Malicious Food Tampering vs. Stupid Food Thieves

[siead_lietrathua]

If someone knows who is stealing from them and also knows their allergy and, instead of confronting them, decides to bring an allergen laden lunch the next time with the expectation that the thief is going to fall for the trap, then that's when the line is crossed from unfortunate event to potential homicide.

the thing is, you still have to prove their intent was for the person to EAT it. they could have just thought "well, i'll being a PBJ. when theif sees the peanut butter through the sandwich bag they won't eat it." that's not intending to poison someone, that's intending to bring a lunch to eat that hopefully won't get stolen.
as gingertea said, hiding the allergen proves intent to make a person sick (hiding nuts, using oils, etc). but a named bag containing an obvious allergen food is not the fault of the person who brought it. it's the fault of the person who stole it, saw it was a pbj, and still ate it.

edit to add:

All I'm saying is there still needs to be some kind of distinguishing and identifying label on the bag to avoid someone mistakenly taking the wrong bag.

like... a name? that's a clear indicator of who's bag it is.

[TheHuckster]

But some could argue that the intent of getting someone sick is valid by me bringing food in that I intended to eat but you just so happen to be allergic to.

If you intended to eat it, then you did not intend to get someone else sick. That's what intent means.

I see it as intent if it is intentionally hidden (a small piece of peanut butter well hidden under some ham, peanut oil brushed over a loaf of bread) both are not harmful to me, but would be to you, but if I have made or bought a salad that used crushed nuts (we used to make them daily at work) and if in the prep they get stirred in, they are not hidden in my opinion, just part of the recipe.

No, we are talking about two different intents. If you put a small piece of peanut butter hidden under some ham, intentionally, that isn't the same as doing that and then intentionally planting it in the refrigerator with the anticipation of someone else stumbling upon it.

but when people advocate that we need to label things meant for personal consumption on the off chance someone might steal it i think priorities are backwards. it's like saying we should safety-proof out homes on the off chance the guy you know wants to rob it gets hurt. well, sorry, but if someone is trying to steal from me, and they hurt themselves stealing the wrong shit, that's on them.

Fine. All I'm saying is there still needs to be some kind of distinguishing and identifying label on the bag to avoid someone mistakenly taking the wrong bag.

Look, here's the deal: If someone brings an allergen-laden lunch to work, labels it with their name (or brings some kind of obviously identifiable box/bag), without the expectation that it's going to be stolen by an allergic culprit, who then gets an allergy attack then clearly it's the thief who is to blame.

If someone knows who is stealing from them and also knows their allergy and, instead of confronting them, decides to bring an allergen laden lunch the next time with the expectation that the thief is going to fall for the trap, then that's when the line is crossed from unfortunate event to potential homicide.

[Ginger Tea]

but when people advocate that we need to label things meant for personal consumption on the off chance someone might steal it i think priorities are backwards.

I hate that in all walks of life, I cant watch X in movies because one child watched a movie at 2am in the living room (before TV's in kids bedrooms were a thing in the UK) and the parent complained, well what the fuck was your 8 year old child doing watching an 18 rated movie even the cut for TV edition at 2am on a school night?

should I start labelling my food "Warning may cause death." because i'm gonna stab the next fucker who eats my food? No, my name should suffice.

Though in all these hypotheticals its hard to imagine someone so blasé about their predicament that they would just take any food willy nilly, if I could be sick eating something I sure as hell wouldn't risk it, free food vs time off sick due to allergies is not an equation id like to work out.

heck, even blatanly malicious chili-pepper-laxative-brownies of DOOM can only hurt bob if bob goes and steals them from the bag that clearly marks them as Not His.

But in this case, if you yourself eat said brownie knowing you will suffer, I have no qualms with you making it, if you throw it away at the end of the shift as its been left untouched, then that makes you a bad person. It's only cool if its something you yourself are willing to eat.

I'm reminded of a scene where 3 people spike a dish for someone they don't like, too much salt, pepper and a 3rd, no spit or owt. 4th is possibly aware of some form of tampering and offers it to the 5th who had just come in and is un aware, as they didn't want 5th to suffer, one of the 3 drew the metaphorical short straw and ate it showing visible signs of distaste.

If you are not willing to drink your piss laced Lucozade then don't piss in it.

