologists dislike Mr. Cruise.

[jackfaire]

Not just in Scientology but in all faiths that believe psychology can be replaced with vitamins is fine in most cases however those with mental illnesses need medicine and treatment.

Those that do not seek treatment because they are being told that their mental illnes can be cured with vitamins or that it is all in their minds can be a danger to themselves and others.

[BroomJockey]

Other than the fact that the average everyday not paying for OT III Scientologist or freezoner really ISN'T hurting anyone I'd say you have it right.
.

This would be why I'm saying "CoS," not "Scientology."

[Fashion Lad!]

Murder (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm) has been apart of just about any major religion. To cut down one religion and not the rest for doing the same thing seems a bit hypocritical.

[jackfaire]

Murder (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm) has been apart of just about any major religion. To cut down one religion and not the rest for doing the same thing seems a bit hypocritical.

This is a discussion about Scientology cutting down one religion about something that others do as well isn't hypocritical unless your defending other faiths' right to do the same thing.

Other than that you can disparage one group for something without each and every time having to cite every group that does that and complain about them too. Doesn't make you hypocritical just means you aren't talking about them in this moment.

[Fashion Lad!]

I disagree with you. I mention that something isn't harming anyone. broomjockey showed me wrong. But we have high ranking Catholic dudes (not religious) basically agreeing Islamic extremeists in the martydom when it comes to saving the world from homosexuals.

So why is it different when one religion kills just like many others? What makes scientology different than any other religion other than beliefs?

I will recognize Scientology as a religion despite its short-comings just like I recognize Catholicism as a religion. But I will not cut down one religion for doing what others before them have done.

[BroomJockey]

Murder (http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm) has been apart of just about any major religion. To cut down one religion and not the rest for doing the same thing seems a bit hypocritical.

I suggest you look at my post near the start of the "Has religion become about hate" thread.

http://www.fratching.com/showpost.php?p=29500&postcount=5 <--That one, in point of fact. So to accuse me of hypocrisy is laughable.

To me, though, the difference is that currently, other religions are not actively participating in sanctioned murder. Anything of the sort is from extremists who do not represent the views of the majority of the religion's hierarchy. The Church of Scientology, however, is actively and currently engaged in abominable behaviour, right through to the top of the main organization, and in fact it's the fringe members who tend to be more reasonable. Thus, I prioritize in choice of targets. CoS = currently evil. Other religions = formerly evil. If the CoS goes through a major reformation that completely halts its abusive, illegal activities, then I'd probably just go against organized religion as a whole.

[Fashion Lad!]

The Church of Scientology, however, is actively and currently engaged in abominable behaviour, right through to the top of the main organization, and in fact it's the fringe members who tend to be more reasonable. Thus, I prioritize in choice of targets. CoS = currently evil. Other religions = formerly evil. If the CoS goes through a major reformation that completely halts its abusive, illegal activities, then I'd probably just go against organized religion as a whole.

All religions have evil. I'd be more willing to bet that most are not going to harm anyone. Catholics against giving homosexuals the same rights as heterosexuals. Lutherans doing the same, only it seems to be more quietly. Catholics in support of Islamic extremists blowing themselves up to protect the world from homosexuals. Scientologists saying that prescription drugs are bad, bad news. Not allowing for any form of psychotherapy. Other countries with other religions beating their mentally challenged because they bring on shame or are possessed.

Most Scientologists bring in their own beliefs from there own churches. All religions have evil. All of them will create evil.

Now, I agree that it's a huge scam to pay for some religion in your life. Scientology is in fact a corporation under the guise of being a place of enlightenment.

But, I disagree with some of the arguments presented to say that Scientology is worse than any other religion.

[Dreamstalker]

I submit for examination this page (http://www.xenu.net/).

[BroomJockey]

Most Scientologists bring in their own beliefs from there own churches.

Okay, I really think you aren't familiar with the CoS. At all. You seem to think it's just another religion you can join or leave as you wish. You don't get to bring your own beliefs. Not from religion, or from anything else. CoS brainwashes people, isolates them, and cripples them mentally. Like any cult, they pull you in slowly, though. CoS is like an abuser. They start out nice and happy, and then slowly kill your self-esteem to the point where you think they're the only ones who will ever accept you. If you try and talk to anyone who's in the CoS, and say anything not strictly approved, you're labelled a "Subversive Person," and no one in the CoS outside a specific branch is allowed contact with you. CoS is a cult, and a dangerous one.

Read that link Dreamstalker provided. Not just a little of it. Take at least an hour with it. Think about it. And then think that it's going on currently, not just in the past.

[jackfaire]

So why is it different when one religion kills just like many others? What makes scientology different than any other religion other than beliefs?

.

Is this to me? Your reply I mean I was wondering if it was aimed at my post. Because yes if you endorse for example one faith that bans gay marriage and say they do nothing wrong but you bash another faith for banning gay marriage yes that would be hypocritical.

