One of many reasons...

[Amethyst Hunter]

...the Catholic Church needs to be permanently abolished. (Or at least forced to relinquish their tax-exempt status, since they're so bent on meddling in politics where they have no business being)

Note: This is not about Catholicism per se, but specifically the institution itself that claims to be the head of the religion. I think the Church is and has been corrupt as hell (no pun intended) for ages, not to mention it's bloody misogynistic, and its borderline stone-aged thinking has just got to go.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm - I find it very interesting how the leader in this case is focusing his wrath on everybody BUT the rapist scumbag who is responsible for the whole situation in the first place. This poor little girl is 9 YEARS OLD, already suffered one indignity, and now she can't even talk to her own mother lest *she* get excommunicated as well. (And before the anti-abortion stuff starts, her doctor specifically said that there was *no* way the child could have safely carried to term, much less given birth, so abortion *was* a medical necessity in this case.)

[Rapscallion]

That sort of thing would make me not want to be a part of a church that demanded such from its followers - were I one.

Rapscallion

[Talon]

Excommunicated?

Once the child understands everything that transpired, she should be excommunicating herself. "Bless you father, for thou hast sinned..."

What good are condemnations from such men?

[Seshat]

Martin Luther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther), we need you!

[tropicsgoddess]

This is exactly why I don't practice the religion I was baptized in (Catholicism).

[tabbyblack13]

Some of the beliefs are important but a book written by Man to control others is wrong. The bible is a book of morals that have been written and rewritten time and time again.

This poor girl had no option and the Church need to get a grip with reality. A nine year old girl can't carry a child full term unless the body is abnormally large. I don't care if the child is in Brazil, India, South Africa, or America. A child should not have to bear this burden. I do believed the *beeping* bastard should be strung up and various tools tried out on him.

[Evandril]

The part that gets to me the worst...there is no indication that the rapist was excommunicated.

[Slytovhand]

I had a really insane thought today. JC said that a new covenant was created, one in which the only thing humans need to do was worship God and love each other. The idea of judgement should be God's alone.

In this case, I don't think any church or religion should indicate that a human is unable to achieve a connection with divinity.


I think the priest would have been far better off just stating that he was a moron and had no connection with human values, rather than making some sort of religious comment :p

[Lace Neil Singer]

Where in the bible does it forbid abortion? In any case, I guess the rapist was spared excommunication cuz he's a man, and it's a woman's point in life, even if said woman is a poor little girl, to bear sons for men. :rolleyes:

[MadMike]

I'm against abortion in most cases. However, I have no problem with it in cases of rape, or where having it will seriously injure or kill the woman (or girl in this case.) And it's definitely a case of the former, and most likely a case of the latter as well.

My reaction was the same as the OP's: Why is the church making so much noise about the doctor who provided the abortion, and yet silent about the rapist?

[Talon]

In any case, I guess the rapist was spared excommunication cuz he's a man, and it's a woman's point in life, even if said woman is a poor little girl, to bear sons for men. :rolleyes:

Only sons? Wouldn't that mean if everything went according to plan, the world would run out of daughters to bear new sons? I guess that means Adam will have to spare another rib :p

[Lace Neil Singer]

If you read the first chapters of the bible, there is no mention whatsoever of there being any women born. XD They mention the men having wives, but where the bloody hell did they all come from? :p

[Amethyst Hunter]

If you read the first chapters of the bible, there is no mention whatsoever of there being any women born. XD They mention the men having wives, but where the bloody hell did they all come from? :p

Women didn't count in those times (and one might feasibly argue that we STILL don't count, in a lot of societies). :( It's amazing that any mention of women was made at all considering the stories of Deborah and Esther, but then they were probably only granted special status because they were there to - you guessed it - serve the men in some capacity. (Deborah was a prophetess if I'm not mistaken, and her insight was so important that the leader of an Israelite army refused to go into battle without her. Esther was given away in marriage to a king who was hellbent on nailing the Jews; her strategy was able to spare them a death sentence and a traitorous relative got offed instead.)

