So, what's up with the Democrats?

[Jaden]

I *know* there are Republicans on Fratching; strange they don't seem to be adding much to this thread.

I'm a Republican, but I'm too non-confrontational to start flinging shit at another party I don't like us vs. them mentality anyways. I try to see the good and the bad about both parties.

[HYHYBT]

Fair enough! I prefer to do the same... but it gets hard when you go so long between examples

I was about to add that one negative applicable to this thread is that only a Democrat would ban large-size drinks... but then I double-checked and, turns out, Bloomberg is a Republican. Still, in general it's more the sort of obnoxious interference typical of the Democratic side. (The Republican side, of course, has its own typical obnoxious interferences.)

[Nekojin]

I was about to add that one negative applicable to this thread is that only a Democrat would ban large-size drinks... but then I double-checked and, turns out, Bloomberg is a Republican. Still, in general it's more the sort of obnoxious interference typical of the Democratic side. (The Republican side, of course, has its own typical obnoxious interferences.)

You're right that Political Correctness has traditionally been a Democratic trait, but it's more of an Authoritarian trait than either Liberal or Conservative; as a result, in recent years you'll see it among Republicans (Palin, Bachmann) just as much as Democrats.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

My family is all rural conservatives. They are not religious, and are all highly educated. My father was an engineer, my Mother has a Master’s degree in history, my brother has a Master’s in biology, my sister is a Vet. They absolutely despise urban culture, won’t step foot in a large city, and don’t understand urban people’s values at all. In most of their interactions with urban, liberal people, they are treated like morons because they are assumed to be uneducated hillbillies. Democratic politicians drive them nuts. Here are a couple of problems they have with Democrats:
In rural/small town culture, blunt plain-spokenness is a big virtue. This is a common platitude: Say what you mean, or mean what you say. To them, liberal politicians never speak plainly, and twist words. A famous example of this is when Bill Clinton was under fire for lying about Monica Lewinsky; he said “it depends on what the meaning of the word is is.” My family never despised Clinton, and knew he was a very bright man, but this incident made him extremely distrustful in their eyes. Democrats often dance around subjects carefully because their constituencies are so multicultural, they don’t want to offend anyone. Rural people don’t understand this. Taking offense over something spoken innocently is the offended person’s problem, because bluntness and toughness are important virtues. People who get offended by someone else’s statements are seen as weak.

Most environmentalists are Democrats. Rural people HATE HATE HATE urban environmentalists. This is because environmental laws affect rural people’s livelihoods and pastimes more than anybody else, and when they complain or protest, urban environmentalists sneer at them and treat them condescendingly. Hunting is an essential and traditional part of rural culture, and giving a boy his first hunting rifle (usually about the age of 10) is seen as an important rite of passage. There is an intense fear that liberals are actively trying to destroy their culture because they want to outlaw hunting, put limits on guns, and shut down industries rural families depend upon for their livelihoods, like mining or logging. Rural people don’t understand why urban liberals are so upset at, for example, China, for systematically destroying Tibetan culture, while at the same time pursuing policies that erode their culture. They see this as extremely hypocritical.

They don’t understand the Democrats insistence on a large social safety net. In their culture, independence is expected of everyone. It is extremely shameful to get a government handout---if your family is hungry, go out and kill or gather some food in the wilderness. If you have no money, go find work. It doesn’t matter what it is or how little it pays, as long as it’s honest work, you will be respected. There are few people looked down on by them more than able-bodied adults who don’t or won’t work. A lack of jobs in the area is no excuse, many rural men travel extremely long distances to find work and spend all week away from their families. People who can’t work because of disability or mental illness are supposed to be cared for by their families, not the government. Family members care for their disabled relatives because it’s considered shameful not to do so. They really do not comprehend that in urban areas they are many people whose families can’t or won’t care for them, and that these people would be on the street if not for the government programs championed by the Democrats.

My family is becoming increasingly aggravated with Republicans as well, because the party is being taken over by religious fundamentalists. They still swing conservative, but they tend to vote for moderates more than anything else. Like many other Americans, they see the entire political system as broken and corrupt.

[HYHYBT]

How do you go about convincing people of the truth, then: that (most, at least) DON'T want to outlaw hunting, but only to keep it down to levels that sustain the population (even if that does wind up meaning a few species must be declared endangered and taken off the list of those you may hunt). That (again, most) DON'T want to stop logging and mining, but only want to limit it to amounts and types that do as little damage as possible, etc.?

