Atheist messages displace CA park nativity scenes

[Duelist925]

I think that the rabbi gets a pass.

^-.-^

I honestly kinda wonder how he feels on the subject.

[bunnyboy]

The churchs here may be completely delusional idiots, but the atheists here are intentionally being shit disturbing pricks too. Everyone involved is just a dickhead here. -.-

Yeah, pretty much.

No side of angels here . . . pun intended

I think that the rabbi gets a pass.

^-.-^

I Think Andara hit the nail on the head. The only one not being an asshat in the whole thing is the Rabbi, could possibly be because The Festival of Lights is more like some random church based holiday, rather than a BIG HUGE important holiday.

Either way both sides could learn a little something from the B'nai Adonai there.

[Skunkle]

Let me begin by stating that I'm Christian. Not that it really matters much.

There was a lottery for the spaces, and a group of atheists and similar supporters banded together to get some of the spaces, apparently incensed that the displays had, in the past, been predominantly Christian.

The problems are thus:
--The notion that there was bias because the displays were usually mostly or all Christian is based on the argument of the militant atheist that any and everything pertaining to religion is dangerous, do you hear me, DANGEROUS!! That religion has caused a great deal of harm in the world is indisputable, but it's simply many really fucked-up people looking for a blanket excuse to cover their atrocities, hatred and violence. Religion isn't by far the only cover that's been used. Simply put, if atheists want to monopolize the spaces, and they CAN do this legally, they have a right to do so.

But again, on the "Religion is harmful, do you hear me, harmful! Kill it with fire!!" thing, this group has seemingly done a similar format to PETA - "there's no such thing as bad publicity" - that is, rather than trying to present an informative display about their opinions, they've resorted to simplistic displays that basically are intended to make fun of those who are religious. This won't win them any supporters who might have been on-the-fence.

The other problem is getting eighteen slots and then only using three. Again, this looks on its face like an intentional dick move; I think the general message is probably something like the following: You Xtians would've taken eighteen slots to explain your message, which amounts to, "On this day, or not, some guy we think was a god was born in an impossible way in some family-sanitized, idealized manger scene." It only takes us three spaces to explain our message, which is, "You guys are STUPID for believing that shit! Kick it to the curb, get your head out of the clouds, and quit being idiots already!"

In other words, I think the message was intentionally presented in a dickish way. I think this may be akin to a guy I know who likes to call up his cell phone customer service and rip the person to pieces verbally when something isn't right; I've explained to him why this is unlikely to make them want to fix the issue, and he says, "I don't give a damn if they fix it! I just wanna SCREAM at someone 'cuz I'm pissed off and it makes me feel good!"

[Rapscallion]

Can I ask what there was in the messages put up by the atheists that said the 'harmful, kill it with fire' part please? I don't remember anything quite as combative as that being put forward. Can you explain where they said that religious people were stupid? I can't see that in the article posted.

Rapscallion

[Skunkle]

Well, I was more speaking about the general militant atheist vibe being "Religion in all forms is a horrible evil and all who choose to believe could use a good whack with a clue-by-four."

The general message in the displays themselves was nonetheless not a good way of putting a message across. Admittedly, to those with strong faith, absolutely any direction by which one might attempt to approach the possibility that religion and deities are false is likely to be met with suspicion at best, but essentially saying, "Uh, yeah, just so we're both clear, Jesus IS a myth. Got it?" is barely even trying to open any sort of discourse that might begin with, "Maybe it wouldn't hurt to just have a chat with these guys, see why they think what they do."

Again, the fact that they used only a few of the slots they specifically requested seems to say a number of things at once, at the top:
--"We only need three slots to say what would take you eighteen"
...and...
"Since we've finally gotten the chance to put our message up here, we're going to put NOTHING in most of the slots just to spite you and piss you off. Take that!"

The message of "These things (Jesus, satan, Poseidon, etc.) are myths. Millions of people KNOW this is true." seems to be outwardly saying, "Are you one of those millions, or are you living a lie?"

