"it's not a slippery slope" my left foot

[BlaqueKatt]

Sorry had to saw this and knew it would be fratching worthy-

this is what happens when you ban guns----knives are next

""Tackling knife culture, especially among young people, is paramount to the safety of our communities, and I am determined to reduce the devastation caused by knife crime," then Home Secretary Charles Clarke said in the spring of 2006.

Since then there has been a knife amnesty, numerous government initiatives and photo opportunities, with ministers slamming home the same message - that knives will not be tolerated.

But still the deaths caused by knives go on. "

Article here--and no this is NOT satire, it is from the BBC


pretty soon we'll be down to pointy sticks and rocks, what will you ban then?---some people are just violent banning different weapons WILL NOT change that. They'll just move onto the next weapon.

[crazylegs]

we already have more than sufficient laws re knives, The offensive weapons act is very specific about what you can and cannot possess

[BlaqueKatt]

think you missed the point-these are the same things that was said about guns-now the criminals are moving on to knives(now the problem/focus has merely shifted to another type of weapon)-and the article states most are using standard kitchen knives. The point is the only thing banning guns does is makes criminals move on to other weapons and law-abiding citizens cannot defend themselves.

most of the "guns should be banned" people in the US are claiming that banning guns will not start a "slippery slope" to banning other items----now that "gun culture" is out of England they are focusing on "knife culture", that is the very definition of "slippery slope" argument. The US has tons of laws on guns, just like England has tons of sufficient laws on knives. Criminals don't care how many laws are passed, or what is baned or illegal to own---they are by definition criminals.

Slippery slope argument:
If A happens, then by a gradual series of small steps through B, C,…, X, Y, eventually Z will happen, too.
Z should not happen.
Therefore, A should not happen, either.


A has already happened(banning guns)
B has started(more knife crime)
C Banning knives is the next logical step

D-criminals move on to another weapon-and the cycle continues.

[rahmota]

Exactly boozy. That is something we in the NRA have been trying to get across to people for a long time now. The forces who would see every law abiding citizen reduced down to a cowering unarmed victim will always try and frame any tool people try to defend themselves with as the worst evil thing on the planet. After knives then will come rocks and sharp pointy sticks (which technically could be a pencil you know) will be demonized.

Crazylegs just a reminder about criminals. Criminals are criminals because they ignore or do not obey the law. Do you think making MORE laws against weapons is going to suddenly make that certain kind of person into a law abiding upstanding citizen? If so then i shall meet you in the place where there are no shadows.

[Greenday]

Crazylegs just a reminder about criminals. Criminals are criminals because they ignore or do not obey the law. Do you think making MORE laws against weapons is going to suddenly make that certain kind of person into a law abiding upstanding citizen? If so then i shall meet you in the place where there are no shadows.

This is the main argument that tips the scale for me. I mean, criminals will have weapons no matter what. What good are the laws then? De-arming those who would properly use these things be it for whatever legal activity it is? So now the only people with weapons are the military, the police, and criminals. Man are the law-abiding citizens screwed...

[AFPheonix]

Because those laws regarding weaponry pile more years onto the bad guy's sentence when he finally gets his ass nailed to the wall. Furthermore, that argument holds about as much water as "well, why bother making murder illegal? Criminals are going to ignore the law and murder anyways."

[Boozy]

Exactly boozy. That is something we in the NRA have been trying to get across to people for a long time now.

I think you mean, "Exactly BlaqueKatt."

For the record, I agree with AFPheonix on this issue.

[Slytovhand]

think you missed the point-these are the same things that was said about guns-now the criminals are moving on to knives(now the problem/focus has merely shifted to another type of weapon)-and the article states most are using standard kitchen knives. The point is the only thing banning guns does is makes criminals move on to other weapons and law-abiding citizens cannot defend themselves.

You are aware that this argument actually justifies the ban? If said criminal wasn't able to get their hands on a gun, and now they can't get their hands on a knife, then they'll have to try using some other less lethal weapon... one which potential victims or witnesses in the area will be more capable of removing and overpowering the attacker...

Ok... they get down to a rock... nowhere near as deadly as a knife or gun...

makes perfect sense to me


Slyt

[rahmota]

I think you mean, "Exactly BlaqueKatt."

