Reincarnation?

[MystyGlyttyr]

This isn't something I see discussed a lot, so I'm curious. Believe in it? Don't believe in it? Think it could be possible?

Even though I'm arguably Christian, I do believe in it, though it's hard to describe how. I think maybe sometimes there are souls that either have a need to come back and do good again, or something happened that wasn't supposed to (what with free will and all) and a person gets a second chance. I don't think it's something one HAS to do, but a choice one gets offered and some feel the need to take back up, or just want to experience something different, like coming back as a cat or something. (Me and my family are pretty well convinced that my mom's current cat Ozzy was also her cats from the past, Thomas, Moose, and Moe, and that he knows my mother needs him so he keeps coming back to be with her again...I know it may be silly sounding, but every one of those cats was just so remarkably similar in personality and appearance that it's pretty easy to believe.)

At least that's my thought, YMMV, heh. I'm just curious to see what other people think about it.

[Flyndaran]

Eh, for a while I toyed with the idea; as a born atheist living among a species of relgious and spiritual majority it gets pretty darn lonely.

My favorite, though gruesome, "evidence" for reincarnation comes from India but not in the way you may think.

A chicken farmer wondered why so many of his animals were getting killed and eaten. He madet proper precuations... until he realized that it was one of his other animals kept with the chickens to save space etc.
Yes, a docile cow loved to devour chicken live. It was concluded that s/he was a reincarnated tiger.

[Boozy]

Well, that was a rather horrifying story, Flyn.

Thanks for the nightmares.:p

[AFPheonix]

Meh, it seems a little warm and squishy to me. I do make stupid karma jokes though.

I really don't see why it's so scary for some people to just not exist at all after they die.

[Slytovhand]

I've got things that I call memories from a lifetime different to this one.

When I deal better with my stuff, and get my act together, I shall try my best to validate those memories in present life.

No, not Cleopatra or Mark Antony or anything so glorious (or standard :p)

I've also walked into a person's room and recognised where the decor was orginally from, just as I recognised her from a similar time period.

And other similar weird and unusual occurances.

So, for some of us, it's not a matter of it being scary, it's a matter of taking our experiences and making the most amount of consistent sense of them.


yes, nice chicken story Flyn....:p

[DrT]

I like the idea, but I don't like the fact that you're not supposed to remember your past life, except through random details and memories that don't appear to come from you (as in: the right now you)

Now if one could make it happen with the option of carrying the memories from one to the next, I'll sign up for it. (kinda like the Gholas in Dune).

There are a plethora of people like Sly saying that they have memories/skills/etc that don't belong to them. The issue being: it's very difficult to prove.
Tis enough to intrigue me, but since I don't really like the format of it (losing all memories of before) I don't really see the point of it

[vanima]

a friend of mine went to Ireland and was driving past a field.. she stopped because she felt she HAD too..


she decided to walk into the field and suddenly had a strong visual of herself (in male form) with a bunch of sheep...


she feels in the past life she was a sheep herder... and was male.. and had sex with sheep..




and yes.. we make fun of her constantly....

[Slytovhand]

So... she's feeling a bit sheepish about that now?




(Whatt??????? someone had to...)

[AFPheonix]

I guess this is the perfect gift (http://muttonbone.com/store.html?gclid=CIfluLTFoZcCFSJIagodM3oiJA) for her then?

[rdp78]

I don't really believe in reincarnation but I think there is some existence of it. I mean I never really experience it myself but I have seen somethings on it. Of course, I always want to know what happens with children that died or weren't even born when they died (miscariage, abortion). Did they ever get a second chance at life or was that there only chance?

In 2006, "Primetime" did story on a little boy who could remember details of of being WWII Navy pilot and having nightmares of being shot down. The parents found he was reliving a past life and yes, there were people saying they were telling their child these stories because he was interest planes. Anyway there has be studied where young children are remembering past lives but in a few years they will forget about them.

I know that reincarnation is very common in Eastern religions mainly Buddhism and Hinduism. Buddhists believe that the Dalai Lama and other Lamas are reincarnations of previous Lamas. In Hinduism where castes have been common for centuries it is believe if you were born in a lower caste and do good you will be reborn in a higher caste.

