Fanfic Pet Hates

[Lace Neil Singer]

I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling this way. Don't get me wrong; I love good, well written fanfic; however, those fics are sadly in the minority buried beneath a pile of dross masquerading as fanfic. I was driven to write this after reading a LOTR fic starring a disgusting Mary Sue who not only was a better archer than Legolas, but was betrothed to him, the tenth of the Fellowship AND had one of the elvish rings. Bitch fucking PLEASE. :rolleyes:


1. Mary Sues. This to me is unfgrgivable; it's not that hard to create a genuinely well rounded character with flaws. Also, creating a self insert who is obviously you, only more speshul, just so you can screw a canon character vicariously thru your loathsome Mary Sue is vomit inducing. Like the aforementioned Mary Sue, most of them are incredibly beautiful, have better powers than the canon characters, have at least one canon person in love with them and basically twist the story for their own ends. They also have ridiculously long names, and flowery descriptions. This makes a fanfic completely unreadable and if you're a purist, makes you basically want to murder the person responsible.

2. Second person writing. Makes me wonder if I've accidently stumbled into a Choose Your Own Adventure story.

3. Unfinished stories. Don't be lazy; finish the bloody story you started. If you don't want to write loads of chapters, then write a oneshot or a five chapter fic. Don't start a huge epic then leave it unfinished halfway thru, especially if it's well written and everyone is going to be annoyed cuz they want to know what happened to your character in the end.

4. No proof reading and/or no beta. If you're going to write fanfiction, please for the love of cheese check thru it before you publish it for basic spelling and grammar mistakes. Also, get someone to read it thru first, preferably not your bestest friend ever, but a neutral who will truthfully tell you if your story's not good enough and tell you what to do to fix it. Don't use chatspeak, insert stupid author notes right in the middle of a chapter, use XXXXX or something similar to divide chapters or change character's names right in the middle of the story for no reason.

5. Canon is key. You know, it's called fanfiction for a reason. The key word is FAN, not fiction. If you don't want to follow the rules of whatever fandom you've chosen to write about, then write original fiction instead. The same goes for unrealistic pairings. No, I'm not talking about slash; done properly, slash can be great. Same goes for non canon pairings. What I mean is people who completely destroy the characters in order to match them up, and don't explain, if they are two characters who hate each other, why they stopped. Just cuz Hermione is with Draco, she's not going to stop being a know it all. He's not going to stop being a cowardly snob. You work around that; you don't turn Draco into a woobie and Hermione into a sex crazed bimbo. If you can't do that, then rename your characters Bill and Teresa, and write an original fiction story.

6. Rapefic. Yes, you can have rape, child abuse, incest etc in your story, but you have to write it in realistically. You can't have someone be raped, and recover instantly from it. Or fall in love with the rapist. I absolutely loath people who write about "non consentual sex" as if it's different from rape. There is no difference; they are exactly the same. If it's Bill and Teresa pretending and playing sex games, then that's fine. But don't have Bill raping Teresa, or Draco raping Hermione, and act like it's perfectly alright.

7. Plagurism. Yes, I know you've seen the movie, but there's no need to copy huge bits out of it and stick it in your story. You're just demonstrating a pitiful lack of imagination, as well as stealing what someone else wrote. The same thing applies to stealing someone else's work and copying it for your story. Any idiot can copy; it takes skill to write something original. Also... songfics. These I hate with a deadly passion. It's like there are people who assume that everyone goes around randomly quoting lyrics into thin air. No wonder even the pit of voles, Fanfiction.com, banned songfics. You know, not just cuz they're irritating and out of place, but it's also plagurism!

8. Lemons. No, I'm not against all sex scenes. Written properly, a sex scene can be very readable. However, it must not be gratitious, unless you're actually writing erotica. And if you're doing that based on a kid's book, I've got to wonder at what resides in your head. O_o A lot of sex scenes, particularly slash scenes, seem to be written not only by virgins, but by people with no fucking idea, pun intended, of how things work. For example, any guy who was given unlubed anal intercourse by another guy would be in pain. Second, semen does not taste "sweet like candy". And outside of porn flicks, women don't squirt cum accross the room. If you can't write a decent sex scene, then just do a fade to black and leave it at that.

9. Saidaphobia. This is what I call the fear of using the word "said" in fanfic, and instead insisting on using loads of different words; for example, growled, muttered, expostulated, yelled, shouted. Said is only bad if you're using it constantly, but most of the time, a character really is just saying something, not yelling, muttering or shouting. It doesn't seem like a big thing, but it really does annoy me.

10. Bitchery about criticism. This isn't so much a rant on fanfic itself, but the way that the authors react to constructive criticism. Due to the fact that so many authors drop the dummy when given polite, but negative reviews of their fanfic, I've pretty much stopped leaving reviews unless I'm sure that the author isn't going to cyber screech, "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN DON'T READ IT!" or "It's fanFICTION so I can do what I like!" Actually, no you can't; if it's noncanon, such as having a Mary Sue who's Harry's sister, a much cleverer witch than Hermione, beats Harry playing Quidditch and is in love with Sirius Black for no reason whatsoever, then you're abusing canon in a horrible way and you should either quit it right now, or change all the names and write original fiction. I'll go further; if you're too immature to accept constructive criticism, then you might as well give up any dreams of getting your work published, as any publisher is going to criticise your work far worse than the casual reviewer ever could.

[AdminAssistant]

Here's my biggest annoyance with fanfic - when the 'real' writers don't go along with their ideas and then the fanfic writers throw fits. (I'm not saying fanfic writers aren't 'real' writers, just trying to distinguish).

Case in point: NCIS. I lurves me some NCIS. It's a great show with wonderful character development, the best dialogue on television, and an excellent cast. The new exec. producer Shane Brennan is doing wonders with the show - the plots and the character arcs. One of the things I like the most about the show is that the characters aren't all sleeping with each other!! And yet, these Tiva writers constantly whine "When are Tony and Ziva going to get together?!?!" The Tiva's are the most prevalent but there's also McAbby (McGee & Abby). And, Kate is dead. Been dead for four seasons now. Not coming back. So SHUSH!

[Amethyst Hunter]

I would also add "rape of characters" to that list. No, not as in actual rape, I mean the kind of brutalization that turns the character completely unrecognizable from their actual depicted persona. I write fic (PM me if you wanna know which fandom) and I can't tell you how much it makes my eyes bleed whenever I come across a fic that has a certain character just completely OC. I suppose some of his traits could be misconstrued as making him into the OC-type, but those traits aren't wholly who he is and he is actually very far from being the helpless passive type.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I covered that in "Canon is key"; I agree with what you're saying. I like to read slash, but I absolutely loath people who write male characters as being either pathetic little girls, or brutal rapists due to the fact that they have no idea about gay relationships at all. I read once a horrible slashfic which depicted Legolas as a whimpering little girl with Glorfindel as his rapist. Blah... and it was mpreg too, which I didn't mention, but I also hate; not the genre as such, but the completely crap way it's handled by most fanfic authors. Men do not get pregnant, and don't crap babies out their rectums. If you must have a man getting pregnant, at least have a believable reason why he did; such as being magicked into a girl. XD

[Shards]

Let me just point out my amusement at the fact that your example of a believable reason for a man to get pregnant included the word 'magic.' I agree it's better than letting it go as if it's normal, but, still...

And BTW, Legolas is already a sniveling little girl. He's kinda been the man-bitch of the series since he was introduced, and that's coming from someone who learned to read on the original Tolkein books.

[Lace Neil Singer]

It was just faceciousness; I'm surprised youy didn't see that. And yes, that's probably spelt wrong.

Now I dislike Legolas extremely, however that's no reason for loads of 13 year old girls to either paint him as a rape victim or as the betrothed to their Mary Sue. Not even Saruman deserves that fate worse than death. O_o

[DrT]

I personnaly cannot stand Mary Sues, or as I call them the 'Zeros' (read Hero, with a z), with the flawlessness and incapacity to ever lose.

However I can understand a teenager using them, as it's their ways of dreaming about themselves. the realistic and flawed side usually comes around the end of puberty (this is a general statement, exceptions are very much possible). What I don't get is real authors using them and becoming famous for them (which is why I can't stand Moorcook or Salvatore, as their heros will never die or lose, and have some flaws that are rapidly forgotten or taken care of my a mythical object).

[Boozy]

I'm fascinated by this. Until fairly recently, I didn't know that fan-fiction was written about anything other than Star Trek.

I'm assuming that it's the self-publication of bad fanfiction that bothers you all, as opposed to its very existence. I'll bet there are a hundred 13 year-old girls writing stories in which they marry Harry Potter for every one that actually posts her stuff on the internet. That seems like a fairly normal pre-teen girl activity, not much different than keeping a diary.

[DrT]

Don't limit this to girls, I'm pretty sure many a teen age boy writes sotries about his lovelife and (insert name of famous female character here)

I think one needs to focus on the main benefit: they're fucking WRITING shit ! At a time when people complain about the lack of alphabetisation, kids writing stuff and actually manipulating the english langage (or any langage) for anything else than internet chat is awsome.
I know my writing taugh me a lot about the langage and the ways to use it. Yeah it sucked, hence it's absence of the net ;) but stil it got my typing skills up and I became more careful abotu my use of the langage (in conversations as well) and my speech became more elaborated and pleasant to the hear.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Well, as a slight defense to the unfinished fic, I have mine that's had a couple of long hiatuses, because I hit the brick wall of writer's block. Trust me, it drives me just as nuts as it does my readers. I WANT to get to the good stuff, believe me!

Mine would probably be the people who say something about the battle scenes I write (wrestling fic). I write in the sense that what happens in the ring is real and the characters are who they are on TV, etc. So as nonsensical as it would be in real life, in wrestle-verse, Rey Mysterio WOULD do a backflip off a car roof during a street fight, or Chris Jericho would try to catch someone's foot and bend them in half like a pretzel. TRUST ME, I know how a real fight would work. But that's not the world we're playing in right now.

Or the readers who automatically assume that ANY original character is a Mary Sue. The story I'm working on now is set in a hospital, so naturally there's going to be some unfamiliar doctors, nurses, etc., wandering around. THEY AREN'T SUES. For God's sakes, the main nurse is a portly little old grandmother with bifocals!

Even in the one story where me and a couple of friends inserted ourselves as characters, we kept ourselves realistic. We basically looked like ourselves, had certain magical powers, yes, but by that point, so did half of the wrestler characters, got into fights and arguments with the main characters, etc. Even my insert, who proved herself able to physically hang with the men, lost a couple of battles against other women who were smaller and weaker by getting handily outsmarted. You know...FLAWS. Bad things happening, etc. So just because you see some new face does not automatically mean OMG SUE!!!1!

[Lace Neil Singer]

Yeah, but I'm betting you didn't insert yourself in as a mystical yet beautiful wrestler called a ridiculously long name and with magic, speshul powers who had every male wrestler swooning at your feet! XD In fact, I see you more as the AntiSue who whips the butt of the Sue. XD

As for writing and teens, there are a lot of teens who write; I used to write poetry and short stories and still do when the muse hits; however, I never put any of it online til I have exhaustively gone thru it and asked other people to read it to make sure it doesn't suck arse. Also, sit down and take a deep breath; NOT ALL BADFIC IS WRITTEN BY TEENS. Honestly. There are some fic writers who don't go thru the Sue/badfic stage and out the other side, but carry on writing badfic, including some people who write some really disturbing rapefic and abusefic that makes me think of serial killers in the making, especially if it's about kids' books or TV. A lot of badfic writers are adults, and that to me can't be forgiven as it can be if it's a 12 year old girl.