[siead_lietrathua]

I agree, and I don't think any of us are disagreeing with either point. The OP, however, implies that the scenario is the former and not the latter... in fact, the thread title even mentions "Malicious Food Tampering."

oh, i understand that. however, i think that simply labelling the food as "sarahs" means that the bag, and it's contents are safe for sarah. if bob feels entitled to steal sarah's lunch, then bob can't complain over anything he encounters in the sack marked for sarah. there would be zero risk for an allergy issue if bob stuck to his own stuff.
if sarah brought in a bag marked for bob full of his allergy foods, or gave him food as a gift that was unmarked, ok that i can see as being Not Fuckin Cool.

but when people advocate that we need to label things meant for personal consumption on the off chance someone might steal it i think priorities are backwards. it's like saying we should safety-proof out homes on the off chance the guy you know wants to rob it gets hurt. well, sorry, but if someone is trying to steal from me, and they hurt themselves stealing the wrong shit, that's on them.

heck, even blatanly malicious chili-pepper-laxative-brownies of DOOM can only hurt bob if bob goes and steals them from the bag that clearly marks them as Not His.

[Ginger Tea]

Wrong. Read those posts again.

Which I addressed in my second edit.

They are saying that only if the intent of the action is to get someone sick.

Nobody is saying you're a bad person if you simply bring food that you like, but someone else is allergic to.

But some could argue that the intent of getting someone sick is valid by me bringing food in that I intended to eat but you just so happen to be allergic to.

I see it as intent if it is intentionally hidden (a small piece of peanut butter well hidden under some ham, peanut oil brushed over a loaf of bread) both are not harmful to me, but would be to you, but if I have made or bought a salad that used crushed nuts (we used to make them daily at work) and if in the prep they get stirred in, they are not hidden in my opinion, just part of the recipe.

Shop bought or home made, if I brought in a salad with crushed nuts and those are not visible on top it is not my fault or responsibility you get some within the first mouth full.

Regarding the rest, I've already stated that should there be work enforced bans in place I would not knowingly be bringing in food anyway. If Blogs inc has told me in advance to never bring anchovies in, as just the smell alone could bring someone out in hives, I would not bring them in. Once it's office policy its on the books as a potential sackable offence.

[TheHuckster]

And I may have come across strong (not that I'm apologising) as some posts were saying "X is allergic to Y and you bring food in with Y in it you are a bad person." with some even saying criminal intent.

Wrong. Read those posts again. They are saying that only if the intent of the action is to get someone sick.

Nobody is saying you're a bad person if you simply bring food that you like, but someone else is allergic to.

When I say precautions, I'm talking about:

a.) Making sure it's safe to eat in their presence (some people can have nasty reactions if you even eat food with allergens in them nearby()

b.) Labeling my food or distinguishing it enough so someone who is allergic doesn't make a really bad mistake. Simply having a paper bag that's indistinguishable from other paper bags which contain peanuts could pose a problem.

c.) Being careful during potlucks or other events where one may be openly sharing food.

Usually someone who is extremely allergic is going to make these kinds of things clear already, and I'm not at all saying that one should treat it like they are carrying plague into the office by default.

[Seshat]

I have a food allergy that gives me hives. Eventually, if I have enough contact with it, it might develop into anaphylaxis (that's the 'omg get me to hospital nownownow' reaction).

My recommendation: buy a lunch box or bag that's very clearly yours and unmistakeable. Bright purple. Butterflies on it. Or red with trucks, or yellow and orange and biohazard symbols.
Label it as well.
With your lunch box/bag being so distinctive AND labelled, noone has any excuse to take your lunch. Not really much chance of 'oops, it looked just like mine and I didn't read the name'.


Because of my food allergy, I need to check any food that's yellow or orange because of food dyes or spices (my allergen is annatto, a spice with an dying effect similar to turmeric or saffron).
Because of that, I've decided for myself that the distinctive and highly individual lunchbox is the way to go, even if I have to put stickers on it myself, or stencil it or whatever. Prevents ME from accidentally picking up someone else's lunch, too!


Sadly, this is kind of a problem at potluck events. Most people couldn't tell me if 'natural food dye 160d' is in their corn chips.

