Patriotism and symbols

[rahmota]

After reading about mysty's exploits in correcting a flag tipper I got to thinking of how people express their patriotism and sometimes get a bit overzealous about it.

This is not to say anythign negative about Mysty or her actions other than her chasing the dude as far as she did was a bit much. True it was criminal vandalism by the most liberal of definitions as well as desecration of a flag but so is wearing it as a t shirt or jeans or a jacket like I've seen. Or using it as a cheap advertising gimmick like recently for president's day as well as the fourth and just about every day at the used car lot.

I mean it is a symbol of this country. People have fought, bled and died for this symbol and more importantly the ideals it stands for. My family has been in the military since before there was a U.S.A. So I am not dissing the people who are willing to give their lives in service to crown and country to quite shakespeare.

I realized I accidentially mispelled patriotism in the thread title can that be fixed Pleasse. Sorry.
But what I am upset about is the people who think that by enforcing or making stupid gestures they are being more patriotic or doing something really really good. Like the whole BS about renaming french fries to "freedom fries". What is the point of that? Did they really think the french would get all affronted and join our war effort and humbly beg our forgiveness by that?

The plethora of uber patriotic songs was a nice but somehow empty feeling/gesture and after hearing them for the bazillionth time I was getting the attitude of yeah ok get over it and move on please. Yes it was very very bad thing and we are invovled in an (illegal) war but can we please get some other songs on the radio?

And those damnable yellow ribbon (and all the other stupid magnetic ribbons) people plastered on their cars. Did the more ribbons you have on your car mean you where more patriotic or a measure of your participation in the war effort? I kid you not before we threw them away we had about 50+ ribbons off of cars that where traded in, that is other than the people who got all bent if we didnt transfer their precious ribbon onto their brand new car. I wonder how many people realize they now have ruined their paint job by leaving those thigns on their vehicle?

I remember hearing about the true sacrifices my grandparents made during WWII. What sacrifices did/has/have anyone in America make in the war on terror? Did we stop driving gas guzzling SUV's that have the same curb weight as a farm tractor? Did anyone consider where their money was going when they bought gasoline or other items in the first place?

Patriotism is more than about empty gestures and hollow words. It is about being dedicated to doing what needs to be done to protect, preserve and defend the ideals of your country, its legal government and the laws thereof. It is shwoing an allegience and identification with those fellows who agree to live under the same laws and authority you do.

Sorry if this is all disjointed and not making sense but patriotism is supposed to mean something. It is the honor and duty and glory that makes a person willing to lay down their lives and sacrifice it all for something greater than themselves. Not the shallow pathetic crud that too many americans are excusing as patriotism.

[Barefootgirl]

DarthRetard posted something interesting about flag-burning, at CS. i hope he won't mind if I paraphrase it a little here; the flag is customarily disposed of by burning. Perhaps some the people who burn the flag are trying to use precisely that near-sacred act as the protest; the things you are doing, about which I am protesting, are desecrating my flag (and by extension my country) more than the physical act of burning this one.

I absolutely loathe the "my country, right or wrong" attitude. If this was the only attitude allowed to prevail, you'd have a totalitarian state. I beleive 100% that one can be a good loyal citizen of one's country, and deeply hate and despise the things that the current administration are doing in the name of said country.

[protege]

I can't stand those damn ribbons either. Do I really need one to show my patriotism? Hell no. I may not support all my country's actions, or even those of the current administration, but I still love my country.

Those stupid ribbons are just "feel good" patriotism. Why should I have to spend cash just to feel good about it? Does having the ribbons somehow make someone more patriotic than someone else? Somehow I doubt it.

People, either don't want to know, or simply don't care about the sacrifices our vets made for our freedom. They bitch and moan about "rights" yet then bitch and moan about how those rights are protected? Are you fucking kidding me? Last time I checked, it was *not* free--we only have those freedoms and liberties because people were willing to give their lives for them.

Somewhat along those lines...if you don't like what the government is doing, vote to change things. That's the only way your voice will be heard. Don't want to vote? Fine. You have no right to bitch about *anything* that's going on.

About the SUVs. I think that people should drive whatever they want. However, if it's costing you $80-100 to fill up, I'm going to laugh at you. You knew how bad the economy of those things are. You watched the gas prices rise. Again, I pay the same per gallon you do...so quit whining.