Also, check my last rant; if you burst a blood vessel even at the sight of a well thought out piece of constructive criticism and act as tho the reviewer has just kicked your puppy, then don't put your writing online. And no, I don't mean flames like "ur storie sux ars u dickhed!1!!!", I mean proper concrit that actually tells the person what they're doing right as well as wrong, just as an English teacher or publisher would. If you're a teen and writing, you might as well do it right; I don't buy the whole "omg at least they're writing stuff!" cuz I believe if you want to do something, you should do it properly. When I went horse riding, I worked hard at it; I could just as easily have leant back, held on by the reins and booted my horse in the ribs, but I didn't cuz I didn't just see it as "well, at least I'm out there in the fresh air!"

Sorry to go on. But the fanfic that provoked the rant was seriously bad. o.o Oh yeah, and written by an adult.

[McDreidel09]

I remember writing a Lord of the Rings fanfic when I was like...13. It had an original character and Boromir. I admit it was a rape story, but I had my reasons. I was hoping to make people aware of rape happening anywhere, even though I used beloved characters. Boromir is my favorite LotR character. I figured that if tv ads could use celebrities that I knew to raise awareness for issues, I wanted to do that also, using characters of a movie that came out and books that were being read again. I understood that Boromir was nothing like that. He was a good man, who displayed human weakness for the One Ring (which is why I absolutely adore him). I even explained that and got so many flames for using him that way.

[DrT]

If you're a teen and writing, you might as well do it right; I don't buy the whole "omg at least they're writing stuff!" cuz I believe if you want to do something, you should do it properly. When I went horse riding, I worked hard at it; I could just as easily have leant back, held on by the reins and booted my horse in the ribs, but I didn't cuz I didn't just see it as "well, at least I'm out there in the fresh air!"

Well, I will agree that not all writing is good, and the 'at least he's writting' doesn't excuse bad work.
But then again, I'll give them a cookie for writing. If they're applying themselves hard; they'll get more. At least they're trying. It's a tad harder than just getting on a horse: you won't find a horse that will write a story for you.

Regarding the : if it's bad, don't put it out on the net; frankly it's too easy to publish stuff on the net these days. Anybody will have a blog and stuff, or any website will publish your crap. Too easy means that the old process through which you had to go before (ie: being reviewed by an editor, even for the local fanzine) is gone, and that was before anything else a good crap filter.

So yeah: there's more crappy stuff. The payback is that there's also excellent stuff that is written by people who wouldn't have had a clue as to how to publish their work, and would have deprived us of very neat talent.

Lastly: don't you have a way to tell whether the story is crap by only reading the first few lines ? I'm sure you do.

[Boozy]

I don't think anyone expects that young teenagers will be great writers, but the only way they'll improve is to accept constructive criticism. I think that's what Lace is saying.

[DrT]

Oh, I got that part and I agree. I'm simply trying to underline the fact that the writing activity in itself is a good thing.

Acceptance of constructive criticism is tough, particularly for a teenager. When one see how 'intellectuals' take such criticism....

[Lace Neil Singer]

I don't think anyone expects that young teenagers will be great writers, but the only way they'll improve is to accept constructive criticism. I think that's what Lace is saying.

This. And I also said that adults are writing the worst badfic; while you can forgive, in a way, a 13 year old girl writing about her Mary Sue falling in lurve with Harry Potter, when it's a 33 year old woman who should know better writing the same story, then it's pretty bad. O_o As for accepting CC, it's really the only way if you're going to put anything you've written, drawn or programmed out in public.

I certainly don't expect people to just accept nasty, rude flaming, but if someone is just politely pointing out the flaws in your writing, then giving them a mouthful of abuse is not the way to go about it. Yes, it's hard to accept CC; when I first started drawing, as a personal example, my dad pointed out scale problems in the animals I drew and told me I should at least try and shade. I could have screamed back at him and told him to mind his own business, or I could have bitten my tongue and tried to do as he said. I chose the latter; and my art improved. Even if my tongue did end up resembling a doggy chew... -__- :D

[MystyGlyttyr]

I certainly don't expect people to just accept nasty, rude flaming, but if someone is just politely pointing out the flaws in your writing, then giving them a mouthful of abuse is not the way to go about it. Yes, it's hard to accept CC; when I first started drawing, as a personal example, my dad pointed out scale problems in the animals I drew and told me I should at least try and shade. I could have screamed back at him and told him to mind his own business, or I could have bitten my tongue and tried to do as he said. I chose the latter; and my art improved. Even if my tongue did end up resembling a doggy chew... -__- :D

Except then you have people like MY dad, who will "constructively" criticize your work no matter HOW good it is, no matter how much you try to do it the way they say you should, regardless of how careful you are, etc. And eventually you figure out they're just trying to wear you down to the point where you'll give up altogether and do something else...i.e., give up on writing and art and move into the "better" field of sciences and math.

That might just be me, though. :p It did work, though, as I finally gave up on the idea of being an artist. Now he gets the pro wrestler thing to deal with. :D

[Shards]

Here's my biggest annoyance with fanfic - when the 'real' writers don't go along with their ideas and then the fanfic writers throw fits. (I'm not saying fanfic writers aren't 'real' writers, just trying to distinguish).

Case in point: NCIS. I lurves me some NCIS. It's a great show with wonderful character development, the best dialogue on television, and an excellent cast. The new exec. producer Shane Brennan is doing wonders with the show - the plots and the character arcs. One of the things I like the most about the show is that the characters aren't all sleeping with each other!! And yet, these Tiva writers constantly whine "When are Tony and Ziva going to get together?!?!" The Tiva's are the most prevalent but there's also McAbby (McGee & Abby). And, Kate is dead. Been dead for four seasons now. Not coming back. So SHUSH!

Well, to be fair, and admittedly I'm not as far as you are into NCIS, but McAbby was a cannon pairing for the entire first and second season, and is hinted at as far as I've gotten in the third.

Also, Both with Kate and Ziva, Tony has had far more chemistry and natural 'pairing potential' than many, I would even argue most, cannon pairings in more mainstream shows of NCIS's kind. (Case in point, CSI's Grissom and Sidle had nowhere near the natural relationship Tony has with either girl).

Just playing Devil's Advocate.

[AdminAssistant]

Well, to be fair, and admittedly I'm not as far as you are into NCIS, but McAbby was a cannon pairing for the entire first and second season, and is hinted at as far as I've gotten in the third.

Only the first season, really. Once McGee became a Probationary Special Agent on Gibbs' team in Season 2, the whole 'McAbby' thing kind of fell apart. After all Rule #12 (I think) is "Never date a co-worker". Yes, they're very close friends, but they aren't a couple.

Tony, well, Tony IS charisma and charm, in a cute little package. (Grissom, on the other hand, plays with bugs. EW). But, I think they've made it VERY clear through Seasons 5 and 6 that Tiva is. not. happening. And, personally, I think Michael Weatherly will be leaving the series pretty soon. They just aren't doing enough with Tony right now - there's been virtually no development since the whole 'Jeanne' thing in Season 4 (I won't spoil it for you).

ETA: I always thought Kate had more chemistry with Gibbs than with Tony. Tony and Kate had more of a brother/sister relationship, to me.

[Shards]

ETA: I always thought Kate had more chemistry with Gibbs than with Tony. Tony and Kate had more of a brother/sister relationship, to me.


And how would you describe Ron/Hermione from HP?



As far as your idea that Tony will be leaving, I haven't seen as far as you have, but I doubt it. Tony may not develop, but in some characters, that's OK. In a realistic show, people are shown as people, not as subjects purely for our amusement, and the fact is, some people change, however, some do not. Some men never grow up, some men were never immature to begin with, and some people do develop over time. I have relatives in their 50s who still act like Tony does, and the fact is, he's a lovable character with a heavy following of fans, so I highly doubt he'll be moving on.

Also, in season 3, Ducky has made more than one comparisons between Tony and young Gibbs, which leads me to suspect that he's intended to be there until the series ends, as the next-in-line to the Gibbs position.

Then again, I haven't seen the recent episodes, or the 'new direction' you refer to when talking about their new director, so for all I know he's a development snob who will decide that a nice simple entertaining character isn't worth keeping if he doesn't come out with a new deepest darkest secret that OMG changes his entire personality every week, in which case, yes, DeNozzo will be bowing out, because I don't see him as the type of person to change in any way except for the vast jump in responsibility that I foresee when he takes over Gibbs' chair.

Just my $0.02

[Dreamstalker]

Back when I first started what is now known as the Fanfic From Hell (epic length, and somehow has resisted completion for 3 years now) as well as other short stuff that was mercifully lost in a hard drive failure, my character was a Mary Sue. Yes, I admit it. Although I respected canon too much to even attempt some of the violations I saw in my fandom, so I suppose my Sue wasn't near as horrendous as she could have been..

The way I fixed that was to use the same character in RPG where there were creation rules (character must have some personality flaws, certain abilities were absolutely off-limits for rookies, etc). Yeah, she died a couple times in various stupid ways, but the gaming-use route was a great way to refine things.

The friend who was my coauthor for a while on the aforementioned fic...holy Hastur was her character awful. The rest of us in the game made it a mission to see if we could get her to off herself either though direct action or snowballing stupidity. Name was Goldilocks to boot.
(Case in point, CSI's Grissom and Sidle had nowhere near the natural relationship Tony has with either girl).

Call me weird, but I thought that Grissom and Lady Heather had chemistry and would have liked to see that go somewhere sooner.

[depechemodefan]

HI! first time posting in fratching.

Anyway, there are fics that mix different shows/movies/books that can be pretty bad. A Buffytvs/HP fanfic can make sense, since both worlds deal with magic. It depends on the writer. There are two fics I've read that shipped Buffy and Harry. One was pretty good; Buffy wakes up and can't remember having sex with Harry. Another fic has Buffy and the slayers running a trucking company where the girls drive the big rigs and Buffy finds Harry hitchhikcing. Then the chemistry is off.

But then there is Buffy and Spike in Lord of the Rings. And not much happen; didn't care much for it.

Then there was this fanfic where Buffy ends up in a galaxy Far Far Away (Season 3 Buffy in TPM) where Buffy is pretty much a Mary Sue in the fic. She's smarter than Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and she saves Qui-Gon from Darth Maul (I forget if she kills Darth Maul). I love BtVS, Star Wars (even the prequals) and Spike, so I don't hate this fic, but a more objective person might have howeled in disgust.

So fanfics that mix characters and make some/one char. into a Mary Sue isn't good. Or if the two (some fics have up to a dozen) diff. shows/movies/books shouldn't be mixed together because they have nothing in common or have no chemistry.

Another pet peeve is char. bashing. I might not like Riley (again, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) but I don't want him to be a manipulative thug who beats up Buffy and tells her she can't be a Slayer.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Another pet peeve is char. bashing. I might not like Riley (again, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) but I don't want him to be a manipulative thug who beats up Buffy and tells her she can't be a Slayer.

Agreed. I don't like Denethor in LOTR, however I draw the line at him being depicted as a rapist/child abuser. No no NO. -.-

[Bloodsoul]

You know, I always thought about doing a Dexter's Laboratory/Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-ohki crossover fanfic/comic. Both have red-headed, short scientists, both have blond airheads... think it could work?

Not even the Lighhawk Wings can withstand the awesome fury of the Fanciful Unicorn.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I like to check out fanfiction. I don't write it. Most of my interest in it lies in trends, styles, the frequency and patterns of new fic hitting the net based on pop culture trends, etc. Sometimes I will actually sit down and read it, if it's well written. There's a few really nice works out there I've read start to finish in various genre.

Things I won't bother with:

"Songfics".