[Flyndaran]

That's the true insidiousness of reincarnation. It makes it far too easy to blame people for circumstances outside their control.
You were born poor and disabled? You must have been a bad person in a previous life.

[Slytovhand]

While I sort of understand the last line, it doesn't really match up with the first there, Flyn.

If you were bad in a past life (and presuming there is some connection between past life behaviour and current life situations), you've still got to take responsibility for your actions in this life. Poor and disabled? Bad person before? So what?? Get on with it, and stop looking for excuses.

Besides, it's no more insidious than blaming God, the Devil, society, the government, parents, or anything else...

[Flyndaran]

But they believe that your actions follow you through incarnations. What I wrote was simply the logical conclusion of such beliefs.
It's not blaming any deity or even luck. It's blaming your past self's actions as a natural state of continuation. If you jump off a cliff, would you get mad at the earth for not protecting you? To them karma is as real as gravity and just as inevitable.

If some deity were responsible for my suffering that had nothing to do with my actions, then I would blame it. As an atheist though, I have no one to blame, or thank, but myself and irritating chance.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Of course, I always want to know what happens with children that died or weren't even born when they died (miscariage, abortion). Did they ever get a second chance at life or was that there only chance?

That's actually something that has been experienced, where people do have some recollections of things of that sort.

I personally think if ANYONE gets a second chance, the ones who die young do...

[Amethyst Hunter]

I really don't see why it's so scary for some people to just not exist at all after they die.

Well, if you had a good life, why would you want to give that up even in an afterlife? Conversely, what if you had an absolutely shittastic life and retained some fragile sliver of hope that the afterlife would be better? That would really suck to go through something horrible on earth and then get jack shit for compensation. 'Tis why I cannot believe in atheism. Too cold and hard for me. (Besides, if there is no god and no heaven or hell, then we may as well be as pure evil as we want, because unless we got caught by human authorities, we wouldn't have to worry about any punishment. Not that I'm any fan of the "be good or else God will get you!" school of thought either, but I would like to think that the decent people get rewarded and the assholes get a serious karmic kick in the teeth.)

I like the idea, but I don't like the fact that you're not supposed to remember your past life, except through random details and memories that don't appear to come from you (as in: the right now you)

Yeah, me neither. If I fucked up in a past life, then dammit, I want to know about it so I can *avoid* repeating the same thing in my current life!

[Flyndaran]

Why should I NOT care about dying and ceasing to exist?
The idea that someone cares so little for themselves that dying itself would not be a horrific tragedy, confuses me.

I have a strong urge to survive. Wanting to survive even after I die is simply the logical outgrowth of knowing that I can't live forever.
That fact pisses me off more than anything or anyone else in this reality.
I kind of wish that I could beleive in an afterlife if ofr no other reason than so I don't waste any time angry at the inevitable.
Sometimes a comforting lie is, if not best, then at least painless.

[Boozy]

I'd think that ceasing to exist is a pretty traumatic concept, for most people.

Worse for some would be the knowledge that their loved ones would cease to exist.

[AFPheonix]

Maybe I'm odd, but I find it kind of comforting. After all, once I'm dead and gone, I'm not going to know any better anyways. And for loved ones, I know that they are not feeling pain or suffering anymore. I derived great enjoyment with them during my time with them in this existence, and I get to keep that experience with me until my time is done, too.
I think of it as going to sleep and never waking again. It doesn't sound too unpleasant all in all.

As for going and being evil, why would I want to do that? Why can I not desire my reward here and now, when I know that I exist? It feels good to do good for others. I rather enjoy that feeling.

I guess I'm arguing more for enjoying and living for the time we know we have now, this existence we have, rather than worrying about some possible post-death experience that may never come. When it's done, it's done.

[Boozy]

I guess I'm arguing more for enjoying and living for the time we know we have now, this existence we have, rather than worrying about some possible post-death experience that may never come.

I can completely agree with that.

But that does bring up another reason why belief in the afterlife is so appealing to some people. Some people don't enjoy the life they have, and some don't see any hope of it getting better. I don't feel much sympathy to someone whose life is what they've made it, but I do feel empathy to those who live a hard and painful life as sustenance farmers in a corrupt, diseased, and war-torn country. For the millions of people who are trapped in this kind of life, hope for something better after death might be all they have, and praying to God might be all they can do for their children.

