Gay Marriage

[Wingates_Hellsing]

I particularly like the unending 'why hasn't god smitten XXX?' cluster, and the bit with non-sequitur.

On that note, even if there was more crime, we could nail them with post hoc ergo propter hoc!

Logical fallacies rule

[Nyoibo]

That pretty much sums it up, I love it.

[smileyeagle1021]

I just found a good link for this debate.

http://www.geocities.com/patrick_far...hart-large.png

there it is, the gay marriage debate in flow chart form. Enjoy

[Slytovhand]

and at least the people here are civilized

Excuse me!! I resent that! I'm proud of my barbaric attitudes, thank you very much!




Actually, Fireheart, I thought I heard something on the radio the other day from one of the federal pollies indicating an opening up of the laws to allow for same sex marriages.. (hang on, memory coming back... no, not marriages, but allowing for same rights for workplaces.. sick leave, carers leave, etc etc... so, not quite the same - but heading there).

As for the comments at the bottom (which I promptly ignored past the first page)... meh - bigots etc everywhere...

[fireheart17]

fireheart... I am truly sadenned by reading those comments. I had hoped that Utah truly was the worst place in the civilized world when it came to bigotry like that... the fact that there is worse means we are so much further behind than I had originally thought.

Some of the other boards comment on how much of a backwater Adelaide is. While I don't disagree with them, I take what I can and use it.
What really disgusts me (but is a bit off-topic) is how people use the "we need change, we're not being progressive" argument towards anything that affects retail workers, teachers and just about anything else except their own careers...namely ensuring that things are actually WORSE off for us than for them. (one of those was forcing big box retailers to open on public holidays...what, like you don't have the other 364 days a year to shop?)

Lately, I've noticed that my views are getting sidelined on there, so I've come to here as it's a lot better in the long run and at least the people here are civilized .

Gay marriage wise, my original post on there (which I think has been sidelined) was a way to ensure that everybody remains happy: not all weddings are required to be in a church, and not all couples want to be in a church, religious or not. So gay people, sure they can get married, since it's more or less a legal agreement, just the church does not have to perform the marriage. They can get married, but not in a church, essentially. Basically, it opens up the entire state to them, and I don't think I've ever attended a wedding in a church. Ever. (two were outdoors, with the receptions nearby, one was in a hotel function room and the other was in another function centre). I know that my views will probably be nitpicked, but I thought this might open up some ideas for people. To those who are openly gay here, what do you think? Would it work?

[smileyeagle1021]

fireheart... I am truly sadenned by reading those comments. I had hoped that Utah truly was the worst place in the civilized world when it came to bigotry like that... the fact that there is worse means we are so much further behind than I had originally thought.

[fireheart17]

Hey, thought this article might highlight gay marriage in Australia...

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/s...9-2682,00.html

Read the comments though. I am just simply STUNNED by them. Although I had to laugh at the parallel between my state and the Bible Belt states in the US.

[Slytovhand]

they are also posted to my facebook page

Awwww... FaceBook???

(nope, can't get that at work either )



(but I'm home now )

AFP, I'd take a shot and guess that if s/he was referring to your post, it was in relation to the polygamy/slippery slope bit - and that's only presuming it's in reference to your post! (which, from what I can read, didn't have any snideness in it..)

[AFPheonix]

HB 3476 vs. SB 1000

http://landru.leg.state.or.us/05reg/...476.intro.html

http://landru.leg.state.or.us/05reg/...000.intro.html

HB 3476 wasn't perfect by any means, and certainly needed tweaking to improve legal responsibilities. I think it was on the right track though.

And that's it, I'm done. You can continue to make snide remarks in my absence.

Cheers.

After reading the text of the two bills, I have come to the conclusion that the one that included other relationships would have been a nightmare to hold up in court since it was so broad. I can see why it wasn't chosen. Probably more pointed legislation could be written to accommodate what that bill was trying to do, and I think the second bill is an example of that more pointed legislation.

I'm not sure what part of my replies to you were seen as snide. I'm usually pretty painfully blunt.

[BlaqueKatt]

Awww.... Youtube???

they are also posted to my facebook page

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Protecting the minority is a key value in our government (or at least it should be) as it is a key value provided for in the constitution, just look at the senate.

It's our duty as americans to help make this nation as free as possible, for everyone not just yourself.

[Boozy]

Again I state that marriage is a public/social institution and should be decided upon by the public. The only way to get someone to vote your way is to show them that you have taken their fears into account and tried to address them, not to bully or force it upon them.

Why should anyone have to convince others to grant them basic civil rights? The mere idea is antithetical to what America is supposed to be and what it is supposed to stand for.

The very idea that this was voted on to begin with should be considered insulting to all Americans. If the people of America voted overwhelmingly in favour of imprisoning you without trial, does that make it right? Because the justice system is just a public institution, after all. So what the heck, let the mob rule.