"Storys" where the author farts out less than a hundred words and then grubs for feedback. Drabbles are fine, but dont' sit there and poot out 15 seconds worth of writing then threaten to not finish unless you get feedback. (I do a writing blog, and I know how long it takes to write a thousand words. Someone needs to get up off their ass and start writing.)

Stories with no paragraph breaks or any real sentence structure. It's not that I won't read this, it's that I CAN'T.

Authors who inappropriately pepper their writing with what I call "non words" and pop culture references. If the "voice" of the writing would talk like that, fine. Then it's not a problem. But I don't want to hear how Legolas was "majorly" in love with someone or how much the music of the elves in Lothlorian sounded like Enya. Good GRIEF.

Any story where the description starts out "Two teenage girls from our world find themselves stranded in...."

I don't much like Mary Sues, but a friend wrote some and I read them and they were good. So I'm at least open minded about them (at least when I know the person is an okay writer).

Any story with a complete lack of regard for staying even remotely in character. Why not just write an original story if you're gonna do that? I find that extremely jarring. Not offensive, just...kind of pointless.

Any fic where I even suspect that there will be underage erotic situations. No thank you.


Back in the bad old days, when I ran various games, I had people write I guess what would be considered "fanfic" about my games (my games are EXTREMELY character driven, so players, particularly female players, really got into that aspect of it). Man. That was FUN. When we were running the LARP Allout Helter, we got some of that, too. We would actually give perks for players doing that. What a rush that is to have someone writing stuff about your world!

I told the husband "Wouldn't it be fun if my story blog got so popular people started writing fanfic about it?"

Then we looked at each and the same thought hit us. And we both said "Except it would all be slash." :-DDDD

[Lace Neil Singer]

By the way, not all OCs are automatically Mary Sues. So what your friend was writing was probably an OC rather than a Sue, cuz it didn't make you sick to your stomach. I have read quite a few fanfics where there's an OC who is written so well into the storyline that it's like they were put there by the author. ^^ I have also read fics with disgusting Mary Sues that take over the entire story and ruin it. -.-

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Oh, no, it was a Mary Sue. She said, blatantly, and with a little embarassment, "I wrote myself into a fanfic." And I said, "Oh, my God, you wrote a Mary Sue." and she said "Yeah. I wrote a Mary Sue."

Fortunately, she was very much realistically herself in the story, and it was more along the lines of a simple first person account of something than it was a typical Mary Sue. It was not over the top or even terribly corny.

I didn't think it was possible to write one that didn't make a person run screaming in nausea, but apparently, it is. However, that is the exception and not the rule.

[Sylvia727]

Mary Sues don't automatically make a story bad, they're just uninteresting characters. I have both read and written stories with Sues as background characters, who pick up pieces and tie up loose ends without getting any character development. I have also read series where a Sue from the first story is revealed to have hidden flaws, and thus character development, in a later story. One example from the top of my head was a teacher/mentor figure who provided a rock for the students to grow from. Dull, flat background character. In the fifth or sixth story, she has a student she can't connect with, and her perfect world falls apart at a touch, revealing how stressed she was and how much she hid that from her students. If the author had stopped at the fourth story, she would have remained a Mary Sue.

[Shards]

People here are using different definitions of the term 'Mary Sue'.

According to many authors, a Mary Sue is an author-insertion into a pre-existing universe, in which case well-written Mary Sues are possible.

However, according to other authors, and I suspect many people in this debate, a Mary Sue is a new character who is not necessarily an author-insertion, but is undeniably overpowered and has a decidedly boring/grating/inconsistent personality. Especially when their reason to be there is paper-thin at best. In this case, a well-written Sue is not possible.

[I8DaCookie]

3. Unfinished stories. Don't be lazy; finish the bloody story you started. If you don't want to write loads of chapters, then write a oneshot or a five chapter fic. Don't start a huge epic then leave it unfinished halfway thru, especially if it's well written and everyone is going to be annoyed cuz they want to know what happened to your character in the end.

Reading this reminded me of a fanfic I wrote years ago but never finished. I was two (planned) chapters away from finishing. The reason I never did was the chapters I had written were over the period of two weeks before I left for an internship over the summer where I had no computer access and no time for anything beyond the internship. When I returned, it was time for school.

I still have all the bookmarks from my research, the saved chapters on my harddrive and the outline. Maybe I'll finish it after a five year hiatus.

[Dreamstalker]

When the ex and I were still talking (and he seemed actually interested in what I was doing), I asked him to critique my fic.

Bad idea.

Not only did he demonstrate a stunning lack of comprehension for everything fanfic and even basic laws of physics/reality (yes it's fiction and she's my character but that still does not mean a human can walk away untouched from a 5-story fall), the constructive crit boiled down to "ok, so you've got an 80% mary sue, why not go for 100%, make her over the top"

-_-

[Lace Neil Singer]

However, according to other authors, and I suspect many people in this debate, a Mary Sue is a new character who is not necessarily an author-insertion, but is undeniably overpowered and has a decidedly boring/grating/inconsistent personality. Especially when their reason to be there is paper-thin at best. In this case, a well-written Sue is not possible.

That's always been my definition. It also includes RP characters as well as fanfic ones; in my experience, a lot of newbie RPers start off with Mary Sues who are certainly not author insertations, but rather are perfect characters.

(from Wiki)

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers.

For example, if you were writing a Mary Sue into a Lord Of The Rings fanfic, your character would be Aragorn's sister, Arwen's best friend, betrothed to Legolas and also a better archer than him. She'd teach Denethor to value Faramir, save Boromir's life, volunteer to take over from Frodo as Ringbearer and also persuade Saruman to give up being evil. She'd bring Gollum back to the good side, and manage to kill an entire regiment of Orcs without even breaking a nail.

She'd also have hair like woven gold silk and eyes like limpid pools of loveliness. She'd have curves in all the right places, hair down to her butt, massive breasts, and eyes that change colour. Of course, she'd be half elven. Gandalf would adore her, and Sam would follow her around like a lost puppy. She'd have a horse named Moonlight, and own one of the elven rings. Just before Gandalf fell, she'd dive down and save him just in time... or, she'd reluctantly take over as leader afterwards. She'd manage to hurl the ring into the fires of Mount Doom without so much as getting a smudge on her perfect skin.


Ladies and Gentlemen, THAT is a Mary Sue. Be afraid, be very afraid... :eek:

[Bloodsoul]

(yes it's fiction and she's my character but that still does not mean a human can walk away untouched from a 5-story fall

Tumble
The character can fall from great heights without taking damage, move greater distances with an adjustment, or “climb” vertical surfaces with a series of bounces.

DChttp://www.rjmwhittaker.com/indent.gifTask
100http://www.rjmwhittaker.com/indent.gifIgnore falling damage.

~*~

I was a total Mary Sue'er in my youth, but now that I'm less immature than before I think I've definitely cooled off a bit on that. Think the closest I've come back to that was roleplaying the daughter to a goddess of magic and desire; didn't stop said character from getting her butt kicked by Mewtwo, though. :p

[Dreamstalker]

Had I done a precise translation of my RP character into fic, not only the rest of the fandom but my muses would probably hate me for all eternity. In RP, she was part werewolf which resulted in reflexes generally better than the humans (not perfect though; in full human "form" her sense of balance is innately a bit whacked).

Yes, my character will still try to take on Class Sevens and above by herself (and tends to get her butt roundly kicked by same, but she has somehow managed to not actually die yet).

[depechemodefan]

When a fanfic is based on a tv show or movie, I really don't like that the fanfic writer changes how the char. look like. Making a char. 6 ft tall when on the show he was 1/2 ft shorter than the char who was 6 ft tall. Or give a char. longer legs or bigger bust.

Or being contridictory in the fic, like one scene the char. is discribed as having smooth, creamy skin, and next having a sun-kissed body. Unless I'm wrong about 'creamy' not meaning 'white' or 'pale'.

Also for the x-rated ones I read, the guy is usually endowed with a 12 incher. I kind would like to think a guy with an average 6in would get another person off. Also, there are too many fics that the woman is "tight like a virgin" or tight in such a way one wonders how they guy isn't caught like in a chinese finger torture thingy. I wish char., who were virgins, wouln't act like pros. I expect some mistakes, but not experience when there is no experience. Yeah, like it's believable just from reading books a virgin guy can get his gf off in 2 min. flat once they actual start with the intercourse...oh, and she has multiples.

[Lace Neil Singer]

When a fanfic is based on a tv show or movie, I really don't like that the fanfic writer changes how the char. look like. Making a char. 6 ft tall when on the show he was 1/2 ft shorter than the char who was 6 ft tall. Or give a char. longer legs or bigger bust.

Or, in a slashfic, make the character who's designated as the uke into a pathetic woobie. -.- Apparently, X-Files slashfic is full of stories where Mulder is turned into a wussy little bitch by "authors" who obviously don't know anything about gay couples and how they react towards each other, or have sex.

Little note; unlubed anal intercourse would result in a LOT of pain. O_O However, it's amazing how many slashfic lemons feature it.

[PepperElf]

wow. very well written and i have to agree...


1 Mary Sue - only good when used for parody... and even then it usually sucks.

2 Second Person - I don't even bother trying to read those.

3 Unfinished - I'm soooo thankful for the filters at fanfiction.net. I always set that filter to "completed" ! :)

4 Proofreading / Beta. Yeah. I can take a few small spelling errors. But when it's obviously from lack of knowledge or just laziness... I usually close the fic. One of the recent ones, the plot was actually good, but once I realized the author had no idea you're suppose to put a space after a comma, I just couldn't force myself to read anymore.

Even better is when you offer polite comments on it and they chose to be offended instead of learning how to spell or use proper grammar.

5 Canon. For me that depends. Some of the pairings I like reading are anything but canon, but if the writer at least makes them as true to character as possible and makes the pairing work, then I'm happy.

If they are going to go way off character though, I always appreciate it when they use an OCC or AU notice in the summary.

6 Rapefic.
Eh not always a choice of mine, though I have read some nice recovery fics and "recovery from almost rape" fics too. Much preferred if a hero in the pairing can ride in and save the day before the fact instead of after.

7 Plagurism... For me that depends on how much. I do rather like "filler" fics where they take a scene or two from the story and add in those "what you wish had really happened" scenes / stories

8 Lemons. Yes quality is more important than quantity. If it's boring or poorly written I will end it.

But... I do think some Lemons are unrealistic. Like when the girl's a virgin and it only takes her like 2 minutes to stop hurting and continue on to full pounding intercourse? Those always make me think the author only got his/her experience from reading romance books.

9 Said. Extra points if the author uses the phrase "said he" and not just "he said".
Also... along the same lines... If say Person X is talking to person Y, it's best to try to put person Y's reactions on a different paragraph. I've seen some fics where one person was talking and the speech in the paragraph was broken up by another person's reactions... so at first glance it seemed like the other person was talking. Confusion is not good in fanfics.

10. Bitchery about criticism.
OMG YES. I had one author throw a bitch fit at me and delete my comments once because I wasn't glorifying her... Hell she DID say "Rants welcome" on page one of the fic... How was I suppose to know she'd pull a PMS act when I pointed out that the self-proclaimed Harry Potter expert couldn't even spell Gryffindor correctly.

Now, a tag of "if you don't like it don't read it"... I don't mind that being used, as long as it's in regards to the pairing. I've read some odd pairings and... yeah, if you find that paring offensive then don't read the fic. But only for that case.

--------
Fans throwing fits... Yeah. Even J K Rowling said she knew some people would be very upset when she did her final pairings of Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, and Remus/Tonks. And that she was offended by the fics pairing up any of the teachers with students


And true... sometimes people take characters way too far out of canon. I've read waaay too many HP fanfics where the author decided Ron would try to force himself (or even try to rape) Hermione, or jsut be a total prat should she end up paired with someone else. I mean sure he can be a git sometimes but... I never saw him as a rapist.