Atheism could almost be considered a luxury of the West.

[AFPheonix]

I can completely agree with that.

But that does bring up another reason why belief in the afterlife is so appealing to some people. Some people don't enjoy the life they have, and some don't see any hope of it getting better. I don't feel much sympathy to someone whose life is what they've made it, but I do feel empathy to those who live a hard and painful life as sustenance farmers in a corrupt, diseased, and war-torn country. For the millions of people who are trapped in this kind of life, hope for something better after death might be all they have, and praying to God might be all they can do for their children.

Atheism could almost be considered a luxury of the West.

Perhaps. I wasn't really thinking of them when I posted initially, I was thinking of people I grew up in the church with, who obviously are not subsistence farmers, and yet they have such fear of what could happen to them in the next life they seem to forget about this life.
That I just flat out don't comprehend.

[Flyndaran]

A tiny instant of life versus an eternity of "place religious belief here" should preoccupy believers. It would be irrational to live life lazily and even slightly selfishly if you truly beleived that your actions mattered for freakin' eternity.

I sure as heck wouldn't have eaten so many cinnamon rolls if I really thought that a supreme deity looked down on my gluttony and frowned. The immediate effects for atheist me are simply extra calories and sugar rush , which I gladly accepted for the tasty gain.

I don't want to exist forever because I'm arrogrant, consider myself any more special than the other 6.X billion people. I want to exist forever, because I am me, and demand to continue to be me.
I will never accept death and non-existance. I will be on my deathbed pissed off fighting for that last breath. I know I have limits where non-existance might be better than continued existance, and that thought frightens me slightly more than non-existance itself.

I may lack the "god module", but I got double hlepings of survival instinct. :)

[Slytovhand]

Flyn, regarding your 'logical conclusion' regarding reincarnation - there is one flaw. For those of us who do really believe it, then it's not a matter of 'blaming another life', because, in (our) reality, it is the same individual living throughout those lives - just in another meat-sack. Our past lives are just as relevant, and we are just as responsible, for all the years we are alive this time around. The 'blame' is only as valid as eating all those cinnamon rolls eariler in this life is.

A question for all those freaked out about the whole death thing - regardless of what your take on it is. Have any of you found a point in your life where you truly felt at peace?

In my world view (and I need to stress the 'my' bit), the only thing that really is scared is the ego - it can't possibly deal with not being around. Once you (the real you) gets past the ego, then a lot of things that seem important no longer are.

Oh, Flyn, one other question regarding what you said... does the thought that you didn't actually exist before this life also scare you??

[Flyndaran]

Flyn, regarding your 'logical conclusion' regarding reincarnation - there is one flaw. For those of us who do really believe it, then it's not a matter of 'blaming another life', because, in (our) reality, it is the same individual living throughout those lives - just in another meat-sack. Our past lives are just as relevant, and we are just as responsible, for all the years we are alive this time around. The 'blame' is only as valid as eating all those cinnamon rolls eariler in this life is.
Then no on is innocent.
If true, then not even the kindest toddler has an uncheckered past.
But this is really two issues: reincarnation and karma.

I like the idea of reincarnation as a kind of magic continual life do over, but the idea of karma offends me. I am me. I am responsible for what I do. Even if some atom sized speck of eternality that exists within me was once withing Hitler, that in no way tarnashes my name.

A question for all those freaked out about the whole death thing - regardless of what your take on it is. Have any of you found a point in your life where you truly felt at peace?

Hee. I've had a crippling anxiety problem for nearly my whole life. Peace is not something I'm allowed.... in this life at least. ;)
I don't care how comfortable I am at any moment. I don't want to die. My survival instinct and personal ethical obligation to continue life is VERY strong. No philosophy could change that. Only escape from horrific pain and suffering could ever make me even consider the option that non-existance would be better than gasping for just one more breath.

In my world view (and I need to stress the 'my' bit), the only thing that really is scared is the ego - it can't possibly deal with not being around. Once you (the real you) gets past the ego, then a lot of things that seem important no longer are.

Oh, Flyn, one other question regarding what you said... does the thought that you didn't actually exist before this life also scare you??

The ego, in other words, me. Of course it's me that doesn't want to die.

