NJ referendum on raising minimum wage. Opinions?

[Hyena Dandy]

This would of had a much better chance of passing before fast food workers made a farce out of the wage debate (I'm sorry, but I refuse to even consider paying a job that doesn't even require a high school diploma and no additional more than what can be made by someone who has gotten vocational training or even a recent college grad).

That's really your problem, then.

If a job needs doing, like fast food work does, then it needs to pay enough to keep people doing it. The fast food workers are trying to live on what they're being paid, but they can't. The idea that wanting to be paid enough to support yourself is "Making a mockery of the debate" is disgusting.

[s_stabeler]

That is if we met the demands of the very vocal groups demanding a $15 an hour minimum wage. Entry level in my field is between $13 and $15 an hour (at this time, had our parents generation not wrapped the broom handle with sand paper before sodomizing our chances at prosperity that would be more like $20, but they did sodomize our future, so it is what it is), so I would have gone to college for four years to get minimum wage if these groups had their way. As I've said elsewhere, apparently I've gone about this all wrong, I actually busted my ass to improve myself when all I had to do was be lazy, drop out of high school, get a minimum wage fast food job, and wait for a politician to cave in to my unrealistic demands in an attempt to buy my vote.
I support a minimum wage increase, but only is as much as it isn't going to be used as ammunition by the radical groups that think that you better yourself by becoming thugs than by hard work.

If you are in a job worth more than minimum wage, and the employer is paying you minimum wage, then that sounds like the fault is with your employer not paying you what you are worth. The fault is NOT with demands that people are paid a wage that does not require them to be on government benefits to survive.

On the other hand, IF the demand for an increase is for more than required not to need government benefits, then I agree with you.

[Andara Bledin]

This would of had a much better chance of passing before fast food workers made a farce out of the wage debate (I'm sorry, but I refuse to even consider paying a job that doesn't even require a high school diploma and no additional more than what can be made by someone who has gotten vocational training or even a recent college grad).

The fact that so many people think it's OK to pay people less than a livable wage is utterly appalling.

It doesn't matter how menial and unskilled the labor is. If the job needs doing at all, it needs to have the people doing it be paid a livable wage.

To do anything else is to prop up corporations on the back of the state. Why do so many people allow corporations to externalize their costs onto the government, and thus, society as a whole?

To support sub-poverty payment levels, is to require all of the people working those jobs to require government subsidization.

It just amazes me how many people are so ignorant of basic economics that they can't see this very simple result.

edit to add:

And to everybody of the "fuck you, I got mine" or "I got screwed, so you should have to get screwed, too" people: YOU are the problem. And if you would stop being so utterly selfish, you'd realize that the solution would benefit you just as much as it would those that are being crushed at the bottom.

[smileyeagle1021]

and as for college grads then earning minimum wage- um, why would college grads be earning only $1 above the minimum wage?

That is if we met the demands of the very vocal groups demanding a $15 an hour minimum wage. Entry level in my field is between $13 and $15 an hour (at this time, had our parents generation not wrapped the broom handle with sand paper before sodomizing our chances at prosperity that would be more like $20, but they did sodomize our future, so it is what it is), so I would have gone to college for four years to get minimum wage if these groups had their way. As I've said elsewhere, apparently I've gone about this all wrong, I actually busted my ass to improve myself when all I had to do was be lazy, drop out of high school, get a minimum wage fast food job, and wait for a politician to cave in to my unrealistic demands in an attempt to buy my vote.
I support a minimum wage increase, but only is as much as it isn't going to be used as ammunition by the radical groups that think that you better yourself by becoming thugs than by hard work.

[s_stabeler]

there's still the fact that someone working a full-time week at minimum wage cannot live on their wages without assistance from the government.

and as for college grads then earning minimum wage- um, why would college grads be earning only $1 above the minimum wage?

[smileyeagle1021]

The stupidest part about the whole argument in regards to the US though is that the minimum wage workforce is actually very small. Representing only 4.7% of the entire US workforce in 2012. Yet we're suppose to believe giving 4.7% of the workforce an extra dollar will bring about the apocalypse.

It actually is bigger than that... if we gave an extra dollar an hour, how many people who were barely above minimum wage will now be minimum wage? Hell, if we give into the fast food workers' demands a lot of recent college graduates would be getting a bump in pay to be brought up to minimum wage. The New Jersey referendum is at least requesting a reasonable amount of money, but I don't blame the people who say "no, we give you this and next you'll demand $10, then you'll demand $15, and hell, because you feel special, let's give you $20." This would of had a much better chance of passing before fast food workers made a farce out of the wage debate (I'm sorry, but I refuse to even consider paying a job that doesn't even require a high school diploma and no additional more than what can be made by someone who has gotten vocational training or even a recent college grad).

[lordlundar]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

Early to mid 80's. Regan's deconstruction of the unions and deregulation allowed companies to say "nope! we don't have to pay you more than he absolutely have to for the good of the country!" A trend the GOP wants to perpetuate ad infinitium.

[Andara Bledin]

I'm not saying that is ok. I'm saying that if you raise the minimum wage to double the cost of an apartment per month, the costs of apartments per month will go up in response till you're right back where you started.

Except that it doesn't work that way. We have more than enough real world examples of the world not working like the scaremongers would have us believe.

Yes, prices will go up a bit to reflect the fact that there is more money being spent, but the new equilibrium will end up being better for everybody involved, including business owners and renters.