[Ginger Tea]

And I may have come across strong (not that I'm apologising) as some posts were saying "X is allergic to Y and you bring food in with Y in it you are a bad person." with some even saying criminal intent. Hence why I differentiated between a smear of peanut butter under the ham vs peanut butter instead of butter or margarine. Food safe ingredients vs pissing in your lucosade that B always swigs from (there was a post last year or two about someone who did that at school, obviously s/he had no intention of drinking piss flavoured soda though I can't remember which side of the fence I finally ended on with that case, but its something I didn't do or have any intention of doing.)

No I am a hungry person and X is a tosser. It's not my fault X ate my Y flavoured meal, nor did I force it down their throat and say "choke on that you syphilis infected nose toad."



Some will say "well you know X is renowned for stealing food and allergic to Y so why did you bring food in with Y in it?"
Well I could say the same for "well you know X is renowned for stealing food and a Vegan so why did you bring food with meat in it?"

Same answer "Because I wanted to eat it."

I do admit that there are many premade items I could buy that may indeed contain peanuts or seafood or other allergens without me knowing as I do not need to check, hell if I had not seen a post about peanut oil in most Thai cooking I would never have known, basically someone said "if you have a peanut allergy never order Thai."



Another tale I read was of a woman who often dyed her hair, she noticed her shampoo was running low, and asked if any of her room mates were using it and no one was, she thought she wasn't using that much but let it slide, she dyes her hair again but the brand she uses recommended being mixed with the shampoo for regular top ups, seeing as no one was using her shampoo she thought nothing of filling it with the dye for her next session.
Cue that afternoon and one flat mate screams the house down running out of the shower with blue hair.

She was told no one was using her shampoo and each had a different brand of choice so it wasn't a mistake in the shower, no it was "I'll say I use brand X which is almost out, but to save money I'll use D's brand Z for a week, she wont notice."

EDIT:
Had she said to D "I'm out of my brand could I use yours?" she would have been informed that D's brand Z now contained blue dye and that it would be a very bad idea.

EDIT:
Had a quick scan of the first few posts, by the time I got to writing my initial post I had forgotten that there was an example in the OP that there was "Not fit for human consumption" option, so that might be where I got wires crossed with some posts saying "you did this you are bad" where I read it as "you brought a peanut based meal in knowing there is a peanut allergy food thief around."

So if those saying its a bad idea were posting about food that you wouldn't even give to your dog, then most of my stronger opinion's were based on a misunderstanding on my behalf, however, if those saying it is not a nice thing were still saying what is tantamount to "you know X is a vegan so why did you bring a turkey sandwich in" well I am adamantly un apologetic.

[TheHuckster]

I agree, and I don't think any of us are disagreeing with either point. The OP, however, implies that the scenario is the former and not the latter... in fact, the thread title even mentions "Malicious Food Tampering."

[siead_lietrathua]

i think the difference between what thehuckster and gingertea are saying is (and correct me if i'm wrong):

thehuckster: if you know someone steals your food, don't put something they are allergic to in it with the intention that they will steal and eat it.

gingertea: i'm going to bring the things i personally want to eat. if someone steals my shit, and happens to be allergic to the thing i wanted to eat, that's not my fault because it was my intent to eat it myself.

if this is a correct assessment of both points, and if what really matters is intent, then i think gingertea has it right. a person should be able to bring what they want to eat for lunch, and their name being on the bag should be sufficient. if someone decides to steal something clearly labelled as not theirs, then they are making a conscience choice to play russian roulette. it doesn't matter how detailed the label is, or if allergens are listed, because the tag clearly says "gingertea" and not "billybob", therefore it ain't billybobs. this is like, kindergarten 101.

[Ginger Tea]

Proper precautions goes both ways.

You have an allergy don't take food that you cant check the ingredients for.



Take my prawn pasta co worker quote

Each person has an allergy (even if the garlic one is just "I think I'm a vampire that's why I work nights").

We are all aware of each others allergies (or lack there of in my case), but nothing I am bringing in is destined to be shared, so if it is in a sealed Tupperware container or a ziplock sandwich bag, it has my name on it and that should suffice that "hands off" rules apply.

My sandwich doesn't magically get out of the bag and skull fuck their fruit salad, so cross contamination is a very low risk, it would only be a factor to what I bring in if the simple act of them shaking my hand after I handled food is enough to become a health risk, but in all my jobs I've never had to make physical contact with anyone, nor share a computer where food debris could gather in the keyboard and as the fridge doesn't turn into a food orgy once the door closes, I am not contaminating anyone's food just by having my peanut butter and Ham sandwich or prawn (if I ate it) pasta salad in a sealed container.

