Hurray for gay marriage!

[smileyeagle1021]

As for businesses refusing to work with gay couples, that's straight up discrimination. If homosexuality is considered a protected class by local laws, then the bigots are out of luck.

quoted for two reasons, first I find the wording to be slightly ironic, second, because it brings up another problem... how to deal with discrimination against homosexuals is left to the local governments, and there is no universal law regarding it, which really leaves a lot of holes in what legal protection is offered.

[Lady_Foxfire]

I don't think that churches should be forced to marry homosexual couples if they don't want to, for the same reasons that they don't have to marry, say, Hindu couples. There are quite a few churches that are okay with homosexuality, and there's no reason that gay couples wanting a church wedding couldn't go there.

As for businesses refusing to work with gay couples, that's straight up discrimination. If homosexuality is considered a protected class by local laws, then the bigots are out of luck.

[Boozy]

AFP explained it better than I did. I didn't say that businesses were public property. They are not. But they are not considered full-fledge "private" places either.

[smileyeagle1021]

Businesses are allowed to refuse service, but that right has caveats, like not being able to discriminate based on things like gender (unless it's a gender specific business), race, etc.

To rephrase that into more basic terms, I like how my boss put it
"you may refuse service for any specific reason relevant to the operating of the hotel, such as the person being drunk or dirty or acting like they will disrupt other guests... if you can't point to a specific reason that is specific to that person, you are discriminating, and you will be fired"

[AFPheonix]

A business is private property, but they have to operate under much different rules than say, a private residence, because they have to allow the public in to operate their business.

Businesses are allowed to refuse service, but that right has caveats, like not being able to discriminate based on things like gender (unless it's a gender specific business), race, etc.

[lordlundar]

But a business is not considered private property. This is not my opinion, this is law in most successful Western economies,

Umm, Boozy? Can you please cite your source on this, as I think you're confusing good business practice with the law. To my knowledge, a business is private property, as that is what allows them to refuse entry to people. Try to go into a corporate office and see how far you get before security tosses you out. There's also a store's or business' right to close the building at their discretion within the law. If it was public property, then they would not have that right.

Rockefeller square is a perfect example of this. The square needs to be shut down for one day out of the year or it becomes public property.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Gotta go with SmileyEagle all the way on this one. Otherwise, yeah....you end up with the gubment in your church. And that is way not okay.

[smileyeagle1021]

I would offer that churches can refuse to host ceremonies for gay/lesbian couples, on the condition that they give up their tax-free status with the government. Seems fair.

I'm going to disagree on that one... one thing that has made this country great is the separation of church and state. I won't go into the argument of whether churches should have tax-free status (that's a whole new thread right there) but having either churches telling the government how to run or the government telling churches how to run is a dangerous road to go down. I know sometimes it is necessary, good examples would be in telling churches that they can't marry non consenting minors to adults or that human sacrifice no matter how central to the religion just isn't permitted... but I don't think gay marriage is one of those areas that government should be getting into with churches.
And let's be honest, if a homosexual person is willingly staying in a church that doesn't want to have them as a member, then they really do have some issues to deal with. The LDS church made it clear my kind was not welcome... so what did I do... the only logical thing, I found a church I was welcome in.

[AdminAssistant]

I would offer that churches can refuse to host ceremonies for gay/lesbian couples, on the condition that they give up their tax-free status with the government. Seems fair.

[Boozy]

You have the right to be a discriminatory asshole in your own home. That's private property.

But a business is not considered private property. This is not my opinion, this is law in most successful Western economies, including the US. Business enterprises cannot be considered private in order for capitalist economies to function properly.

Edited to add: Churches are in a different class than businesses. They have more freedom to do what they'd like, including choosing who they will and will not marry.

[Rapscallion]

The problem there is that they can bring out assholish tendencies in others. People who wouldn't normally go down that route could be encouraged in that regard and then find themselves addicted to the power that comes from discrimination.

Some things start small, and I don't want a return to the bad old days where discrimination on those sorts of grounds is accepted by society.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Well, my thinking on that is that assholes should, within reason, be allowed to be assholes.

That way, we can easily spot them.

I figure you make it known you practice some kind of ugly discrimination at your business, you won't BE in business much longer. Word gets out you're a bigot, people are going to start voting with their feet.

There's plenty of ethical businesses out there to give your money to. Let the bigots go on and be bigots and see how that works out for them.

[Rapscallion]

Sure. While I absolutely think that it should be a basic human right to marry any consenting adult you choose, it also should be a basic human right to do business or not do business with anyone you choose.

Not convinced by that, RK. Used to be that black people weren't allowed in certain stores simply because of the colour of their skin.

I do agree with the concept of not doing business with those who offend you, but I'm cautious about what the cause of offence should be.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Sure. While I absolutely think that it should be a basic human right to marry any consenting adult you choose, it also should be a basic human right to do business or not do business with anyone you choose.

[DrFaroohk]

Hey here's a good one - in places where gay marriage is legal, do you think private business owners of wedding services (catering, bands, photographers, etc...) should have the right to refuse to work at a gay wedding if they still have a problem with it?