"Speak English" sign in Philly restaurant

[IDrinkaRum]

It just stuck in my craw - like when people say we speak English in America, but it's really American we speak. I don't know ... I'm just weird I suppose.

As for learning American/English/Whatever language of the country you're in, it's a good idea. No matter what. France does have a national language and isn't it a requirement that to visit the country, you have to have at least the bare bones understanding of the language? I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but in my imagination, I'm sure it makes things easier for everyone around - those who are visiting who might be lost or hungry or whatever can communicate (with probably some pantomiming) to get their point across and not have to go through 50 people before they find someone who can understand them.

But to the OP, I have no problem with the Speak English sign. It does make everyone's life easier when everyone is on the same page, especially when there are hungry people involved.

[Boozy]

As someone who learned to speak French under a Quebecois teacher, and was then ridiculed by a Frenchman for my "bastardized" use of his language, I totally understand the differences between old world and new world language.

My point was just that they didn't speak Spanish in Mexico until Spain colonized, just as they didn't speak French in what is now Quebec until France colonized. The languages then started to diverge at that point.

I do wonder why you felt the need to differentiate between "Spanish from Spain" and Spanish from Mexico, however. If the issue is expediting communication between English speakers and non-English speakers, why does it matter what form of Spanish they are speaking?

[IDrinkaRum]

Boozy - Mysty & AFP both said it a little better than me about the Spanish in Spain and the "New World".

As I mentioned briefly in my earlier post, my college Spanish teacher came from Spain. We had 2 girls from Argentina. I remember the first day in the class. The girls were like, "We're going to be sailing through this class! We already speak Spanish, this will be an easy grade for us. In high school, we were tutors for the rest of the class because we're native speakers."

A couple of weeks later, the teacher was correcting one of the Argentinian girl's speech when she got into a screaming match with the woman. The girl was like, "Why do you keep correcting me? I speak Spanish, just like you!"

The teacher's reaction was like, "No you do not. I speak the correct form of Spanish. You speak a garbled form of Spanish. I'm teaching you the proper way because you don't know."

That exchange opened my eyes. I've talked to people who are from Spain and from Latin/South America and their attitudes are very different. The Latin/South Americans lay claim to their Spanish heritage. The ones from Spain say they are the true Spanish & those from the "New World" aren't really Spanish and should give up the charade.

[AFPheonix]

There are several differences between Spanish spoken in Spain and Spanish in South America.
One, you rarely see the vosotros (formal for y'all) form of verbs used in South America. It is used regularly in Spain.

The other major difference is that because of the Hapsburg empire, Spaniards lisp (The rulers who had Hapsburg chins had a speech impediment that made them lisp, so everyone else lisped too so the royals wouldn't be miffed. It seems to have stuck) while South Americans do not.

Some slang is different, too, much like Kings' English and American English differ.

[MystyGlyttyr]

Then you may be surprised to learn that the Spanish spoken in Mexico is also "Spanish from Spain."

Where else do you suppose it came from?

I'm not sure, but I think what Rum meant is that it's in the same sense that English from America is different from English from England. The one came from the other, but at this point they're both different enough that communication between the two could be difficult.

[Boozy]

The Spanish in Florida/California/Texas was Spanish spoken in Spain not from Mexico. The Spanish from Spain is a different animal altogether from the Spanish in Latin/South America.

Then you may be surprised to learn that the Spanish spoken in Mexico is also "Spanish from Spain."

Where else do you suppose it came from?

[IDrinkaRum]

Besides, the places were Spanish is spoken the most in the US (Florida, Texas, California) were speaking it before English came around anyway.

The Spanish in Florida/California/Texas was Spanish spoken in Spain not from Mexico. The Spanish from Spain is a different animal altogether from the Spanish in Latin/South America. (I learned this in my college Spanish class as the teacher was from Spain, 2 girls were from Argentina, and the teacher told them they didn't know how to speak correct Spanish).

Now, I've had people come up to me speaking Spanish and getting mad at me for not speaking it. I have very fair skin, naturally curly dark brown hair & brown eyes. They assume I'm Hispanic. (And you know what assuming makes you, right? ) I am Spaniard (Great-grandmother's maiden name was Cardinez - she had 2 sisters who were disowned because they married Mexicans and the Spaniards aren't supposed to dirty themselves with those below their station - not my way of thinking, but the way of the Spaniards in 1800 and 1900's so please don't flame me).

With my dark hair & eyes, I've been told I look Italian and (Southern) German too. But I haven't had Italians or Germans speak to me in their native tongue. (Okay, I haven't had any of them come into the store, but just on the off chance ... )

I know I'm rambling, but the point I have is this: Please, if you want decent/good service at any place you're at in America (or Europe or even Pluto for that matter), learn the language that is the one that is dominantly spoken. I've seen places that have signs that say "Menus in Spanish" or "We speak Spanish here" - then those are places you can speak Spanish at, but don't assume all places speak Spanish. Please, learn English.

Thank you.

[Jadedcarguy]

I agree with the courts and the owner. If the shop owner's employees only speak English, ordering in anything but will cause a problem.

I agree with Seshat and Will-mun, English is the most widely used language in the US. While no "official" US language exists, English is the language that pretty much all business is conducted in, as well as the language of 99% of the signs in this country.

