Conservatives, Republicans, and American debate

[Jaden]

I have not been active in this forum for several years, up until recently since, as most of you probably know, I've been having something of a breakdown recently. However, I have still checked in on this forum, oh, once a month or so just to see what people are talking about. I feel like Republicans and more conservative types aren't very well-represented on here, so I wanted to discuss some things with you all. I hope you're willing to listen.

Let me place a disclaimer here by saying that I understand that this is a debate site, and I'm certainly not saying that the issues should not be discussed or that everybody should try to get along and agree to disagree. That may be the way we should act in day to day life, but clearly the very purpose of this forum is to disagree with one another.

You see, I am a registered Republican. I consider myself fiscally conservative, and socially somewhere in the middle. I fully support gay rights, and am constantly attempting to battle homophobia, anti-gay sentiments, and anti-gay marriage ideas in my more conservative friends and family by discussing these things with them and poking holes in their arguments where I can. I admit, with much shame, that I used to be that way, but fortunately I have grown up and become fully accepting of people of any sexuality. I am against abortion, due to my concern that the rights of the fetus to live supercede the rights of the mother to abort, and some may take that to mean that I don't support women's rights, which may be true by your definition, but I fully support the rights of women to take whichever role they want in the home, or in the world, that they want. Any woman can do anything as well as any man, and all opportunities should be available to them at the same pay rate and all that.

I accept and support people of all races and creeds, no matter the skin color or religion. I give money and food to homeless people I meet whenever I can, and I've volunteered at places like halfway houses to help out. I tell you this not as a form of boasting, but just to show that I feel deeply for the poor and downtrodden, and I feel like many people think of conservatives as wealthy and stuck up.

I understand. I used to see Democrats and liberals in the same sort of cartoony, caricature way as well. But we're not all Rush Limbaugh or Ann Coulter. I can't stand them, or Rick Santorum, or any such figures, and I know many other Republicans who can't as well. I research the issues and decide where I stand on them based on my knowledge and moral compass. I don't blindly follow the party line. I used to, but I've realized how incredibly stupid that is.

And that brings me to my main point. This is a debate forum. However, I feel like debate globally, but especially in America, has degenerated into something which it was never originally intended to be. Debate has come to the point where the idea isn't just to say that the other's case is wrong, but that they have no case to make at all. As long as that continues to be the case, I feel like nothing meaningful will ever be accomplished in this country, or in the world, and that people will simply continue to cling to party lines simply because they are party lines, rather than attempting to think for themselves.

I guess what I'm getting at is, liberal or conservative, we're all people. I don't see you as "the other". I don't see any of this as "us vs. them". I may disagree with some of your ideas, but I will always respect you as a person, so long as you aren't hurting other people. So disagree with me, debate with me, discuss with me, destroy my arguments. Just don't dismiss me, or anybody, for my political affiliation.

[Glados]

Beautifully put! I agree but could not have said all that so well.

I am a democrat but I agree with many republicans on certain issues. My conservative friends insist that I am a closet republican. I find it difficult to honestly discuss issues with many people because they take a hard stand on issues not based on reason or logic but by what they media says is the correct party stance. I am of the opinion that both sides go to extremes and the best solution to many issues would be a middle ground approach.

My democrat friends get angry with me because I am not for tighter gun laws. Where I live, most gun crimes are committed with illegal guns already. Keeping guns from responsible citizens does not inhibit the flow of illegal weapons.

My republican friends disagree with me because I don't support legislation that has a religious motivation. I believe in the right to freedom of religion but not the right to force beliefs on others who do not share your beliefs. I get the argument that it violates their freedom of religion if they have to tolerate my sinful choices. That is not freedom. That is control.

I have had many good, intelligent debates end in hurt feelings because someone takes my difference of opinion personally and brings anger and insults into the discussion. The world needs more people who can discuss issues intelligently and treat everyone with respect.

[jackfaire]

I am not anything. None of the party line labels apply to me I don't even track whose party lines are whose.

I take each individual law, social issue, or incident on it's own and apply my sense of right or wrong to it.

[Amanita]

I maintain that I'm hard to pigeonhole politically. On many social issues, I am very liberal- I'm pro choice, pro gay rights, and a firm believer in equality between races and genders. But when it comes to the rights of bearing arms and self defense, I part ways very quickly with most liberals- I support castle doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws, as well as the right of responsible citizens to own and bear arms (all arms, not just guns).
I also despise the "nanny state" mentality which some Liberals seem to be all for, believing that the government should only go so far in trying to protect us from ourselves. Seat belt laws, ok. Laws forbidding me to walk down the street and listen to my mp3 player at the same time? Hell no, that's rediculous! (that law was actually proposed in NYC!)