That last is a nonsense question. For I to feel anything I must exist. I exist now and want to continue to exist. The idea that I won't exist forever pisses me off more than just about anything else in existance.

[Slytovhand]

As you said, reincarnation and Karma are 2 issues. I believe in reincarnation (d'uh!), but not Karma (at least, not in 1 sense - and that sense is usually a mis-interpreted version of Karma).

Karma is simply what physicists have told us - there are causes and effects, every action has a consequence. Where I don't believe in Karma is that these effects or consequences have a moral implication. I don't believe in 'you've done bad things, bad things will come back on you'. Rather, 'things happen. They lead to other things. How you interpret them depends on your perspective'.

If, perchance, you were Hitler, would that really matter in the here and now? Can leopards change their spots? Do people change? Whether you were Hitler, or Madame Curie, in a past life shouldn't really affect how you choose to act in this life... other than knowing that when you were a slave, it sucked, so try not to be a nasty 'master' in this life.

Peace is an internal thing - a state of mind and emotion. Are you aware that Buddhist monks (I forget which sect) have someone give them a mighty good whack with a bamboo staff when they are getting distracted... to the point that the student actually requests the whacck to help them meditate?


As for the 'ego' bit, in my world view - no, the ego and the 'person' are 2 seperate entities. The spirit - that which continues on after body death - has no fear of body death, as it knows it will continue on afterwards. The ego, on the other hand, has no such concept of life after death, thus it 'lives in fear' of ending. Which has a nice practical application - no matter how shitty your life, you still try desperately to hang on to it - thus making a person live longer to achieve things. After all, if we didn't have that, and had knowledge of said LAD, then anytime things got 'too bad', we'd just top ourselves and think 'meh, I'll come back and get it right next time'.

[Flyndaran]

As you said, reincarnation and Karma are 2 issues. I believe in reincarnation (d'uh!), but not Karma (at least, not in 1 sense - and that sense is usually a mis-interpreted version of Karma).

Karma is simply what physicists have told us - there are causes and effects, every action has a consequence. Where I don't believe in Karma is that these effects or consequences have a moral implication. I don't believe in 'you've done bad things, bad things will come back on you'. Rather, 'things happen. They lead to other things. How you interpret them depends on your perspective'..

Ouch. I really don't like sciences getting taken into philosophocal or religious discussions. Karma is only cause and effect through the lens of reincarnation. We all know that cruelty can get rewarded and kindness punished in the span of a single lifetime. Physics would demand that karma work throughout eternity, not only get slapped on in between lives.

As If, perchance, you were Hitler, would that really matter in the here and now? Can leopards change their spots? Do people change? Whether you were Hitler, or Madame Curie, in a past life shouldn't really affect how you choose to act in this life... other than knowing that when you were a slave, it sucked, so try not to be a nasty 'master' in this life.time'.

I'm not even talking about whether my past life's personality would alter the genetics and enviromental aspects of my present life's personality.
I was talking about karma. Karma would punish me today no matter how good I was, because I "needed" to burn off the sins of "my" past.



Peace is an internal thing - a state of mind and emotion. Are you aware that Buddhist monks (I forget which sect) have someone give them a mighty good whack with a bamboo staff when they are getting distracted... to the point that the student actually requests the whacck to help them meditate?

I believe that it was the researcher that asked to be treated like a normal student for the exercis that asked for the whack. That whack if not gentle. It's because that when meditating, even the experienced often fall asleep.

I understand the need for times of relaxation. My anxiety condition makes it a little more necessary than it is for the average person.

I define your concept more as contentment than peace. We can expereince it accidentally, or after a period of very hard work. Nice, but not absolutely necessary to a happy and fullfilling life. A bit necessary for me, anxiety you know. Even the best medicine needs behavioral help, don't you know.


As for the 'ego' bit, in my world view - no, the ego and the 'person' are 2 seperate entities. The spirit - that which continues on after body death - has no fear of body death, as it knows it will continue on afterwards. The ego, on the other hand, has no such concept of life after death, thus it 'lives in fear' of ending. Which has a nice practical application - no matter how shitty your life, you still try desperately to hang on to it - thus making a person live longer to achieve things. After all, if we didn't have that, and had knowledge of said LAD, then anytime things got 'too bad', we'd just top ourselves and think 'meh, I'll come back and get it right next time'.