[smileyeagle1021]

Smiley,

Your whole response makes my last few points exactly. You know nothing about me. You don't know my political values, my religious values, or even where I'm from. You don't read all the relevant information in post (not your fault, but it didn't stop you from explicating based on your suppositions), and then proceed to make personal attacks on my values, education, and so on.

How did it feel?
I've gone back and added an apology to the post, but I'd still like to know, as you read it originally, how did it feel?
Do you know what I see every day I turn on the news or open a paper?
I see yet another conservative politician or evangelical religious leader, who knowing nothing about me, tells the entire world that I am a sinner, that I am vile, that who I am is disgusting, that I don't even deserve basic protections such as protection against discrimination in the workplace (legally, if one of my coworkers told my boss that I had told him I was gay, and my boss decided he had moral objections to homosexuality, he'd have grounds to fire me without recourse in this state). At least once a week when I'm taking the train to work rather than driving I'll hear hateful vile words about how the gays are destroying America, and some even going so far as saying wouldn't it be nice if we would all just kill ourselves. I've before when getting into my car (which has two equality bumper stickers, one from the HRC one from Equality Utah, and a 'gay geeks are sexy' bumper sticker) had people driving past who know nothing more than the fact that I'm gay and I think geeks are attractive yell out things like "burn in hell, fucking fag".
So tell me, how did you feel reading my reply?
Now imagine rather than one petulant poster on fratching saying it that it was something common and considered socially acceptable in the region in which you live. Or even take it one step further, imagine you are the petulant poster on fratching who hears those insults every day.
I doubt very much that you could handle being, to use your own words, demonized like that for very long before you start demonizing those who demonized you. It's a vicious circle, no doubt about it.

Oh, and for the record, at least in Utah trying to show our virtue has gotten us precisely NOTHING. Last year we attempted to pass the Common Ground initiative, we approached it as "look, we know that we can never come to agreement on whether or not we are moral people, but surely you must agree that we deserve to at the very least be protected from workplace discrimination, after all, we work just as hard as you do, surely you must be able to see we should be allowed to visit our loved ones in the hospital, whether or not you agree with who we love, we care for them just as much as you care for your loved ones, and if it's not too much to ask, we'd like to be able to set up our own way of handling probate in the event of our partners death, this wouldn't affect you in any way, but would help us greatly"
Would you like to guess what happened to it? The legislature very promptly said "the gays don't have morals, these laws are giving them too much." One of those legislatures, who went so far as to say he wished we could have laws taking away even more protections against gays is a Bishop within the LDS church... using the church's own standards, that makes him something of a spokesperson for the church (all church leadership positions are called of by God and serve at His will). And while demonizing the LDS church might also get us nothing, it will at least hurt those who have hurt us (for the record, I fully support a complete government investigation and audit on the church's involvement in the Prop 8 campaign, and I have emailed legislatures asking them to start the process, even though I know in this state that will never happen... it's human nature, if you are going to take me down, I will do my best to take you down with me)

[Slytovhand]

*runs off to make bumper stickers*

'I'm gay, I vote ..... and I shoot'

Me and Ms X would like to get married - we're both consenting adults.. 2 of us! Cool - we can get married!

Later, me and Ms Y would like to get married. We're both consenting adults.. 2 of us! Cool we can get married...

Ooooh! Polygamy! (ha! I got away with it! And it'd be legal too,


yeah I know - there'd be a technicality, but hey.....

Panther - I get where you're coming from!

There is more to the issue than just a religious opinion, and bigotry in action (although, I think it's a fair argument to say that the legal issues are also based on that discrimination.. just because a marriage 'has been' such and such a way, and we've got legal issues which are attached to those ways, is no reason things can't changed).

And yes, you're right - people's minds aren't going to change by being bullied (or intimidated, nor insulted) into changing. Phelps won't change his mindset by screaming right back at him. It can only happen when the 2 (or more) sides sit down, and get to a basic point of agreement... which is that human beings - all of them (well, except for the rapists and murders and child molesters) are all equal - even in 'God's' eyes (after all, 'He' did a great job of creating us this way.. FTR, I'm not a christian, but it makes no sense to bash you guys all over the heads with reincarnation if you're not going to believe it... so I'll base my arguments on what you will believe). Also, fear is a massive motivator in this. Who (on both sides) knows all the points and arguments being considered by the governments... and who just assumes??

[pantherquest2000]

I am an Oregonian too. I can't seem to find the text of either of those bills. Care to post them for me?

HB 3476 vs. SB 1000

http://landru.leg.state.or.us/05reg/...476.intro.html

http://landru.leg.state.or.us/05reg/...000.intro.html

HB 3476 wasn't perfect by any means, and certainly needed tweaking to improve legal responsibilities. I think it was on the right track though.

And that's it, I'm done. You can continue to make snide remarks in my absence.

Cheers.