Part of the problem with any of this...is that Americans are forgetful people. They forget very important things. They bitch and moan about the Patriot Act...but forget why it was enacted in the first place. It was intended to stop money from reaching terrorists. For that, I don't mind filling out a few extra forms at the bank. People bitch and moan about all the scandals involving government officials. Yet, these same people blindly vote them back into office!

[AFPheonix]

True patriotism, like true Christianity or whatever -ism it is you celebrate, is most powerful when you're not overly showy about it, methinks.

[rahmota]

AFP said the following:

True patriotism, like true Christianity or whatever -ism it is you celebrate, is most powerful when you're not overly showy about it, methinks.

:

BINGO! yes that is exactly what I have been trying to explain. You do the most good and the most power by rememberingthe reasons behind the actions, taking the actions that are required to do the most good and not take actions that re overzealous improper or ineffective or otherwise do more harm than good.

Which is one of the thigns I hate about the PATRIOT Act. while there are several good points about it, there are quite a few other bad ones. It opens several doors for abuse and bypasses several constitutional protections that I personally don't feel shoul be bypassed even if we are dealing with the worst scum of the earth. descending to their level to fight them does not do anyone any good. We are supposed to be the good guys who play by the rules and have allthe honor decency and all that jazz.

Protege: About the american people in general. I'll add another adjective to describe american society :lazy. We get into a condition or a path that is comfortable and easy and if we have to change or do somethign outside that comfort zone then we resist. I'm guilty of it somewhat as is everyone else. People would rather continue to gripe about the freeway being crowded, suvs that cost an arm and a leg to operate, inneffective government and corporate pillaging than to do the actions that are needed to correct thes problems. Conspicuous consumpton to the point where people drown themselves in debt is not only considered a good thing, but after 9/11 it was endorsed by King Bush as the patriotic thign to do. Now that is just plain messed up wrong.

And as for the flag burning barefootgirl/darthretard that is an ineresting idea. I'm not sure everyone who burns the flag thinks that deeply about it though.

And yeah the local VFW does a flag retiring ceremony every memorial day around here. That is the official and proper way to dispose of a flag.

Oh and I forgot to say a great big thank you to the super moderator who fixed my big goof up on the thread title. Thank you very much.

[AFPheonix]

I will agree with you Rahmota that the Patriot Act does need to be revisited. A lot of it was necessary, but there's also way too many elements of Big Brother in there that I find disturbing.

As far as gas consumption goes, part of this nation's problem really is poor urban planning. Those of us who live in the boonies can't really do anything about not getting around driving 10 or more miles to get anywhere, but there's no reason why more suburban areas can't be designed in such a way that people could walk to stores or other places that they need to go, instead of driving there.

[rahmota]

Yeah a lot of the Domestic spying tactics the Patriot approved of and the freedom from publically verifiable oversight the government has are major problems I have with the Patriot act. When a government begins to worry about its own citizens then there probably should be a reason for the citizens to worry about their government. A lot of the border security stuff and flight security controls I have utterly no problem with. Even having one agency set up to supposedly handle all of the domestic security stuff is not a bad idea, at least in theory. I just wish it wasnt thrown together like a plate of spaghetti dropped on the floor.

What is even scarier in my home state is the following:The Ohio Patriot Act (SB 9) is an act passed in the U.S. state of Ohio. The act drastically expands the powers of law enforcement, giving police and other officials sweeping authority, including the power to arrest people in public areas who will not give their name, address, and date of birth, even if they have not committed a crime. Supporters of the bill claim it will help fight terrorism. Opponents of the bill say it will violate important civil liberties, such as the right to privacy and free expression.

On October 15, 2005, the amended bill passed the Ohio House of Representatives in a 69-23 vote. It was sent to the Ohio Senate to approve amendments made by the House, and the Senate passed the bill by a vote of 29-2. It was sent to Governor Bob Taft, who signed the bill into law.

The bolding is mine. Which just shows how far people who are scared will go to trade freedom for security.

I'll agree that urban planning could be handled a lot better when it comes to getting rid of the big box superstores and malls and other sprawling paved lots and going back to a more neighborhood store. But what I wonder about would people actually take the time to walk to one even if they could? Walking places a strain on people to actually take the initiative and get up and do something. Heck even if they lived right next door some people would probably still not walk. Society would have to make such radical and severe changes to do that it would be on the brink of collapse.

And I know what you mean about living in the country. I live 6 miles from the nearest gas station. 11 miles form the nearest library and 15 miles from the nearest mcdonalds, walmart or other big store like that and 23 miles form the nearest mall. Getting anywhere involves a bit of a drive.