Oops sorry about that the both of you. Got used to coming back to the board here and seeing boozy having made several good points on things as well as wasnt exactly paying attention to things.

You are aware that this argument actually justifies the ban?

Actually no. Laws are only obeyed by law abiding citizens. You outlaw firearms, knives anythign a law abiding citizen can defend themselves with the criminals will still have firearms, knives and things they can attack, kill, and maim citizens with. What should a citizen dfo trust that the cops will be able to protect them? Ha might as well ask for the tooth fairy to help out for what most cops are worth when it comes to protecting individual citizens.

And while a rock may take longer to get a large crowd of people a rock can still be quite a leathal and effective weapon when uzsed properly just ask a guy named goliath...

Because those laws regarding weaponry pile more years onto the bad guy's sentence when he finally gets his ass nailed to the wall.

Yeah right sure. Let me tell you somethign with a good lawyer and parola and all if all you have is a weapons violation then the guy will be out in 1/2 the time you might think. I was in jail with a guy who was on his 7th weapons violation and was only serving 60 days in jail for that. He was facing according to his papers up to 5 years for the assault charge that came down with it but on the weapon charge no added time whatsoever....

[Pedersen]

Ok... they get down to a rock... nowhere near as deadly as a knife or gun...

You are so correct! Rocks have never been sharpened, wrapped in leather, and (effectively) turned into a knife before.

Nor have they ever been attached to the end of a very long stick, and made into spears.

Nor have they ever been attached to the end of shorter, thicker, sticks, and used as an axe.

Nor have people ever bent sticks, put strings on them, and attached rocks to other short and thin stick to make a bow and arrow.

And, most importantly of all, all of those are incredibly weak weapons. Wars were unable to be fought with them, because the enemy just didn't fall down or die should somebody use them. Trees were unable to be felled, and wild animals didn't have any fear from them, since they were so weak.

Yep, got to agree with you: Guns and knives of all varieties are wrong. We should just outright ban them all.

And scissors, too. Oh, forks as well. Grapefruit spoons. Sporks. Steel toed boots. Wire, too, almost forgot: Wires were used to make garottes. Can't have any wire around. Ohhh, computer cases. Take the cover, bend it enough, and it will come apart, and leave a nice jagged edge. There's a blade in the making in every computer case ever sold.

Hammers, too. Especially claw hammers. Chainsaws. Band saws. Oh, snap, I forgot garbage disposals. Could subdue a person, force their hand into a garbage disposal, and turn it on. Nasty stuff, there.

Gotta go, I see some large pieces of metal hurling down the roads at high speeds, and it looks like there are people actually inside of them, possibly even directing where these things go and what they do. How can we not ban them? Gotta go try to stop them!

[crazylegs]

Crazylegs just a reminder about criminals. Criminals are criminals because they ignore or do not obey the law. Do you think making MORE laws against weapons is going to suddenly make that certain kind of person into a law abiding upstanding citizen? If so then i shall meet you in the place where there are no shadows.

You forget what I do for a job.

The entire point about my thread was that we already have sufficient legislation and that we don't need anymore, I was agreeing with the OP...

[protege]

You are aware that this argument actually justifies the ban? If said criminal wasn't able to get their hands on a gun, and now they can't get their hands on a knife, then they'll have to try using some other less lethal weapon..

Actually, that's not always the case. Many times, you have the cash, you can get what you need. Didn't the US try to ban some types of assault rifles--AK47s IIRC--not long ago? Didn't stop them from hitting the streets. It's not uncommon to hear rapid fire at night in certain areas of Pittsburgh...

And before we start bashing cops...consider this. Where I live, we literally have no crime. The occasional vandalism, but that's pretty much it. Because the borough I live in is tiny (2 square miles) and everyone knows everyone, not very much goes on. Most of the cops are pretty decent guys. Sure, there are a couple of assholes on the force, but that's true everywhere. Whenever something happens (fire, accident, etc.) the cops are usually there pretty damn quickly Only thing that bugs me, is because they're so visible, crime is pretty low--because of *that*, there's not really much for them to do...but set up speed traps.

[aniwahya]

Rocks? Hell in prison toothbrushes are lethal, please don't give them rocks!