[ThePhoneGoddess]

HYHYBT, my family never encounters people like that. They live in Western Montana, about an hour from Missoula. The University of Montana, in Missoula, is known as 'The Berkeley of the Rockies'. UM, and the University of Idaho in Moscow, have large numbers of liberal, environmentally-minded kids who arrive from big cities every year to major in things like Ecology, Wildlife Resources, and Conservation Biology. These kids are incredibly condescending to the locals. Many of them are Greenpeace activists or PETA members, and they often engage in protests, letter writing to the local papers, and other behavior where they make very clear that the stupid, inbred locals should not be allowed to hunt as it only perpetuates their 'culture of death', and other such nonsense.

Logging and mining operations tend to be shut down by big environmental groups who work through the courts. When an operation is shut down because of a legal ruling, it is often absolutely devastating to the local communities, who have no other sources of income. But nobody makes any provisions to help these communities, they are simply left to fend for themselves while the environmental group and the logging/mining company battle it out in court.

Recently, the President of the California Fish and Game Commission came under fire because he went hunting in Idaho and killed a mountain lion. He went up to a ranch in Idaho to hunt pheasants, and while there, the owner asked him to help thin the mountain lion population because the lions were eating too many deer. What this means is that he paid the fee to kill birds, not the fee for big animals. However, he was asked to do this as a favor. He sent a picture of his kill to a hunting magazine, and environmentalists started screaming for his resignation, saying that because he was a hunter, he was not fit to be in charge of the Fish and Game Commission, because their job was to protect fish and game from hunters. My family found this absolutely mind-boggling. This is the attitude they encounter all the time.

As far as convincing them most liberals are not like that: It's like dealing with religious people. We all know that many religious people are good people, who try to live moral lives and don't impose on others, etc etc, but the ones who end up in the news all the time, the ones who come to your door trying to convert you, the ones who pass out leaflets on street corners, are the batsh*t crazy ones who want to outlaw contraception and round up gay people, and they make sane churchgoers look bad. Rural people don't encounter moderate liberals, they only encounter the 'enviro-terrorists' who go up into their territory and try to force these things into law. And to them, Democrats are the environmentalist party.

[Gravekeeper]

Sounds more like they're dealing with hipster college douchebags with pet causes, not liberals. -.-

[protege]

Most environmentalists are Democrats. Rural people HATE HATE HATE urban environmentalists. This is because environmental laws affect rural people’s livelihoods and pastimes more than anybody else, and when they complain or protest, urban environmentalists sneer at them and treat them condescendingly. Hunting is an essential and traditional part of rural culture, and giving a boy his first hunting rifle (usually about the age of 10) is seen as an important rite of passage. There is an intense fear that liberals are actively trying to destroy their culture because they want to outlaw hunting, put limits on guns, and shut down industries rural families depend upon for their livelihoods, like mining or logging. Rural people don’t understand why urban liberals are so upset at, for example, China, for systematically destroying Tibetan culture, while at the same time pursuing policies that erode their culture. They see this as extremely hypocritical.

That's exactly it. My mother's family lived in rural SW PA, not far from the PA/WV border. A similar culture exists down there. Quite a few people hunt--either on their own property or on the state game lands. Opening day of deer season is seen as another holiday--county offices are closed, and most private industries are down to skeleton crews. It's been that way for 200 years.

For the past 30 years or so, we'd have to deal with protestors. They'd either harass hunters (seriously? They're *armed* you aren't!) by chasing off potential targets, or try to block access to the game lands. They'd actually go so far as to block roads--either with cables strung across, or makeshift barriers.

Hunting and fishing weren't the only "evil" activities that went on down there. Did I mention that the counties south of me are heavily dependent on coal mining? For most of the past 200 years, most of the mines were "room and pillar" type mines--the companies would sink shafts down, and then would dig out large "rooms" while leaving pillars behind. This method used fewer supports to hold the top of the mining tunnels up. Then, "longwalling" started. That's when all of the coal is removed from the mine--there's a machine with hydraulic jacks that holds up the mine ceiling; the coal is removed as the machine goes forward, and then the coal is removed via conveyors. In this method, there are much fewer supports put in.

Because longwalling can (and does) cause mine subsidence, it's been in the news quite a bit. Some of it is because families have lost their sources of water (either wells, springs, or streams), or because their homes have been damaged. Never mind that the mining companies are on the hook--they've been pretty good about repairing damage that they've done...the protestors want *all* mining stopped immediately.

Why? They're more concerned about the supposed "long-term" damage. I read the reports, I *lived* there. I spent *lots* of time in the supposedly "damaged" region. After seeing things first hand, I could only come up with one conclusion. That is, the environmentalists...had no idea what the fuck they were talking about. Plus, they had no "vested interest" in the area.

They were widely seen as intruders. That is, they were *not* from the area. Other than saving the environment, they had no ties to the area. They didn't have to live there if and when the mines closed. Nor did they have to deal with the aftermath of families struggling. Once their work was done, they disappeared back to Starbucks and their college campuses. That's why, even now, if you mention that you belong to certain environmental clubs...you're usually told to "get the fuck out."