And OOOO I love Crossover fics - If they're well written.
I found one with Wormtail and Wormtoung meeting up and they went right into slash with barely a hello. ... so yeah, pretty much STUPID.

But when it's good it works soooo well.

For example... Highlander / MacGyver. (friends only). I read a whole series of those and was like OMG this is awesome. Mac and Mac as best friends! (I forget which one got to be "Mac" but the author was kind and made it obvious who was who)

Xmen / Star Trek - actually this wasn't a fanfic. It was an actual Star Trek Novel which means... by Star Trek's rules, if it's officially published it's canon so...Yeah X-men exist in Star Trek now! LOL

Found a Tin Man / Firefly one too... unfinished tho (pout) but it was kinda interesting. Post movie tho so no Wash (cry).

[I8DaCookie]

Xmen / Star Trek - actually this wasn't a fanfic. It was an actual Star Trek Novel which means... by Star Trek's rules, if it's officially published it's canon so...Yeah X-men exist in Star Trek now! LOL.


Actually, none of the books are canon except (maybe) for the official technical books and encyclopedias.

It's only canon if it's in the live action tv shows and movies. Yes, this means that the Animated series is non-canon, though there are a few things that were carried over from it.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Xmen / Star Trek - actually this wasn't a fanfic. It was an actual Star Trek Novel which means... by Star Trek's rules, if it's officially published it's canon so...Yeah X-men exist in Star Trek now! LOL


I have one of those books at home on my shelf next to all my wrestling books. A Nerd I Be. And from the context, it appears to be a SEQUEL (as the characters seem to be familiar with each other), which means there's at least one more out there. I didn't expect some of the "pairings" (not necessarily slashy ones), but Wolverine and Worf pairing up in the holodeck was pretty damn awesome.

[PepperElf]

that's the one... i don't think they ever published the one that came before it.

and what, books aren't canon? noooooooo.
tho it would be kinda hard to put both professor x and picard in a movie... <snort!>

[Lace Neil Singer]

Another thing that bugs me is the whole "Sue dies and comes back to life" thing. -.- I once read this HP badfic that had a Mary Sue that not only usurped Ginny completely, but she also sacrificed her life to save Harry's.

*pause so everyone can vomit*

She later woke up in her coffin at her funeral. Obviously, this author didn't bother to research what actually happens in a case of death, especially a death where the cause is unknown (ie, by Avada Kedavra).

I am not a doctor or undertaker, nor do I play one on TV, so if any of this is inaccurate, sorry.

Autopsies. The top of the skull is sawn off and the brain removed. The body is cut from throat to pubis and organs are removed. Blood and tissue is removed to test for poison and drugs. The body is gone over inch by inch to determine a cause of death.

Embalming. Not just the actual process, but the skull is stuffed with sawdust to stop it bobbling around in the coffin, and the mouth is sew up to stop it slackly gaping open. The body orifices are blocked up. The organs are put back, but not in the right places.


Still think your Sue can just come back to life at her funeral, deluded author? :rolleyes:

[Dreamstalker]

Heh. A coauthor that I had for a short while for my Ghostbusters epic (this was the same silly girl whose RPG character was the quintessential Mary Sue...by the name of Goldilocks, no less) would get mad every time I would accurately describe various injuries. "But $character CAN'T get hurt! [after an incident involving nothing more serious than a broken ankle] You can't hurt any of the main characters, you're the author!"

So I let her rewrite a copy wherein nobody even gets a scratch (dealing with Great Old Ones, can we see the problem here?) and submit it for c&c after I duly warned the rest of the list in private channels that I had nothing to do with it other than letting her see how ridiculous the idea was.

Idea was for her to learn. Did it happen? No. In fact she proceeded to flame almost everyone else who tried to explain and actually help her.

[PepperElf]

You can't hurt any of the main characters
this is why real authors get money. cos they're not afraid to hurt their characters!

Better yet, I'd love to challenge the Mary-Sue authors to pull an Asimov...
meaning, full permission to put themselves into the story, BUT - and here's where the challenge comes in -
- Must describe self accurately without any self-praise. Bonus points for being negative.
- CANNOT be the hero. In fact the Hero might find you annoying.
- More bonus points if any main character dislikes or hates you.


somehow i doubt many mary-sues would ... survive. :D

[Lace Neil Singer]

Heh, if I was put into most of my fave fandoms, I expect the main characters would hate me. XD For example, I would definitely not get on with Harry Potter; I'd probably end up whacking him one cuz he really got on my nerves in OOTP. XD

[Dreamstalker]

Better yet, I'd love to challenge the Mary-Sue authors to pull an Asimov...
meaning, full permission to put themselves into the story, BUT - and here's where the challenge comes in -
- Must describe self accurately without any self-praise. Bonus points for being negative.
My coauthor would fail instantly, then. Unfortunately I no longer have copies from when she was actively helping, but it is quite a hoot to read her character description. It wouldn't be completely out of place in a Harlequin book..frightening, that. My character, on the other hand, is almost too normal by comparison (I confess she didn't start out that way, but I'm not afraid of criticism and I lean very fast).

- More bonus points if any main character dislikes or hates you.
Even the muses didn't want to deal with her. A typical muse-author exchange (or typical list-response to any of my muses complaining) was "What did $coauthor do now?"

It became a game of sorts among the GMs...how long can we set her up to be beat on before she notices. Getting out of that situation would be solely at the GM's discretion (raw physical or mental ability=yes, any cop-out involving magic=absolutely not).

The game lasted longer than the group, so...no, she never noticed that Goldilocks was always the guinea pig/demon-bait.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I remember once in an RP, this noob not only butted right into the middle of it without even bothering to check whether it was still open to new players (it wasn't, it was over 100 pages long) but posted a disgusting Mary Sue character that was the Princess of all Vampires, immune to wood and sunlight, breathtakingly beautiful with curves in all the right places, and able to turn her fangs into straight human teeth. :rolleyes:

I and the other players had the mod delete her post and tell her to read the rules. She then tried to join another RP, with the same disgusting Mary Sue, and was simultanously yelled at by about five people. XD This time, she got the hint.

[depechemodefan]

4 Proofreading / Beta. Yeah. I can take a few small spelling errors.

Oh, I find a lot of fics that have the char. "shutter" instead of "shudder". I know people rely on spellcheck, but the rest of the fic has the words spelled right, except for this one word.

Speaking of canon, if anyone watched Buffy, this short fic is about how some fanfics kind of go to stupid land (Fanon) when the writer writes Buffy. It's by st._salierihttp://st-salieri.livejournal.com/123302.html It's about Buffy and Spike, a little x-rated.

[Dreamstalker]

Fanon isn't all stupid-land if researched/done correctly. Key word there is "correctly".

Nothing ticks me off more than a fanfic using the above to throw actual canon out the window...or if there is an established fanon timeline, contradicting choice bits because the author doesn't like them. Don't like them? Don't write anything referencing said sections.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Fanon isn't all stupid-land if researched/done correctly. Key word there is "correctly".

Nothing ticks me off more than a fanfic using the above to throw actual canon out the window...or if there is an established fanon timeline, contradicting choice bits because the author doesn't like them. Don't like them? Don't write anything referencing said sections.
Same goes for a character you dislike; especially if the only reason why you dislike them is cuz you want your self insert Mary Sue to get off with their love interest. -.- Like all the Suethors who cut Arwen out of LOTR as if she didn't exist in order that their character Rowanna Mistick Angle Fae can jump Aragorn's bones. Or worse; in slash stories, make Arwen into a vicious bitch from hell so as to put Aragon and Pregolas together. So called cuz in every effing Aragorn/Legolas slash story I've seen, he is always Aragorn's bitch and usually ends up as an mpreg. -.-

Note: I like slash, I just like male characters to you know, stay in character. I don't like Leggy as a character; however, I know damn well he's not a whimpering little uke woobie, so there's no need to reinvent him as one just so a Suethor can write about her fantasy of seeing Leggy boned by Aragorn. [/rant]

[Dreamstalker]

Most slash in my chosen fandom is fairly well-done, and there's the occasional plotline that necessitates some kind of personality change. The majority of times, that is well-justified and I have no problem with it. It's the authors that totally ignore established characterization over and over again I can't stand.

One thing my list will not tolerate is RPS. Among other reasons, since a major film studio acquired the property a lot of fansites/lists either are on their legal radar or are worried about same.

[depechemodefan]

Fanon isn't all stupid-land if researched/done correctly. Key word there is "correctly". I was referring to that one fic. :)

I was reading this Buffy/TPM cross-over, and unfortunately Buffy becomes a Mary Sue. She's smarter, stronger (she breaks a lightsaber in half-granted, we never see a Jedi break one in half, and a Jedi probably can do it without breaking a sweat, in this case it's suppose to make her look stronger), more intuned with the force then the Jedi (well, she can tell Palpatine is evil). Acutally, I kind of like the fic, but I can see some Star Wars fans hating it. I like cross-overs, just not when the author makes one of the canon char. into a Mary Sue.

[Lace Neil Singer]

One Sue bashing site calls fanfic Sues that are supposedly canon characters "Qanonreip". XD I've seen fics where Hermione is changed into a sex crazy bitch from hell; now, that's frightening. O.o

[Dreamstalker]

I'm now the owner of at least three other author-created characters who abandoned their creators due to hideously bad attempts at het/slashfics using said characters. Initially, the blatant self-insertion attempts were so bad it was funny but the Suethors in question took any and all criticism as a call to keep writing.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I once left a well thought out post on someone's terrible slashfic; the story itself had promise, as a story, but it was badly written and the characters were mere shadows of their former selves. The author did not respond at first, but her fanclub were bashing like no-one's business. All "How dare you bash Suethor X?! She's a lovely person and you're hurting her feelings!" right up to "You're just jealous! I'd like to see you write better!" Eventually, Suethor X came on and immediately showed herself to be reasonable; her fanclub retreated, abashed, as she took on board the CC and said she'd work on the story a bit more.

Now, however, I don't bother getting involved in flame wars with Suethors and their fan clubs; I just leave the following link if they get nasty: http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:For_Other_People

[IDrinkaRum]

that's the one... i don't think they ever published the one that came before it.

and what, books aren't canon? noooooooo.
tho it would be kinda hard to put both professor x and picard in a movie... <snort!>

I too have that X-Men/Star Trek book. :D Great minds think a like! LOL.

However, I have to disagree with the "Books aren't Canon" philosophy as the Star Trek books William Shatner put out after the movie Generations, where Kirk was killed, are considered canon. If you've read those books, you'll know that Kirk never died at the end of the Generations, just got sent somewhere else and he finds his one true love, a Romulan/Klingon woman who lived on a world that was populated by such hybrids. Those are books are canon along with the other books.

Maybe there's a book canon and a show/movie canon, but I'm not sure.

[Seshat]

Well, as a slight defense to the unfinished fic, I have mine that's had a couple of long hiatuses, because I hit the brick wall of writer's block. Trust me, it drives me just as nuts as it does my readers. I WANT to get to the good stuff, believe me!


Writer's block is frequently a signal that your subconscious knows there's something wrong with what you're planning to write next; or some better way the story could go.

Sit down and re-do your plotting. You may find that the block goes away entirely once you have.


[color=pink]this is why real authors get money. cos they're not afraid to hurt their characters!


I recently watched couple of seasons of Buffy in a 'sick in bed' Buffy-marathon. By the end of it, I was amusing myself before each episode by thinking 'what' s the absolute worst thing Whedon can do to the characters right now?'

