NJ referendum on raising minimum wage. Opinions?

[Hyena Dandy]

The problem is the poverty line in the US is calculated ridiculously. It's based only on the price of staple foods, and doesn't take into account housing, electricity, etc.

[Gravekeeper]

How would it be if, rather than trying to carch up all af once, it were done gradually (but on a set schedule, passed as law once and then left alone)? Pick a target, $15 or $17 or whatever, which will be raised every year to match the previous year's inflation rate. Raise each minimum wage (7.25/2.15) by $1 each year until it catches the moving target, which it would then stick to.

That's basically what Obama is proposing. Raise it to $9 initially to get people above the poverty line then tie it to the rate of inflation so that it goes up annually to keep up.

[smileyeagle1021]

How would it be if, rather than trying to carch up all af once, it were done gradually (but on a set schedule, passed as law once and then left alone)? Pick a target, $15 or $17 or whatever, which will be raised every year to match the previous year's inflation rate. Raise each minimum wage (7.25/2.15) by $1 each year until it catches the moving target, which it would then stick to.

It's not as much relief in the short term, but it's probably better overall than correcting fifty years of lag in at once by letting everything adjust over time... including the wages of people like Smiley.

This is exactly what I have been advocating (other than fixing our broken education system)... apparently that makes me heartless and uncaring.
Okay, so I am uncaring. I know that the world owes me nothing, so it doesn't bother me that it doesn't owe anyone else anything. The best thing I ever did was looking in the mirror and repeating "the world owes you nothing" until I believed it, because that's when I became dedicated to taking personal responsibility for myself and improving my situation rather than waiting for it to improve on its own. And you know what, amazingly enough when I focused on improving my situation, it improved... I know, it's amazing. Yes, I got help in doing it, I accepted financial aid for college, I got mentoring from my seniors, I even accepted advice from complete strangers. I know, we could go into the myth of how no one is self made, if nothing else they used a government funded road to get to their first interview, but I will take the title self made in that I have gone beyond asking for help and helping myself as well.

[HYHYBT]

How would it be if, rather than trying to carch up all af once, it were done gradually (but on a set schedule, passed as law once and then left alone)? Pick a target, $15 or $17 or whatever, which will be raised every year to match the previous year's inflation rate. Raise each minimum wage (7.25/2.15) by $1 each year until it catches the moving target, which it would then stick to.

It's not as much relief in the short term, but it's probably better overall than correcting fifty years of lag in at once by letting everything adjust over time... including the wages of people like Smiley.

[Gravekeeper]

That may contribute to it, but let's face it, that is probably a much smaller portion than the fact that we rank 25th in math ability and 20th in science.

and do you know what one of the most detrimental effects there are on early education?

Poverty.

Yes education reform like what I'm proposing is radical, but it actually fixes the problem that we have an uneducated population that simply isn't coming up with new value to add.

The US actually has one of the highest spending per student per capita in the world yet some of the worst results. Also, as has already been pointed out: The jobs don't exist. There are people working at McDonalds who have two degrees. Their education is not the problem.

Our parent's generation invented the technology to take us to the moon, we invented hashtags, and at the rate we're going our children will finally perfect the wheel by turning it into an oval.

Actually that technology was invented by two Germans. Both of whom were former Nazis that came to the US after the war. But go on ;p

If we increase minimum wage without increasing the value of the populace, all that will happen is what you described will speed up, companies will continue to abandon the United States for countries that not only do it cheaper, but do it better. It may be too late to fix the cheaper part, it may not be desirable to fix the cheaper part, but we can still fix the doing it better part.

You know, I've been giving you numbers, data, history, etc, and you've completely ignored all of it to stick to your own false anecdotes despite the fact they're completely at odds with reality. Minimum wage jobs are primarily service and retail sector, they cannot be outsourced.

The populace is ALREADY undervalued. So what part of this are you failing to grasp? Again, minimum wage in 1960, adjusted for today's dollars, was $10/hour. You get paid LESS for doing MORE work right now.

