Political interference with Religion

[Greenday]

I mean think about it... He planned to roll-back the clause in February 2009. Then five months later in July he's telling Catholics they don't need to worry about it, that they won't be forced into doing anything against their faith?


So... what happened to that promise, eh? Was it just thin air?

Is he forcing anyone to take birth control? I still don't get it. No one is telling churches what they have to believe or support. I feel like I'm missing something here.

[Racket_Man]

My first thought on reading the title of this thread was "Well, religeon has been interfering with politics for years"

THIS ^^^^^^ Why is it that RELIGION (take your pick but is seems to be the more fundimentalist versions) insert themselves into politics in many many ways but by the Flying Spag Monster and horrors upon horrors something for the good of everyone gets blasted.

THis is just like the uber religious pharamsists wanting to have "conscience clauses" written into their contract or work rules so they will NOT be required to fill prescriptions for birthcontrol or the morning after pills.

[PepperElf]

Actually, they don't. Religions that use the pulpit to attempt to directly influence politics run the risk of having their NPO status revoked.
During the last election, there were mulitple churches on both sides who had to be warned when the preachers started telling the congregations who they should vote for, and the LDS church has been under heavy scrutiny since the whole Prop 8 fiasco (which apparently got struch down today)
Unfortunately the big churches can buy their way out of trouble with their owned senators and congressmen, while the smaller ones actually take notice and at the least get more subtle

actually the letter wasn't a violation of this in my opinion.

There is nothing against the non-profit rules about a church taking a stance on pro-life/choice. nor is there anything against the rules about them openly discussing what they view to be a violation of their 1A religious rights.

please do not equate this with a church that say, openly invites politicians to stomp and sway voters during a sermon.


And another point.... why the change?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...d=sec-religion

Speaking to eight religion reporters at the White House before his first meeting with Pope Benedict XVI next Friday, Obama sought to reassure Catholic health-care workers that they would not be forced to perform abortions and other procedures that violate the Church's teachings. Obama said he is a "believer in conscience clauses" and supports a new policy that would "certainly not be weaker" than the rules in place before the expansion late in President George W. Bush's administration.

So... what, that was all just lip-service in order to get them to support obamacare? Perhaps to make people ignore the fact that he'd already announced plans to remove the clause just 5 months prior?

I mean think about it... He planned to roll-back the clause in February 2009. Then five months later in July he's telling Catholics they don't need to worry about it, that they won't be forced into doing anything against their faith?


So... what happened to that promise, eh? Was it just thin air?

[Nyoibo]

My first thought on reading the title of this thread was "Well, religeon has been interfering with politics for years"

[Rebel]

I have been singing this in my head every time I read this thread.

[Lachrymose]

I concur..

[Andara Bledin]

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Seems to me that we've more than replenished and subdued the earth to the point where pretty soon there won't be any fish, fowl, or living things moving upon the earth.

^-.-^

[Lachrymose]

I fail to understand why Christians have such a problem with birth control anyway.

I've seen this verse cited:

Genesis 1:28

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

[Rageaholic]

Having seen previous examples of the Catholic church taking deliberate and unnecessary action to position itself as unfairly treated by the government, I cannot trust a word they say on anything along those lines. In fact, I see no reason not to assume they are lying yet again (or at least grossly misrepresenting the truth) until proof is shown otherwise.

Yeah, for that reason I took these claims with a grain of salt. Since it's only affecting the for profit organizations and not actually targetting the church, this is being blown out of proportion.

This may just be the snarky atheist side of me, but maybe the Catholic Church should join the 21st century with the rest of us and realize that birth control is a good thing, especially considering how many Catholics actually use it.

Amen!

I fail to understand why Christians have such a problem with birth control anyway.

[Silverharp]

The letter is free speech as should not be barred from being read. The priests have the right to teach their beliefs and advocate for a change in law just as every American does.

Actually, they don't. Religions that use the pulpit to attempt to directly influence politics run the risk of having their NPO status revoked.
During the last election, there were mulitple churches on both sides who had to be warned when the preachers started telling the congregations who they should vote for, and the LDS church has been under heavy scrutiny since the whole Prop 8 fiasco (which apparently got struch down today)
Unfortunately the big churches can buy their way out of trouble with their owned senators and congressmen, while the smaller ones actually take notice and at the least get more subtle

[Glados]

I see this in two lights. First, a right to practice religion does not mean the right to force it upon others. I support the requirement that these services are offered in health plans. The recipients of these plans still can chose to not use these services if it violates their beliefs but it will be available for those that want it. Many catholics use birth control and sterilization but still take part in the religion. It is a personal choice.