I am under no obligation to say "this product contains X Y or Z", the only way that would occur would be shop bought sandwiches.

Everything I would bring in would be something I myself am willing and able to eat, nothing is buried inside as if to catch someone 3 bites into it, for example a smear of peanut butter on some ham, its going to be Ham slathered in peanut butter.

Swap out peanut butter for crab paste and that's how I had some of my sandwiches at school.



IF and this is a big IF, my next or some hypothetical future job had an upfront ban on food types in the fridge then I would abide by it, some can, as I posted a paragraph or 3 above, have severe reactions to just touching someone who held a peanut or some other food stuff.
Should I be in a situation where my food is going missing and the peanut allergy guy is prime suspect, I would not put a smear in my Ham salad sandwich, my peanut butter is always blatantly peanut butter, knife wiped on the top of the bread.

Having an established blanket ban and flaunting it to get back at someone that I would not do.

No bans in place, then what I bring in is none of your concern, once after work I was waiting for the microwave to ping and the house workshy asked me who's mini pizza's were in the freezer (I didn't say they were mine, which they were) I just thought to myself "if you don't know who's they are, then they are not yours, if they are not yours leave them be."

What I am not doing (if I was in this hypothetical situation) is taking some peanut oil and an egg brush and going over every sandwich I make or laying the loaf on top of some freshly cooked prawns, there are no hidden 'traps' the only time it could come into it is if its something store bought or from a take away and I don't care to ask about its allergens risk, as again, I do not have one. I didn't ask what's in the #82 as nothing in it disagreed with me the last time I ate it, I don't know if its got peanut oil or some seafood paste, I don't know nor do I care.

If you can end up in hospital or the morgue due to food allergies, then why are you taking food you didn't make in the first place?

[TheHuckster]

Ginger Tea, I think you vastly missed the point.

The point is not to be overly cautious about what food you bring in or how you label them. For sure, one can be allergic to or have a sensitivity to just about anything, and it's not even confined to food, but clothing, perfume, and environmental particles. It doesn't make sense to label every single thing just because someone might be allergic to it.

The point people are making is if your food is being stolen regularly, and if you know who is doing it, and if you know that person happens to have an allergy of some kind, then it is wrong to plant that allergen as sort of a trap if and when they steal food again. That's it. If you are choosing to do something with the intent of causing harm to someone else, either actively or passively, it's wrong and could even be criminal.

This isn't about over-thinking the possibilities of someone inadvertently getting a horrible allergic reaction to something due to some freak accident because things weren't labeled properly. It's all about the person's intentions.

In all of the places I've worked, anyone who shared the kitchen tended to know eachother, and anytime someone had an allergy or some other issue, they would inform us of it, and we'd take the proper precautions.

[Ginger Tea]

A few weeks ago I read somewhere that a lot of Thai food is cooked in peanut oil, I've not had Thai or any other kind of Asian takeout, just microwaveable chicken chow mien and the odd tray of sushi from Tesco's on the way to or from work.

I rarely read the ingredients of food I eat, hell it was 3-4 years ago when I found out pork was in scotch eggs and I love eating them, I just never cared to read the label. The day I decide out of boredom to read the label whilst eating one and then commenting on it to a driver was the day two of the office staff were in and one was Asian and could have been (but I never asked) Muslim and the other looked at me as if I was being deliberate about talking about pig based meats in front of him, where as the truth was for all my years eating scotch eggs I never knew the ingredients beyond egg and bread crumbs, the grey tasty bit in the middle was a mystery, I didn't even think it could have been a meat of some kind as it tasted nothing like sandwich meats did or cooked joints.

I don't read the ingredients as I do not suffer from allergies nor am I on a diet that would also cause me to count calories or avoid certain food stuff. So the use of peanut oil in Thai food would never concern me health wise and had I not seen a post somewhere I would to this day not know it was a thing.

So for example I was working a night shift and passed a takeaway and decided to have something from there instead of some meal deal from the supermarket I wouldn't know any of the ingredients nor would I care as I don't suffer from allergies myself and the sea food aversion I have is not medical, more I cant bring myself to eat prawns as they leave the head on them and their beady eyes look back at me, it was the 90's when I last tried eating one and I spent the longest time thinking "Stop looking at me, your dead already, me not eating you isn't going to change that." in the end one of the dogs ate it.