Usually, within two episodes, that absolute worst thing would happen.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Writer's block is frequently a signal that your subconscious knows there's something wrong with what you're planning to write next; or some better way the story could go.

Sit down and re-do your plotting. You may find that the block goes away entirely once you have.

Oh, I know exactly what's the problem with what's going to happen next. The problem is vital to the story. I just can't make it flow. See, for my readers, this is critical development and clues hinting at a climax they don't know about yet. For me, it's the boring part until I get to the really fun-to-write section with the big reveal. So, I'm really trying to keep it from SOUNDING like I'm bored while I'm writing it. Which is more difficult than it sounds, apparently.

[Dreamstalker]

My problem is that I can visualize scenes too well (think filmshoot-style) and then get myself in a pickle because I can't rectify the script-vs-prose writing styles well enough. Way back when I first figured this out, I tried to break a few scenes out and write them solely in script form, but that failed because I wasn't able to manage the level of detail the prose-style demanded >_<

This can be worked around most times, but when it does conflict...eeek.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Another rant; this is something I just need to rant about. XD

Prince/ss Of All Vampires.

It's an impossibility, for the following reasons:

1. There is no way that any such figurehead could possibly exist in any shape or form. Especially since that in most Suefics it tends to be an inherited role. Anyone proclaiming themselves in this way would just open themselves up to assassination, not just by vampire hunters, but also by other vampires. There is just no way that anyone could be the ruler over all vampires. Take the world of humans; we don't have a Prince/ss Of All Humans, do we? Even in the smallest country ever, not everyone automatically agrees with the person who runs it. So, therefore, the chances of every single vampire, no matter how powerful, accepting the dominion of a single figurehead, are so small as to be laughable.

2. There is no mention of one in vampire canon, either traditional or in books. Nearest thing to it is Akasha, but she firstly didn't claim dominion over all vampires in the entire world, and secondly was not a whiny, emo, teenage bratling. Whether vampires in books have vast clans, separate families, made vampires and born vampires, or even *shudders* sparkly Meyerpires, there is no mention of a whinging bratchild being ruler over all. Even if one did turn up, see #1.

3. The concept only usually comes up as either an excuse for the Suethor to put her loathsome Mary Sue self insert with the vampire character of her choice, or to put her into a canon world that either has no mention of vampires or only a token mention and to explain her presence. It doesn't work. It never will.


Yes, I do have a personal reason to loath this idea; once in an RP that was progressing nicely, this total noob butted in and proclaimed herself Princess Of All Vampires. -.- She was soon ejected from said RP, but it really hacked me and the other players off at the time.

[Dreamstalker]

I had someone in RP (same whiny silly girl I've mentioned earlier) claim that I was trying to champion werewolf society, destroy all humans, and become the Werewolf Queen...

Hey sparky, my character is an outcast because she is not a "true werewolf" according to the clan leaders in New York State at the time (higher-than-typical percentage of human blood and she had allowed a human to help her).

[Lace Neil Singer]

This particular user showed up again in a Resident Evil RP as a witch with rainbow coloured eyes. -.- Bitch fucking PLEASE. Do witches of any description belong in Resident Evil? I think not. I believe that everyone was so sick of her by that time, that the next person to post wrote "And the witch was immediately chomped to death by a stray zombie that appeared from nowhere." XD

I had some noob whine about one of my vampire characters; he's virtually indestructable cuz of killing demons, and she was saying he seemed too perfect. Well, he would be in HER hands; in mine, he's a whiny, irritating misogynist with a height complex who doesn't get on with anyone. I doubt I would get on with him either, to be honest, if he was real. XD I'd be seriously tempted to give him a resounding smack around the head.

I've found that a lot of Suethors throw out those accusations, probably in an attempt to divert attention away from their own vapid creation.

[Dreamstalker]

I believe that everyone was so sick of her by that time, that the next person to post wrote "And the witch was immediately chomped to death by a stray zombie that appeared from nowhere." XD
I love Sues in RP...the GM gets a chance to get creative, other players get something to beat on that generally doesn't want to die (we had one Sue-resurrection attempt that was thwarted by a keen GM), and most times the player is too clueless to know what's being done. The ones that do learn are few, in my experience.

I had some noob whine about one of my vampire characters; he's virtually indestructable cuz of killing demons, and she was saying he seemed too perfect.

I've found that a lot of Suethors throw out those accusations, probably in an attempt to divert attention away from their own vapid creation.
No doubt. The coauthor from hell would regularly throw that out...when in fact I was making my character more normal. I think she was just miffed at the fact that I don't subscribe to the "author as god" theory or at least not in the same way she did. Yes, I have the ability to have everyone not get beat up, not wanting to exercise that power doesn't equate with "mean". If I need to resort to a minor miracle, I will at least try to make it make sense.

Everyone wanted to see what it would take for her character to crack. For the record, even a direct encounter with Hastur that almost killed everyone else did nothing O_o (of course she saved the day, next session had her get eaten by a shoggoth which everyone else managed to avoid)

[Lace Neil Singer]

Sounds hilarious. XD

One thing that said noob seemed to miss was that my character might not be able to die, but he can feel pain. O.o As in, he could be stabbed with wood and feel the pain, and pass out, but would eventually heal from it. Everyone would enjoy the break, of course, from his irritatingly whiny and annoying presence.

I've also read fanfic where an author posts notes within the story that defend her Mary Sue, usually denying that it is a Sue but also basically saying "Fukk you if u don't like Fenella Mystick Angle Luesilla Lyawna Belle!!1!!1 She is not a Sue!!1!" As if repeating something that is blatently untrue makes it somehow true. -.-

[Dreamstalker]

Sounds hilarious. XD
Oh, it was. The obviousness of the setup made it even better (how can you not see a giant seething mass of tentacles that is pretty much the only thing in the area?). We think she was in a "if I ignore it it's not actually there" phase...same for her writing.

Did I post a link to the Mary Sue Litmus Test?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Don't think so; the original version, right? There's a few variations around now. XD

[Dreamstalker]

I couldn't find the original-original (ST:TOS started it IIRC), but here's the universal test I have.

http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm (using this one, my character score is 12)

The Ghostbusters-specific one I used to use seems to have gone away (it was hosted on AOL Hometown, and was not migrated before the shutdown).

[Lace Neil Singer]

Mine got 16; he has some tendencies, such as angsty past, orphaned, saw his parents die; but apparently that gets cancelled out by him being short, irritating, unlikeable and someone who I want to slap. XD

There's a good HP one out there, I'll look it up sometime.

[Dreamstalker]

Yeah, mine tends to score higher on the fandom-specific test, but a couple of points are near-unavoidable given the plot. That's easy to change (now I just need to figure out how to do it without screwing up any other continuity--this thing is so massive I don't want to tear it all down if that can be avoided).

[Lace Neil Singer]

The fact is, you can't make an original character have a completely normal, bland past; they might not be a Sue, but they'd be boring as hell. XD The only way forward is to balance the character; if they have one aspect, for example, angsty past, to give them average looks and an unpleasant personality. It's only when a character has angsty past, perfect personality, body, is good at everything and breathtakingly beautiful that they're obviously a sickmaking Mary Sue and should be burned at the stake. O_o

[Dreamstalker]

I recall running across a few characters like that in regular fiction...all the plot hooks in the world will not save excessively boring characters.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Yeah; you have to actually care about the characters to want to know what happens to them.

Another pet hate; mpreg. I loath it when badfic writers drag it in just as a plot device, and do no work to make it sound convincing. For example, making a birth canal and womb magically appear. Men don't have a womb or birth canal. They also can not carry a fetus in their colon or crap a baby out; it's not possible. For one thing, the colon would rupture. For another, the fetus would drown in crap. Only believable mpreg I've ever seen have been Loki from Norse myth (shapeshifter becoming a female with a womb and vagina) and Dave Lister from Red Dwarf (female oriantated universe, males give birth there, universe physical law applies, Caesarian birth).

I have also seen some terrible mpreg; like one where Aragorn was apparently in the battle at Helm's Deep while eight months pregnant. No fucking way can anyone in that state fight. -.-

[Seshat]

The fact is, you can't make an original character have a completely normal, bland past; they might not be a Sue, but they'd be boring as hell.

Firefly: Simon Tam has a completely normal, bland past, right up to the point where he discovers his sister (deleted for spoilers).

Firefly doesn't start at that point, but it does start only a short time after that point. We get to see the effect of (deleted for spoilers) on Simon: that is interesting.

You can do the normal, boring past, as long as you give them an exciting and interesting present and show how the person who came out of that past deals with the present.

[Dreamstalker]

Mpreg...the concept fascinates me I must admit, but I personally have never read a fanfic where it's handled well. Someone went there on my list once o_O Just...NO.

[Lace Neil Singer]

This site I got to in order to read sporkage calls mpreg babies "assbabies". XD Legolas seems to be a common victim of mpreg fantasies for some reason.

[MystyGlyttyr]

I have always been fascinated by mpreg, I have to admit. I finally found myself a healthy outlet for it so I'm not tempted to inflict it on any fic readers...

Cheat codes and the Sims 2! :D

(Unfortunately, Jeff Hardy is currently pregnant with like, his eighth baby...I'm seriously running out of neighborhood to put all these brats in...)

[Dreamstalker]

Mysty, you are evil. In a good way. I love it.

[Lace Neil Singer]

XD

The sad fact is, that most men I know are incapable of handling even a common cold; I really doubt they could handle pregnancy and birth. XD

[Dreamstalker]

*snerk* How true.

[LewisLegion]

We did an RP story once that turned out so good we're actually publishing it (with permissions from the writers that we kept in there).

We had a totally horrible Mary Sue (or Gary Stu, I guess, since it was a dude) that wanted to join. We knew he was not the most talented writer but we let him in because...well, we're all not the most talented writers until we learn, practice, and take feedback.

Well, it turned out to be a mistake. Not only was his writing painful to read but his character...omg.

The story is about a research team in a haunted castle. HIS character was a mercenary who breaks into the castle, who is handsome and smart and knows immediately what's going on and how to control the twisted, demented spirit of a sadistic Victorian lady who is basically the nemesis of the entire plot. He even once tried to stop her harming someone by shouting 'it's me you want!!' even though no where in the plot was it in any way indicated that he was even a target, let alone THE focus of her murderous afterlife vengeance.

Being the...well, I guess the dungeon master of the situation...I killed his character after I couldn't stand it any more.

He immediately resurrected his character as a ghost. I immediately had the main bad chick destroy his ghost and send him to hell.

Needless to say, his is one character that will NOT be in the publication.

I wrote myself in a story as well (I consider this author insertion and NOT Mary Sue if it is intended to BE the author and not the author's ideal, unrealistic representation of what they wish they were). But the story was based on my own created universe and though it won't be published and the others in the series will (first due soon!) it is canon and will be vaguely referred to in the books after the timeframe in which I was involved.

[anakhouri]

When I comment on anyone's story, I always ask what level of criticism they want. As a professional writer, I crave hardcore constructive criticism and am used to giving it, so I don't want to give unwanted comments to someone who is just writing as a hobby.

I'm not a big fanfic writer or reader, but can't you just ignore stories on subjects you don't like? I guess not all writers list what it is their stories though so you probably get surprised a lot.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Mpreg appears in slash sometimes, so no, I can't ignore it. I like slash; however, bad slash really hacks me off.

In any case, I like to spork badfic and read badfic sporkage so avoiding the badfic would be difficult, if not impossible. XD

[Dreamstalker]

Badslash can be unintentionally hilarious on its own. Especially writers who are clueless about grammar.