[Hyena Dandy]

It's fine to say "I worked this hard, I should be rewarded." But when your reward is 'Enough to have food and shelter' then you're not saying you should be rewarded, you're saying other should be punished.

[Andara Bledin]

Maybe if our college educated weren't forced to accept jobs that won't even support them so that the people at the top can rape the economy for their own enrichment, people would be more interested in learning.

But when the college educated are forced to compete for the lowest jobs on the market with people who didn't even finish high school, what's the point?

Plus, the idea that it's OK to pay anyone too little for them to afford food and shelter is still abominable. It's the product of a sick mind.

[smileyeagle1021]

You have that completely ass backwards. America is suffering in terms of innovation because other countries can do it cheaper and the 5% at the top want as much $ as possible. Additionally, America's "suck out every last god damn dollar" approach to resources and technology means it sticks with failing or unproductive industries far longer than it should. Then turns to the government to subsidize and prop up those failing industries.

That may contribute to it, but let's face it, that is probably a much smaller portion than the fact that we rank 25th in math ability and 20th in science. About the only things we rank best in is obesity rates, incarceration rates, and belief in angels. Yes education reform like what I'm proposing is radical, but it actually fixes the problem that we have an uneducated population that simply isn't coming up with new value to add. Our parent's generation invented the technology to take us to the moon, we invented hashtags, and at the rate we're going our children will finally perfect the wheel by turning it into an oval. If we increase minimum wage without increasing the value of the populace, all that will happen is what you described will speed up, companies will continue to abandon the United States for countries that not only do it cheaper, but do it better. It may be too late to fix the cheaper part, it may not be desirable to fix the cheaper part, but we can still fix the doing it better part.

[Kheldarson]

And how long should I expect to be worse off than a high school drop out (if they are making as much as me, they will be doing so without the burden of a student debt to go along with it) while I wait for things to adjust?

As long as it takes for you to find a job that pays you what you're worth because they're a decent company?

And hell, I've got high school dropouts who can walk into the store I work at and pay, in cash, for our high end gear. Which would take me at least a couple of months of saving up to do. So college grads can already be worse off than high school drop outs. Choose a different complaint.

You will find very few college graduates who agree with the $15 an hour proposal that some labor groups are demanding, because frankly, most of them would agree with me that it is bullshit to punish those who have invested in themselves by raising those who haven't above them.

Huh. You mean like me, my husband, my best friend, his best friend, most of our friends in the area...? We're all college grads and all working minimum wage retail jobs because that's all that's available. There aren't a lot of jobs in our state and the good ones, i.e. not minimum wage and not service industry, either are construction/mining or want you to come in with experience. Which I can't get because I can't get a job in that type of work. So I can't get hired to do that type of work.

So why can't I be paid a living wage in the meantime in order to support my family? Just to salve some idea that I'm better than a high school drop out because I might someday fall into a job that actually requires my degree?

Talk about your elitist bullshit.

And on a side note, you're right, college isn't just about making more money... there is a lot of intrinsic value to learning, but learning for learning sake can be done for free online, at community libraries, hell, just by talking to people. Almost anyone who says that they are going to college without expecting a return on their investment is either naive (eg hasn't seen their first bill yet and will gain a motive to get a return on investment or drop out) or lying.

Or is an academic? Dude, I want to go back to school and get my master's and possibly my doctorate in history. Specifically Catholic Church history as a focus. I have no illusions that the "return to my investment" following such a path would be very, very small. But I see a value in pursuing such a course for my own interest. Might I get lucky and get a good college position with it? Maybe. Or maybe some published works? Maybe. But it's a goal of mine in its own right, not for what it might do for me someday.

[Andara Bledin]

Your minimum wage is lower than Greece. Greece. A country whose economy is a punchline. Hell, your minimum wage is only 30 cents higher than Slovenia.

