science finds a way!

[Rapscallion]

In some parts of Africa, HIV and AIDS affects 1 in 4 people. Abstinence-only education has surpassed "inadequate". It's surpassed "irresponsible". I'd now call it "cruel".

I'd go so far as to describe it as murder.

Why's it always rape with you people?

Why is it always 'you people' with you people?



Rapscallion

[Hobbs]

You can't just call something "murder" because you don't agree with it

And I mean "you people" as people who use any excuse to attack Holy Mother Church.

[Rebel]

If you read my previous posts, which I can see you haven't, I stated that there is no reason, in my opinion as a member of the faithful, for the device-whatever-not to be used.

Of course I couldn't have been talking to everyone in the thread at all.

[BlaqueKatt]

I'm not familiar with any Church policy to refuse blood transfusion or blood testing. If there is, please cite it. If not, it's more uneducated rhetoric.

that wasn't even directed towards your statement-it was to the "HIV prevention= stop having sex with anything that moves" did you post that ? don't think so-meaning your response makes no damn sense.

source: http://www.catholic.org/internationa...y.php?id=19561

wow amazing job of once again "cherry picking" to support your argument.

Same article- In a 2003 Vatican document titled Family Values Versus Safe Sex, the use of condoms in HIV-prevention programs was forcefully rejected:


so as I said DOCTRINE HASN'T CHANGED-a few people going against doctrine doesn't change it it just means that oops they are now heretics-and remember you yourself in this thread said:

Doctrine is more important than any petty human judgement.

so the 25% you are referencing are using "petty human judgment" and going against doctrine-interesting how you change boats midstream to suit yourself

The Catholic bishops of South Africa, Botswana, and Swaziland categorically regard the widespread and indiscriminate promotion of condoms as an immoral and misguided weapon in our battle against HIV/AIDS for the following reasons. The use of condoms goes against human dignity. Condoms change the beautiful act of love into a selfish search for pleasure-while rejecting responsibility. Condoms do not guarantee protection against HIV/AIDS. Condoms may even be one of the main reasons for the spread of HIV/AIDS.

and the statement by Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo-is the most ignorant of science I have ever read.

and actually the BBC, UN, and WHO have all gone against him and his ignorance that he continues to spread.

The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus.

The cardinal(Alfonso Lopez Trujillo), who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests that governments should urge people not to use condoms.

The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.

Gordon Wambi, director of an Aids testing programme in Lwak, near Lake Victoria, told the programme that he could not distribute condoms because of opposition from the Catholic Church.

"Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids," he said.

[Rapscallion]

You can't just call something "murder" because you don't agree with it

Knowingly promoting a system that will result in the deaths of people - yeah, I'd call that murder.

And I mean "you people" as people who use any excuse to attack Holy Mother Church.

Certainly not me. When someone does something right, there's no reason to criticise. When they're wrong, that's when to chastise. You shouldn't reward bad behaviour.

Added a link in there that you reminded me of.

Rapscallion

[Hobbs]

Blech, Ross Perot, seriously? I can't stand the guy. I have half a mind to report that as a personal attack

Abstinence doesn't lead to murder. I really don't see where you're going with this.

[crashhelmet]

From trojancondoms.com

If used properly, latex condoms will help to reduce the risk of transmission of HIV infection (AIDS) and many other sexually transmitted diseases.

From durex.com

Clinical trials have shown that correct and consistent use of latex condoms results in contraceptive efficacy rates of 95-98%.

Plus, other clinical studies confirm that high quality latex condoms - when used correctly and consistently - are a very effective barrier to the transmission of HIV, other sexually transmitted infections and also unplanned pregnancy.

From avert.com

If used properly, a condom is very effective at reducing the risk of being infected with HIV during sexual intercourse. Using a condom also provides protection against other sexually transmitted diseases, and protection against pregnancy. In the laboratory, latex condoms are very effective at blocking transmission of HIV because the pores in latex condoms are too small to allow the virus to pass through. However, outside of the laboratory condoms are less effective because people do not always use condoms properly.

Neither one of these sites say anywhere that condoms are the 100% solution to stopping the spread of HIV/AIDS, any other STDs, or even pregnancy itself. Yes, they help, but they're not 100% effective.