What are people's thoughts on RPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction#Real_person_slash)?

[fireheart17]

OK, I'll admit I'm working on two fanfics at the moment, both of which have OCs.

One is for the Disney superhero movie Sky High :o but the inserted character has a somewhat dark past and winds up the damsel-in-distress.
The other is for Final Fantasy X and has been set after the events of the game, although not in the way of FFX-2. OC? Well, let's just say that the story's set in a high school with Tidus, Wakka, Lulu and Rikku involved and the new character is a new girl...but one who has a good and bad side to her.

I've kept these two to PG-13 (kissing only) and both characters have flaws, neither of which are fully developed in the first story. Both characters are afraid to take that next step, have mild cases of androphobia and in the case of the first one, affects her superhero powers (telekinesis and force fields)

I've seen both good and bad fanfiction out there in both an X-rated and G-rated site. some of the X-rated stuff is just baad....while some of the G-rated stuff is quite well done. I don't particularly like songfics either. Having said that, I've read some good song lyrics and they've helped me write my own.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Badslash can be unintentionally hilarious on its own. Especially writers who are clueless about grammar.

What are people's thoughts on RPS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_fiction#Real_person_slash)?
I think it should be avoided as these are real people you're talking about; people who can be upset if say, someone writes them as shagging their brother (yes, I did read an RPS story that went there... ick) or as being a rapist. -.- And, more to the point, can sue the author for defamation of character or something like that. Stick to fictional characters; much better.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Not a fan of the RPS. Then, not a fan of regular slash. Doesn't offend me, it just does nothing for me and I personally don't see the point. But the real person slash makes me uncomfortable for the reasons Lace sited. Real people are not make believe characters. They are...well...real people.

[Dreamstalker]

And, more to the point, can sue the author for defamation of character or something like that. Stick to fictional characters; much better.
That's exactly why my list bans anyone who even tries. The studio that now owns the franchise has tried to intimidate a few of the larger fansites into shutting down (for no reason other than they wanted complete control over everything--they failed). Nobody knows who is watching what (or how), so it's better to just play it safe.

RPS to me shows that the author has no respect for the actor (hence none for the character).

[Talon]

Here's one I've noticed recently on FF.net.

Some authors refer to female characters in their stories as "the blonde" or "the brunette". Excuse me, does she not have a name? And it is always women who get referenced by their hair colour, never men.

Whether or not that's limited to FF.net, its bad writing.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yeah, I know what you mean. They do describe men that way on occasion, and usually (in the case of male blonds, it's the incorrect form). But yeah, it's lazy writing. I don't like it either.

[Lace Neil Singer]

As is "he said/she said." Yes, you don't have to give out the person's name every single time, but constant "he said this, she said that" is very boring to read; even more so when the story contains just dialogue and no description. -.- Or, as in the case of a lot of Mary Sue stories, just constant discription of the Sue, and none of the other characters, or just fleeting discription. For example (not taken from a story, but demonstrates what I'm talking about)

Rowanna Mystick Angle Demetor ran her fingers thru her golden hair, which shone like the sun on ripening wheat. Her companion, Joe Bloggs, looked at her in admiration. He especially was admiring of Rowanna Mistick Angle Demetor's perfect figure, with curves in all the right places; her large, rounded breasts that didn't detract from her heartbreakingly beautiful face, with skin like peaches and cream, sapphire blue eyes that were like pools a man could fall into, and lips like rose petals.

Urgh. I feel dirty just having written that. *stabs writing*

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Oh, good Lord. :eek:

Yeah, that's bad. Real bad.

You write your scene right, you don't even really need to say who is speaking or who the subject is. The reader will know. That can be taken to extreme, but if you can't find an unobtrusive way to let your reader know who is speaking or who is the subject of the paragraph, you need to rewrite that bit.

That bit you just quoted is so purple it makes my stomach hurt. Geez. I'm hoping the writer of that is very young and will grow out of that.

Another thing people do is they don't understand Point of View. Makes it very hard to follow when the writer keeps swapping who's pov we are seeing the scene from. I've seen this done sometimes within the same paragraph. Extremely confusing to read. A writer should probably stick to as few POVs as possible. If they are writing romance, then no more than two.

[Talon]

Lace Neil Singer, thank you very much for reintroducing me to my last meal :p

On a different note, I once had a critique of my aliens fanfic that I wasn't putting enough detail and description into my characters. I generally prefer to add small details over time, allowing readers' imaginations to fill in the blanks and have developed an image over time, on their own. Dumping a load of appearance detail all at once gets forgotten over time (assuming it's a long story).

I just realized something frightening. I suspect some Sue-authors are aware readers will forget details over the course of a long story, and continue to assault us with gratuitous descriptions again and again.. uh-oh here comes my last meal again!

[Lace Neil Singer]

XD

I've seen fanfics and RP character introductions where a Suethor uses a picture; and doesn't give out any personality description whatsoever. In writing a picture is not worth 100 words, and should only be used as a reference; purple prose, like the example given, makes everyone feel physically sick. -.-

A good reference is that if your character makes everyone want to vomit over her, then she needs work. XD

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I agree that details should be fed out over time as they become relevant. I mean, you can certainly give a basic description, but you don't need a blow by blow rundown right out of the gate.

I like to describe a character through another character's eyes. That way, you get to know them both at the same time, you get a description AND an opinion.

[Dreamstalker]

Or, as in the case of a lot of Mary Sue stories, just constant discription of the Sue, and none of the other characters, or just fleeting discription.
:eek: That's my "coauthor". Yes, the universe I write in is well-established and readers generally don't need any description of the main canon characters, but that doesn't mean only the Sue is "worthy" of such.
Another thing people do is they don't understand Point of View. Makes it very hard to follow when the writer keeps swapping who's pov we are seeing the scene from.
She did that too. When even the original author can't figure out what's going on, that's bad.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

:eek: That's my "coauthor". Yes, the universe I write in is well-established and readers generally don't need any description of the main canon characters, but that doesn't mean only the Sue is "worthy" of such.

.

Well, if you are writing fanfic, that is probably true, but I might suggest it could be fun to desribe them anyways. I like it when an author describes someone I'm allready familiar with, only does it from a POV with a slightly different interpretation on the character. Everyone sees everyone differently than everyone else sees them, if that makes sense.

In my opinion, a fanfic writer should pretend cannon characters are unfamiliar to the reader, and use them like regular characters. Describe them. It will probably give a fresh feel to the story, plus it would be a fun writing exercise that would help the writier think about the characters in an objective way.

In the story I'm writing, a lot of what's going on goes on inside the character's heads. So sometimes the reader gets to see what they think of the other characters. The reader gets a lot of details about the characters that way, just not dumped on them all at once.


Here's some things I can't stand to read, in no particular order:

1. Songfics. I don't know why, they just annoy the heck out of me.
2. Characters who are described by saying they look like some actor or other famous person. Lazy writing, right there.
3. Pop culture references
4. POV all over the road
5. The purple descriptive crap described in the last couple posts here
6. Wildly out of character stuff
7. No formatting (bad spelling or punctuation, while not fun to read, is forgivable. Everyone's learning, not everyone has great spelling spills, and at least they are writing. But I cannot and will not read a solid, unbroken block of unrelieved text. )
8. People who write 50 words, call it a chapter, then say "if you want more, leave feedback." You don't get the props without doing the work. You want feedback, write something.
9. Sophmoric non-words..."majorly" is probably on the top of my list.
10. Cliche'd phrases

[Talon]

Re-hashing portions of a story that have already been written, through another character's POV.

This one goes beyond fanfiction. Orson Scott Card tried it in his Ender series, and it really wasn't that compelling. Frankly it was boring. I recently tried it in my own fanfiction. My editor who normally laps up my story like it's the only water he's seen in a weeklong drought, couldn't be bothered to finish reading my alternate POV-retelling. That spoke volumes.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Re-hashing portions of a story that have already been written, through another character's POV.

.

You know, I wouldn't have seen that. That sounds like a cool concept, and on the surface, sounds like it might be fun. I haven't read any fics like that.

The concept sure works for TV...the funniest "My Name Is Earle" I've ever seen rehashed the same story through (I think) five people's eyes in one episode. Yes. Same story through all the main characters's POV in one sitting. Pure gold.

I guess maybe a lot of the humor is visual, so maybe it doesn't translate well to writing.

[Lace Neil Singer]

As I mentioned earlier, I can't stand plagurism. I once read a LOTR fanfic where the author not only wrote in a hideous Mary Sue who was the tenth walker, but when it came to describing Elrond and the council; she basically ripped off the entire movie script and stuffed it in the middle. That's just incredibly lazy, and shows that you really can't be bothered; what mattered to this author was showcasing her disgusting Mary Sue. -.-

Also, changing tense. Decide right at the start which you want to use; first person, second person or third, and stick to that. Don't start off with "she did this, she did that" and change to "I did this, I did that" half way thru. I once read a fic where the author started off with second person, changed to first, then finished in third. Ugh.

[Dreamstalker]

Well, if you are writing fanfic, that is probably true, but I might suggest it could be fun to desribe them anyways.
I always do that, if for no other reason than to make things more interesting within the story.
1. Songfics. I don't know why, they just annoy the heck out of me.
Ditto.
3. Pop culture references
I've been guilty in the past of using maybe one or two, but said references were quickly fixed before anyone else laid eyes on it (they were primarily "internal references" as a guideline to find a better phrasing/metaphor).
6. Wildly out of character stuff
I can deal if it's either an AU slashfic or very well justified, but please don't do it otherwise if there is solid evidence that the character would never act that way. It makes you look like an idiot.
8. People who write 50 words, call it a chapter, then say "if you want more, leave feedback." You don't get the props without doing the work. You want feedback, write something.
9. Sophmoric non-words..."majorly" is probably on the top of my list.
10. Cliche'd phrases
Yup, yup, and yup. I might be able to excuse #9 if it's the way a character talks, but even then it gets annoying fast. #10 has no excuse.
Re-hashing portions of a story that have already been written, through another character's POV.
I'll sometimes do that as an exercise only.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Re-hashing portions of a story that have already been written, through another character's POV.

That's what Meyer plans to do. O.o

I also hate it when people entitle their chapter "Mary Sue's POV" cuz it should be obvious by the writing who's point of view it is.

[Talon]

You know, I wouldn't have seen that. That sounds like a cool concept, and on the surface, sounds like it might be fun. I haven't read any fics like that.

Now that you mention it, the only places I've seen that are the aformentioned Orson Scott Card novel "Ender's Shadow", and an original story from a non-fanfic site.

I thought to give it a try, rewriting part of my story. The re-write was from the POV of a starship's self-aware computer control system. The AI witnessed a strained human chain of command, and began to doubt humans' ability to get things done. I thought the subject matter would be interesting, but it was just boring. It was hard to write, and I didn't like what I wrote. I tried re-writing it again, further cutting down and summarizing the parts of the story the readers were already familiar with, but it still didn't work. In the end I discarded the idea, along with about 10 pages of fanfiction.

I couldn't pull off alternate-POV retelling. One professional author I know of couldn't pull it off either. If someone can successfully pull it off, I'd love to read about it. But for now, I say the idea sounds much better on paper than in practice.

[Dreamstalker]

I think the only way second-person could work is in Choose Your Own Adventure-style books or video game scripts. It just seems odd to me especially in fanfic. I'm OK with first-person if it's a canon character POV, but from a Sue POV...gee, could you be a bit more obvious?