As a "rationalist" atheist, I don't believe in spirits, so to me the ego is everything that I am and ever will be. I have no definitional need for a spirit to explain my nature, odd behavior, or any other aspect of myself.

I sometimes wish I could believe in some form of afterlife. It seems so "peaceful" and comforting. I just can't.
I honestly try to understand others' beliefs. It's just sometimes it feels like a born blind person trying to understand what colors really are and why people like or dislike certain ones.
I wish you the best of luck and hope with your personal worldviews.

[Boozy]

I've always liked the idea of reincarnation. As in, "If at first you don't succeed, try again."

I can't believe in it, given there's no evidence of it. But I could get into it, if I were a more religious-minded person. It seems more just than the Christian theory that you get one shot at life (even if it's a real short one) and then deemed worthy of an eternity in either heaven or hell.

[BlaqueKatt]

There are a plethora of people like Sly saying that they have memories/skills/etc that don't belong to them.


one of my friends explained that to me from another belief system(can't remember which one)-it's not something from "another lifetime" it's more like Deja vu, where before your soul takes it's body it sets up "signposts" or markers if you will to let you know or be aware that you are on the right pathway to achieve the goals you are supposed to in life. Take that for what you will-he was a very strange person.

[Slytovhand]

Ouch. I really don't like sciences getting taken into philosophocal or religious discussions. Karma is only cause and effect through the lens of reincarnation. We all know that cruelty can get rewarded and kindness punished in the span of a single lifetime. Physics would demand that karma work throughout eternity, not only get slapped on in between lives.



That sounds like a misinterpretation of the 'karma' word. I don't recall anywhere that it says it only works between lives.

For me, I loathe that science, philosophy and religion can't meet and discuss intelligently. Otherwise, they end up as gobbledigook. Religion becomes wishful thinking, philosophy becomes navel gazing, and science blind. Just my opinion...:D



I'm not even talking about whether my past life's personality would alter the genetics and enviromental aspects of my present life's personality.
I was talking about karma. Karma would punish me today no matter how good I was, because I "needed" to burn off the sins of "my" past.


Depends on your interpretation of karma. That's the sort of interpretation I was talking about that I don't get. It would suggest an end purpose of 'goodness' - which to me would mean a lack of balance in the end.



I believe that it was the researcher that asked to be treated like a normal student for the exercis that asked for the whack. That whack if not gentle. It's because that when meditating, even the experienced often fall asleep.

Fall asleep, get distracted, lose focus, etc. No, it's not gentle. I have found, personally, that having something to 'get away from' can help to focus. Pain, noise, light etc....


I understand the need for times of relaxation. My anxiety condition makes it a little more necessary than it is for the average person.

I define your concept more as contentment than peace. We can expereince it accidentally, or after a period of very hard work. Nice, but not absolutely necessary to a happy and fullfilling life. A bit necessary for me, anxiety you know. Even the best medicine needs behavioral help, don't you know.



Not being happy with the quality of mediation cds on the market, and because of the various things I've done in that respect - all similar, but all with slight nuances that make significant differences, I made my own meditation cd with all the bits I wanted on it. It was supposed to be tested, and then go commercial, but my testers didn't bother to commit the way they needed to. If you'd like, I can send you a copy to try. There's nothing particularly esoteric about it...


As a "rationalist" atheist, I don't believe in spirits, so to me the ego is everything that I am and ever will be. I have no definitional need for a spirit to explain my nature, odd behavior, or any other aspect of myself.


Who was it that, in reference to God, said "I have no need of that hypothesis"? Kepler?? La Place?? Anyways, true, you may not need such an explanation, but that in itself doesn't mean that it doesn't happen (yeah, I know, Ockham...). It does, however, provide explanation for other situations.



I sometimes wish I could believe in some form of afterlife. It seems so "peaceful" and comforting. I just can't.
I honestly try to understand others' beliefs. It's just sometimes it feels like a born blind person trying to understand what colors really are and why people like or dislike certain ones.
I wish you the best of luck and hope with your personal worldviews.
[/quote]

Comes down to experience. Who knows, maybe you'll have such an experience that causes you to re-adjust your perceptions and interpretations (like any other person on the planet). But I get where you're coming from... I just can not get monotheism - as Boozy said - 1 (short) life to determine the rest of eternity.. I can't fathom that!


