The rape culture thread.

[NodmiTheSellout]

I think you're picking and choosing dictionary definitions, because most of them say "hatred, dislike or mistrust." It's used as an umbrella term for oppressive attitudes toward women, in most cases. Which reducing women down to their sexual usefulness definitely is.

Many songs I listen to contain misogyny in the form of "I hate the power a woman has when I'm so attracted to her, she needs to die" or "A woman so beautiful can't be trusted to exist in such an ugly world, I gotta kill her", i.e., ugly sentiments that a good progressive would probably refrain from consuming. I admit that my logic of giving it a free pass because it's a bit more over the top than the ridiculous way romance is painted in pop items (i.e. Twilight) or sex-without-romance is addressed (objectifying media like certain songs or certain kinds of pornography) isn't very sound. What it comes down to is, I like these musicians, the songs entertain me, and I don't want to stop listening to them to prove a point. Which makes me something of a poor progressive, compared with those who hear something like that and stop listening immediately. I admit that. People ain't perfect. It doesn't mean I'm ignorant of the criticisms and can't admit their validity.

[Hobbs]

misogyny

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

misogyny
[misoj′inē]
Etymology: Gk, misein, to hate, gyne, women
an aversion to women. misogynist, n., misogynistic, adj

[NodmiTheSellout]

Nah, it mostly gets a free pass because it's either a. a highly fictional environment (as opposed to, say, a song that purports to be a document of how the singer's relationships with women actually go), b. highly self-aware, kind of satirical or c. it's not misogynistic so much as the context in which rape is mentioned is kind of iffy (i.e., is rape an appropriate metaphor for anything? some people believe rape should only describe, well, rape), which is a specific case--and that particular musician has been much closer to the topic of rape than I ever have, so I'm not going to tell him how to express himself in that regard. I don't have some magical, transcendent authority on the subject of rape just by being a woman.

But I do think there's a difference between songs written by the artist performing them and, say, songs written by some professional songwriter to be performed by someone else. Because in that case I can't chalk it down to telling someone how to express themselves--their first thought is "does this sell?". There's something more insidious about selling misogyny than, say, being kind of a fuckface who can't handle a breakup and writes songs about killing women as a way of dealing with it.

As for the suggestion that it's the misogyny that puts people off. . .are you serious? Misogyny is all over popular music, measuring women's worth by how fuckable they are, etc..There's only one musician I listen to where it's so prominent that I can see it turning people off, and that's the one where he's sort of created this hyper-sexual character to play with; it's intended to illustrate a certain mindset to the extreme, not condone it. He makes it so cartoonish that there's just no way it's meant to represent his views about women.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

The less pessimistic side of me wants to think that's why fewer people listen to them... but that side can fuck off, given the circumstances. I don't distinguish between widely and narrowly heard messages. What you put out there is on you, regardless of how many people it reaches. More listeners may worsen the situation, but you're no less a scumbag for putting it out there/preaching it.

[Fryk]

So you're saying the music you like to listen to gets a free pass because not a lot of people like it? Hogwash. That just means that less people listen to their misogyny, that's all.

[Hobbs]

It's still a marketing ploy. The people who most likely buy burglar alarms are new homeowners, newlyweds, new parents, etc. So the marketing trend is to show that a family is vulnerable w/o the anti-theft system. The absent-husband is part of the ploy; "They can get your family when you can't protect them." Despite the "advances" of equal-rights, I would presume most, if not all, men still feel protective of their wives and children. People aren't meant to act rational in these commercials, because the point is to sell the product.

By the way, in the same corollary, I've seen commercials for Krav Maga that show both men and women taking the classes.

[NodmiTheSellout]

My point is that they don't have to use the woman alone crap all the time. They can use men, men WITHOUT borderline hysterical wives/girlfriends. I can't remember a single commercial depicting a single man though. Some depict single women or mothers, some depict married or dating couples. . .but apparently a man is never vulnerable. Because men don't have valued personal possessions and can wake up out of a dead sleep and drop an intruder, y'know.

[Hobbs]

Anyway, it's rare that actual rape is depicted in commercials, though it's certainly insinuated in, say, security commercials--notice that most of them contain terrified women talking to such soothing men. . .if you don't get our security system, A MAN WILL COME IN AND RAPE YOU. Of course they can't say that and hope to get on the air, so. . .

OF course that's the message of ADT/Broadview/etc. They're trying to market and sell a product about defending from home invasion/crimes. So of course they're going to give worst-case scenarios. Although, most of the ones I've seen depict home invasions, I have seen one about a stalker-ish ex-boyfriend.