[Lace Neil Singer]

I hate second person; it's like the author is trying to force you, the reader, into the role of their Sue. O_o

[Dreamstalker]

During the experiment in which I gave my "coauthor" free reign, she tried to write like that for both my OC and the canon characters...being extremely favorable to her Sue and creating a borderline het/slash monstrosity :eek: (one of the listmoms maintains that she knew damn well what she was doing and that's why she did it)

That luckily was stopped before it went too far...my primary muse did hide in a corner for a few days afterwards though.

[MystyGlyttyr]

So far as haircolor descriptors, I did it in the most recent chapter of my wrestle-fic. But it was mostly because the people who I was introducing this way are literally throwaway characters (hopefully no one here is reading my fic or else I may have just spoiled something) so I never thought of them as anything more than character husks. I only offered those descriptions because the main character was "seeing them for the first time" and was identifying them to himself as they spoke.

Also, possibly once again spoiling something...what are people's thoughts on flashbacks as storytellers?

[Dreamstalker]

I don't really mind...IF it's relevant to the plot, well written and not overused. That's also one of the few situations where first-person could work.

[Lace Neil Singer]

If it's just yet another means of showcasing a Mary Sue; forget it. If it's relevant to the plot and is as well written as the rest of the story; and also, is obvious that it is a flashback (that means writing a followup to it, not just randomly throwing in an italicised paragraph and expecting people to guess) then go for it. XD

[RecoveringKinkoid]

First person is an absolutely wonderful POV, if it's done correctly and it suits the story. One of my favorite series, Joe. R. Lansdales' so-called Hap and Leonarad series, was written entirely first person, from Hap's POV. Robert R. McCammon's Boy's Life, one of the best books ever written IMHO, is in first person. The trick is getting the "voice" right.

I wrote an entire novella once in first person, and each chapter was from a different character's POV. Every character in the story, including the villian, had a chapter where it was their voice and their thoughts. It was a challenging an fun writing project.

Second person? I can't imagine that working. that was annoying even in the "Choose your own adventure" books.

[Lace Neil Singer]

I've got a chicklit book that's written from four different perspectives; each chapter is entitled "Matt", "H", "Susan" or "Stringer", depending on who's perspective it is. It works. Never mind the fact that it's chicklit, it's written well and the concept works.

I also have books written in first person; they work. However, I agree with RK; I am at a loss to see how second person can ever work. O_o Choose your own adventure books used to irritate me cuz they used "you" and put in actions I would never do. -.-

[Dreamstalker]

Yeah, first person can work very well--as long as it's clear whose POV is being used. I've read a few really good books like that.

Second-person...ugh.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

The reason first person POV so frequently fails is because it's so hard to do correctly if you are not used to writing that way. A lot of hobby writers do not know that it's something they need to pay attention to. After all, POV is a seamless part of the story if it's done correctly, so when reading well-written stuff, you don't notice it.

However, it's harder than you think to stay strictly within a certain POV unless you practice doing it. You have to think hard about how your story will unfold, because you only have a limited view from which to tell it. For instance, look at the Romance genre. A straight Romance only has, at the very most, two POV's...the hero and the heroine. The entire story is told only through their eyes.

The story I am doing online, while it's not straight romance, is more or less a romance type historical story. I've allowed myself three POV's instead of the usual two. Were I trying to get it published, I would have never added the third POV...an editor would probably dismiss it out of hand if I had done that and sent it in.

Here's something else that drives me nuts...passive voice. It's forgivable in a casual story written for fun, but it's something an editor would kick out as well. I've seen fanfics written with so much passive voice that it was almost like they were TRYING to write the entire thing in PV as a prank.

[Lace Neil Singer]

That's when they need to avail themselves of the services of a beta. Not their best friend, but someone neutral who can look at the story, read it over and accurately pick out what needs to be changed or fixed, and what is just absolutely god damned terrible and has to be removed completely. Such as your character being a Mary Sue. Or unrealistic recovery time. Example; Wolverine can recover quickly from injury, cuz he has mutant healing power. If your character is just an ordinary human being, he or she will not. Simple as that. I hate reading about overpowered Sues going into battle and either escaping unscafed, or being hurt and magically being better the next second. -,-

[RecoveringKinkoid]

You are absolutely right. However, I've rarely known someone who really wanted honest critique.

Oh, yeah, they say they do, but they never really do. I don't care they'e writing fanfic or original fiction. They think their stuff is genius and they don't take kindly to finding out your opinion is less than that of stunned adoration of their skill as a wordsmith.

I get asked a lot to critique stuff. To be honest, I very often just tell them I enjoyed it and move on. Probably shouldn't, but there you go. Especially if it's hopeless. I mean, probably, "I enjoyed reading it" wasn't a lie at all. I DO enjoy reading other people's stuff, good or bad. I like seeing what other people write, and as for just reading for enjoyment, I'm not a hard critic. If it kept me entertained and I appreciated the effort (which it usually did), fine. Thanks for sharing and that was a fun read and all that. No point nit picking something someone wrote for fun.

On the other hand, every now and then I get lulled into the idea that they want an honest opinion and I give them one. I would like to state that I always find more positive things to say than negative, always end with encouragement, and always suggest how to fix any problems, so no, I"m not just sitting there tearing apart their stuff.

Oh, they never freaking want to hear it. Waste of time almost always. And ironically, I never really give a real honest critique unless I think their stuff is really, really good and worth tinkering with.

If it's hopeless (like in the example posted in this thread) there's no point. But if it's good, yeah, let's work on it and make it stellar. Nobody wants to do that, they just want the props.

Although I will say that a friend of mine recently starting sending her stuff to me and I can honestly say I got nothing. She's brilliant. She's better than I am. I should be sending my stuff to her. ;)

[PepperElf]

8. People who write 50 words, call it a chapter, then say "if you want more, leave feedback." You don't get the props without doing the work. You want feedback, write something.
Also...

- People who write a story that's 50+ chapters... that turn out to be about 4 paragraphs each.

One of the old fanfic sites I use to go to based story length on chapters... so yes there was a 40+ chapter story that ended up being shorter than someone else's 6 chapter story.

- People who fill up their "word count" with constant replies to reader comments.

Some other sites base story length on word-count. This bulks up the word count so you think you're getting say... a 5000-word story, when in fact it's maybe 3000 words and a ton of author's notes.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Ugh, I hate author's notes. -.- Especially when they're bang in the middle of a chapter and serve no purpose whatsoever.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I know, I always wonder what the hell they are writing when I see that.

When was the last time these people picked up, say, a book and it had author's notes ever chapter or so. Writers, here's a tip: if you need to explain something, understand that you DON'T need to explain anything. You do, however, need to get in there and do some re-writing to make your story make sense without the notes.

[Dreamstalker]

I've read a few fics that were essentially just a collection of stream-of-consciousness author's notes...it's like they filled in a basic outline (actually, even saying it had an outline was a stretch) with ramblings and thought that's how you write fanfic.

[Lace Neil Singer]

One fic that I read sporkage about had awful, self obsessed authors notes after practically every scene. Worse; the author was anticipating what the reader was saying. -.- Here's an example:

That's so sad, she has to watch her sister die
Is she some type of warrior? (me: all will be revealed in time)
*sniffle

And another:

Frodo lives! (me: of course, have you not seen the movies?)
Where did the name come from? (me: she's named after her grandmother, Galadriel)
Galadrianna has healing powers? (me: yup, not major ones, but they're there)

The entire badfic was filled with these annoying author notes; making it even more unreadable. After looking at the first chapter, after that I just read the spork. XD

[MystyGlyttyr]

I've added author's notes to a few places in my stories, but they were always tech specs or something of the sort. (Addressing a controversy about the story, offering an explanation for the disappearance and reappearance of a chapter, etc.) The most snarky thing I did was at the beginning of one chapter, write a quick note about a heavily tattooed character getting an MRI to prevent people e-mailing me about whether or not it would rip the tats out of his skin. (It wouldn't!! GAR)

This is less a hate, and more, to me, an oddity. Whenever FF.net readers add my story to their favorites list, I get an e-mail notification, and I go check out the person's profile just as a matter of curiosity. Almost every time, their list of favorites is all one kind of story that is NOTHING like what mine is. My story is (at least intended to be) a psychological drama wrestlefic mindscrew that's only rated M for safety's sake (well, there's a couple of things...), and it shows up on a list for a person who has nothing else but fluffy CSI and House fics, or borderline pornographic torture fics, or something to that effect. I've never questioned the people adding it as to what stuck out so that they'd fave mine, but I am rather curious about what kind of takes people are getting from it that makes them interested when their list indicates it's FAR off their norm.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Might have less to do with your subject matter and more to do with your writing style.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Might have less to do with your subject matter and more to do with your writing style.

Okay, at the risk of sounding a bit dumb, how do you mean? I mean, a CSI story could be brilliantly written, and I like the characters, but that fandom just doesn't interest me so even when I try to read those fics, I just can't stomach them, let alone bother to fave them. Also, I know I'm a good writer (I'm not gonna play all coy false modest), but I'm not THAT good. I can do circles around your average Suethor and entertain most people pretty well, but I ain't winning any contests. (Unless it's a torture-Rey-Mysterio contest, and even at that, I can point out who I'd be coming in second to LOL)

[RecoveringKinkoid]

What I mean is that some people may not care what subject of genre something is, they just like people who write a certain way. Or, they may simply like YOUR particular way with words, regardless of what you are writing about.

I have looked at some writers that way. I didn't care what they wrote, I just appreciated their skill and their style. They could write a grocery list and I'd read it.

Judging from your posts, you have a hilariious way with words. I don't doubt for a minute you can write really well.

[Lace Neil Singer]

^This. I once read a House fanfic which was linked on another forum. It was fantastic; even tho I have never in my life watched House, I really enjoyed the fic cuz it was well written, with amazing characters and done in such a way, that you wouldn't have to be a fan of the series to enjoy it.

I've also joined RPs that are based off computer games, for example Condemned, which I haven't ever played, but have been able to create a character and join cuz of the intense RP description and plot information. Some people have it, some don't, I guess. Not sure I have the patience to write fanfic properly; I did write one several years ago while I was at school, but I'd never want to review it or publish it. XD I looked it over, and surprisingly it wasn't that bad; it was a LOTR fanfic and my character never met any of the main characters... well, she saw Aragorn from a distance, but that's about it. XD

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I've read stuff about shows I've never watched or books I've never read. I read it because I seriously love to read really good non-professional writing.

[guywithashovel]

Also, check my last rant; if you burst a blood vessel even at the sight of a well thought out piece of constructive criticism and act as tho the reviewer has just kicked your puppy, then don't put your writing online. And no, I don't mean flames like "ur storie sux ars u dickhed!1!!!", I mean proper concrit that actually tells the person what they're doing right as well as wrong, just as an English teacher or publisher would. If you're a teen and writing, you might as well do it right."


I'll admit, I haven't read this entire thread, so something like what I'm about to say might have already been said, but I'll have a go at it, anyway.

I have written two novels myself, though I haven't shown them to anyone yet. I also have never posted anything on FanFic. In fact, I have never even checked it out, and I have very little inclination to do so. However, I do occasionally make videos on Youtube, and recently I experienced something similiar to this in the comments section of one of my videos. Long story short, someone made a critical remark about my video and rated it 2 stars out of five. My response to this user wasn't mean, but I did get a tad bit snippy. Let me explain why.

His comments went something like this: "Fair points, but you could have made it much shorter, so I took the rating down to 'Nothing Special' (two stars). You do show promise though, and perhaps with some time and diversity of subject matter, you could pull together some nice videos."

Before I went to work on my reply, I took some time to check out his Youtube channel. What did I find? He had only posted two videos, and neither of the videos had been made by him Someone else on Youtube had made those videos, and he had downloaded them and reposted them on his channel. The point I'm trying to get at is, he hadn't made any videos of his own and posted them. In response, I essentially told him that honest comments were appreciated, but in lieu of the fact that he hasn't put up any material of his own, I wasn't going to take his remarks too seriously.