We're the richest 3rd world country on the planet, and it's people in the middle so afraid that someone at the bottom might get something they "don't deserve" (as if being able to survive was something to be earned), that they'd rather let themselves be worse off than raise the entire floor.

Minimum wage increases may be a great concept, and in the short run they may be necessary, but they merely mask a much greater problem that our country has.

This is bullshit. Raising minimum wage to a point where people working full time on minimum wage can survive is a full win proposition. It returns the cost of paying worker's what they're worth (and anyone who says a person's labor isn't worth a livable wage is a sociopath) to the companies, where it belongs and it reduces the need for so much of our social services requirements, that we are all paying for.

So, more money to take home, more money to actually live off of, less stress about trying to just survive, more productivity for everybody, and a healthier society all around. That anyone could claim that this is a bad thing is baffling.

[Gravekeeper]

And thus is the problem that terrifies those of us in the middle... we know damned well the CEO won't take a pay cut to make up for increases in minimum wage... they'll do it by shafting those of us who have worked our way above minimum wage.

Seriously, have you read anything I've said so far? Companies will absorb an increase in labour cost by increasing efficiency or productivity long before they even consider doing anything to their employees.

I'll probably always be a firm believer in the idea that the way to solve poverty in the United States is education and training reform.

Minimum wage jobs will not cease existing due to education reform. That work will always have to be done and there is no excuse that those working it should not be paid enough to stay above the poverty line. Which is the exact design of Obama's wage increase. Increasing it to $9 brings a family earning minimum wage above the poverty line in yearly income.

But let's face it, I've worked minimum wage jobs, and for what I was expected to do then, versus what I'm expected to do now, I'd say that I was fairly compensated.

The entire economic history of your country disagrees with you as does the rest of the first world. You made $3.30/hour less than someone working the same job in 1968.

If we were though to make education and training freely available to everyone, eventually minimum wage would become a non issue because companies would have to compete with a free chance at becoming a highly paid plumber or engineer with no more investment than hard work and time, if they wanted to get people to settle for being a cashier or even to attract the people who really love being a cashier (or whatever minimum wage level job it is we want to talk about) that will truly do it to the best of their ability and have a passion for it.

And you're accusing the protesters of wanting an insane pipe dream? Education reform of that level will never happen in the US due to states rights. Even if it was implemented, it would take several generations to take effect. Compared to the other solution. raising minimum wage to a sane level, which can be implemented in a matter of months with an immediate positive effect on everyone involved.

These jobs will always exist as will the people who work them.

And the best parts about that organic shift in the work force is that 1) the CEOs and elites won't be able to use it as an excuse to shaft everyone in the middle and 2) with education and training being so freely available we might start seeing new innovations actually coming from the U.S. again, rather than having to import them from Japan, Korea, and China.

You have that completely ass backwards. America is suffering in terms of innovation because other countries can do it cheaper and the 5% at the top want as much $ as possible. Additionally, America's "suck out every last god damn dollar" approach to resources and technology means it sticks with failing or unproductive industries far longer than it should. Then turns to the government to subsidize and prop up those failing industries.

It also consumes far far in excess of what it could ever hope to produce from a manufacturing perspective. You want a billion iPhones, but you don't want the slave conditions required to produce them. So let China do it, they don't give a rats ass about human rights.

The glitch is in production. You can innovate all you want but unless you're willing to pay fairly to have it manufactured in the US and, hell, even if you are, chances are the manufacturing is going overseas. It costs too much money to operate in the US with its assholish economic conditions.

Conditions which were, of course, created by the same money grubbing assholes that are moving production overseas to begin with.

[smileyeagle1021]

What interests me here are the protests against the differentials of the low wage earners getting more, but nothing about the extreme incomes of the people at the top of the same organisations.