[NodmiTheSellout]

It was intended as a bit of playful fun. There was a huge shitstorm over it across all sorts of feminist blogs (hence why it's on YouTube and not Method's website), and they used almost exactly that phrase to describe it. Apparently the fact that they're cartoon bubbles makes it hilarious.

Anyway, it's rare that actual rape is depicted in commercials, though it's certainly insinuated in, say, security commercials--notice that most of them contain terrified women talking to such soothing men. . .if you don't get our security system, A MAN WILL COME IN AND RAPE YOU. Of course they can't say that and hope to get on the air, so. . .

Again, rape culture isn't even about actual depiction of rape in media. It's about how media portrays the relationship between women and men--it's how it encourages male entitlement to female bodies, tries its damnedest to reduce rape down to "sex she regretted", paints "It's not rape, it's SURPRISE SEX!" as funny and witty, and similar things of that sort. Really, the most blatant example, in my view, is how courts and newspapers handle a rape case. Did you know it's impossible to rape a woman wearing tight pants? Because there's absolutely no other way that a woman who doesn't want to fuck might be persuaded to take off her pants.

EDIT: Something just occurred to me about advertising and why I regard it as different from music. . .at least the music I listen to. The music I listen to isn't designed to appeal to a large audience. The people making it more or less acknowledge that the creation of their music is a selfish act, in large part, and they're kind of just lucky that people enjoy it. So, it's a product inasmuch as it's something they sell to make money, but it's not a product in that it's a reasonable desire that huge, varied groups of people will buy it. This isn't me trying to say people who like popular music are brainless consumers or any such snobby bullshit. . .I just think there's something more malicious in writing/executing something that objectifies women, glorifies unwanted male aggression, slyly blames women for the crimes perpetrated against them, etc., when you begin the process with "How can I sell this to as many people as possible?" Because then you're using people's misogyny as a marketing tool and. . .eugh. It's just gross.

[Hyena Dandy]

I agree the ad is creepy, but I don't think its rape, and I don't think its INTENDED to be fun and playful. The idea was to scare you with the idea of what you were putting in the bath. And that was just what they did. You're SUPPOSED to be disturbed.

[Fryk]

Ah, but art is a form of communication... and all communication is persuasion at heart. Like advertising is.

I I agree with Hobbs that that commercial isn't a form of rape. But it IS objectifying, and even as a guy I found it creepy.

[Hobbs]

That's not rape. That's voyeurism. The two are both crimes, but there are strict differences between them. As it is, it's not glorifying rape, nor objectifying women. It's using (albeit an odd method) to get a message across. If it had been a man showering, would you have raised such a fuss? Anyone would be uncomfortable knowing a group or even one person was watching them shower. In this case, I think you'd need a lesson from Freud, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." I've never even seen this advertisement, when was it aired?

[Red Panda]

I always thought it was a bit odd how rape in Rescue Me never was a relationship killer. In one case it actually helped the relationship.

[NodmiTheSellout]

How is rape depicted in advertisement?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j48Z0Ns3Bk4

Rape, when depicted in advertisement, is written off as "funny and playful". Because women not feeling secure in their own bodies, feeling vulnerable on a base level like that--it's hilarious.

Objectification of women is also a large part of rape culture (if women are simply objects, why should their consent be respected?), so I don't think I need to point you to the three million things companies use women's bodies to sell.

Couldn't you argue that advertising, in itself, is an art form?

You could. But it's not an art form in the same way that other things are art forms. It has a motive, to sell; it's an expression of why [product] is great and you should buy it. Whereas the things I mention exist for expression and entertainment. Not to mention, it's not only men who purchase things. In fact, in a lot of families, women do most of the shopping--shopping for food, for cleaning products, stopping at fast-food places in between such shopping trips, etc.. So when a commercial clearly doesn't even consider women when it's being made, it's alienating a huge chunk of its customer base. Which is just a bad idea. Many women will buy the products anyway, just because they're necessary for whatever reason, but advertising without insinuating that, for instance, women just loooove cleaning so goddamn much if they have [product], would probably be more effective. I understand that the intended message in many cleaning commercials is "this product means you're finished cleaning faster, and it's done better, too!", but it gets muddled up with imagery insinuating that women do nothing but clean and do shit for their kids.

[Fryk]

Couldn't you argue that advertising, in itself, is an art form?