Investigation launched after dead people are registered to vote in Harrisonburg

[mjr]

But wait...I thought we were told this kind of thing didn't happen, and that there was no voter fraud going on.

Surprise, surprise.

http://www.richmond.com/news/virgini...aa70012f9.html

[s_stabeler]

not quite. voter fraud occurs, but a lot of the voter ID laws would disenfranchise more legitimate voters that- for whatever reason- couldn't get the relevant ID than it would reduce fraudulent votes.

In short, the issue is that voter ID laws skirt dangerously close to being a modern version of the Jim Crow laws- in that it would make it far too easy to disenfranchise large numbers of people ( at it's most basic, make it so that you have to apply for the ID in person, and- conveniently- the place where you can apply is only open when most people would be at work. There, you've immediately disenfranchised a fair few people on minimum wage, since they can't afford to take a day off to go get the ID)

[mjr]

In short, the issue is that voter ID laws skirt dangerously close to being a modern version of the Jim Crow laws- in that it would make it far too easy to disenfranchise large numbers of people ( at it's most basic, make it so that you have to apply for the ID in person, and- conveniently- the place where you can apply is only open when most people would be at work. There, you've immediately disenfranchised a fair few people on minimum wage, since they can't afford to take a day off to go get the ID)

To this point, I'd think that it would be fairly easy to come up with "work arounds" for situations such as these.

But to that point: Could the people who couldn't take off to register to vote (which, you have to be registered anyway to vote, regardless), take off to actually go vote?

In other words, if you can't take off to register (or do it on your day off), can you take off to go vote?

I'm not trying to disenfranchise anyone. I simply want to make sure that only people who are actually eligible to vote can do so -- and only once.

[Greenday]

To this point, I'd think that it would be fairly easy to come up with "work arounds" for situations such as these.

But to that point: Could the people who couldn't take off to register to vote (which, you have to be registered anyway to vote, regardless), take off to actually go vote?

In other words, if you can't take off to register (or do it on your day off), can you take off to go vote?

I'm not trying to disenfranchise anyone. I simply want to make sure that only people who are actually eligible to vote can do so -- and only once.

Counterpoints:

Why does anyone have to take off at all to vote? Why doesn't America treat voting seriously like other countries and make it a national holiday? America's voter turnout is a joke and this is a big reason for it.

YOU might not personally be trying to disenfranchise anyone, but the Republican party is specifically trying to use the idea of voter fraud as an excuse to disenfranchise people who lean towards the liberal side (a.k.a. poor minorities).

Twenty fake voters who wouldn't be able to vote anyway come election day is not proof of mass voter fraud.

[mjr]

Counterpoints:

Why does anyone have to take off at all to vote? Why doesn't America treat voting seriously like other countries and make it a national holiday? America's voter turnout is a joke and this is a big reason for it.

Valid. But there's also absentee voting and early voting. I suppose those are in place to somewhat "remedy" that.

Also, it's possible that people just have so much distrust that they're just choosing not to vote. I've seen numerous times where people make the paraphrased statement, "I'm smart because I don't vote."

YOU might not personally be trying to disenfranchise anyone, but the Republican party is specifically trying to use the idea of voter fraud as an excuse to disenfranchise people who lean towards the liberal side (a.k.a. poor minorities).

That's why we would have to be careful about how the law was crafted. But again, if one is required to register in order to vote, couldn't it be set up to where you get a photo ID at the time you register? If poor minorities want to vote, that's cool with me. I just want to make sure that they are legally eligible to vote, and only vote the requisite number of times. Why is that wrong?

Twenty fake voters who wouldn't be able to vote anyway come election day is not proof of mass voter fraud.

It's not "mass" voter fraud. It's simply voter fraud. And this case came to light as a sheer coincidence, it seems. But even if they are deceased, all you'd have to do in that case is show up, vote, show up again, and vote under the other person's name. Then you got to cast two votes.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

Voter fraud exists, no one said it doesn't, what we say is that it is not the problem that the Republicans make it out to be. It is not HUGE, happening everywhere, and has the power to swing entire elections - unlike money.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/...ry?id=17213376

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mostly-a-myth/

(And, don't immediately go "Oh blah blah Washington Post Leftie Controlled News blah" - it uses multiple, unbiased different sources and explains all of them to show it.)

Also... 20? Out of how many people registered to vote? The only voter fraud that Voter ID laws stop are impersonation fraud... which is the smallest percentage of voter fraud anyway.