And thus is the problem that terrifies those of us in the middle... we know damned well the CEO won't take a pay cut to make up for increases in minimum wage... they'll do it by shafting those of us who have worked our way above minimum wage.
I'll probably always be a firm believer in the idea that the way to solve poverty in the United States is education and training reform. I do not begrudge the high school drop out who later (or even dropped out specifically so they could) decides to get training in a vocation, they have gone above the minimum and should be compensated for it. But let's face it, I've worked minimum wage jobs, and for what I was expected to do then, versus what I'm expected to do now, I'd say that I was fairly compensated. If we were though to make education and training freely available to everyone, eventually minimum wage would become a non issue because companies would have to compete with a free chance at becoming a highly paid plumber or engineer with no more investment than hard work and time, if they wanted to get people to settle for being a cashier or even to attract the people who really love being a cashier (or whatever minimum wage level job it is we want to talk about) that will truly do it to the best of their ability and have a passion for it. Then let the people who aren't willing to either take a free education for a skilled job or apply themselves to be the best at a less skilled job get what they get. And the best parts about that organic shift in the work force is that 1) the CEOs and elites won't be able to use it as an excuse to shaft everyone in the middle and 2) with education and training being so freely available we might start seeing new innovations actually coming from the U.S. again, rather than having to import them from Japan, Korea, and China.
Minimum wage increases may be a great concept, and in the short run they may be necessary, but they merely mask a much greater problem that our country has.

[Rapscallion]

What interests me here are the protests against the differentials of the low wage earners getting more, but nothing about the extreme incomes of the people at the top of the same organisations.

Sure, upping the wages of the current minimum wages is one way to go, but how about the incomes of the top layers? Has anyone considered reducing those?

The US seems to be blind to the inequality involved and almost worships those with mega coin.

Rapscallion

[Gravekeeper]

A better question would be: Why are you arguing against your own anecdote?

The whole $15 thing was a small group of protesters from a single industry. The actual minimum wage proposal is $9 with an annual increase to keep up with inflation. While yes, if you adjust for inflation and productivity, the minimum wage should be around $17. But no one has said that's a realistic expectation. Especially given the US political climate and general upper crust assholism.

Additionally, your argument is flawed in regards to the effect on higher wage earners. Raising minimum wage would in fact create a raise in wages for people who were making more than minimum wage before the increase but are considered minimum wage after the increase. Because the value of labour went up. Employers would need to adjust wages to keep those positions competitive with minimum wage positions.

The fact of the matter is the US has been cornholing its work force for decades in pursuit of the almighty dollar. The US is one of the largest and most advance economies in the world. But all of that wealth is concentrated solely at the top. The result is despite being one of the world's largest and most advanced economies, it pays wages worse than countries that have no where near the GDP or labour production of the US.

Your minimum wage is lower than Greece. Greece. A country whose economy is a punchline. Hell, your minimum wage is only 30 cents higher than Slovenia.

[crashhelmet]

And how long should I expect to be worse off than a high school drop out (if they are making as much as me, they will be doing so without the burden of a student debt to go along with it) while I wait for things to adjust?
You will find very few college graduates who agree with the $15 an hour proposal that some labor groups are demanding, because frankly, most of them would agree with me that it is bullshit to punish those who have invested in themselves by raising those who haven't above them.
I support the New Jersey referendum (which may have been forgotten by now, it is several pages back), I think it is exactly how it should be done, a gradual correction that gives the system time to adjust... it is the radical proposals being put forth by labor groups that I oppose.
And on a side note, you're right, college isn't just about making more money... there is a lot of intrinsic value to learning, but learning for learning sake can be done for free online, at community libraries, hell, just by talking to people. Almost anyone who says that they are going to college without expecting a return on their investment is either naive (eg hasn't seen their first bill yet and will gain a motive to get a return on investment or drop out) or lying.

Unfortunately, life isn't always fair.

There are high school drop outs with union jobs as carpenters, electricians, and even delivery drivers that are making almost double than what I do with my degrees and certifications.

The truth of the matter is it has nothing to do with degrees and qualifications. It has to do with elitism. People will always look at a traditionally minimum wage job as below anything a degree is required for.