They don’t understand the Democrats insistence on a large social safety net. In their culture, independence is expected of everyone. It is extremely shameful to get a government handout---if your family is hungry, go out and kill or gather some food in the wilderness. If you have no money, go find work. It doesn’t matter what it is or how little it pays, as long as it’s honest work, you will be respected. There are few people looked down on by them more than able-bodied adults who don’t or won’t work. A lack of jobs in the area is no excuse, many rural men travel extremely long distances to find work and spend all week away from their families. People who can’t work because of disability or mental illness are supposed to be cared for by their families, not the government. Family members care for their disabled relatives because it’s considered shameful not to do so. They really do not comprehend that in urban areas they are many people whose families can’t or won’t care for them, and that these people would be on the street if not for the government programs championed by the Democrats.

Again, agreed. I guess it's because I grew up in the 1970s and '80s, when much of SW PA's heavy industry was winding down. I was always told that you shouldn't depend on anyone--not the charities, not government, etc. and that's probably why I have a huge problem with many of the social programs put in place by the Democrats. They have huge "safety nets" in place. These programs are designed to help people get back on their feet. Yet, we have *generations* of people living on them. These people could easily work at McDonald's (not trying to bash the employees there, OK?) or similar jobs. Yet, they don't. It's easier to simply head to the courthouse, and get a check every month.

I don't know about other areas, but here...we've had the Democrats in charge since the 1930s. Their idea of "fixing" problems, is to throw more money at them. Apparently, if they throw money at the problem, it will go away by itself. Like the welfare issue I mentioned earlier. Instead of trying to get people *off* those programs...the Democrats want to dump more money into it, and then jack up taxes to pay for it. That's not a bash against the *party,* but rather the idiots that get into office and stay there.

That brings up another problem--the dwindling tax base. Why is it that Pittsburgh (and Allegheny County) are shrinking, but some surrounding counties are growing? Simply put, people are moving outside the city limits to get away from the taxes, traffic, and uncontrollable spending. Oh, and I can't forget about the politicians either. The city, because of the union legacy, tends to vote Democrat...yet the 'burbs tend to go either way depending on issues.

[AdminAssistant]

That brings up another problem--the dwindling tax base. Why is it that Pittsburgh (and Allegheny County) are shrinking, but some surrounding counties are growing?

Urban sprawl is a problem common to all large cities, and it almost always boils down to race. Sales and property taxes are significantly higher in Johnson County, KS (primarily white suburbs) than in Jackson County, MO (heart of KC). That hasn't stopped the flood of whites fleeing the 'dangerous' city for the safe beige-ness of Olathe and the like. (Seriously, they passed a code that all businesses have to have beige/white exteriors. It's rather frightening.)

I'm not saying there aren't other factors. But what you are describing is classic white flight. Nothing new or particularly special about it.


Back to the topic: I grew up in the rural South, and there used to be an attitude of "Be independent, but if you need help, the community will help you get back on your feet." That still exists to a certain extent, especially when it comes to kids, illnesses, natural disasters, and so on. It's the spirit that allows things like community Volunteer Fire Departments to exist. But there also the belief that you should always be working to better yourself and your situation, and that you should live within your means. But...I don't know. I've moved back (well, nearby) and it seems a lot different than when I was a kid.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

Sounds more like they're dealing with hipster college douchebags with pet causes, not liberals. -.-

No no, these kids are not hipsters at all. You know the people who are absolutely hardcore about the environment, the ones who think cars are so evil they won't even get in one? Who go out on ships to follow and bomb fishermen on the open sea? The ones who spike trees with nails in order to injure loggers who try to cut them down? Well many of those kids come up to UM or U of I to go to college because of the special degrees they offer. It's like a Mecca for them. These are people who are so hardcore about veganism they evangelize it, telling people that eating meat or dairy is actually immoral. They aren't hipsters at all, they're way too hardcore for hipsters; they don't have time to be cool or ironic, they're too busy trying to make the wilderness off-limits to the rest of us.

[Andara Bledin]

These are people who are so hardcore about veganism they evangelize it, telling people that eating meat or dairy is actually immoral.

They're zealots.

Zealots are always in a class by themselves, and we wish they'd take that class far away from everybody else. >_<

^-.-^

[Silverharp]

the problem that we're looking at is that the most vocal of both parties are the 5% fringe zealots.
Most Americans really ARE closer to moderate and willing to work things out.
Hell, one buddy of mine, when things get too heted about religion (I'm pagan and he's most definitely Christain) or politics(I lean more to the left, him to the right) we just...back off.
To me, that's what it's SUPPOSED to be about in this country.
That, and this sums it up perfectly I agree 100% with these sentiments.