I made a post in the main board a while back about a customer that spoke to me in Spanish after I told him several times that I didn't speak it. My job doesn't require me to speak anything BUT English, why should the employees of a sandwich shop be required to? Are they paid a wage that reflects completing a college course in foreign tongues? I seriously doubt it.

If I went to Mexico and spoke only English, I wouldn't get far. Same with most other countries that have adopted an official language other than English. What is with the bullshit line of thought here that says any language is acceptable? The sandwich shop in Philly is not any different than any other business, the owner just had the brass balls to make a policy about it.

EDIT: When you consider how many tourists go to Philly and that this shop has been in the national news, I think this shop's business will be huge for months to come.

[Seshat]

Except for refugees, noone's forced these people to leave the place where their native language was the dominant language. It's their free choice, and they should accept the consequences.

Refugees, obviously, are a special case. And usually traumatised by whatever they're fleeing from, on top of that. Even so, they'll fit in better in their new home if they learn the language - and whatever happened back home isn't the fault of the locals in their host nation.

[Will-Mun]

I made a thread about this topic on the main boards, and it was civil for the most part... But the Mods rightfully locked it before it could get out of hand. So I'll chime in here...


First things first. I sympathies, truly I do. I understand how hard it is for adult immigrants to learn English. It is a very weird language, and it's difficult to learn ANY second language as an adult... But...

No Official Language or not... English is the most widely spoken language in the country. Movies are produced in English, Television is produced in English. Most news papers and Magazines are English (some have SPECIAL issues in other languages), and our schools are primarily teaching in English. English is as close to being an official language without actually becoming it.

If I ever move to another language, I will be sure to try my best to learn the official, or at least most primarily spoken language... This isn't giving up my culture... It's benefiting my ability to communicate with those around me.

When I worked in Radio Shack, we were in a place where a large percentage of the customers were Spanish Speaking... We had people on the sales floor who spoke Spanish... This would not be a problem...but then you have to realize that Radio Shack is commission based, and Cell Phone sales bring special bonuses.

I really don't like when people say it's about culture and race, cause it's not... It's about communication... Simple as that. If I move to France, I'm gonna learn French, if I move to Japan I'll learn to speak Japanese... Germany German, Mexico Spanish... It's hard I know...But it's just gonna make it easier for everyone involved.

[flybye023]

This guy has said he has not refused service to anyone based on race. All he is saying is "order in English" so that the order can be understood. The one article or interview my sister was telling me about, he supposedly said that they are a very busy restaurant and he and his staff got tired of holding the line up for 5-7 minutes while whoever was serving had to go through the menu line by line with the customer. They also got tired of the complaints when an order came up wrong.

Also, I have had customers both Asian and Hispanic come up to me and start talking in their native language and get mad when I can't help them.

[Greenday]

Anyone know the demographics of the region where that place is? All the article says is that there are an increasing number of immigrants.

It's Philly, there's people of every type there. Honestly, I'd put my money on this not really hurting their business to badly. It's a very popular place. Plus, with the crazy amounts of tourists, they won't be hurting any time soon.

[Rapscallion]

I had to think about this one. In many ways, it's just like a store policy regarding returns. "This is the way this company does business". I would only get upset if it was racist.

Is it impossible for a non-white to speak English? No. Ergo it's not a racial matter. However, the upshot of this is that the store in question is likely to lose trade from those who do not speak English. If there's a huge percentage of non-English speakers in the region then the shop will lose out hugely, and it would make more commercial sense to ensure that a reasonable number of staff were able to speak the locally dominant language. If it's just a couple of people, then the store doesn't really have to worry.

Anyone know the demographics of the region where that place is? All the article says is that there are an increasing number of immigrants.

Actually, I recollect a film I saw recently referring to Italian immigrants and the cultural drive towards learning the locally dominant language. If that's not just put in the script for show, then that would also be an interesting factor.

Rapscallion

[DesignFox]

I have seriously never heard of such ludicrous behaviour. Why would a Hispanic person walk up to someone who doesn't look Hispanic and start flapping their gums in Spanish? And then get angry when they don't speak your language? And you say this happens "the majority" of the time?
<snip>
I'm baffled by this. I wouldn't have thought that the majority of Spanish speakers are completely unreasonable people.

I'm not saying it happens a majority of the time...but it does happen. My store gets a fair amount of Spanish speakers coming through. And yes, I'm lily white with no accent, yet I get people who get frustrated or angry with me because I only speak English.

While the restaurant owner could certainly have worded his sign a little more nicely, I see nothing wrong with requesting his customers to order in English. While it may not be the official language of the US, it is the majority language.

Lazy asses should try to learn it. I'm not gonna move to Mexico and refuse to speak Spanish, eh?

[Greenday]

Alls I know is, this is my experience with hispanic people in my area back home. I know not all Hispanic people are like that. But after dealing with it a lot, I can just understand where he is coming from. Honestly, I have no idea why someone would get upset that I couldn't speak a second language. Other than out of my own interest, I have no need of learning another language to the point of mastering it. But I don't expect to go to a place like France or Germany, go to a random small suburb and expect them to know English.

Amethyst, I seriously doubt it would ever go that far. Most countries have national languages and none of them persecute people for speaking a different language. While it always would be a possibility for that kind of abuse, it is highly improbable.