My worldviews are working quite well in my life (just that I'm not working in well with my worldviews :p)

[Flyndaran]

That sounds like a misinterpretation of the 'karma' word. I don't recall anywhere that it says it only works between lives.
But that's obviously false. The real world is full of evil people living long and well, and inocent children dying horribly.

For me, I loathe that science, philosophy and religion can't meet and discuss intelligently. Otherwise, they end up as gobbledigook. Religion becomes wishful thinking, philosophy becomes navel gazing, and science blind. Just my opinion...:D
If something is verfiable and follows rules, no matter how complex and seemingly arbitrary, then it IS science. Science is testing and explaining the universe. Philosophy is simply thinking about it. Religion is full of statements often IN SPITE of the universe disagreeing.
Of course, we humans being curious and not often willing to take no for an answer, will think, invents etc. everything we can't prove. As long as we willingly accept that it is only wild guesswork and drop it the moment it is disproven, it's ok as far as I'm concerned. I have guesses too, though mainly about probabilities for tomorrow being a good day etc.

Depends on your interpretation of karma. That's the sort of interpretation I was talking about that I don't get. It would suggest an end purpose of 'goodness' - which to me would mean a lack of balance in the end.
Too bad that all the prevailing scientific evidence shows that entropy wins in the end. The universal clock will stop, and that's all she wrote.

Fall asleep, get distracted, lose focus, etc. No, it's not gentle. I have found, personally, that having something to 'get away from' can help to focus. Pain, noise, light etc....
A mediational focus. Though pain is the method used by "cutters" to distract from depression and low self esteem.

Not being happy with the quality of mediation cds on the market, and because of the various things I've done in that respect - all similar, but all with slight nuances that make significant differences, I made my own meditation cd with all the bits I wanted on it. It was supposed to be tested, and then go commercial, but my testers didn't bother to commit the way they needed to. If you'd like, I can send you a copy to try. There's nothing particularly esoteric about it...
But what can official meditation do that straightforward relaxation "exercises" can't?

Who was it that, in reference to God, said "I have no need of that hypothesis"? Kepler?? La Place?? Anyways, true, you may not need such an explanation, but that in itself doesn't mean that it doesn't happen (yeah, I know, Ockham...). It does, however, provide explanation for other situations.


No explanation that can't be just as, if not, more easily explained with more mundane reasons.


Comes down to experience. Who knows, maybe you'll have such an experience that causes you to re-adjust your perceptions and interpretations (like any other person on the planet). But I get where you're coming from... I just can not get monotheism - as Boozy said - 1 (short) life to determine the rest of eternity.. I can't fathom that!
You get it; you just refuse to accept it. There's no reason for anything after death. I hate it too, but I can't refuse to accept things just because of feelings.
I honestly can't. Either way it is nice to converse with someone with radically different world views in civil tones. I have difficulty talking about this with other atheists.


My worldviews are working quite well in my life (just that I'm not working in well with my worldviews :p)

[Slytovhand]

But that's obviously false. The real world is full of evil people living long and well, and inocent children dying horribly.


Ah, obviously I should have stressed the only bit... Karma works (apparently) both in life and between life. Personally, I'd love to know the rules!!! (recalling, I'm not a great fan of it...)

Science, religion and philosophy. I don't propose to replace one with the other, only that they should have a lot more to do with each other. If not, you get the situation where they clash - and in monumentally stupid ways (ie the whole evolution debate). Similarly, since we're on the topic of meditation (and reincarnation), there's no reason really why science can't involve itself in such things. It has made inroads to realising what actually happens in the brain and body - to 'prove' that meditation does actually have real effects... rather than anecdotal. Reincarnation... it can either remain in the realms of the merely religious and never ever get tested and proven... or we can actually get people who do have 'memories' and see what details they come up with that can be factually proven to be correct and impossible for them to have knowledge of any other way.


Oh - for my pain I was only referring to when I had breaks, aches, etc... all accident induced (and then went healing... another topic).