As for the rapist argument, please tell me how often a rapist will take the time to use a condom. Some might be smart enough to do it to prevent any DNA evidence being left behind, but I doubt it's very common in comparison to the number of rape cases out there. I remember years ago there was a woman that was raped that almost lost her case because she asked her attacked to wear one. They argued that it then became consensual. If I remember right, it ended in a mistrial.

If this ring or the film does what they claim to do without hindering conception, than the Church should have no arguments with it.

CH

[BlaqueKatt]

And I mean "you people" as people who use any excuse to attack Holy Mother Church.

you certainly have no issues with attacking other religions-for example say Islam.....why is your religion so much more sacred than theirs? Because it's yours? Because it the "one true religion"? Newsflash-all religions believe theirs is the one true religion-Catholicism/Christianity does not have a monopoly on that. and didn't you condemn followers of Islam for some of them threatening death on "innocent people"-yet for the sake of your religion it's ok?

They're protectors of the Church, charged with protecting it from freaks and the enemies of the Church. I much prefer the version shown in Crossfire over the version seen in Hellsing, since the people fought in Crossfire rightfully should be fought (they're terrorists).

Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.

Do my spidey senses sense hypocrisy?

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts

As for the rapist argument, please tell me how often a rapist will take the time to use a condom.

I was also thinking of prison rape, condoms are not even an option-not all people in prison are violent offenders(which are normally the targets), nor are they all guilty-system is run by humans, humans make mistakes.

Woman's husband goes to prison-contracts HIV, comes home and passes it on-it's reportedly(sources are questionable) used as a "punishment" in some South African prisons-have an HIV positive inmate rape a non-cooperative inmate-but that's another argument all together.....

[Hobbs]

you certainly have no issues with attacking other religions-for example say Islam.....why is your religion so much more sacred than theirs? Because it's yours? Because it the "one true religion"? Newsflash-all religions believe theirs is the one true religion-Catholicism/Christianity does not have a monopoly on that. and didn't you condemn followers of Islam for some of them threatening death on "innocent people"-yet for the sake of your religion it's ok?

No, I condemned followers of Islam who are murderers of innocents. I've never attacked Islam as a whole; only those who distort it to attack my country.

Do my spidey senses sense hypocrisy?

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
...Stephen F Roberts

What does that quote have to do with anything? Just because you post your little athiest-mantra doesn't mean you're right, or give you an automatic win to an argument.

Why is it hypocritical to defend yourself against enemies? The Vatican is a sovereign state, and as such, has as much right to self-defense as any other nation of the world.

[HYHYBT]

And I'm sure telling a rapist you are abstaining from sex will stop them

Well, to be fair, telling a rapist to put on a condom isn't likely to work either

Yes, because we all know that abstinence is so effective.

Technically, yes, it is very effective. It's just rarely practiced. And if people are going to do it anyway, they might as well remain healthy afterwards.

Sex is natural.
Marriage and monogamy and abstinence are man-made.

Disease is natural too.

Abstinence-only education has surpassed "inadequate". It's surpassed "irresponsible". I'd now call it "cruel".

True!

[McDreidel09]

Okay. So now the sex part of HIV/AIDS is covered. When I say the sex part, I mean responsible people who are consenting and actually think about it.

Now, onto the other ways HIV/AIDS can be contracted.

[Red Panda]

As for the rapist argument, please tell me how often a rapist will take the time to use a condom. Some might be smart enough to do it to prevent any DNA evidence being left behind, but I doubt it's very common in comparison to the number of rape cases out there. I remember years ago there was a woman that was raped that almost lost her case because she asked her attacked to wear one. They argued that it then became consensual. If I remember right, it ended in a mistrial.

I've heard it is believed in parts of Africa that having sex with a virgin cures aids. So a man has unprotected sex, gets aids, and then goes around raping virgins/ spreading his aids.

[Hobbs]

Red. how does your statement (however true) respond to the quote?

[Ree]

And I'm sure telling a rapist you are abstaining from sex will stop them

Can we have some statistics on how many rapists wear condoms?
That's kind of an illogical argument to the topic that was being discussed, which, I believe, was the wearing of condoms being forbidden by the church.

[blas87]

Not everyone who disagrees with certain things the church believes in is an Atheist or a religion basher. Some of it just makes my head hurt at how bassackwards some of their "rules" are.