If I don't see the prawn/shrimp or if it is blended or cut up so its not recognisable I can eat it, but not whole, id probably have a buffet of live insects in a bush tucker trial before I willingly eat a whole prawn/shrimp.

Hell I might not even know what I am ordering, it might just end up being a #82 where only the brave try and pronounce the name, I had a #82 from there one time and liked it and decided on a whim to get another.

So I don't know what exactly is in this hypothetical #82 so if there is sea food or peanut oil, I cant be held accountable as I don't have a clue.

Some posts either implied or outright said premeditated when it comes to bringing in food you know your suspect is allergic to, again I am not going to change my eating habits to suit others on the off chance that someone might take offence just as much as literally take it.

I think it was CS (though it could have been not always working) where I read of someone throwing out meals due to them not being vegan, your just a fucking secretary you don't get to dictate what other people eat, its not as if we go around trying to stick a fist full of ham in your gob.

It's not premeditated if I happen to bring food to work that someone is allergic to, even if 9/10 my food vanishes. What I buy or make to bring to work is something that I WANTED to eat in the first place, your health doesn't factor into it.

"Here honey, here's your lunch"
"What's in it?"
"Shrimps stir fried in peanut oil (is that how they use it?) with pasta seasoned with garlic."
"I cant take this to work!"
"Why not?"
"one guys got a sea food allergy, another nuts, ones got celiac and the 4th is convinced he's a vampire."
"Are you going to share the food around?"
"No there's only enough for one here."
"Then what's the fucking problem? you don't want it find the dog can have it."

"Oh but it's not hard to label allergens"
if I know they are there to begin with, but why stop with whats known?

WARNING
This product may contain
Peanuts
Nuts in general
Sea Food
Gluten
...
ETC

print off a few dozen sheets of address lables at work and apply them to everything in the fridge

Apple with said warning lable, can of cola, it says that this is my food and there is a chance that an apple or factory sealed can of coke may contain seafood etc.

I would do that, that is why I just have my name and nothing else, well once I wrote "MY NAME ONLY DO NOT FUCKING EAT." as I had a few days of my Tesco's bags being pilphered and I got into trouble over it, I just said "Oh I label food like that at home because <Guy who got fired lived at my house> will eat anything." and they let me off.

I'm not going out of my way to alter my meal plan to deliberately fuck with you if peanut butter is part of my diet at home and occasionally at work, I might want to have something different every day so not to feel too tied to a routine, hell it might be that peanut butter and ham is the only thing I have left in the fridge.

I stress that I would be eating it should I get to it first, what I am not doing is jizzing in it, pissing in the bottle or going to your food and lacing it with something I know you are allergic to or would make anyone in general sick.

When you say or imply premeditated you are policing the diets of people who have no special dietary concerns, we've seen posts where kids cant bring some chocolate bars to school because of peanuts, granted that's because kids like to share, but willingly handing food out is far different to someone taking your school bag from you opening your lunch box and taking a bite out of your snickers bar.

If the child is allergic then s/he should know that the snickers bar they just stole isn't safe for them, its different if the child took a Mars bar wrapper and carefully resealed a snickers, the label says mars but the contents are not, that's premeditated.

So if schools end up policing food out of the premises then those saying premeditated are IMO headed down towards the same with the staff break fridge, I myself would just remove it and say "Keep it on your desk and don't bring in anything that needs to be kept cool." that or "There's a 7/11 near by, fuck off there at lunch but don't bring it in the building."

[Jetfire]

I keep my lunch bag with me, so food stealing isn't an issue for me. (Advantage of working in an office environment).

But if I did have a problem with a food stealer, I wouldn't sabotage, nor will I label any more than just my name on my food. I'd just start complaining to HR and in general, and get louder and louder each time it happens, until something is done about it.

Frankly, if there is someone who steals food, I have to wonder what else they are stealing?

[Mr Hero]

I've enjoyed all the responses here so far. Ginger Tea has stated exactly how I feel about each scenario I presented in the OP. And I figured we'd all agree about the trap food because it was not intended for anyone, let alone the consumer.

I have no sympathy for a food thief with diagnosed allergies. Your choices are just setting yourself up for a Darwin. And if the food was taken from a personal fridge, rather than a communal fridge, I have even less sympathy for you.