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That Fine Line Between Chivalry and Disrespect

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  • Man, I leave for vacation for a week and find this thing had blown into a huge ragefest. I'll put these into a few concise and distinct points:

    1.) I've been raised to treat everyone with respect and to be conscious of others. That said, when I was with my friends, the vast majority of which were males, we'd do "guy stuff": Watch football, do belching contests, gross out girls with worms, etc. When a woman/girl was in a room with us who we wanted to respect, we'd cease our belching contests and worm fights. Why? Because they didn't like it. I learned this sense of chivalry from experience as much as from parental guidance.

    2.) When we're at work, some of us had our immature, sophomoric moments where we'd do stupid shit like belching. It was, in a sense, a bonding moment for us. There was one woman who liked to be "one of the guys" and join us in our belching. We thought nothing of it. On the other hand, other women we knew didn't appreciate our stupid shit we respected by not doing our stupid shit in their presence. In other words, we respected their wishes to not partake in immature shit that we, from time to time, enjoyed just for the hell of it. Besides that one woman, the line between the sophomoric people and the more polite people was clearly drawn between men and women, so I think people tend to be conditioned to think in that way.

    3.) A lot of the "chivalry" I've been taught has been of the romantic aspects of it, which I am well aware the OP makes an exception to. If my girlfriend opened the car door for me when we were going out to eat, I'd feel a tad weird, simply because that's not the norm. It's as much an oddity to me as a 10-year-old who starts talking to me about my market portfolio and tax returns or an elderly man who tells me Lady Gaga makes his cock into a hammer. I don't find them odd because I'm ageist or sexist, it's because it's an unusual occurance.

    4.) I've do not recall an occurrence in my lifetime where a guy was rude to me because I was just a guy, nor where a woman was rude to me because being polite should only be man-to-woman. I might have had cases like my aforementioned story where a woman overreacts to my polite gesture, but nobody has every told me to only help or respect women. The few times I've helped women "because they were women" was because they were wearing heels and was visibly "distressed" (i.e. was trying to avoid a puddle). Of course, I guess if that person were a cross dresser wearing heels I'd have done the same thing, so even that doesn't apply as strictly sexist. The only times I've been taught strict chivalry is when I am on a date. And I'll tell you: That was very helpful to my relationship with my girlfriend right now who appreciates that kind of chivalry, yet still sees me as an equal in the relationship, will pick up the check from time to time, and who believes in equality for everyone.

    EDIT: I'd also like to add a 5th point: That many people find men who hit women particularly disturbing (moreso than other violence) because in many incidents of this nature that are domestic, the man in the relationship is using his own misogyny and sexism to cowardly inflict violence. They pick women who truly are physically and emotionally weaker than them in order to maintain this kind of violent power in order for them to feel good. In this sense, whenever I think of men hitting women, I think of this stereotypical scenario which is very often the case for domestic violence. Are there men in these types of situations with their female partners? And are there homosexual relationships that are equally abusive? Of course, but the typical scenario is between a man and a woman and has, in a way, become the image of domestic violence.
    Last edited by TheHuckster; 08-19-2012, 09:56 PM.

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    • Originally posted by TheHuckster View Post
      Why? Because they didn't like it. I learned this sense of chivalry from experience as much as from parental guidance.
      This, in line with most of the rest of your examples, is not the point that we're trying to make. You stopped most of the behaviours around women not just because they're women, but because they didn't like it. They communicated to you that they didn't want you to do it, and you stopped.

      Not just because they have a vagina.

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      • I don't disagree that cowardly abusers deserve to suffer fiery wrath.

        And while it's not the cause, nor a major part of the situation, the subtle sexism that women are only worth paying attention to if they're hot but men are worth paying attention to if they're hot, athletic, or] brainy, is part of the recipe that makes those who are victimized easier to capture and control.

        Originally posted by the_std View Post
        You stopped most of the behaviours around women not just because they're women, but because they didn't like it.
        Exactly. Those examples are all humanistic actions. Everybody should try to do the same.

        ^-.-^
        Faith is about what you do. It's about aspiring to be better and nobler and kinder than you are. It's about making sacrifices for the good of others. - Dresden

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        • Originally posted by the_std View Post
          This, in line with most of the rest of your examples, is not the point that we're trying to make. You stopped most of the behaviours around women not just because they're women, but because they didn't like it. They communicated to you that they didn't want you to do it, and you stopped.

          Not just because they have a vagina.
          I understand that, but after years of experiencing "women tend to like this and men tend to like that" one starts to break things down to assuming certain people like one thing over another because of their gender. Statistically speaking, there are many things that separate typical women from typical men, and people of both sexes are conditioned to respond to those differences. Many women, in fact, do enjoy the "special" respect they receive and that only reinforces this conditioning. In other words, I really don't think you can only blame the folks who provide this sort of special respect or abide by these stereotypes.

          You can blame society, but in the end there is always going to be this form of conditioning. Maybe it doesn't have to take the form of there implying a stronger/weaker sex, but for as long as there are heterosexual couples that argue over men-are-pigs/women-are-sluts, men-like-boobs/women-like-pecks, toilet seat configurations, tearjerkers/action movies, and all the other things that don't necessarily make one sex superior to the other but just makes them stereotypically different, you're going to see males and females getting treated differently based on that.

          So the question is: Is that okay? Is it okay to assume the typical man doesn't like pink but likes sports and the typical woman doesn't like playing Doom but likes flowers? If your answer is no, then who and/or what should change to fix this discrepancy so that people won't look purely on gender to make assumptions?

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          • I don't think it's possible, or even advisable, to get rid of stereotypes entirely. They're our way of provisionally filling in knowledge gaps quickly. They're just a form of generalization. As with any other kind, it's important that they be reasonable and fair, [##### parallelism] not to lean on them heavily, and to remember that they *are* provisional assumptions and therefore if you have or can get actual specific knowledge then that overrides.
            "My in-laws are country people and at night you can hear their distinctive howl."

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