The "Happy Solstice" is A-OK with me. Doesn't bug me a bit (except-- see below). This IS the time of the Solstice. Technically, loads of holidays occur at this time. Also technically, Solstice is often celebrated by pagan faiths, which DO believe in deities after a fashion, and are thus not really atheist. Thing is, IF this board was indeed put up by the atheists--- considering it's a celebration often held by a religion, it also would appear that posting this was an attempt to ruffle the feathers of the Christians.

I'll just end with this: Any one group should be limited to three slots. No group of any kind should be allowed to divide up into multiple bidding groups for the purpose of getting more slots. And if you DO get your three, any you don't use should be passed to another bidder. This would fix a lot of the issues; this being their first year trying this, I have a feeling that, next year, they'll have a lot of the kinks ironed out.

[Rapscallion]

Well, I was more speaking about the general militant atheist vibe being "Religion in all forms is a horrible evil and all who choose to believe could use a good whack with a clue-by-four."

In that case, what you put looks horribly like you were looking for whatever you could find to be offended by rather than the case at hand, even inventing it.

The general message in the displays themselves was nonetheless not a good way of putting a message across. Admittedly, to those with strong faith, absolutely any direction by which one might attempt to approach the possibility that religion and deities are false is likely to be met with suspicion at best, but essentially saying, "Uh, yeah, just so we're both clear, Jesus IS a myth. Got it?" is barely even trying to open any sort of discourse that might begin with, "Maybe it wouldn't hurt to just have a chat with these guys, see why they think what they do."

I don't see what else they could have put up. What was reported in the article was reasonably mild, all done and said. What atheist message would you have deemed acceptable?

"Since we've finally gotten the chance to put our message up here, we're going to put NOTHING in most of the slots just to spite you and piss you off. Take that!"

Oh, I don't know. Leaving empty displays did in fact demonstrate what they believe in.

The message of "These things (Jesus, satan, Poseidon, etc.) are myths. Millions of people KNOW this is true." seems to be outwardly saying, "Are you one of those millions, or are you living a lie?"

What I get from this comment is that you're taking quite a bit of offence over this, over and above what was actually available. I'm not sure that it's warranted.

The "Happy Solstice" is A-OK with me. Doesn't bug me a bit (except-- see below). This IS the time of the Solstice. Technically, loads of holidays occur at this time. Also technically, Solstice is often celebrated by pagan faiths, which DO believe in deities after a fashion, and are thus not really atheist. Thing is, IF this board was indeed put up by the atheists--- considering it's a celebration often held by a religion, it also would appear that posting this was an attempt to ruffle the feathers of the Christians.

Tell me something? Do you know if these display areas are available at any other time of year for other faiths? The jewish new year and yom kippur celebrations are around September, give or take. Are they available then? Eid, marking the end of ramadan, is around August. Were those displays available for religion at that time? Diwali is September/October. Were there spaces then for religious displays?

If the answer to the above is 'no', then the whole purpose of those displays was for the christian religion, marring the whole separation of church and state thing.

I'll just end with this: Any one group should be limited to three slots. No group of any kind should be allowed to divide up into multiple bidding groups for the purpose of getting more slots. And if you DO get your three, any you don't use should be passed to another bidder. This would fix a lot of the issues; this being their first year trying this, I have a feeling that, next year, they'll have a lot of the kinks ironed out.

I suspect the organisers have already taken the outrage on board.

Rapscallion

[Iseeyouthere]

In my opinion, the message has sunk in deep.

Chris once could have all the chocolate off the plate, only because he put his hand up first. But someone put their hand up before him one day and now he is crying becasue he won't get any chocolate and demands to have a share of the chocolate.

He watches as someone else eats only a quarter of the chocolate and throws the rest away. He is angered because they didn't eat it all, therefore, he should of gotten the remainder.
He ignores the fact that he never shared.

So how is this example any different from what the Atheists did to the Christians?

[Andara Bledin]

So how is this example any different from what the Atheists did to the Christians?

How about from the base premise on? Let's break it down...

Chris once could have all the chocolate off the plate, only because he put his hand up first.

Actually, based on the fact that there was a coalition of churches, Chris isn't a singular person, but a group of people, a club as it were. And it wasn't that they put their hands up first so much as they're were pretty much the only ones to put their hands up at all.