I too hate people like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter (Although I did agree with one piece Ann Coulter wrote about rebuilding the Twin Towers). I feel that the harsh rhetoric of these types does nothing but polarize and antagonize, it's shit-stirring in place of true debate and discourse. And I hate it when I hear people use "Liberal" as some sort of political swear word/insult. I feel that it's perhaps one of the worst things to happen to political discourse in recent history. (perhaps that and political campaign attack ads)

[Andara Bledin]

I imagine a lot of people who really think about it will gravitate towards more socially libertarian ideals: a high degree of liberty and a high degree of responsibility.

^-.-^

[HYHYBT]

I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of the OP. However... if you find that, in order to argue your case, you must lie (including lying by omission or misrepresentation) then you probably *don't* have a case and should just shut up

(For example, I'm particularly tired of hearing about Ocean Grove Camp.)

[Jaden]

I maintain that I'm hard to pigeonhole politically. On many social issues, I am very liberal- I'm pro choice, pro gay rights, and a firm believer in equality between races and genders. But when it comes to the rights of bearing arms and self defense, I part ways very quickly with most liberals- I support castle doctrine and Stand Your Ground laws, as well as the right of responsible citizens to own and bear arms (all arms, not just guns).

[...]

And I hate it when I hear people use "Liberal" as some sort of political swear word/insult.

Right, I think a lot of people, if they thought about it, would realize that they agree with both sides on at least some issues. It's just who you agree with more that would decide which party you would register with, but that label doesn't define you...and if it does define you, who cares? You can be a Democrat, or a Republican, or a Libertarian or Green party or whatever. I do think each party is legitimately trying to make America a better place, it's just they have different ways that they think is best to do it. Some Republican ideas seem legitimately crazy, as do some Democrat ones, but I try to at least understand where they're coming from.

I also hate it when liberal is used as an insult, and conservative for that matter. I know the stereotype is a fire-and-brimstone televangelist jackass railing against the "liberals and intellectuals", but I've worked with quite a few people who also just refuse to take anything conservative seriously. If we ever talked about politics, I'd usually get something like "Oh, you're a Republican?" and then some condescending remarks about that strewn throughout the conversation. If I had to make some very general categorization, I'd say a conservative hatred of a liberal manifest itself as loud, ornery, and in-yer-face, whereas a liberal hatred of conservative is more mocking and dismissive. Both annoy me, although I appreciate wit more than hot air, so I admit the conservative version annoys me more than the liberal one simply due to the approach.

I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of the OP. However... if you find that, in order to argue your case, you must lie (including lying by omission or misrepresentation) then you probably *don't* have a case and should just shut up

There are some cases which really do have no basis, I admit. A classic example is Westboro Baptist Church. Basically, if your idea is based in intolerance or hatred, then I don't think I need to take it seriously. Gay marriage is a bit trickier. I do try to understand where they're coming from, and honestly, I find it somewhat easy since I used to be the same way before I grew up and realized how terrible such an attitude was.

But really, the issue is too widespread to be dismissive - if you want to change the attitude towards homosexuality, you have to take it seriously instead of just saying they're being intolerant bigots. They are, but it goes deeper than that. I've actually managed to convince both my mother - a very smart lady who I respect a lot, as I mentioned in the "How dare you learn about other cultures?" thread in Religion (I think that's what it's called) - and one or two of my more open-minded friends who were formerly against gay marriage that they should support it. Of course, I've had even more conversations on the topic end with the person I'm talking to frustrating the hell out of me and nothing being gained from it, but hey, I'll take the victories where I can

[crashhelmet]

I'm a registered Democrat, as I believe in what the party is supposed to stand for. That is a party that is supposed to be "Pro-People" rather than "Pro Business." However, my viewpoints are more Centrist (I think they're calling it Moderate this year?).

The majority of my family are Conservative Republicans, surprisingly. We're Irish-Mexican, and Catholic. That's supposed to have Democrat etched on our foreheads, I thought. I think the conversion started with Reagan.

Sadly, my family members are pretty much politically blind. They parrot what the pundits says and whatever their party tells them to say. We argue more over me trying to open their eyes than anything else.