A lot of people refer to the US as the richest 3rd world nation in the world, and if the people hoarding the money are allowed to continue as they are, this will become a reality.

[mikoyan29]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

When low skilled factory jobs (and other low skilled jobs) dried up. Hell, even factory jobs pay roughly minimum wage these days.

But what do you expect when most of the economic gains of the past 20 years have gone to the top of the chain.

[Kheldarson]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

When companies realized that it was cheaper to hire more part-time workers and string them along until they quit and were replaced at the same minimum wage than to pay for full-time work with raises, benefits, and the works?

[Gravekeeper]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

Minimum wage was originally created to stop stuff like sweatshop labour. Then historically evolved into being tied to a standard of living. It was never designed to be aimed at teenagers or anything. Half of minimum wage workers in the US are in the 20-24 bracket. 21% are teenagers and the remaining are older adults. Increasing minimum wage actually causes a small decline in the % of teenage workforce, oddly enough.

Some areas have specific laws that govern this situation, mandating different ( ie lower ) minimum wages for teenagers as they are not supporting themselves solely. But ultimately the idea around this is a "living" wage. AKA no full grown adult working full time at a real job should be starving or homeless despite working a full time job.

The stupidest part about the whole argument in regards to the US though is that the minimum wage workforce is actually very small. Representing only 4.7% of the entire US workforce in 2012. Yet we're suppose to believe giving 4.7% of the workforce an extra dollar will bring about the apocalypse.

[Greenday]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

[Panacea]

Frankly, having SEEN the results after 15 years of a minimum wage hike, first to $6.50, then $7.50, then $8.50, now almost $10, I say that minimum wage hikes are not the answer. At least, not alone. Maybe combined with other measures, but alone they do nothing except cause inflation.

Real wages have actually been stagnating for 20 years and more. During that time, however, wealth has been increasingly concentrated in the hands of the wealthy. The top 1% got 95% of the gains in the recovery since the 2008 meltdown.

The causes of inflation are complex. Certainly when inflation rises, currency buys less. That's actually good for debtors, because over time their debts are worth less.

However, the real cause of inflation comes when the supply of money is greater than the rate of economic growth. That's why people are concerned about quantitative easing that the Fed has been doing: they're artificially creating money to support the economy, giving it an infusion of cash. That will result in higher inflation at some point. That's actually a greater risk to the economy than raising wages.

I'm not saying that is ok. I'm saying that if you raise the minimum wage to double the cost of an apartment per month, the costs of apartments per month will go up in response till you're right back where you started. Keep raising the minimum, and prices keep going up in response, which leads to massive inflation, wiping out the value of people's savings and investments.

That's a fallacy. Prices don't shoot up that high that fast when the minimum wage is raised. The law of supply and demand still applies. We've raised prices many times in our history, and massive inflation has never happened.

We did get stagflation when Nixon tried to institute price FIXING, which is a horse of a different color.

The real value of our wages is actually declining. Prices are historically low, as is inflation. If, in unlikely even, prices were to rise in response to wages, raising inflation, it wouldn't happen over night. If it did happen, the Fed would take steps to reduce inflation by raising interest rates.

We need to increase the minimum wage. We have a skewed economy when the government subsidizes private industry by paying for public assistance for the employes of companies that won't pay a living wage.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm saying that if you raise the minimum wage to double the cost of an apartment per month, the costs of apartments per month will go up in response till you're right back where you started. Keep raising the minimum, and prices keep going up in response, which leads to massive inflation, wiping out the value of people's savings and investments.

Windmills do not work that way. -.-

[Gravekeeper]

The problem is, that the $64 a day could very well be the "make or break" point of a small business.

If that's the make or break point though, that business is already in dire straights and its failure is just a matter of time anyhow. A business making $63 a day is already up shit creek and is one unexpected expense away from demise to begin with.

The US has not only one of the lowest minimum wage medians of all of the first world countries, but it also has historically low minimum wages based on its own economic history. The doom and gloom scenario of raising minimum wage that the GOP pushes is bullshit. Because its never happened before every other time the minimum wage was raised in areas of the US.

Companies respond to a raise in labour costs by seeking methods to reduce overhead costs, increase efficiency and increase worker productivity. An increase in productivity that goes hand in hand with increased employee wages. When the minimum federal wage was increased in Alabama and Georgia, only 8% of businesses surveyed considered cutting jobs as a solution to make up the labour costs. Conversely the most important thing the businesses in question listed to offset the cost was increasing performance standards. ( Per a 2011 study from Georgia State University ).

Additionally, the top 10 States with the highest minimum wages have FASTER small business and retail business growth. They also hired more workers and expanded their businesses more. Whereas in the other 40, small business growth was actually a net negative. ( Per the Fiscal Policy Institute ).

Finally, a profit boom for practically everyone involved always follows an increase in minimal wage. The Chicago Federal Reserve Bank conducted a study in 2011 on the effect of a minimum wage hike on spending habits of households. An increase in $1 in minimum wage causes a household to spend twice as much money on large durable purchases ( New appliances, electronics, furniture, home improvement, cars, etc ) in the next quarter. Additionally, spending on goods and services increases for two quarters BEFORE a minimum wage hike goes into effect.

So that whole argument is bunk and you're surrounded by historical evidence to the contrary. Yes, some small businesses might fail. But they are businesses that were not going to survive long term anyway.

That's called capitalism.