Read yesterday that a senior dipshit - I mean, official - from the Vatican is backing the Brazilian church official who called for the excommunications. Color me not surprised. I can't wait till the Vatican is relegated to an impotent relic of ancient history. :mad:

[protege]

Read yesterday that a senior dipshit - I mean, official - from the Vatican is backing the Brazilian church official who called for the excommunications. Color me not surprised. I can't wait till the Vatican is relegated to an impotent relic of ancient history. :mad:

That doesn't surprise me. These are, after all, the same people who tried to cover up the recent sex scandals. Rather than deal with the problem, they tried to pretend it didn't exist...by moving accused priests to different parishes, and/or by paying victims to keep their mouths shut. That all fell apart when the negative publicity forced the Vatican to actually do something.

My problem with the Catholic church, is that it's always been slow in adapting to changing conditions. They're still teaching "abstinence-only" when it comes to sex education, and then can't understand the rise in pregnancies. Telling someone not to do something is only going to make them curious...and do it anyway. Instead of telling children not to have sex, or telling them they'll go to hell if they do...isn't helping matters.

I hope nobody thinks I'm bashing the Catholic *religion.* No, my problem is with the *institution* behind it.

[Flyndaran]

...
I hope nobody thinks I'm bashing the Catholic *religion.* No, my problem is with the *institution* behind it.

Why not? I hate how I'm not allowed to call any religion on its cruelty and self-interest no matter what its followers do. No other organization gets that freedom.

To me, religion has always been, at its base, a communal excuse to do what its followers were already going to do.
Anyone actually fully following any religion's main books would be arrested, looked on as crazy, and bombared with all the, "That's not what that/he meant." BS.

[Evandril]

I hope nobody thinks I'm bashing the Catholic *religion.* No, my problem is with the *institution* behind it.

Why not? I hate how I'm not allowed to call any religion on its cruelty and self-interest no matter what its followers do. No other organization gets that freedom.


They aren't saying you aren't...Just that *they* are not trying to do so with their post. Personally, I've found more I detest about the catholic church than I have about the LDS, and I'd most likely get ridden out of Utah on rails ;)

[Slytovhand]

To me, religion has always been, at its base, a communal excuse to do what its followers were already going to do.
Anyone actually fully following any religion's main books would be arrested, looked on as crazy, and bombared with all the, "That's not what that/he meant." BS.

While I know what you're getting at, for some people it really does make them change the way the see the world - and for the better as well. There really are some 'saints' out there, and it was a religious experience that took them there.

[Talon]

While I know what you're getting at, for some people it really does make them change the way the see the world - and for the better as well. There really are some 'saints' out there, and it was a religious experience that took them there.

Maybe. I'd like to think that such 'saints' are more aligned to the words of G'Kar of B5:

"There is no 'most holy' here. There is only me."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaaWMoSsDVw

[Slytovhand]

Ta'lon... I watched that episode (again - just bought the box set) last night :p

Gotta love the 'first lesson'.

[anriana]

Women didn't count in those times (and one might feasibly argue that we STILL don't count, in a lot of societies). :( It's amazing that any mention of women was made at all considering the stories of Deborah and Esther, but then they were probably only granted special status because they were there to - you guessed it - serve the men in some capacity. (Deborah was a prophetess if I'm not mistaken, and her insight was so important that the leader of an Israelite army refused to go into battle without her. Esther was given away in marriage to a king who was hellbent on nailing the Jews; her strategy was able to spare them a death sentence and a traitorous relative got offed instead.)

I don't remember Deborah's story as well, but Esther's whole role was basically "look pretty and do what your uncle tells you," which makes it even worse.

[Sylvia727]

Hmmm, I know there was one woman in the Bible (Ruth, maybe?) who snuck into the enemy's camp and cut off the commander's head. Adam's first wife, Lilith, isn't in the Bible at all, but her story is that she was made from clay, the same as Adam, but refused to submit to him since they were made equal. Adam threw a hissy fit, and she cleared out of the Garden of Eden. Adam's next wife was made from a rib, so that she would be properly submissive and a helpmeet. Lilith went on to sleep with demons, spawn the first vampires (lilin), and try to murder Adam's and Eve's children. So depending on who you ask she's either an evil rebel, the first feminist, or both.