[fireheart17]

In regards to the abortion issue that you mentioned, I tend to split those against abortion into two camps: the pro-lifers and the anti-abortioners.

Pro-lifers tend to want to decrease the abortion rate through the use of contraception, sex education in schools and providing more options for those who do end up pregnant (adoption, fostering and so on). Most of the pro-lifers I've met do realise that pregnancy takes two: the mother and the foetus.

Anti-abortion nuts on the other hand seem to fall into the "just don't have sex" category. They'd rather see contraceptives banned and the folks who make them hung, drawn and quartered. They want to see abortion clinics bombed to the ground and those who work at the clinics dismembered. If you happen to fall pregnant, they don't give a stuff about you, even if you wind up gravely ill and the only option to save your life is to terminate the pregnancy. They'd rather see the mother die than the foetus die.

To sum up: pro-lifers want abstinence plus education. anti-abortion nuts want abstinence-only education.

Personally, as long as you're not in the category that treats women like livestock, I don't give a stuff otherwise.

[Jaden]

Personally, as long as you're not in the category that treats women like livestock, I don't give a stuff otherwise.

I fully support contraceptives. In fact, I think making contraceptives more easily available and providing sex education is the best way to combat abortion at the current time, along with revamping the adoption system. People are going to have sex whether contraceptives are available or not, so I don't see how contraceptives can do anything except decrease the abortion rate.

Quite frankly, I really don't understand the argument that Plan B and such things = abortion. The best explanation I've heard is that it presumes conception, but that's really stretching. If those are abortion, then so is male masturbation, and uhh, living. The human body kills way more sperm and eggs than it uses. In fact, by their logic, having sex also counts as abortion even if it leads to pregnancy, because you're killing thousands of sperm and only one survives. So, yeah, that argument doesn't make much sense to me, I admit

[fireheart17]

I fully support contraceptives. In fact, I think making contraceptives more easily available and providing sex education is the best way to combat abortion at the current time, along with revamping the adoption system. People are going to have sex whether contraceptives are available or not, so I don't see how contraceptives can do anything except decrease the abortion rate.

My views are sort of similar, except that I'm more or less pro-choice.

[SongsOfDragons]

Around the time of the last General Election here in the UK, I found and shared a site I found that took all mention of the party out and you went through a multiple-choice quiz about lots of different issues. You picked the statement you felt was closest to how you thought about that issue, and at the end it revealed a pie chart detailing which parties you supported. They used the main six - Tories, Lib Dems, Labour, UKIP, BNP and Greens. I came out with more BNP than I would have liked O.o and quite a mixture of others. It was very interesting and made me think of my intentions back then...

Now of course, I hope that site comes back for the next one. Though I hope they add more parties...right now all six of the above suck monkey biscuits to me. Bring on that Roman party I saw once...

[Duelist925]

Around the time of the last General Election here in the UK, I found and shared a site I found that took all mention of the party out and you went through a multiple-choice quiz about lots of different issues. You picked the statement you felt was closest to how you thought about that issue, and at the end it revealed a pie chart detailing which parties you supported. They used the main six - Tories, Lib Dems, Labour, UKIP, BNP and Greens. I came out with more BNP than I would have liked O.o and quite a mixture of others. It was very interesting and made me think of my intentions back then...

Now of course, I hope that site comes back for the next one. Though I hope they add more parties...right now all six of the above suck monkey biscuits to me. Bring on that Roman party I saw once...

Dear lord I hope something like that pops up for the us. That sounds intensely useful.

[Jaden]

Dear lord I hope something like that pops up for the us. That sounds intensely useful.

There are a lot of political affiliation tests scattered around the internet that basically do that. They usually have it separated into an X and Y axis, with one of them being fiscal and the other being social. I actually had to take one of those for a government class I took a couple of years ago. I don't like taking tests like that because I tend to outsmart myself, overthink everything, and agonize over every question and then second guess it, so it ends up not being very useful for me, but you might find them more enlightening if you wanted to seek them out.

[crashhelmet]

There is a test that you can take here that somewhat classifies it found here.

This particular test puts me at about half-way down the left and slightly libertarian.



Other tests I've taken like this have put me more on the Authoritarian side of the axis.


Political Spectrum Quiz

I get the feeling it all comes down to the questions asked. I could probably take one that makes me look more conservative, if they asked the right questions.

Take it for what it's worth.