The letter is free speech as should not be barred from being read. The priests have the right to teach their beliefs and advocate for a change in law just as every American does.

[Andara Bledin]

This is the problem - individuals in society deciding what a church can and cannot support.

It says nothing about what the church, when operating as a church, can and cannot support.

This only applies in instances where churches are operating businesses that are not church-related beyond being branded.

Plus, as has been bandied about, the majority of Catholic women (98% of sexually active Catholic women between 15 and 40 have used birth control, with 70% of Catholic women being sexually active, so nearly 70% of all Catholic women of age to have a use for birth control) would benefit from this decision, as would thousands of NON-Catholic individuals who work for these non-church, church-branded institutions.

^-.-^

[Rebel]

But the government isn't interfering with the Catholic Church. The non-profit Church doesn't have to endorse contraception.

Companies and organizations that just so happen to be endorsed or run by the Catholic Church are completely different. They are 'for profit', and as such, have to follow the word of the law of the land, which in this case includes the healthcare reforms.

[Daskinor]

They wont, only way they can stay relevant in this century is to always have something to rally against. Allot of my mothers side of the family are hardcore republicans only because of "JESUS(tm)." My aunt is a nurse at the local Christian Hospital and her facebook is up in arms.

Her: "This is just like the government forcing Kosher business to serve pork!!!!!!~~!~!~!~"

of course I cant help but get snarky

Me: "Food choice != Health care ability"

Her: "what does != mean"

Me: "not equal"

Her: "Yes it does, this is a moral choice. And it goes against Jesus's teachings."

Me: "Not really, most of what the bible says on the subject is Old Testament. Depending on what translation you use on the subject of marage; “in the beginning” was that the “two shall become one flesh” and “be fruitful and multiply” Mainly talking about quoting what is said in genesis on the subject of marriage.

Her: "There you go then!"

Me: "well when you look at the part of Genesis I mean really look at it, "be fruitful and multiply" may not be a command but a blessing.

Her: "hun?"

Me: "There are translations being done on really old bibles, peer reviewed stuff using modern techniques. It becomes less likely that mistakes are made and opinion's inserted. also they can clear up ideas that did not translate well into Latin then into English. Basically Aramaic texts with the "be fruitful and multiply" did not have language suggesting it was a command. It came across more as a blessing for getting married.

Her: Its not mentioned because it did not exist back then.

Me: sorry that is incorrect the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all have well documented forms of birth control. In fact the Romans talk about a plant that they worked so well they hunted it to extinction.

Her: Still, why should we be forced to do something that 80% percent of Americans are against.

Me: Oh boy, I don't even know where to start! A. Same reason you are forced to treat Gay people at the hospital, even though they are abominations in the eyes of the lord(note that last part was dripping in sarcasm) B. 80% wow that number has been re-quoted so many times, its more like 63% identify as Christian. With non-Christians, Agnostics and Atheists going up every census. C. Abortion rates of fetuses' diagnosed with down syndrome are between 98 and 87%. The three major studies done came up with 97, 95 and 87%. Linkey

Me: This shows the level of commitment the average american is will to go on the issue. And you know what the worst part is I know for a fact that -your hospital's- health insurance does not pay for contraception or fertility treatments. But Vasectomies are covered without copay.

Me: This whole issues is leftover Christian 'silent majority' crap from the late 60s. Religious groups banded together to fight the perceived moral wrongdoings of the 60s.The whole sexual liberation of women was in there minds "because Birth control turned women into sluts". Just frrom your health insurance I will say that your employers believe that. A. women should have babies or not have sex. B. If a woman has trouble conceiving that its gods will and she shouldn't get any help, even if it is just hormone therapy not invitro fertilization. C. Men can have control over their reproductive state because, i dunno, they are not women.


At this point she deleted the thread off facebook.

[AdminAssistant]

Okay, sans hyperbole, it's already been pointed out that this doesn't apply to actual churches or affiliated tax-exempt organizations. So...what's the problem exactly? The government isn't interfering with the church in any way whatsoever. Is your beef that Catholic individuals will have to pay into a system that pays for birth control?

ETA: Because if that's the case, that opens the floodgates to a host of ethical problems. I'm against circumcision, should I ask for a waiver so that I don't pay into a system that covers circumcisions?