[AFPheonix]

Ruth wasn't involved in any battles. She was a widow who managed to catch the eye of Boaz.

You may be thinking of Jael, who allowed fleeing enemy general Sisera into her tent for refuge. She gave him some warm milk to drink and covered him with a blanket, and when he was asleep, she hammered a tent peg through his temple into the ground under his head.

Yeah, I happen to like the book of Judges, what of it?

[Slytovhand]

Ruth wasn't involved in any battles. She was a widow who managed to catch the eye of Boaz.

You may be thinking of Jael, who allowed fleeing enemy general Sisera into her tent for refuge. She gave him some warm milk to drink and covered him with a blanket, and when he was asleep, she hammered a tent peg through his temple into the ground under his head.

Yeah, I happen to like the book of Judges, what of it?

Was she scorned in any way?? Cos if not, then I'd be really worried when she was...

[AFPheonix]

No, it didn't give much motivation on her part, other than she was sympathetic to the Israelites.
It may have been a move to gain favor with the new up and coming power in the area.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Where in the bible does it forbid abortion? :

I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

However, it's pretty clear on harm to children.

[Boozy]

The Bible doesn't say anything about stem cell research either, but hearing some of these Christians talk about it, you'd think there was an entire book forbidding it.

As technology progresses, many churches find themselves just making up stuff as they go along. Bible v. 2.0 would be helpful. :D

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

However, it's pretty clear on harm to children.

Going back and reading my last post, I realized that it comes across completely different than I intended it to.

What I meant to say was that as far as I know, there is no mention of abortion. So the idea that religious right gets so worked up about that baffles me.

However, the Bible DOES mention that harm to children...and I interpret that to mean children that are running around here and now...is a very, very bad thing.

So for this idiot to excommunicate a whole pack of people for trying to help this little girl, while not even mentioning the rapist, is utterly, utterly inexplicable to me.

I'm a Christian, and I'm a mom, and I believe life is sacred. I am also pro-choice.

[TTAZ]

Hmmm, I know there was one woman in the Bible (Ruth, maybe?) who snuck into the enemy's camp and cut off the commander's head.

I believe you're thinking of Judith slaying Holofernes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holofernes

Holofernes was an Assyrian general who invaded a town, the town almost fell and a Hebrew woman named Judith seduced the general, got him drunk, sliced off his noggin and took it to the home team who then saved the town from the invaders.

[Amethyst Hunter]

What I meant to say was that as far as I know, there is no mention of abortion. So the idea that religious right gets so worked up about that baffles me.

Simply put, it's a wedge issue. Much like gay marriage and other heavily-politicized things, it's used chiefly as a way to divide and conquer. If we're so busy squabbling over this kind of stuff, then we're also supposedly too blind to notice all the other nasty shit they're doing.

It also serves as a way to limit women and confine them to what sexists believe should be a woman's true place: that of subservient. If you have no control over your own body, you're more likely to have more kids that you may or may not want, especially if you've been raised in an environment where it's commonly taught that women have no other purpose other than to serve men and have their children. If you're too busy raising a brood, you're too busy to get any...ideas. And what any religion is always focused on is the numbers game: the more 'followers' you have, the better your chances of 'winning the game', so to speak.

The Biblical verse (among others) they commonly use to justify their anti-abortion stance is that bit about "before you were formed in the womb I knew you" - which, if you read between the lines there, God is explicitly speaking to *one* person, not necessarily the entire human race (though this is of course open for discussion). Same thing as with the whole "go forth and multiply" edict handed to Adam and Eve, who if you subscribe to that doctrine were literally the only two people on the planet, so of course it made sense for them to have a lot of kids if the earth was to be populated.

And on a side note, this is something that puzzles me: if everybody on earth originally came from Adam and Eve, then wouldn't that mean that their kids would've had to resort to...incest, in order to multiply? That's kinda gross, you know?

However, the Bible DOES mention that harm to children...and I interpret that to mean children that are running around here and now...is a very, very bad thing.

