Hurray for gay marriage!

[smileyeagle1021]

I would offer that churches can refuse to host ceremonies for gay/lesbian couples, on the condition that they give up their tax-free status with the government. Seems fair.

I'm going to disagree on that one... one thing that has made this country great is the separation of church and state. I won't go into the argument of whether churches should have tax-free status (that's a whole new thread right there) but having either churches telling the government how to run or the government telling churches how to run is a dangerous road to go down. I know sometimes it is necessary, good examples would be in telling churches that they can't marry non consenting minors to adults or that human sacrifice no matter how central to the religion just isn't permitted... but I don't think gay marriage is one of those areas that government should be getting into with churches.
And let's be honest, if a homosexual person is willingly staying in a church that doesn't want to have them as a member, then they really do have some issues to deal with. The LDS church made it clear my kind was not welcome... so what did I do... the only logical thing, I found a church I was welcome in.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Gotta go with SmileyEagle all the way on this one. Otherwise, yeah....you end up with the gubment in your church. And that is way not okay.

[lordlundar]

But a business is not considered private property. This is not my opinion, this is law in most successful Western economies,

Umm, Boozy? Can you please cite your source on this, as I think you're confusing good business practice with the law. To my knowledge, a business is private property, as that is what allows them to refuse entry to people. Try to go into a corporate office and see how far you get before security tosses you out. There's also a store's or business' right to close the building at their discretion within the law. If it was public property, then they would not have that right.

Rockefeller square is a perfect example of this. The square needs to be shut down for one day out of the year or it becomes public property.

[AFPheonix]

A business is private property, but they have to operate under much different rules than say, a private residence, because they have to allow the public in to operate their business.

Businesses are allowed to refuse service, but that right has caveats, like not being able to discriminate based on things like gender (unless it's a gender specific business), race, etc.

[smileyeagle1021]

Businesses are allowed to refuse service, but that right has caveats, like not being able to discriminate based on things like gender (unless it's a gender specific business), race, etc.

To rephrase that into more basic terms, I like how my boss put it
"you may refuse service for any specific reason relevant to the operating of the hotel, such as the person being drunk or dirty or acting like they will disrupt other guests... if you can't point to a specific reason that is specific to that person, you are discriminating, and you will be fired"

[Boozy]

AFP explained it better than I did. I didn't say that businesses were public property. They are not. But they are not considered full-fledge "private" places either.

[Lady_Foxfire]

I don't think that churches should be forced to marry homosexual couples if they don't want to, for the same reasons that they don't have to marry, say, Hindu couples. There are quite a few churches that are okay with homosexuality, and there's no reason that gay couples wanting a church wedding couldn't go there.

As for businesses refusing to work with gay couples, that's straight up discrimination. If homosexuality is considered a protected class by local laws, then the bigots are out of luck.

[smileyeagle1021]

As for businesses refusing to work with gay couples, that's straight up discrimination. If homosexuality is considered a protected class by local laws, then the bigots are out of luck.

quoted for two reasons, first I find the wording to be slightly ironic, second, because it brings up another problem... how to deal with discrimination against homosexuals is left to the local governments, and there is no universal law regarding it, which really leaves a lot of holes in what legal protection is offered.

[Gravekeeper]

how to deal with discrimination against homosexuals is left to the local governments, and there is no universal law regarding it, which really leaves a lot of holes in what legal protection is offered.

In your country mayhaps. Flee north!

[Falconess]

Hey here's a good one - in places where gay marriage is legal, do you think private business owners of wedding services (catering, bands, photographers, etc...) should have the right to refuse to work at a gay wedding if they still have a problem with it?

A lot of good points have been mentioned. However, all a place would need is, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." I know of a place, in Silverton, OR, that will (and has) turn people away, if they bring children under a certain age in. It's a new rule, starting a few months back, but it's their right.

I feel if someone feels uncomfortable officiating a marriage, they shouldn't have to do it. Ceremonies are about spirituality and symbolism (in my opionion). If they weren't, just go down to the court house and sign papers. I think they should still be given the right to chose not to do something they don't feel comfortable with. There will be comfortable with it.

Besides, would you really want someone who doesn't believe in what they're doing, officiating your sacred moment? Because really, when it comes to a wedding (the ceremony) it is about how sacred it is to you and your partner. A spiritual bonding (regardless of what religion you follow, or don't follow) between two souls.

As for officials of the state, who just sign the document, no, I don't think they should be allowed to say, "Nah, I don't wanna, so take it somewhere else." The actual, legal contract is just that, a contract, and it shouldn't matter if they believe in it or not, they're just signing that you both agree to follow the rules of the contract.

[Boozy]

A lot of good points have been mentioned. However, all a place would need is, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." I know of a place, in Silverton, OR, that will (and has) turn people away, if they bring children under a certain age in. It's a new rule, starting a few months back, but it's their right.

I can't speak to the wedding providers issue, since contractors may be considered different, but here in Canada gays and lesbians are a protected group, like minorities. So businesses can't say, "We don't want to serve you", just as they can't tell black people they aren't allowed in their restaurant.

[DrFaroohk]

Am I the only person who sees that as just the tiniest bit hypocritical?

I mean from the point of view of any minority, be it gays, blacks, or people who like to cut themselves for fun: "We want the right to live how we want without the government screwing with us."

Well that store owner or caterer or restaurant owner just wants the right to conduct his business the way he wants too. It seems like you can't have one without the other though without becoming a douche. You want the right to do whatever you want, and so do I.

[Rapscallion]

When your rights affect others adversely, I guess that's the sticking point the gubmint's chosen.

Rapscallion

[tropicsgoddess]

yes, we are everywhere

hell, even as a gay guy I'm always surprised to find out how many people I know are gay.

and you're right boozy, this isn't a gay issue, it is a human issue. I've got a semi open invitation for any bible thumper who believes I'm not human enough... please cut me (preferably not to deep and avoiding any major arteries thanks ) and see that I too bleed. I guarantee, my blood will be red and warm, just like yours. I will feel pain from the cut, just like you would. Eventually the wound will scab over, just like it would on you, and eventually I'll get a scar, just as you would. And most importantly, though harder to see, that blood will be pumped by a heart that feels love and pain exactly the same way yours does.

Well said, Smiley! I honestly don't see anything wrong with the gays having the right to marry and adopt AND get the same benefits as a straight couple. Gay or straight, black or white, we all bleed the same and we're all human beings.

[Pedersen]

Just found something that is both amusing and sad at the same time, and thought it kinda fit here. Neatly manages to sum up all the crap arguments that get spouted about gay marriage by the homophobes who oppose it.

http://fukung.net/v/10207/85c0fa0693...fad32da11a.gif