The part that sort of got to me was the part where he said, "You do show promise, and perhaps with some time and diversity of subject matter you could put up some nice videos." He came onto my video, gave it a crappy rating just because it was longer than he thought it should be (mostly disregarding my video's message), and then acted like he was some experienced guru who really knew what he was talking about. Taking into consideration the fact that he hadn't posted any videos that he had made, I found his comments to be quite arrogant and pretentious.

A fanfic parallel to this would be if I posted a story, and someone said the same types of things about my story that this guy said about my video, and I found out that this person had never posted any stories of his own. Maybe it's just me, but I think that if you're going to go around giving people criticism on something, you should expose your work as well.

I actually think about this whenever I read reviews on Amazon and a reviewer says something like, "Now, *insert author's name* definitely has a long way to go if she wants to be a respected writer." I always think, "Yeah, and how many novels have YOU written and published?"

[Boozy]

The part that sort of got to me was the part where he said, "You do show promise, and perhaps with some time and diversity of subject matter you could put up some nice videos." He came onto my video, gave it a crappy rating just because it was longer than he thought it should be (mostly disregarding my video's message), and then acted like he was some experienced guru who really knew what he was talking about.

If that's the worst you get in the YouTube comments section, consider yourself lucky. ;)

Welcome to the Internet. Where every douchebag has an opinion and thinks that everyone needs to hear it.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Also, you're forgetting that as a reader, I and anyone else has a right to comment on a story that someone else has written. If you can't take concrit, then you shouldn't be a writer; you will get far far FAR worse from a publisher than simply "Your character is a Mary Sue, paragraphing is your friend and you need to get a beta to read thru each chapter before you put it up as you have several spelling mistakes". Someone who's a friend of my parents had a book published, but she had to rewrite parts of it several times before it passed muster; sometimes, she was even reduced to tears of frustration cuz of working hard and then it being criticised.

[guywithashovel]

If that's the worst you get in the YouTube comments section, consider yourself lucky. ;)

Welcome to the Internet. Where every douchebag has an opinion and thinks that everyone needs to hear it.

Actually, I have gotten worse on my videos. I've been using the Internet since 1996. I know by now how it works. ;) The only reason I brought that up was because it was pertinent to this discussion, and I thought it represented a good point to add.


Also, you're forgetting that as a reader, I and anyone else has a right to comment on a story that someone else has written. If you can't take concrit, then you shouldn't be a writer; you will get far far FAR worse from a publisher than simply "Your character is a Mary Sue, paragraphing is your friend and you need to get a beta to read thru each chapter before you put it up as you have several spelling mistakes". Someone who's a friend of my parents had a book published, but she had to rewrite parts of it several times before it passed muster; sometimes, she was even reduced to tears of frustration cuz of working hard and then it being criticised.


No, I'm not forgetting that. I do realize that if I ever go the way of getting published, I'm probably going to deal with headaches from publishers and editors.

The reason I said what I said was that it has long been a pet peeve of mine when people put forth little to nothing of their own, yet want to criticize the crap out of anything that anyone else does. A non-writing, non-videomaking example of this would be a neighbor of mine when I was a kid. She had never learned how to drive a car, yet she wouldn't blink an eye before telling someone else how to drive. Draw this parallel to writing. If someone who has never even attempted to write a novel is going to tell me how to do it, I probably won't be too receptive of what that person has to say. Maybe I'm going to be in the minority on this, but if you can't show me where you've done better on something, then don't tell me how to do it.

[Lace Neil Singer]

You are forgetting, or at the best, deliberately misunderstanding; you're basically saying that no-one has a right to criticise anything unless they've done it themselves. So that's every food critic out of a job, then. I guess that the people who review movies can't do that either, cuz they've never acted or directed a movie.

The fact is, that as a reader, I have a perfect right to say why I don't like your writing, and to point out that it's subpar. I've also studied English lit in A-Level, so when I tell you that you need to use paragraphing or that you don't need to abuse commas the way you've been doing, I know what I'm talking about. As long as a person doesn't post a flame, or just puts "That was crap" without justifying what they're saying, then you have a choice. You can either ignore it and carry on writing the way you are, even if you're writing badly, or you can read it, suck it up and follow it. But you can't stand there and say, "Blah blah, you haven't got anything up online therefore you can't tell me mine sucks".

[MystyGlyttyr]

I think the difference is criticizing as a reader, and criticizing as an "expert." For instance, as a pro wrestler, if another wrestler were to tell me something I did in a match would have looked better if I had done this, this, and this, I'd take it more seriously than if a 14-year-old boy who otherwise never says anything about women's wrestling but "BEWBS" were to say the same thing.

Further, I usually end up shaking my head whenever dorky wrestling fanboys start working each other into a froth over how something "should" have gone when I know perfectly well why it wouldn't have gone that way (particularly when it's something that defies the laws of physics, heh), and yet my calm explanations of that reason are dismissed with "Well, no, that's not right!"

It's when people presume to speak more than they can rightly know that it's so annoying. I might look at a paper on calculus and say "You know, this formula would make more sense if you added these symbols here and here" and it might, but a calculus major would look at me like I was completely insane and rightly so.

Writing is a lot more subjective, though, so yeah.

[Boozy]

Actually, I have gotten worse on my videos. I've been using the Internet since 1996. I know by now how it works. ;)

Of course, I didn't doubt it. I apologize if I sounded condescending. I was just trying to commiserate with you, because I know how ridiculous and insulting those YouTube comments can be. :)

[Lace Neil Singer]

That's a fact; once this stupid bitch not only posted a ranting raving comment on the video, in response to a comment I'd made to someone else, but she also sent me a message and posted a comment on my profile. I just deleted her drivel and posted on the video that she needs to do two things. Firstly, wipe the rabid froth off her mouth and realise that I was not even replying to her, and second, get professional help. Since that wasn't the first time a psycho's done that to me, I then made my profile private. -.- Jeez, overreact much?

I get what Mysty's saying; however, it's just that a lot of badfic authors use that excuse and it's wearing thin, especially when said badfic shows promise and just needs to be tweaked a little to make it good. Here's what I usually link people to if they drop the dummy over polite contrit with that response (I am ALWAYS polite when I give concrit; I do NOT see the point of flaming):

http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/FAQ:For_Other_People
"Who are you to judge? I bet you can't write half as well. Show me some of your work, if you're so much better!"

I am a reader. As such, I know what doesn't work for readers. Unless you didn't write your story to be read, don't question my qualifications as a reader.

[Fire_on_High]

Re-hashing portions of a story that have already been written, through another character's POV.



I've seen authors who could pull it off, and I've seen ones who couldn't. My favorite author did two books centered around one of the most famous time periods referenced in her main trilogy...one from the POV of one major segment of society, one from another. The books worked together splendidly! Of course it helps that with all the songs referring to this heroic saga the fandom was starving for the stories, but none of her early books were turds.

A few years ago, she handed her main world to her son. Total. Effin. Disaster.

He's butchered it in ways I didn't think it could be butchered. It makes me want to cry...the world I grew up with, read voraciously for 20 years...just savaged.

His last several books had a couple of super Mary Sues and a Gary Stu, as well as covering the same 15 or so years of history from about 5 POVs.

I'm intentionally not naming names as I'm fairly sure at least in years past she did scour the web to see what fan authors were doing and what folks thought of her work...I hope in her old age she never realizes how bad he's done.

I've seen an author on ff.net who should've been the chosen heir...she wrote a direct sequel to the earliest novel in the timeline and it was a great match stylewise, really fit in with canon, answered the inevitable questions that came up.

The last book just killed it for me...the one before was a stinker, the one before that was a trite stinker with cliched characters, but the absolute rape of canon on how certain characters would act just floored me.

In any case...I've ended up fascinated with a new fandom lately, where the company that created the characters put out a single official pic, a small bio with their age and a small hint about them, and then let the fans make of them what they will. Oh...and a voice. Which in some ways changes everything, when you know exactly what the character being written about *sounds* like.

I've seen some pretty amazing PVs, read some wonderful fanfic, and yes...listened to some great songs as well.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Okay, another person faved me and I went to look at their profile, and my fic was the only one that wasn't Twilight. Now that's just insulting ;)

This is another one that bugs me, although I understand why it happens. People who try frantically to guess what's going to happen next. Not that I have any issue with people guessing. It's when they fill up comments/inboxes with "IS THIS GONNA HAPPEN IS IT IS IT IS IT HUH HUH HUH??" and then getting all perturbed when they don't get an answer they like. Look, I know I don't update every day, or even as often as I myself would like, but I can't just be spelling out future plot devices to you people. What's the point of reading a story if you just want me to tell you everything that's going to happen?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Tell them total lies. I would. XD And in fact, did; I read the last Harry Potter book, and suddenly people were bugging me to tell them what happened. I got sick of just saying, "Read the damn book!" and just made a whole lot of shit up; I told them all something different just for kicks.

[Fire_on_High]

I like that idea. I can see maybe asking during the first week or so, when it's still hard to find a copy. After that? Read it yourself, lazybones. Picking up a book won't kill you.

[DGoddess]

I'm fascinated by this. Until fairly recently, I didn't know that fan-fiction was written about anything other than Star Trek.

I'm assuming that it's the self-publication of bad fanfiction that bothers you all, as opposed to its very existence. I'll bet there are a hundred 13 year-old girls writing stories in which they marry Harry Potter for every one that actually posts her stuff on the internet. That seems like a fairly normal pre-teen girl activity, not much different than keeping a diary.

It's been around for years and even I didn't know there was a term for it until I first arrived online in 1997 and discovered an online fan club mailing list for my favorite show.

It was then I discovered I wasn't the only one writing my own stories based on the characters . . . others do it as well.

I've gotten several shorts online and so far, one of the major stories (divided up into 3 sections of several chapters as it's so long) on my personal website. I find it way easier to just publish my stuff onto my web space rather than go through the hassle and expense of publishing books and selling very few. My philosophy on that is basically this:

I write it the way I see it played in my mind. If you like it, great. If you don't, that's okay too.

I've been working and reworking stuff since 1983 . . . and still on occasion coming up with more ideas, but to find the time has been a challenge in recent years.

And I have to agree somewhat with the Mary Sue characters, but OTOH if you can put an interesting spin on them, they're not so bad.

I've not one but 2 MJ's and they both kick ass, take names, take pictures, share them all over the world and then some. They see themselves as genuises, but they end up looking more like a double dose of Wile E. Cyote on occasion. :p

And that reminds me . . . as soon as I can get a couple of hours I really need to start on that short where they got pulled over for speeding in New Orleans and ended up arrested for bootlegging. :D

[Lace Neil Singer]

By the way, Mary Sue does NOT equal original character. The only Mary Sue story that's any good is a parody; I've seen some really hilarious ones on fanfic.net as well as some great original characters who fit perfectly with the canon and really could have been written in by the original author. ^^

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Someone actualy wrote a fanfic for my writing blog (which of course was awesomely fun for me! :) ) and in it was an original character.

The original character was inspired by the profile pic of Yours Truly.

I loved the story, and it was close enough to canon I told the writer that heck, I'd just post it as a "guest post" and not as a fanfic. In other words, I now consider the story to be canon.

Is that a Mary Sue? I didn't write it. I hope it's not a Mary Sue. It's not like "I" have super powers in the story or anything. :o

Anyway, he's suggested I use the character in my own posts. I would not be against that, except that if I do it, it IS a Mary Sue, and I told him as much.

Not something I want to be doing, writing Mary Sues.