That's how I see it. I really believe that if children were taken better care of (and by that I mean never abused, and properly disciplined in basic manners and educated, and most of all truly wanted and loved), there would not be so many problems in the world. (Granted, childrearing is a crapshoot in that even the best parents can wind up having rotten kids through no fault of their own, but still, good parenting counts for a LOT)

It's interesting to note that among the prison hierarchy, child molesters are considered the lowest of the low, and even the worst cons in there - who've done all sorts of atrocities - will vie for a crack at them, possibly even kill them.

So for this idiot to excommunicate a whole pack of people for trying to help this little girl, while not even mentioning the rapist, is utterly, utterly inexplicable to me.

I imagine it's inexplicable to anyone with a) common sense, and b) a heart.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Here's a good site if you're looking at parts of the bible that don't make sense: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ They touch on the "where did the women come from?" bit too. Also, I'm guessing that the following was used as a reason for the atrocity:

Dinah's brothers, to justify the massacre of a town for the rape of their sister, say: "Should he deal with our sister as with a harlot?" To the author of Genesis, rape is a crime against the honor of men rather than against a woman. 34:31

[protege]

Simply put, it's a wedge issue. Much like gay marriage and other heavily-politicized things, it's used chiefly as a way to divide and conquer. If we're so busy squabbling over this kind of stuff, then we're also supposedly too blind to notice all the other nasty shit they're doing.


That's *exactly* why this crap keeps coming up...and why certain "Christian" idiots--Fred Phelps, for one--try to use it to further their own agendas. They know it will get people riled up, and distract them from the real issues.

I usually do lean towards the conservative side of things. However, I do think that gay people should be allowed to marry. I might not agree with their lifestyle, but who am I to deny their happiness? Also, I don't see what the big deal is over what we call it. Don't want to call it a "marriage?" Fine, call it a "civil union," but extend the same benefits.

And on a side note, this is something that puzzles me: if everybody on earth originally came from Adam and Eve, then wouldn't that mean that their kids would've had to resort to...incest, in order to multiply? That's kinda gross, you know?

Now that's just fucking nasty! But, to bring up Phelps again...it's already happening in his "congregation." What bugs me about that, is he rails against the sexual practices of everyone else on Earth, but somehow ignores the obvious incest inside his own family. WTF?

[Lace Neil Singer]

Also, Adam and Eve only had two SONS. Cain and Abel, remember? How the flipping hell do you get a human race from them? O_o The bible mentions that Cain had a wife, but where did she come from?

[Rapscallion]

Where in the bible does it forbid abortion?

It's probably covered by that whole 'thou shalt not kill' bit.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Dinah's brothers, to justify the massacre of a town for the rape of their sister, say: "Should he deal with our sister as with a harlot?" To the author of Genesis, rape is a crime against the honor of men rather than against a woman. 34:31


A lot of men see it that way, sadly. They turn it into an insult against them, not a trauma that happened to the women they supposedly love.

It really is shamful, that attitude. And it doesn't help things.


Protege: Phelps is no more a Christian than I am a werewolf. I would bet that deep down, even Phelps himself knows he's not a Christian, that he's just using that as a front. I'm not saying that great evil is never perpetrated by those who profess and even believe that they are Christian. It is. But Phelps is so far beyond the pale that if I found out that even he knew he was just using faith as a smokescreen, I would not be suprised at all.

[protege]

Protege: Phelps is no more a Christian than I am a werewolf. I would bet that deep down, even Phelps himself knows he's not a Christian, that he's just using that as a front.

That's why I put Christian in quotes. He's more of an *extremist* than a Christian. He, and people like him *do not* speak for all conservatives. Unfortunately, those fools are a very small, yet annoyingly loud minority...who makes us all look bad. Instead, I think he's someone who hides behind the cloak of religion to justify his actions. He won't be the first, nor will he be the last idiot to do that.

[Evandril]

'Tis why I used xtian in naming idiots like that...though the first time I use it, I try and explain it does NOT refer to 'real' Christians, to make my meaning clear :)

[lordlundar]

And on a side note, this is something that puzzles me: if everybody on earth originally came from Adam and Eve, then wouldn't that mean that their kids would've had to resort to...incest, in order to multiply? That's kinda gross, you know?

Always a point I like to bring up on the bible-bashers who scream "heathen!" at me and similar.:p