As far as weapons go, it is ridiculous how at risk we allow ourselves to be made. Criminals don't care how many weapons laws they break. Look at how many people on parole carry a gun.

Secondly, I carry a knife on me at all times. Not because I feel it makes me safer as a weapon. Personally, I'd rather bludgeon someone to death with my cane, or use my belt as a flail, choke them unconscious (submission hold or improvised garrote) than stab them. Blood is messy dammit, and I hate doing laundry. I carry a knife because it is one of the essential things you need in a survival situation that cannot be easily replaced or improvised. It also gives me an edge (pun intended) if someone is trying to restrain me, but doesn't search me )happens more often than you'd think).
My 2cp

[Slytovhand]

Actually no. Laws are only obeyed by law abiding citizens.

If you re-read my post, it was that the argument ..."these are the same things that was said about guns-now the criminals are moving on to knives(now the problem/focus has merely shifted to another type of weapon)-..." justifies the ban... if you ban the guns, the criminals move to knives. If you ban the knives, the criminals move to...?

You are so correct! Rocks have never been sharpened, wrapped in leather, and (effectively) turned into a knife before.

Nor have they ever been attached to the end of a very long stick, and made into spears.

Nor have they ever been attached to the end of shorter, thicker, sticks, and used as an axe.

Nor have people ever bent sticks, put strings on them, and attached rocks to other short and thin stick to make a bow and arrow.

And, most importantly of all, all of those are incredibly weak weapons. Wars were unable to be fought with them, because the enemy just didn't fall down or die should somebody use them. Trees were unable to be felled, and wild animals didn't have any fear from them, since they were so weak.

I'm totally surprised with you Pedersen.

You've shown a lot of knowledge over a broad range of subjects, so I'm totally flabbergasted that every single point you made here is actually incorrect! :wow:

History has, in fact, shown us that all of the above....oh...sorry.. you were being sarcastic....

Yep, got to agree with you: Guns and knives of all varieties are wrong. We should just outright ban them all.

And scissors, too. Oh, forks as well. Grapefruit spoons. Sporks. Steel toed boots. Wire, too, almost forgot: Wires were used to make garottes. Can't have any wire around. Ohhh, computer cases. Take the cover, bend it enough, and it will come apart, and leave a nice jagged edge. There's a blade in the making in every computer case ever sold.

Hammers, too. Especially claw hammers. Chainsaws. Band saws. Oh, snap, I forgot garbage disposals. Could subdue a person, force their hand into a garbage disposal, and turn it on. Nasty stuff, there.

Gotta go, I see some large pieces of metal hurling down the roads at high speeds, and it looks like there are people actually inside of them, possibly even directing where these things go and what they do. How can we not ban them? Gotta go try to stop them!

How about... claw hammers, chainsaws, garbage disposal units... and machetes, grapefruit spoons etc... have a time and place for them. Carrying them into a nightclub is not one of them.

As Crazylegs mentioned, there are already laws in place... and I presume when it comes to knives in particular, carrying a concealed blade over a certain length and description in public would be banned. So... I wonder what the MP's are trying to do with the laws to make it tougher.. would be nice to have some specifics given.

I was going to say on another thread (and still might) that the best 'defence' in society against crime is a more community minded attitude... where neighbours know each other, respect each other and the police force.. hence the thread relating to the Pakistani mother and her child... (would you agree Crazy??)


Slyt


(oh.. you forgot fresh fruit. Being attacked by a criminal armed with a banana is pretty serious!....)

[crazylegs]

I was going to say on another thread (and still might) that the best 'defence' in society against crime is a more community minded attitude... where neighbours know each other, respect each other and the police force.. hence the thread relating to the Pakistani mother and her child... (would you agree Crazy??)

(oh.. you forgot fresh fruit. Being attacked by a criminal armed with a banana is pretty serious!....)

Indeed it is, the strongest communities are those that stand united against criminals. If you go out on your own to confront a group of delinqunits you'll probably lose, if every householder in the street goes out, you'll win. (I'm not talking in a physical fight type scenario either, that typ of show of strength is normally enough to dampen the spirits of any would be hoodlum)

You can make a plastic cup into a weapon (the disposable water fountain cups) as well as the disposable plastic food trays. Shall we ban those too?