[protege]

I'll agree that urban planning could be handled a lot better when it comes to getting rid of the big box superstores and malls and other sprawling paved lots and going back to a more neighborhood store.

That'll probably never happen. People here see price as being more important than quality. I, for one, *hate* going into some of the big-box stores, especially Walmart. It's not so much the redneck trash (at least here) that shops there...but simply because if I need to ask about a product, I'm SOL. I've been told quite a few times that "I don't know." I'm all for lower prices, but if I need expertise, I'd rather pay a bit more for it. In that case, the smaller store will get my business.

Not far from me is a smaller hardware store, Daniel's Discount. This place has been around seemingly forever. (Rumor also has it that Christopher Columbus was one of their customers ) Daniel's survived the big-box era simply because their employees know their stuff. They also do not have a fancy store--it's been pretty much the same inside for the past 30 years. However, I've always been told that if you can't find something there, it simply doesn't exist. Sure, prices are higher, but I don't care if they can help me out.

[rahmota]

Protege: True I agree that without some sort of force or other outside motivation things wont change like that. But I can dream can't I? Country boy that I am.

(PS: I live in a trailer on my own 64 acre farm...Just a slight point that the phrase trailer trash is one I find....annoying, you can find trashy people in a box under the freeway or a multibillion dollar mansion. Not that you are trying to be insulting I know but its just kinda not one of my favorite phrases to hear.)

Yeah I usually try to shop a local store as much as I can. Sometimes though the folks working there arnt much better than at Lowe's or Wallyland. I guess it just depends on the individual person and how much care they want to put into their work.

[protege]

I was always told that there was a difference between people who live in trailers....and the trash. I apologize if I offended you--that wasn't my intention. I went back and edited the post.

[rahmota]

Protege: Hey I understand. I probably over reacted and am sorry about that. Its just a sensitive phrase with me as I have had it bandied about in my direction by people who did mean it as offensively as possible. I understand that there are people who make the stereotype, but then there are those who don't. But thats with all the stereotypes.

On the related subject. I fly a pirate flag over my trailer. I have a rebel flack bumpersticker on my truck. Not the american flag because I don't really have the flag pole to fly it properly in my opinion and using the american flag as a bumper sticker or mere decoration like that is disrespectful.As identification or in an official capacity is somethign else entirely. As a result a person who is no longer welcome on my property called me trailer trash because only "they" wouldn't fly the american flag.

I also self identify as a redneck. But in a good way. I like my pickup, I love my hound dogs, come on my property without permission and you're as likely to get a shotgun up your nose as not, I have an accent. I admit I have a lot of the stereotypical redneck behaviors and attitudes. I also ahve been around the block enough and opened my mind enough that I don't have many of the less polite or savory aspects of redneck or hillbilly. I dont know how to explain it. But I can understand and either laugh with or ignore the redneck comments. Because there are some people who are real rednecks.

The phrase Trailer Trash is just two words but those two words get kinda under my skin a bit. and really offended isnt even the really best descriptive for it. More of an irked or irritated reaction.

So thanks for goign to the trouble of editing your post. I probably shouldnt be that sensitive about it and need to get over it as you dont know me other than a screen name and what I tell you. I am sorry for the disturbance and do appreciate your oing out of your way to edit your post. Thank you.

[protege]

It's no problem

BTW, my borough told Walmart to get the hell out a few years back. They wanted to put in a store, but we didn't want the noise/crime/traffic, and voted it down. The borough has always been a sleepy little town, and we like it that way That store was later put in the next borough over, and has caused a few problems. Several people have been robbed in the parking lot, and there's been at least one carjacking. I'm glad that store isn't here--the other borough can *have* it

Getting back on topic here, I don't have an American flag as of yet. Even though I moved a few months back, I still don't have one. Too many more important things to get first. I'd like one for Flag Day, Memorial Day, Veterans Day, etc. Several relatives were in the military; great-grandpa was in the US Calvary, and chased Pancho Villa all over Mexico; Grandpa fought in WWII (Battle of the Bulge); Dad was in Vietnam. Anyway, flying the flag on those days is to honor them.

[rahmota]

Ok cool.

Sounds like a good plan. One of my friends was in the military and has an excellent flagpole set up I'd like to put in here. He has the official military style flagpole with the american flag in the middle highest, the state flag on one side and the flag of his old unit on the other. Including spotlights and all for those times.

And yeah I know what you mean about the family history. We have a fine collection of triangle folded flags and shadowboxs in my family too.