But someone put their hand up before him one day and now he is crying becasue he won't get any chocolate and demands to have a share of the chocolate.

The issue isn't that someone else got the chocolate, but that they took all of the chocolate they could and then threw most of it on the ground and stomped on it, just so that they wouldn't have to share. It's not Chris that was being greedy or childish, here.

He is angered because they didn't eat it all, therefore, he should of gotten the remainder.

Somebody should have had the opportunity to use the spots that were taken just to spite the other kids who wanted in on the action. Chris wasn't the only one at the plate every year, which seems to be forgotten every time someone wants to paint Chris as a greedy jerk.

He ignores the fact that he never shared.

Shared with whom, exactly? As evidenced by the creation of a lottery this year to handle the fact that there were more applicants than spaces (based on the allowance of up to nine per person), it's patently obvious that there wasn't any competition to share with before this time, so someone being upset about the lack of sharing is either ignorant or looking for something to be angry about.

What was done was petty, childish, selfish, and ultimately counter-productive to their goals.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

What was done was petty, childish, selfish, and ultimately counter-productive to their goals.

I don't agree.

The whole display thing is apparently open to all, for religious displays if they want. This is despite there being quite a number of religious celebrations at other times of the year for non-christian faiths. I don't think there's been a similar allowance for displays at other times of the year. I've not been able to find anything out about that.

What better way to display a lack of faith in the divine than by not displaying anything? Of course, they'd have to get a message out to explain why, which is what the few they did display in do.

What I do see is a bunch of theists all butt-hurt because their team was complacent and lazy, and got caught out - they didn't put much in for the lottery involved assumedly because they reckoned they'd get the lion's share as usual. Seems to be quite a few claims that special treatment for religions is deserved or required.

If you want petty, childish, and stamping on chocolate, the last area of this article on CNN about this suggests that someone's been vandalising the atheist message. I can't see that atheists would have done that. Could have been rowdy teenagers who left the religious ones alone, though. Teenagers are an obvious source of ire, of course.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

I can't see that atheists would have done that.

Why not? Atheists have vandalized churches, so I don't see a few displays in a public park being any more protected.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

Atheists vandalising atheist messages?

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

Sorry - Thought you were saying you couldn't see atheists vandalizing had they been religious messages, not atheists vandalizing their own.

Tangentially related, it's a shame that one of the atheist displays is propagating misinformation. The one claiming to be a quote from Jefferson is no such thing - merely a piece of oft-repeated folklore.

^-.-^

[Rapscallion]

It's admitted in one of the two articles that they can't be sure who came up with the quote.

Of course, glass houses and stones and all that...

Rapscallion

[wolfie]

I'll just end with this: Any one group should be limited to three slots. No group of any kind should be allowed to divide up into multiple bidding groups for the purpose of getting more slots. And if you DO get your three, any you don't use should be passed to another bidder. This would fix a lot of the issues; this being their first year trying this, I have a feeling that, next year, they'll have a lot of the kinks ironed out.

The city definitely screwed up, too. When there are more applicants than spaces, no applicant should be allowed more than ONE space. If there are fewer applicants, but the spaces can't be divided evenly (i.e. 21 spaces, 4 applicants), the "leftover" spaces should go by lottery, one space per drawing. Any "dog in the manger" (no pun intended) who doesn't use the space they won should be barred from future drawings. Of course, unavoidable non-use (e.g. an individual wins a space, then gets hit by a car and seriously injured, so they're physically unable to use the space this year) shouldn't be penalized, but the space should be re-issued so it doesn't get wasted.

[siead_lietrathua]

i just think its sad that the town is missing out on neat displays of anything. its taking their community traditions and spitting on it.
i know i would be sad if the lights-display (both religious and secular items) in the falls was not put up at christmas. its one of the few traditions i really like.
i bet some kids in that town that liked to walk past n just look at what was set up in the cages will be dissapointed.
they could at least have put up stuff that isnt tied to any particular religion anymore, like trees and candycanes and pretty lights :/