However if I am saying, "I hate so and so because they ban gay marriage" I am not a hypcrite because I don't mention sa and sa, lo and lo, etc.

The hypocrisy comes when I praise the others.

[Slytovhand]

I submit for examination this page (http://www.xenu.net/).

The problem with this site, and others like it, is that they don't differentiate between the 'church' of $cientology, and some of the actual techniques used. And that can be a significant difference!

I remember one part of that site I was reading years ago, someone was bitching about the 'brainwashing' and how terrible it was.."All they kept doing to me, for hours and hours on end, was 'do birds fly?' or 'do fish swim?' It was terrible!!" Well, dumbass, obviously you didn't get the damned point of that procedure! (not sure who's fault it was there - other than definitely the coach's.. and the Course Supervisor's).


So - Xenu.net is anti-$cio - not anti-Co$. And it's the Co$ that's evil... right to the top!

BJ, you wanted reform? Well, maybe, but I can inform you that there has been a schism... Ron's Org, Pilot, ClearBird, etc... and they get hammered by the Co$'ers... there's speculation that the Pilot was murdered only shortly after he a) announced his real name, and b) said he's got another book to publish!


As for the stance on psycho-therapy.. let's just imagine a situation, shall we? You take your car to the mechanics, and say it keeps pulling to the left. The mechanic looks over your car, can't really see anything wrong... but your arm is in a sling... Mechanic says "I don't think it's the car, but I can see your arm is in a sling, I think you're actually pulling it over yourself". They go for a drive, and lo and behold, driver is pulling the car to the left with their left arm (while the right is in a sling). So... should the mechanic try and belt something out of the car, or should they do something about the arm??

That is the philosophy behind the stance against drugs and psychiatry!

Now, you may not agree with it, but then that's the whole 'faith' thing, now, isn't it???

(FTR, I can see pros and cons.... until I've seen great unbiased research on some of the stuff they're pulling, I'll remain in 2 minds... because I get the theory, not sure they're doing well with the practice!)

[HYHYBT]

Those that do not seek treatment because they are being told that their mental illness can be cured with vitamins or that it is all in their minds can be a danger to themselves and others.

Being 'in the mind' is pretty much the definition of mental illness :)

[jackfaire]

Being 'in the mind' is pretty much the definition of mental illness :)

I meant mental illnesses such as schizophrenia where you can't simply go oh wait I am just letting my imagination get away with me. I am talking ones that are chemically based.

And Psychology isn't just psychiatry. To lump drugs and psychiatrists in and say thus all psychology is bad is an erroneous assessment.

Psychologists do not and cannot prescribe drugs. If someone were to need meds they would have to be referred to a psychiatrist.

Psychologists focus more on therapy. if they were always telling patients go to so and so and get drugs they would have no patients.

Edit

Oh and psychology is about seeing that the person's arm is in a sling and pointing that out. You don't get anywhere telling a person to think about their mother and telling them she is the issue. Anytime your counseling someone your employing psychology.

[HYHYBT]

My apologies. I tried to make it plain that it was a joke, but will do better next time.

[jackfaire]

My apologies. I tried to make it plain that it was a joke, but will do better next time.

Woops sorry my bad missed the smiley face been a very very very long day at work.

The arm in the sling thing was pointed at the post above yours that implied all of Psychology is about pill popping.

[Slytovhand]

Woops sorry my bad missed the smiley face been a very very very long day at work.

The arm in the sling thing was pointed at the post above yours that implied all of Psychology is about pill popping.

Actually, I brought in the 'arm in a sling', and it didn't refer to pill-popping.

Sorry, I didn't explain the analogy correctly.

It actually refers to the body (and brain etc) are a vehicle which the (for want of a better word) the 'soul' controls. If the 'soul' isn't properly controlling the body because it's got 'issues', then the vehicle will crash... and the vehicle includes the idea of mental health (whether you disagree or not isn't the point here - I'm just pointing out why they are against such things... apart from being idiots!)

[jackfaire]

I'm just pointing out why they are against such things... apart from being idiots!)

Okay. I get defensive because if I had the money/time I would be majoring in psychology (when your not in school your an armchair psychologist (rolls eyes)) and I hear all the time people are against it because of the pill popping attitude that is supposedly so prevelant.

[Slytovhand]

Oh, no, they are against the pill-popping! And the ice-picks....

I was invited to watch a video, and it was all about how every other belief system and psychology etc had failed, and how psychiatrist were evil people who just wanted to lobotomise people with ice-picks all the time, and why Scientology is the only thing good that mankind has ever had.....

Blech!

The Co$ is full of morons! But there's some good people in there too.... if the good people ever get to the top of the chain, maybe some good will come out...????

[Flyndaran]

O...
The Co$ is full of morons! But there's some good people in there too.... if the good people ever get to the top of the chain, maybe some good will come out...????

