"Under God"

[Racket_Man]

and I will remind those who are in the younger generation about the "required" Bellamy Salute or "flag salute" that was required when reciting the Pledge until 1942. the main reason they got rid of the Salute (and replaced it with a hand over the heart gesture) was the Nazis and Fascists used a VERY similar salute (You know the famous Heil Hitler salute) in their everyday lives.

Children pictured here and here performing the Salute.

The Salute is very similiar to the Heil Hiter salute ie. right arm outstretched, at eye level, and palm up instead of down (although the pics show palm down)

[Nekojin]

I never really understood the pledge of allegience to begin with though. It seems kinda....what's the word I'm looking for? Indoctrination? Not quite that strong....diet indoctrination?

Overt nationalism makes me uncomfortable.

Indoctrination is the right word. Jingoistic indoctrination - "Our country is the best country, rah rah rah. Anyone who believes otherwise is a traitor, rah rah rah."

There's nothing wrong with swearing fealty to a government or ethos, but you should at least understand the oath, and fully agree with it, before making the pledge. Having children who barely understand the individual words, much less the deeper connotations, reciting it from rote memory is not exactly something to be proud of.

[KabeRinnaul]

Can anyone honestly say they are offended and feel persecuted because they had to <gasp> hear "under god"?

I'd say they can when they're not merely hearing the pledge but being forced to say it. Like, for example, in school. I don't know for certain as I've been out for 9 years now, but when I graduated high school, the pledge was said every morning and at a good number of school functions. And there were a number of teachers who required you to go through the whole routine, and considered it disrespect and insubordination if you didn't. This was frequently the case from elementary all the way up through my graduation.

And even beyond that, doesn't it disrespect the citizens of this country who either follow a non-Christian religion, or no religion at all, to always declare this to be "One nation under God"? To me that sounds like we're declaring ourselves to be a Christian nation. No need to give any more fuel to religious fundamentalist politics.

[DrFaroohk]

um you may wish to check the definition of "god"



And you know this because you know them personally? Or have they been forced to keep their lack of beliefs quiet out of fear? And "Royal shit disturbers", really? Just because some challenges the "status quo*" does not make them a "shit disturber", unless the people that fought for the end of slavery, women's rights, civil rights, and gay rights are also "shit disturbers". The people that fought hardest to end slavery were white, so since it didn't affect them I guess they shouldn't have bothered.


*sorry but any minority being oppressed creates a "privileged status" of the oppressors, christians are extremely privileged in the US, and any encroachment on their perceived privileged and more toward everyone being treated the same leads to the cry of "persecution!" Heck saying "happy holidays" to be inclusive of every group that celebrates in december is seen as "persecution", because they're being treated like everyone else.

I don't have to know someone personally to be able to tell they're being a shit disturber. Now, standing up for what's actually right and defending another person does not equal a shit disturber. Slavery, women's rights, etc...those are actual civil issues.

Happy holidays? To everyone who ever threw such a shit fit about merry christmas that they got it changed to happy holidays has NO LIFE. They are a shit disturber. It doesn't affect them in any way and doesn't violate anyone else's right, unless you're seriously concerned with your right to not here merry christmas.

Same as the under god people. It's like 30 whole seconds out of your day that you have to listen to the damn pledge of allegiance. Can anyone honestly say they are offended and feel persecuted because they had to <gasp> hear "under god"?

[siead_lietrathua]

um you may wish to check the definition of "god"

just because i love ninjawords:

god
noun
°A deity:.
°# A supernatural, typically immortal being with superior powers.
verb
°to idolize.
°to deify.
synonyms: deity

considering how many people i know that can quote simpsons better than any religious text, i think it can count as idolizing.

seriously though, anything you worship is your god, be is a shoe or a spirit or the mold in the bathtub.

[BlaqueKatt]

But your god could be money, or food, or coke, or American Dad.

um you may wish to check the definition of "god"

Honestly I'm all for keeping it out of the pledge, its just sometimes the other people want that come off as royal shit disturbers. They don't care about the flag, the religion, or the constitution. They just learned something in history class and want to flex their political muscles.

And you know this because you know them personally? Or have they been forced to keep their lack of beliefs quiet out of fear? And "Royal shit disturbers", really? Just because some challenges the "status quo*" does not make them a "shit disturber", unless the people that fought for the end of slavery, women's rights, civil rights, and gay rights are also "shit disturbers". The people that fought hardest to end slavery were white, so since it didn't affect them I guess they shouldn't have bothered.


*sorry but any minority being oppressed creates a "privileged status" of the oppressors, christians are extremely privileged in the US, and any encroachment on their perceived privileged and more toward everyone being treated the same leads to the cry of "persecution!" Heck saying "happy holidays" to be inclusive of every group that celebrates in december is seen as "persecution", because they're being treated like everyone else.

[Hyena Dandy]

You're right, GK, but my point is that it's not that Atheists don't believe in the Christian god, they don't believe in ANY god.

[radiocerk]

I've always felt that in a true democracy, which the US is not, the government should be pledging its allegiance to the people, not the other way around.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm sure that members wouldn't call Rationalism their god. Nor would Gravekeeper call The Buddha his god.

Nope. I'm a pandeist. Heck, my perferred Buddha is actually a she. But Buddha's are not gods. Just people wiser than I am. ;p

I never really understood the pledge of allegience to begin with though. It seems kinda....what's the word I'm looking for? Indoctrination? Not quite that strong....diet indoctrination?

Overt nationalism makes me uncomfortable.

[Hyena Dandy]

Some people are dicks. Like, saying that people shouldn't be able to be religious in public. I've been told 'keep your religion at home' for wearing a cross around my neck. That's being a dick.

But if a teacher wore a cross around their neck, that's different. Cover it up with a shirt if you have to wear it. Same with under god. Asking for no reference to god or God in the pledge isn't a problem.

What I'd suggest is what my school did. Put a space in when the person on the PA is reading the Pledge. That way there's enough room for a student who wants to say Under God to say it, but there's no official endorsement of a religious viewpoint. While I see the New Atheist/Gnu Atheist movement as a religious movement, I'm sure that members wouldn't call Rationalism their god. Nor would Gravekeeper call The Buddha his god. And I think they're right in that.

[DrFaroohk]

But your god could be money, or food, or coke, or American Dad.

Honestly I'm all for keeping it out of the pledge, its just sometimes the other people want that come off as royal shit disturbers. They don't care about the flag, the religion, or the constitution. They just learned something in history class and want to flex their political muscles.

These are people who it should be legal to physically assault.

[Hyena Dandy]

It's not about it being the Christian God. It's about it being a god at all. Not everyone believes in god.

[Andara Bledin]

My objection with the PoA has nothing to do with the "under God" and everything to do with the whole pledging my allegiance to a piece of cloth.

But as for the OP question, there's no need for the phrase at all. If you follow God, then it's redundant (you don't have to publicly declare unless your faith is just for show), and if you're not, then you have no use for it in any fashion.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

I can see taking out the under god part and having it still make sense.

Well, seeing as "Under God" was *added* to the pledge, it would certainly make sense without it. Seeing as it was without to begin with. -.-

[bara]

I can see taking out the under god part and having it still make sense.

In fact. Pledging to the flag could easily be a form of idolatry, which to a christian should be a no no anyway.