[mjr]

Voter fraud exists, no one said it doesn't, what we say is that it is not the problem that the Republicans make it out to be. It is not HUGE, happening everywhere, and has the power to swing entire elections - unlike money.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/...ry?id=17213376

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...mostly-a-myth/

(And, don't immediately go "Oh blah blah Washington Post Leftie Controlled News blah" - it uses multiple, unbiased different sources and explains all of them to show it.)

Also... 20? Out of how many people registered to vote? The only voter fraud that Voter ID laws stop are impersonation fraud... which is the smallest percentage of voter fraud anyway.

Ok, so on what level is voter fraud acceptable? How much? Look, all I'm really getting at is we need to make sure that elections in this country are as fair as possible. Be it voting machines, paper ballots, non-partisan election oversight, whatever. It needs to be fair. How many people right now think there's going to be some sort of voter fraud and/or cheating going on, from either party? And how much do you think is actually going to go on?

But hey, Liberals (and many Democrats) want "Sensible gun laws". I want "Sensible voter laws."

Why is there a difference? The Constitution gives me the right to firearms and the right to vote.

I have to have an ID to get a firearm, to buy booze, and I have to keep one on my person when I'm driving.

[Kheldarson]

Ok, so on what level is voter fraud acceptable? How much? .

Honestly, it's a "baby in the bathwater" situation. It's not that there's an acceptable level of voter fraud, it's that there's an unacceptable amount of disenfranchisement in order to control fraud. And since voter fraud is a negligible part of the vote count, saying that controlling it by disenfranchised a significant part of the population is the wrong view.

Honestly, though, I think we need a national system at this point. Make it the law to vote and tie it to your taxes. The IRS can give you a password in order to access the polls at any computer. Polling places simply help those who don't have a computer at home to access the system. Computer tallies. Boom. Done.

[Gravekeeper]

Look, all I'm really getting at is we need to make sure that elections in this country are as fair as possible.

A) Bullshit, you started this thread specifically with a dig at the criticism of voter ID laws.

B) Bullshit, if you actually wanted elections in the country to be as fair as possible you wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.

C) Bullshit, if this was a topic you genuinely cared about instead of an opportunity for you to pointlessly stick it to the "other side" then you would have done some research and/or started this topic from a position of intellectual curiosity. Rather than from from a position of childish antagonism.

TL;DR: Go stir shit somewhere else.

[mjr]

Honestly, though, I think we need a national system at this point. Make it the law to vote and tie it to your taxes. The IRS can give you a password in order to access the polls at any computer. Polling places simply help those who don't have a computer at home to access the system. Computer tallies. Boom. Done.

Good idea (seriously, that's not a bad idea at all -- though I don't know about mandating voting), but to play Devil's Advocate: Let me turn it around. Under that system, what about those who don't have access to a computer/transportation/whatever? How would they vote? And what about people for whom it's actually illegal to vote? Like green card holders, felons, and illegal immigrants? It's the same sort of deal, isn't it?

Though I do think your idea is intriguing, I'd work on tweaking it, but it is a good one.

[Kheldarson]

Good idea, but to play Devil's Advocate: Let me turn it around. What about those who don't have access to a computer/transportation/whatever? How would they vote?

We look to other nations which have required voting and see how they handle it.

And what about people for whom it's actually illegal to vote? Like green card holders, felons, and illegal immigrants?

It's all probably already noted in the IRS database.

[mjr]

A) Bullshit, you started this thread specifically with a dig at the criticism of voter ID laws.

B) Bullshit, if you actually wanted elections in the country to be as fair as possible you wouldn't have started this thread to begin with.

Aside from using the same, tired arguments, explain to me why using an ID is a bad idea. The people that you claim would be "disenfranchised" must also use an ID at other times as well. Not only that, but again, they must by law register to vote. If you're not registered, you're not voting. So you're telling me they can register, but not get an ID?

TL;DR: Go stir shit somewhere else.

After you.

[mjr]

We look to other nations which have required voting and see how they handle it.

And how many of those other nations have voter ID laws? Just curious.

[Kheldarson]

And how many of those other nations have voter ID laws? Just curious.

Not many. And not as particular as us.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

[mjr]

Not many. And not as particular as us.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws

Oh, this is RICH!!!

Gravekeeper is bitching at me, yet CANADA (where I believe he is, if I'm not mistaken) actually HAS voter ID laws...

Oh, the irony...