You could say the same about nearly every church. I have yet to see a major religion or large group of people of any persuasion for that matter truly lead by good people.

[IDrinkaRum]

Celebrity Scientologists other than Tom/Kate/Travolta :D (http://insidemovies.moviefone.com/2009/11/20/celebrity-scientologists/?icid=main|aim|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Finsidemovies .moviefone.com%2F2009%2F11%2F20%2Fcelebrity-scientologists%2F)

Interestingly, they didn't mention Corin Nemec (of "Parker Lewis Can't Lose" and "Stargate: SG1 fame).

[protege]

That's because they aren't the sort to jump on couches on national TV ;)

[jackfaire]

That's because they aren't the sort to jump on couches on national TV ;)

I like to jump on couches :D

I don't usually put them on TVs though I think that would break the TV how do I make my TV national? Flag sticker?

[IDrinkaRum]

Several women are suing the Sea Org, the highest order of Scientology, because they were pressured to have abortions. (http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/former-scientologists-claim-church-forced-them-to-have-abortions/19515068?icid=main|hp-laptop|dl1|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aolnews.com%2Fna tion%2Farticle%2Fformer-scientologists-claim-church-forced-them-to-have-abortions%2F19515068)

[ArenaBoy]

So why is it different when one religion kills just like many others? What makes scientology different than any other religion other than beliefs?


(Warning: WALL OF TEXT)

This may have already been answered but it's piqued my interest.

What makes Scientology different from other established religions (Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, etc), is many things. From suing people to bizarre circumstances.

Unlike most religions, they have a reputation for shoving back at anyone who criticizes them in public. This shows Hubbard's guidelines for dealing with criticism (http://www.xs4all.nl/~johanw/CoS/attacks-on-scn.txt):

(1) Spot who is attacking us.

(2) Start Investigating them promptly for FELONIES or worse using our own
professionals, not outside agencies.

(3) Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them.

(4) Start feeding lurid, blood, sex, crime actual evidence on the
attackers to the press.

I don't think I've ever heard the Catholic Church for example suing anybody for having their beliefs criticized. Or for the constant jokes that get made about them when it comes to priests. Scientology hires people to dig up any information that may look bad in order to draw attention to their attacker. The author of a TIME magazine article that covered them had several attorneys and private investigators after them. All with the CoS. That same author had his credit report obtained by them (illegally). These two articles are what I mentioned:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972865,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,972886,00.html

Scientology is good at taking your cash. Very good. You're pretty much a financial wreck if you want to advance up to a higher level in Scientology. They also want to make sure they get every penny, even if you're dead. Something that poor Noah's parents can attest to.

What makes Scientology so dangerous and regarded as they are is their belief that psychiatry is bad. They also believe that being sick for example is in your mind. This is highly dangerous because it leaves people who suffer schizophrenia for example untreated. It's a train wreck waiting to happen. (Ironically, there were antihistamines found in Hubbard's system) There's also their Narconon program, a group that treats drug addicts. (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/) However, their measures are dangerous. They do not have any qualified medical personnel, is based on bad theories, and potentially puts their patients at serious risk.

WARNING: THIS LINK HAS GRAPHIC AND DISTURBING IMAGES. CLICK AT YOUR OWN RISK. (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/)

There's also the above link. When that happens, people start to get suspicious.

People look at Scientology in a much different light. An acquaintance of mine once paid a visit to a CoS. To best describe him, he's in his own little world. But when he was in there he said he felt some vibes that he did not like and wanted to get the hell out of there.

What makes people look at Scientology differently is that they've been involved in numerous legal controversies. They've been raided by the FDA, they've had problems with the IRS, and they try to damage your reputation if you're criticizing them in a public forum.

Scientology isn't a religion, it's a cult/corporation. They're a corporation in that they try to spin public relations in an overly agressive manner and have a huge team of lawyers. They're the finest example of a cult because they brainwash you into doing things. They deserve their criticism because they've ruined so many lives, they deserve their criticism because they can't handle negative things being said about them. People are suspicious of Scientology because they practice dangerous theories.

People have died due to religion, but this is a different story.

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

To be fair, the FBI was after Hubbard. They knew that Scientology was basically a con designed to shake down members for ridiculous "fees" to gain access to higher levels.

IMO Hubbard was also suffering from an undiagnosed mental disorder, possibly schizophrenia. It would explain both his increasingly odd behavior as his life went on and Scientology's inbred hatred of psychology (to think it's a real science is to be "glib", as ol' Tom would say).

His hatred of psychology stems from farther back than Scientology. I've read the entire "Mission Earth" series and his "social commentary" contained therein has a lot of bashing of psychology.

To the point extreme wherein anyone dealing with psychology and psychiatry are themselves in serious need of mental help.

I enjoyed he series, but man you could see where his perceptions of the world were a little skewed.