My meditation cd... probably not a lot of difference - but there is a bit that makes it (hopefully) unique! (trade secret :) )

Now, while I certainly agree in Ockham's razor having it's place, it's not always accurate. Nor are 'all things equal'. While there may always be a mundane reason for everything, that in itself isn't 'proof'. I have images that may relate to past lives... do I just automatically discount them only because there may be a mundane explanation? That's where science needs to listen to religion :)


WHAT??? Are you calling me civil??? I'll have you, sunshine!!!! *biff biff kapow*


:D


It's my philosophical attitude - try to listen and understand - makes discussion so much easier.

[Flyndaran]

Ah, obviously I should have stressed the only bit... Karma works (apparently) both in life and between life. Personally, I'd love to know the rules!!! (recalling, I'm not a great fan of it...). But if karma worked, then it either should be obvious or at least verifiable with statistical analysis. But it isn't. There is no fairness in the world that doesn't come directly from willfull actions. Everything else is relatively random.

Science, religion and philosophy. I don't propose to replace one with the other, only that they should have a lot more to do with each other. If not, you get the situation where they clash - and in monumentally stupid ways (ie the whole evolution debate). Similarly, since we're on the topic of meditation (and reincarnation), there's no reason really why science can't involve itself in such things. It has made inroads to realising what actually happens in the brain and body - to 'prove' that meditation does actually have real effects... rather than anecdotal. Reincarnation... it can either remain in the realms of the merely religious and never ever get tested and proven... or we can actually get people who do have 'memories' and see what details they come up with that can be factually proven to be correct and impossible for them to have knowledge of any other way.
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I will always prefer science to trum philosophy and religion, even if I was religious. My father was that way. Heck if he didn't suck at math he would have been a scientist. The police departments and the public of where we lived would have missed his loss though. A major problem with verifying past life memories is that they must recall information that can be verified but that the individual could not possibly have known. Hard enough in yesteryear, but today with the internet, I doubt it's possible to prove that it's iimpossible for I not to know some particular thing about the past.
Also, there's the issue that memories of past people does not have only one explanation. Reincarnation is just one. Generic psychic phenomenon is another. Psychic echoes travelling the earth until it hits someone sensitive to those particular memories is another. Souls' existance is just the LEAST likely explanation in my opinion.


Meditation has been studied. So far the only things learned was that it is a perfectly possible brain state with an abundance of alpha waves akin to just waking up. The only interesting part is that it is generally maintained much longer than normal. I may even label it the ultimate relaxation technique, but nothing special otherwise.
Oh - for my pain I was only referring to when I had breaks, aches, etc... all accident induced (and then went healing... another topic)..

I assumed so, it's just that it hit a nerve. I had a thanfully short term problem with depression and cutting in my late teens.

My meditation cd... probably not a lot of difference - but there is a bit that makes it (hopefully) unique! (trade secret :) ).
Sadly, doesn't everyone say that? But personally, I am having a wonderful peaceful time with my new medication. The difference between pre-drug cocktail and now cannot be overstated. I'm ecstatic just not having to tread water, metaphorically speaking without searching for ways to fly. I hope you understand my meaning.

Now, while I certainly agree in Ockham's razor having it's place, it's not always accurate. Nor are 'all things equal'. While there may always be a mundane reason for everything, that in itself isn't 'proof'. I have images that may relate to past lives... do I just automatically discount them only because there may be a mundane explanation? That's where science needs to listen to religion :).
Nothing should be automatically discounted until verifiably proven false. The fact that real scientific people do so often, is a fault in them, not the scientific method. Proof requires no other likely explanation. We must search out and prove every other LIKELY possibility false, then and, only then, can we say that some particular explanation is almost certainly the correct one.

I'm willing to entertain nearly anything for the sake of an experiment. I would actually be pleasantly surprised to see data that contradicts my expectations. I wish every scientist thought that way. It would keep so much data from being unconsciously manipulated toward the expected banal and sometimes false results.

WHAT??? Are you calling me civil??? I'll have you, sunshine!!!! *biff biff kapow*.


:D

Batman visual sound effects back at ya'. :)


It's my philosophical attitude - try to listen and understand - makes discussion so much easier.

Hee. It's my scientific attitude to listen and understand as much as possible.
Meeting in the middle despite our different starting points.